Quran vs Bible

[WittyBoy]

Peace be upon who follows guidance

Do they not consider the Qur-an (with care)? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy.

Contradictions and Inconsistencies in Quran and Bible

One member - believes in Bible - has to write a contradiction he found out or knew in Quran. At the same time, I'll address to him a contradiction i found out or knew in Bible. Each post is supposed to consist of two parts, the first part solves the contradiction claimed by the other member, the second part proves - by evidences - the contradiction in the other member's book.

I'm waiting for the first contradiction claimed (by a member believes in Bible) that it exists in Quran.

[diotima64]

Wittyboy, your trick won´t work.

Note: WE CHRISTIANS DO NOT, repeat NOT venerate the bible. We KNOW it´s only a book.

YOU lot otoh are in deeeeeeep sh!t, since the koran is OBVIOUSLY a) manmade b) in violation of copyright and c) plain dumb, yet you claim it´s divine. Tough titties!

[yeezevee]

Wittyboy, your trick won´t work.

Note: WE CHRISTIANS DO NOT, repeat NOT venerate the bible. We KNOW it´s only a book.

YOU lot otoh are in deeeeeeep sh!t, since the koran is OBVIOUSLY a) manmade b) in violation of copyright and c) plain dumb, yet you claim it´s divine. Tough titties!

i think this is a very good thread Wittyboy should explore more write stuff from bible.. He should read NT and OT.. I will explain him what it says and why is says..,

[WittyBoy]

Wittyboy, your trick won´t work.

Note: WE CHRISTIANS DO NOT, repeat NOT venerate the bible. We KNOW it´s only a book.

No, man. Bible isn't "only a book", It's the foundation of your Christianity, if it contains even one contradiction, then your Christianity is nothing, as it depends on "a book" contradicts itself, not a holy book. It's your trick which won't work at all. Accept the challenge, otherwise let others take your place.

koran is OBVIOUSLY a) manmade b) in violation of copyright and c) plain dumb, yet you claim it´s divine

No no no, you will be exempted from this debate, you have to be believe in Bible to start argue against Quran, but unfortunately, you don't venerate Bible and consider it "only a book".

[WittyBoy]

i think this is a very good thread Wittyboy should explore more write stuff from bible.. He should read NT and OT.. I will explain him what it says and why is says..,

OK, i hope you bring the first contradiction in Quran, and start this discussion.

[sturncoat]

Let's be clear the Bible never claims to be The Word of God.It is instead an inspired expression of the Word of God.The writers "saw" apicture of the word of God and put it in words.
It also states that the Word of God is a person who is God himself.


This prevents a situation I call the "who is greater paradox"


10:37 And it was not [possible] for this Qur'an to be produced by other than Allah, but [it is] a confirmation of what was before it and a detailed explanation of the [former] Scripture, about which there is no doubt, from the Lord of the worlds.

15:9 Behold, it is we ourselves have bestowed from on high, step by step, this reminder: and, behold, it is we who shall truly guard it [from all corruption]


The verses are a promise by Allah himself to creation.

This promise cannot be broken by him because it show his lack of Omniciency.
This means at all times the Quran is greater than Allah.

The second thing since humanity has the Quran as the word of God ,we can read it and prepare for day of judgement where humanity eg led by me and others will ridicule Allah's narrow thinking.

[diotima64]

No, man. Bible isn't "only a book", It's the foundation of your Christianity, if it contains even one contradiction, then your Christianity is nothing, as it depends on "a book" contradicts itself, not a holy book. It's your trick which won't work at all.

LOL - do go on showing us your utter ignorance of Christianity, please.

[WittyBoy]

Let's be clear the Bible never claims to be The Word of God.It is instead an inspired expression of the Word of God.The writers "saw" apicture of the word of God and put it in words.

But the Christianity relays on this inspired expression of the word of God which is full of errors and contradictions, when God sent a message and you express it wrong, you can't say this is still the message of God. Can you see now the purpose of Quran?

10:37 And it was not [possible] for this Qur'an to be produced by other than Allah, but [it is] a confirmation of what was before it and a detailed explanation of the [former] Scripture, about which there is no doubt, from the Lord of the worlds.

