You mention some verses that have "say:" at the beginning. Why did "say:" have to be added?? You know that Muhammad didn't recite the leading "say:" when he recited the Sura as that would have sounded silly. So this is a little twist added later to cover for the fact that Muhammad often forgot that Allah was supposed to be speaking and instead it clearly sounds like it's Muhammad speaking. Just like 63:4. That's clearly Muhammad as well. Why can't you see this??? It's right in front of your face.
orange jews for breakfast and 20 oz he brews at night
You mention some verses that have "say:" at the beginning. Why did "say:" have to be added?? You know that Muhammad didn't recite the leading "say:" when he recited the Sura as that would have sounded silly. So this is a little twist added later to cover for the fact that Muhammad often forgot that Allah was supposed to be speaking and instead it clearly sounds like it's Muhammad speaking. Just like 63:4. That's clearly Muhammad as well. Why can't you see this??? It's right in front of your face.
That is indeed a serious problem when people read single verse and try to gain some meaning out of it., And that is the reason many times I say in ffi That "Quran should be read 7 to 8 verses (or More) together as a paragraph" to make any sense out of it.,
WittyBoy Yes, that's right, but after how much time? again, Note that Ali has traveled from Madina to Yemen, and we don't know when this incident happened after his arrival.............Nothing happened, i just don't want you to build an argument based on one possibility when there are another possibilities, especially when your possibility never existed in Islam, and you want to assign it to Islam by force, Is it the morality you know? If you want to know the Islamic morality open The book of Good Manners in Sahih al-Bukhari for example, try to read by yourself even once.
Mr Witty you lost here, I am glad you are not a lawyer. By admitting this hadith to be true you shot yourself in the foot and Ali and Islam.
BTW, i don't see these words, you have to get new arguments or keep silent.
SILUNS!!!!!
EENFEEDEL!!!
I KEEL U 2 DETH !!!!!!!!!!!
HASSAN CHOP!!!!!
orange jews for breakfast and 20 oz he brews at night
You mention some verses that have "say:" at the beginning. Why did "say:" have to be added?? You know that Muhammad didn't recite the leading "say:" when he recited the Sura as that would have sounded silly. So this is a little twist added later to cover for the fact that Muhammad often forgot that Allah was supposed to be speaking and instead it clearly sounds like it's Muhammad speaking. Just like 63:4. That's clearly Muhammad as well. Why can't you see this??? It's right in front of your face.
That is indeed a serious problem when people read single verse and try to gain some meaning out of it., And that is the reason many times I say in ffi That "Quran should be read 7 to 8 verses (or More) together as a paragraph" to make any sense out of it.,
OK, so what should I think?
orange jews for breakfast and 20 oz he brews at night
The Cat wrote:If the king would be Allah... The message would be the Quran, only certified (revelation AFTER revelation) through... JIBRIL The messenger is solely the rightful carrier of the message, his person is without much importance. The divine part of the message MUST be assured by JIBRIL, not Muhammad. The angel IS the divine messenger, not Muhammad. Jibril in human terms is acting like the royal seal on the message. Without the seal, the messenger himself is but a lunatic...
So 'Obey allah and His messenger' means: you'll obey Allah while following the -sealed- message (NOT the messenger as a person).
No hadith has this royal seal that ONLY Jibril can represents. Thus following the messenger as a person is TREASON, in this case to God.
Get it now?
Yes, i got that you are surely lying on yourself, you are the first one on earth interpreted that verse this way, How can it mean follow Quran while following the message which is Quran too?!Saying "Obey Allah" means "follow Quran", the next order can't be "Follow Quran" too.Saying "Obey the messenger" after that, means this messenger has what's different to the first order. Otherwise, it would be useless, and nothing useless in Quran.
You (and others) are wrongly assuming that the Koran was given in one complete phase, while the revelations expanded for 23 years!
The message was thus brought sequence by sequence, in times when many doubt about it and the messenger. So, contrary to your bold assertion, this ''follow Quran'' was not intended for it was still in the process of being complete. That's where 'Obey Allah and the messenger' makes sense: the Koran wasn't still being completed and the revelations were keeping in.
So are these verses telling us to obey what Allah says and obey what the prophet independently (independent of the revelation) says?