15:9 Behold, it is we ourselves have bestowed from on high, step by step, this reminder: and, behold, it is we who shall truly guard it [from all corruption]


The verses are a promise by Allah himself to creation.

This promise cannot be broken by him because it show his lack of Omniciency.

The first verse indicates that Quran confirms what Allah has sent before, and Allah never sent what this Bible you have now. There are statements added, statement deleted, and others altered.

The second verse talks about only Quran, you can notice that easily when you read it in the context,

{6}They say: "O thou to whom the Message is being revealed! Truly thou art mad (or possessed)!
{7}"Why bringest thou not angels to us if it be that thou hast the Truth?"

{8} We send not the angels down except for just cause: if they came (to the ungodly), behold! no respite would they have!

{9}We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).

[Mashhood]

A/A

diotima64

Note: WE CHRISTIANS DO NOT, repeat NOT venerate the bible. We KNOW it´s only a book.

So do you disagree with Paul when he says that all scripture is inspired by God? (2 Tim 3) I think. Unless you have an alternative interpretation of that text.

Thanks

Mashhood

[WittyBoy]

Bible Problem # 1

Luke 3:21,22
21When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened 22and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."

We understand from this verse that:
1- God(Almighty) exists in heaven.
2- The Holy Spirit is descending in a shape of dove.
3- Jesus is praying to God.

How can a sane person in the world believe that these three are one? Who has created this man? To whom this man was praying? Who has sent the Holy Spirit? According to this verse, He was God(Almighty), so how can the Holy spirit and Jesus be Him(Almighty)?!!!!!! even If they and God aren't one thing, but God gave them this position, then God is still a competent over them, and not the same as them.

This is a big lie not a "inspired expression of the word of God".

Another Question:

How can you christian put God(Almighty) in the picture of a person? The disaster is that this picture origanlly is the picture of a pagan god named "Sarapis". (Reference)

Sarapis

Not only that, but you gave him a name derived from a name of another pagan god named "Zeus"; the roman pagan god which Sarapis was derived from to unify the god of Egyptians and Romans. (Reference)

Zeus

Is it still "inspired expression of the word of God"??

What is the matter with you? How judge ye? [al-Qalam]

[crazymonkie_]

A/A

diotima64

Note: WE CHRISTIANS DO NOT, repeat NOT venerate the bible. We KNOW it´s only a book.

So do you disagree with Paul when he says that all scripture is inspired by God? (2 Tim 3) I think. Unless you have an alternative interpretation of that text.

Thanks

Mashhood

What is it about Muslims not getting that "inspired by" and "dictated from" are very different things?

The movie 300 is INSPIRED BY the Battle of Thermopolaye. It's got inconsistencies and errors galore, yet is BASED ON Herodotus' text. Get it yet kids?

[Mashhood]

A/A

Ahh ok, so when Paul says that all scripture is inspired by God, he accepted that it contains errors and mistakes?
So a faulty but inspired by god, text should be used for doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction?

Mashhood

[crazymonkie_]

Probably. It's up for interpretation, but really it's mostly been Protestants- and even then only a few- who have insisted on the Bible being the literal and 100% true word of god.

A faulty text should and can be used- if only for the reason WHY it's faulty.

It's faulty because the books in the Bible are mediated by human beings. Humans, being prone to error (it's impossible not to make errors) make mistakes, and because of this, the Bible is NOT a perfect word-for-word dictation. It can be used for instruction because it points to a higher reality, to a world where there are no errors.... but makes no claim that it IS error-free.

It's like how many Christian churches- Orthodox and RCC- have non-canonical books that they still quote heavily from. They know they're inaccurate; they know they're not "true" in the sense that you're thinking, in the sense that the Quran says it's true. It doesn't matter. What matters is the truths they point to. The point is not a set of perfect books (except for some Protestant sects). The point are the messages behind the books.

[Wootah]

I'll play WittyBoy. Perhaps move it to the debate room?

You raise the issue of the Trinity.

How can a sane person in the world believe that these three are one? Who has created this man? To whom this man was praying? Who has sent the Holy Spirit? According to this verse, He was God(Almighty), so how can the Holy spirit and Jesus be Him(Almighty)?!!!!!! even If they and God aren't one thing, but God gave them this position, then God is still a competent over them, and not the same as them.

As a sane person I don't believe all three are one initially. As a sane person the story of Jesus in the Bible compels me to this view.The evidence that is true is contained in my 3 points below. Please address them.

1) No one that I know that is a Christian would rationally accept the Trinity without the evidence in the Bible. I base my belief in the Trinity of God on the evidence I have that the Bible is the word of God and as such the concept of the Trinity must be the case. Now this is something that we will discuss together, you and I, in this thread. But for Jesus death to pay for our sins to an infinite God then that death must pay an infinite amount. Therefore only God can pay that amount. Therefore Jesus is God. As for the Holy Spirit there is numerous references to the Holy Spirit, specifically from Jesus and I would suggest to you that the voice in your head telling you to listen might just be the Holy Spirit.

2) Further proof that God is a Trinity is that pantheonism leads to superstition and Islamic absolute monotheism to ignorance. Whereas a Trinitiarian view of God is 'just right'. I don't see anything in the Trinitarian view of God that leads a person or culture to disaster in reality. Whereas the absolute monotheism of Allah has wrecked your country, your mind and your people and you are so enslaved to it that you actually defend it rather than be free from it.

3) The Trinitarian view of God is a source of mystery that is probably the source of all meditational value. Pondering on it provides massive insights into love. Try it, you will like it. Your family and friends won't mind Wittyboy because they love you for you and won't disown you just because you stopped being a Muslim for a day right?

Update: WittyBoy I read your post again. I don't see anything in it that is a contradiction. Do you understand, logically speaking, what a contradiction is? At best you are saying you don't understand the concept of the Trinity. If you agree that you don't understand it then I would say welcome to the club. It would be preferred that you respected language and stopped calling it a contradiction or quite quickly demonstrated how it is a contradiction.

[sturncoat]

Once again allow me to use Mr.Sina illustration of inspiration.When an painting artist is inspired by whatever,
he paints.
The people behind the bible saw/felt the Word of God(Who is God The Son) under the Holy Spirit
it this inspired them and they produced the bible.



God is a Being (state of Consciousness).He is a Plane which can be very difficult to understand and interact with.But just as there is the requirement to be
able to determine the characteristic/properties of a certain point in space you require 3 points.Its the same concept with the Trinity,God (this Plane) you will
have a difficulty in understanding Him e.g How He's able to be a perfect judge,perfect in Mercy and Grace.

Remember Allah(SWT) is most merciful,most gracious.That means when it comes to Al Qiyamah.It will be impossible to send people to hell.

Because He cannot loose his traits/titles for the sake of creation.

Mercy-requires instead of getting the punishment you deserve ,you get much less or none at all.
Grace-requires you show favour to your friends and foes by rewarding them regardless whether they require it or not.

Please understand.
Christians pray to One person(God The Father/Master Planner) but worship the Three.

On subject of Jesus praying


It's important to get the basics of Jesus.He is God the Son with a soul and Body.If He did not pray to the Father it would be difficult for Him to prove He is human something that is essential to be able to show there can be interaction with the Infinite One.You see Allah(SWT) can never be fit to Judge the world.You have never had a judge who is credible and is not following the same law he is using to judge. Jesus says,He has come to fulfill the law.So that He can later be declared fit to judge.Allah(SWT) can never be fit to be a perfect judge.

Remember the words uttered by cops,"Everything ,you say shall be used against you".At Al qiyamah(day of judgment) I will show with relevant historical facts that the Quran and Sunnah was too idealistic to work.You cannot practice the concepts therein even in Kingdom of saudi arabia,Somalia or Afghanistan.Allah(SWT) has played all his cards.


On the subject of comparing images of Zeus and Jesus.Understand this basic concept.