Muhammad has no power from himself to guide correctly: “When the servant of Allah stands calling on Him, they almost swarm all over him. Say: 'I call only upon my Lord and do not associate anyone else with Him.' Say: 'I possess no power to do you harm or to guide you right.' Say: 'No one can protect me from Allah and I will never find any refuge apart from Him –only in transmitting from Allah and His Messages. As for him who disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he will have the Fire of Hell, remaining in it timelessly, for ever and ever.' So that when they see what they were promised, they will know who has less support and smaller numbers. Say: 'I do not know whether what you are promised is close or whether my Lord will appoint a longer time before it.'” (72:19-25)
“Surely you cannot guide whom you like/love, but Allah guides whom He pleases, and He knows best the followers of the right way. And they (Muhammad‟s contemporaries) say: If we follow the guidance (Qur‟an) with you, we shall be carried off from our country. What ! have We not settled them in a safe, sacred territory to which fruits of every kind shall be drawn?-- a sustenance from Us; but most of them do not know.” (28:56-57) This not only tells us that Muhammad cannot guide whom he likes, but it also clearly indicates that his contemporaries recognised that the guidance they were being called to was the guidance with him (the Qur’an) and not his guidance Muhammad follows only the Qur‟an.
“Say: I am nothing new among the Messengers. I have no idea what will be done with me or you. I only follow what has been revealed to me. I am only a clear warner.‟” (46:9)
Muhammad warns by the Qur‟an, not by his own wisdom: - “Say: What thing is the weightiest in testimony? Say: Allah is witness between you and me; and this Qur’an has been revealed to me that with it I may warn you and whomsoever it reaches. Do you really bear witness that there are other gods with Allah? Say: I do not bear witness. Say: He is only one Allah, and surely I am clear of that which you set up (with Him).” (6:19)
Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, with elaboration: - “And obey Allah and obey the messenger and be cautious; but if you turn back, then know that only a clear deliverance of the message is (incumbent) on Our messenger” (5:92)
72.20-21: Say (unto them, O Muhammad): I pray unto Allah only, and ascribe unto Him no partner. (like in your shameful shahadah!) --- Say: Lo! I control not hurt nor benefit for you.
Muhammadans such as yourself are bowing to shirk while obeying to the ways of the hadiths...
WittyBoy wrote:You are completely right, no one obey the messenger of a king, we actually obey the king who sent the message
Get yourself straight !
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.
piscohot wrote:Muhammad. Which is why the quran say: Obey the messenger. This is confirmed by another quran verse that say: Obey Allah and his messenger, 3:132.
piscohot., you guys are confusing me., I am under the impression that TheCat almost proved Jibril was the messenger of Quran NOT Muhammad., .
He didnt understand such a simple thing that he ended up proving muhammad is not the messenger when quran calls him a messenger. He ended up contradicting quran.
You're deluded again... Where did I state that Muhammad is NOT a messenger? It's kind of systematic: wrong premises, false dilemma, red herring, straw man and ad hominem.
What I've said is that, without Jibril, he can't be such for the angel is at the divine part of the message, and messengers at its human portion. There must be a connection for the message to have any divine validity. Such a connection is totally absent from the hadiths.
Just like Muhammadans SNB is confusing everything: Muhammad as a person hasn't not much importance. No more than the messenger who carries the sealed message from the king to a vassal. He certainly has no more importance than any other messenger like the hadiths perfidiously concocted, shamelessly endorsed by SNB. As AB pointed out, Abraham's example is what Muhammad was commanded to follow.
skynightblaze wrote: the stupid argument that one needs to obey jibril only and not muhammad can simply be discarded.Latest arguments of CAT are pathetic to the core .Anyway whatever muhammad narrates from jibril has to be taken as face value.We have to obey muhammad to obey jibril or Allah.
The only question is how does one obey Muhammad ? There are 2 possibilities :
1) Obey him in respect of quran i.e Allah 2) Obey muhammad in other aspects.
The Cat wrote:Where did I state that Muhammad is NOT a messenger?
I don't know., but when you open a thread "Muhammad -Myth vs Reality" and you question existence of Quran until mid 8th century.., then the question of whether Muhammad was messenger or is NOT a messenger doesn't arise The Cat.....
WiityBoy No, look up Madina in Asia Map, and you will see how far it's from Yemen. How did i knew this incident was in Yemen? Here's Hadiths:
BTW Yemen is not that far, they use to travel not on foot but on horses. So no more this distance excuse.
But makes no difference whether Ali went to Yemen or India. Ali got there got the booty and f.cked the slave girl from booty. Did she fall in love with Ali right away that she took her clothes off, not that she was with Ali for 4 months. Ali forced himself on her period based on hadith.
WiityBoy Again, you try to limit the meaning in husbands and their wives, The prophet talked about women in general. Can you address only what hadith said? How can you build arguments based on your own statements?!!!!!You can take the following as an example
Fool I am also talking in general, you see me talking about a particular woman or case. In general you see women behind men who do not practice islam? what kind a genius I am dealing with here.