Creation cannot be creators .We are imitators and copiers.Think of flying ,we never really created the plane we just copied birds.Human beings have not created anything they have simply copied God.Only God is One(Original).
1.Jesus who is God can demonstrate The persons behind the image and portrayal actually copied Him.
2.On the flipside he can show that since He needs to show he is human he did not want to re-invent the wheel.



It's difficult to say Muslims worship Allah(swt) when in fact you worship Muhammad too.

I know ,Witty boy you are driven by an inclination to pray to one person.

[WittyBoy]

As a sane person I don't believe all three are one initially. As a sane person the story of Jesus in the Bible compels me to this view.The evidence that is true is contained in my 3 points below. Please address them.

1) No one that I know that is a Christian would rationally accept the Trinity without the evidence in the Bible. I base my belief in the Trinity of God on the evidence I have that the Bible is the word of God and as such the concept of the Trinity must be the case. Now this is something that we will discuss together, you and I, in this thread.

Yes we Muslims believe in some unseen things because we believe that Quran is true, but the most important fact which is the base of our faith can't be illogical, it's very simple to be grasped; "No god but Allah".

For Christians, You have beliefs based on a fact, you can't prove this fact right according to these beliefs, but you have to prove this base right first, and then build anything else.

But for Jesus death to pay for our sins to an infinite God then that death must pay an infinite amount. Therefore only God can pay that amount. Therefore Jesus is God.

But why should have Jesus payed for your sins? In Islam, everyone is responsible for his deeds. Another objection, Jesus death wasn't necessary at all, because God already forgives one's sins if he simply repents to Him.

As for the Holy Spirit there is numerous references to the Holy Spirit, specifically from Jesus and I would suggest to you that the voice in your head telling you to listen might just be the Holy Spirit.

Even if that happened, that's because He is an angle, not god.

2) Further proof that God is a Trinity is that pantheonism leads to superstition and Islamic absolute monotheism to ignorance. Whereas a Trinitiarian view of God is 'just right'. I don't see anything in the Trinitarian view of God that leads a person or culture to disaster in reality. Whereas the absolute monotheism of Allah has wrecked your country, your mind and your people and you are so enslaved to it that you actually defend it rather than be free from it.

Given one is a successful person and very clever in his position, if this one converted to Islam, how will that affect his success? Does Islam prevents sciences, cooperation, working hard, honesty, and all the reasons for success? Being a Muslim isn't the point, because Muslims too led the world in all fields though they applied Islam word by word, letter by letter, tens times more than now. Read this page.

3) The Trinitarian view of God is a source of mystery that is probably the source of all meditational value. Pondering on it provides massive insights into love. Try it, you will like it.

Feeling that you are on the right path is more beautiful and convenient, and you can't base your destiny on a mysterious thing.

Your family and friends won't mind Wittyboy because they love you for you and won't disown you just because you stopped being a Muslim for a day right?

I don't know what would have been their reaction, but in the case of trinity, if you really love your God, you should do what He likes, He won't never like you associating with Him two other entities and try all ways to prove to yourself that they are one.

Update: WittyBoy I read your post again. I don't see anything in it that is a contradiction. Do you understand, logically speaking, what a contradiction is? At best you are saying you don't understand the concept of the Trinity. If you agree that you don't understand it then I would say welcome to the club. It would be preferred that you respected language and stopped calling it a contradiction or quite quickly demonstrated how it is a contradiction.

You are right, as long as we still discuss it, I'll call it a problem, consider i have a problem in understaing trinity, and you help me solve it.

[Wootah]

But why should have Jesus payed for your sins? In Islam, everyone is responsible for his deeds. Another objection, Jesus death wasn't necessary at all, because God already forgives one's sins if he simply repents to Him.

You say you are responsible for your deeds but you and I know that you are not good enough or holy enough to earn a place in Heaven by your deeds. And then you will say Allah is merciful. But what you really mean is that Allah is arbitrary and willful and that Allah will pick and choose who goes to his paradise. If he is Merciful then why not let everyone go to paradise? If you relax your mind and allow yourself to think it through there are definite issues with a Allah as a god of will that should disturb you.

You can't simply put on a dirty cloak and pretend it is clean and nor will God. God is actually in reality not willing to accept evil. You are evil (as am I) and you won't be good enough for heaven. So unless we are made clean by God then we will not be acceptable to God. Jesus is quite essential to your salvation.

Even if that happened, that's because He is an angle, not god.

Perhaps. And yet God is talking to you. Jesus loves you.

Given one is a successful person and very clever in his position, if this one converted to Islam, how will that affect his success? Does Islam prevents sciences, cooperation, working hard, honesty, and all the reasons for success? Being a Muslim isn't the point, because Muslims too led the world in all fields though they applied Islam word by word, letter by letter, tens times more than now. Read this page.

There is no golden age WittyBoy that isn't a lie by your religion. Your religion brutally raped the known world and claimed the science and invention that was occurring in those societies. It leaves you mentally scarred as you look at the reality now and blame the West and Zionism and external forces for your current situation when the truth is that you have a set of values based upon a religion and a view of God that causes misery and suffering.

I can specifically point you to Islamic philosophers and a cultural attitude that deny science and rational laws. Because you believe that God is a God of will then what point is there in studying the world. That view of reality is pervasive in Islamic cultures throughout history and general though. But now in this age you cannot avert your eyes from the truth that God is a God of word and when we trust God and go forth and study and learn from the world we can learn more about God. So your religion and culture is morphing to attempt to stay relevant. It is just the devil caught in the sunlight and trying to still keep his slaves. I highly recommend leaving the religion.

Feeling that you are on the right path is more beautiful and convenient, and you can't base your destiny on a mysterious thing.

Like I said. Try it you will like it. God is a God of love and love is relational. Imagine Do unto others as you would have them do unto you on a celestial level. Anyway, I find a lot of insights like this available from thinking on God.

You are right, as long as we still discuss it, I'll call it a problem, consider i have a problem in understaing trinity, and you help me solve it.

Ultimately, I just read the Bible. Word for word from Jesus, you just read him speaking. try the book of Matthew and the beatitudes. He is just to wise, to strong, to real. I know that sounds like words but you have to start somewhere. Perhaps start here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of ... odigal_Son
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... rsion=NIV;

[sturncoat]

Yes we Muslims believe in some unseen things because we believe that Quran is true, but the most important fact which is the base of our faith can't be illogical, it's very simple to be grasped; "No god but Allah".

For Christians, You have beliefs based on a fact, you can't prove this fact right according to these beliefs, but you have to prove this base right first, and then build anything else.




The fundamental message of the bible unlike the Quran has nothing you can disaprove easily i.e You cannot come up with a test to show adequately that
The Essence of God cannot have a Son.But the Quran ,all the basic principles right from the concept level can be easily be proved to be not true or are generally inadequate.


Cases in point,
1.The Quran was sent to highlight amd correct earlier scriptures such as Injil etc.
Where is this Injil?for comparison sake.
Can medieval Arabic correct greek?The language for logic,philosophy and science.



2.Muhammad was the Final prophet.
First of all ,God rarely uses superlatives in speech.Secondly,the Ali Sina's,the Salman Rushdie's of this world are anti islamic prophets (false prophets).It should be practical for Allah(SWT) to use
similar genre of people.





But why should have Jesus payed for your sins? In Islam, everyone is responsible for his deeds. Another objection, Jesus death wasn't necessary at all, because God already forgives one's sins if he simply repents to Him.

From this you realise to be a Muslim rather than work with facts ,you will be working with assumptions.


1,Assumption that Jews and Christians before got it wrong.That means the people rescued from Egypt ,those who witnessed glorius miracles chose a different path.This means you WittyBoy just like other muslims/muslimahs, have most probably you
have not experienced the supernatural/paranormal
2.Assumption that Allah(SWT) is our ruler and deserves outrightly to be worshipped.
The bible takes a different approach,As a Creator you don't assume a right to govern the creation or to be worhipped.

This is the reason for heaven.Here God has a right to govern you and you to worship.Because He has saved you from earth.


3.Assumption that you will be forgiven by God for sins.
Once again the bible takes a worst case scenario approach,That,repentance and forgiveness is not a casual matter.Sin must be punished.Al Shaytan,Adam and Eve despite commiting one sin each were never forgiven.