WiityBoy Stoning?! Let's discuss the punishment of adulatory after these hadiths. Anyway, If this boy loves this girl, why don't they get married? There's no excuses for adulatory, but when a woman fall in capture and none did any effort to return her back, should she be killed, imprisoned, or live in one of Muslim houses?
They can live in the house as servant with out your ancestors putting their dick inside them? I am sure they would prefer this then some filthy long beard freak putting his dick inside them and having fun, and then selling them to some other men. And you are so shamless & morally bankrupt you don't see how wrong that is.
WiityBoy What would make my daughter go to the battle field? Even that happened(Impossible), Wouldn't I return her make for ransom?????
so those unfortunate one whose family could not pay ransom, its their tough luck they can be exploited and use as sex object instead of having mercy on them. This is your Islam which is nothing but a curse to this world as you proving here.
As far boy/girl if they love and don't marry and have sex you have a problem with that call it immoral. But master using his slave with no feelings and just want to fuk her and use her for physical pleasure and sell to someone else after wards you are OK with that, that's not immoral. ... this is your intelligent islam.
wittyboy Was Ali the Prophet or Muhammad Ibn Abdullah(peace and blessings be upon him)? Ali was an ordinary man like other companions and the prophet kept teaching them Islam, their mistakes let us knew more from our beloved prophet(pbuh), can you see how you are idiot?
Ali was not an ordinary man in Islam FYI. He is one of the most respected men in Islam.It is not a little thing he did, that can be ignored and excused that sorry he did not know, they were human beings who did nothing to him. If he turns out to be a criminal what can you expect from others? So you admit Ali was a criminal by doing this barbaric criminal act on other human beings. You are doing great favour to your religion , keep it up.
So are these verses telling us to obey what Allah says and obey what the prophet independently (independent of the revelation) says?
Muhammad has no power from himself to guide correctly: “When the servant of Allah stands calling on Him, they almost swarm all over him. Say: 'I call only upon my Lord and do not associate anyone else with Him.' Say: 'I possess no power to do you harm or to guide you right.' Say: 'No one can protect me from Allah and I will never find any refuge apart from Him –only in transmitting from Allah and His Messages. As for him who disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he will have the Fire of Hell, remaining in it timelessly, for ever and ever.' So that when they see what they were promised, they will know who has less support and smaller numbers. Say: 'I do not know whether what you are promised is close or whether my Lord will appoint a longer time before it.'” (72:19-25)
“Surely you cannot guide whom you like/love, but Allah guides whom He pleases, and He knows best the followers of the right way. And they (Muhammad‟s contemporaries) say: If we follow the guidance (Qur‟an) with you, we shall be carried off from our country. What ! have We not settled them in a safe, sacred territory to which fruits of every kind shall be drawn?-- a sustenance from Us; but most of them do not know.” (28:56-57) This not only tells us that Muhammad cannot guide whom he likes, but it also clearly indicates that his contemporaries recognised that the guidance they were being called to was the guidance with him (the Qur’an) and not his guidance Muhammad follows only the Qur‟an.
“Say: I am nothing new among the Messengers. I have no idea what will be done with me or you. I only follow what has been revealed to me. I am only a clear warner.‟” (46:9)
Muhammad warns by the Qur‟an, not by his own wisdom: - “Say: What thing is the weightiest in testimony? Say: Allah is witness between you and me; and this Qur’an has been revealed to me that with it I may warn you and whomsoever it reaches. Do you really bear witness that there are other gods with Allah? Say: I do not bear witness. Say: He is only one Allah, and surely I am clear of that which you set up (with Him).” (6:19)
Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, with elaboration: - “And obey Allah and obey the messenger and be cautious; but if you turn back, then know that only a clear deliverance of the message is (incumbent) on Our messenger” (5:92)
72.20-21: Say (unto them, O Muhammad): I pray unto Allah only, and ascribe unto Him no partner. (like in your shameful shahadah!) --- Say: Lo! I control not hurt nor benefit for you.
[/quote]
Excellent the Cat, another Grandmother of all slams sending those filthy Mushrikoon back to their shirk hole underground.
I appreciate cat write a lot, but nothing that matters much. He is very selective as if he suffers from selective amnesia.And we all know the loosers and desperate are a looking for a straw.
WiityBoy No, look up Madina in Asia Map, and you will see how far it's from Yemen. How did i knew this incident was in Yemen? Here's Hadiths:
BTW Yemen is not that far, they use to travel not on foot but on horses. So no more this distance excuse. But makes no difference whether Ali went to Yemen or India. Ali got there got the booty and f.cked the slave girl from booty. Did she fall in love with Ali right away that she took her clothes off, not that she was with Ali for 4 months. Ali forced himself on her period based on hadith.