4.Assumption that Jesus never died.When it is clear from Jewish,Roman and christian literature that He died.The two or so Ayats from the Quran did not expound clearly why,how,where he was bodily taken to heaven.


5.The assumption done by the muslims and muslimahs that people will die and be resurrected automatically to face paradise or hell.

Can God resurrect you?

Hint:God cannot do things twice.He is perfect in all His ways.That includes creating you.Can He therefore recreate you once your flesh has succumbed?



6.Assumption that God uses deen/religion.Religion a set of belief based on culture.
Islam is not distinct from other cultural set ups.You pray in Arabic,you plan to visit Mecca as a shrine.What makes this devoid of being arabic culture.
The bible avoids the word like plague.


7.Assumption that Islam is a Faith while clearly it is a hope.

The only assumption christians meanwhile have made is God is love.


To be able to understand God and Trinity you must overcome the habit of working with assumptions and taking them as faith.

Looking forward to hearing from you witty boy.

[WittyBoy]

Bible Problem # 2
God Mercy or Jesus Ransom

Remember Allah(SWT) is most merciful,most gracious.That means when it comes to Al Qiyamah.It will be impossible to send people to hell. Because He cannot loose his traits/titles for the sake of creation.

But losing his son for the sake of creation is OK?!becoming a curse for the sake of creation is OK? let his son be beaten, slapped, and letting people spit on his face is OK?

{89} Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

{90} As if the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin.

{91} That they should invoke a son for (Allah) Most Gracious.

{92} For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.

{93} Not one of the beings in the heavens and the earth but must come to (Allah) Most Gracious as a servant.

Mercy-requires instead of getting the punishment you deserve ,you get much less or none at all.

Allah put a very merciful rules doesn't exist even in Christianity, I'd like to quote something i wrote before:

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “There are no two Muslims who meet and shake hands with one another, but they will be forgiven before they part.” Narrated by Abu Dawood (5212); classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood.

What is this? Allah is looking for anything good in your deeds to forgive you, what's this great effort i do when i shake hand a Muslim? Isn't it a mercy from Allah?

Another Example:

reported by Ali(Allah be pleased with him)that Rasulullah(Peace be upon him) said, ‘When a Muslim visits his sick Muslim brother in the morning, seventy thousand angels make dua for his forgiveness till the evening. And when he visits him in the evening, seventy thousand angels make dua for his forgiveness till the morning, and he will be granted a garden for it in Jannah.’ (Timidhi, Abu Dawood)

seventy thousand angels pray for you till the evening/morning just because you visited a sick? Is it a mercy?

Do you know what's the GREAT deed you can do and protect you from hell? Give a half of a date in charity!!! and the prophet add if you don't have this half of date, say a good saying to a Muslim! It's not my own sayings,

And so, any (each one) of you should save himself from the fire even by giving half of a date-fruit (in charity). And if you do not find a half date-fruit, then (you can do it through saying) a good pleasant word (to your brethren).[Bukhari 24:494]

Is it a mercy??

The Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.s.) said: “To smile in the company of your brother is charity. To command to do good deeds and to prevent others from doing evil is charity. To guide a person in a place where he can not get astray is charity. To guide a person with defective vision is charity for you. To remove troublesome things like thorns and bones from the road is charity. To pour water from your jug into the jug of your brother is charity.” [Al-Tirmizi]

Do you know that you find mercy even in recording your deeds?

On the authority of Ibn Abbas (may Allah be pleased with them both), from the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), among the sayings he related from his Lord (glorified and exalted be He) is that He said:
"Allah has written down the good deeds and the bad ones." Then He explained it [by saying that]
1- "he who has intended a good deed and has not done it, Allah writes it down with Himself as a full good deed,(he just thought of doing it, and Allah recorded it as a full good deed)
2- but if he has intended it and has done it, Allah writes it down with Himself as from ten good deeds to seven hundred times, or many times over. (can you see, you may do a good deed, and Allah record it 7000 good deed or more)

3- But if he has intended a bad deed and has not done it, Allah writes it down with Himself as a full good deed, (You did nothing, but take a reward just because you have thought of a sin and didn't do it)

4- but if he has intended it and has done it, Allah writes it down as one bad deed."
[Bukhari and Muslim.]

What about what already has been recorded??

Unless he repents, believes and works righteous deeds, for Allah will change the evil of such persons into good, and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.[Al Furqan:70]

O, My Lord, Indeed you are the Most Merciful.

Read this Qudsi hadith

On the authority of Anas (may Allah be pleased with him), who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) say:
"Allah the Almighty said:
'O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as it.'"

[At-Tirmidhi (also by Ahmad ibn Hanbal). Its chain of authorities is sound(sahih).]

and after all of that, The mercy of Allah -in the day of judgment- will be times over that.

"Salman reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Verily, Allah created, on the same very day when He created the heavens and the earth, one hundred parts of mercy. Every part of mercy is coextensive with the space between the heavens. and the earth and He out of this mercy endowed one part to the earth and it is because of this that the mother shows affection to her child and even the beasts and birds show kindness to one another and when there would be the Day of Resurrection, Allah would make full (use of Mercy). [Muslim, The Book Pertaining to Repentance and Exhortation to Repentance, Book 037, Number 6634]"

Do you know that the reward of some dua(saying) is that Allah forgives all your sins(only by some words)?

Finally, i think you have known these verses but you forgot them

“And never give up hope of Allah's Mercy. Certainly, no one despairs of Allah's Mercy, except the people who disbelieve.” [Yusuf: 87]

“And whosoever does evil or wrongs himself but afterwards seeks Allah's forgiveness, he will find Allah Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” [an-Nisa: 110]

"When My servants ask thee concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them): I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth on Me: Let them also, with a will, Listen to My call, and believe in Me: That they may walk in the right way. [al-Baqarah:186]"

God(Almighty) doesn't need to have a son and let him die humiliated, beaten, and naked to forgive people (may Allah forgive me for saying that)

Please understand.
Christians pray to One person(God The Father/Master Planner) but worship the Three.

No, thanks. I pray to whom can help me not whom can't do noting by himself,

John 5:30
By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

For that Allah said:

{56} Say: "Call on those - besides Him - whom ye fancy: they have neither the power to remove your troubles from you nor to change them."

{15} O People of the Book! there hath come to you Our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary): There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book.

{16} Wherewith Allah guideth all who seek His good pleasure to ways of peace and safety, and leadeth them out of darkness, by His Will, unto the light, guideth them to a Path that is Straight.

{17} In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Al-Masih the son of Maryam. Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His Will were to destroy Al-Masih the son of Maryam, his mother, and all, everyone that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things."

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Not only illogical but useless too

Genesis 3
16 To the woman he said,“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children.Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”
17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’
“Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life. 18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field.

Hebrews 9
12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

How did Jesus pay for your sins and you are still being punished till now? The woman still feels pain in childbearing and the man still eats by toil. I don't know how childbearing and working are punishments. Secondly, from when sins lead to death? How about God being merciful and forgiving:

Daniel 9 :
The Lord our God is merciful and forgiving, even though we have rebelled against him;

The third point:

Ezekiel 18
21 “But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. 22 None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live.

According to Bible, forgiveness is very simple, it doesn't required the Jesus death. People doesn't need this ransom at all.

[Wootah]

WittyBoy - we still haven't worked out what is problem #1. But I do tend to agree with you that we should keep moving on. I would however still appreciate you addressing these issues below.

* Did you read the story of the prodigal son? What did you think it was about?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... rsion=NIV;

Wittyboy as you read that story please compare and contrast how Allah instructs a Muslim to react when someone becomes an apostate with how God asks Christians to act.

* I also wanted to hear your response to this.

You can't simply put on a dirty cloak and pretend it is clean and nor will God. God is actually in reality not willing to accept evil. You are evil (as am I) and you won't be good enough for heaven. So unless we are made clean by God then we will not be acceptable to God. Jesus is quite essential to your salvation.

Do you understand that God being merciful simply isn't enough because if God accepts good and evil what does that mean about God?