They used to travel on horses >> Then Yemen was not that far! what a stupid conclusion! It's still far even they use horses, you have to prove after how much time he reached Yemen, and then claim that Ali forced the female captive on sex directly after the war. Add to that, you don't know too when this incident happened after his arrival, the narrator said a specific incident, it doesn't mean it took place directly after his arrival. He might do million of things, and spend tens of days, and then this incident in interest took place. BTW, having sex without months of love doesn't mean forcing on sex, there can be readiness (attraction, desire, acceptance,... etc) without having a long period before it. Especially, this relationship ensures this female captive's rights, and her child will be a legitimate son.
WiityBoy Again, you try to limit the meaning in husbands and their wives, The prophet talked about women in general. Can you address only what hadith said? How can you build arguments based on your own statements?!!!!!You can take the following as an example
I am also talking in general, you see me talking about a particular woman or case.
Yes, you talked about husbands and wives, woman doesn't need to be the man's wife to tempt him.
In general you see women behind men who do not practice islam?
Stupid again. Not the only reason, but one of the reasons.
WiityBoy Stoning?! Let's discuss the punishment of adulatory after these hadiths. Anyway, If this boy loves this girl, why don't they get married? There's no excuses for adulatory, but when a woman fall in capture and none did any effort to return her back, should she be killed, imprisoned, or live in one of Muslim houses?
They can live in the house as servant
Yes, good, but with good treatment which they wouldn't find even in their folk. You look at a single act even hasn't been done by The Prophet(pbuh), but when it was suggested to him by a group of young companions in the beginning of their life, he disapproved and upbraided it. Should we ignore the prophet's opinion and follow the young companions' suggestion?
iffo wrote:
WiityBoy What would make my daughter go to the battle field? Even that happened(Impossible), Wouldn't I return her make for ransom?????
so those unfortunate one whose family could not pay ransom, its their tough luck they can be exploited and use as sex object instead of having mercy on them.
No "sex objects" in Islam, stop arguing using your own statements. and who couldn't pay ransom???? no one in this situation couldn't find the money of ransom, he isn't going to pay a car or a house, and he isn't a lone in his tribe, especially that Muslims are the enemy of all the tribe not only him.
iffo wrote:
wittyboy Was Ali the Prophet or Muhammad Ibn Abdullah(peace and blessings be upon him)? Ali was an ordinary man like other companions and the prophet kept teaching them Islam, their mistakes let us knew more from our beloved prophet(pbuh), can you see how you are idiot?
Ali was not an ordinary man in Islam FYI. He is one of the most respected men in Islam.
So he was another prophet and we take our faith from him???? he was an ordinary man did mistakes as any other people and the prophet corrects them.
It is not a little thing he did, that can be ignored and excused that sorry he did not know, they were human beings who did nothing to him.
You still argue depending on your own words, who did learn you this way? From where did you know they have done nothing to him? The punishment of apostaty was clearly known, so Ali didn't punish them this way until they did something other than apostasy. Ibn Hajr in his explanation to Sahih Al-Bukhari, narrated some reasons for this punishment, and he mentioned a narration with sanad hasan (a correct list of authorities who have transmitted this narration):
when Ali was informed regarding a people who considered him to be god, he called them and asked them to refrain from such blasphemy. They refused to comply. This went on for three days. Till, finally, Ali ordered to dig a deep pit and burn a huge fire in it. The criminals were brought to the fire. Ali told them that if they do not agree to refrain from their blasphemy, they would be thrown in the fire. They persisted in their refusal and were, subsequently, thrown in the fire.
AhmedBahgat wrote:So you reckon Allah told us to emulate Muhammed (only) as an excellent example, or did He tell us that there are more who are exce;llent examples to us?
True the quran mentioned 'Ibrahim'. So? And isn't it silly for a 'holy' book to repeat the same thing about 'Ibrahim' more than 8 times?
How do the muslims at the time of Muhammad follow 'Ibrahim'? Was 'Ibrahim' around at that time for muslims to follow? Other than the quran, weren't all the other books 'corrupted'?
So you think that the quran meant for muslims to follow Muhammad just like 'Ibrahim' only in this respect: Then We revealed to you to follow the religion of Ibrahim, the upright one; and he was not among the polytheists. ? By not being a polytheists?
What about this excellent example Allah had Muhammad set for muslims to follow:
33:37 And when you said to him to whom Allah had shown favor and to whom you had shown a favor: Keep your wife to yourself and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; and you concealed in your soul what Allah would bring to light, and you feared men, and Allah had a greater right that you should fear Him. But when Zaid had accomplished his want of her, We gave her to you as a wife, so that there should be no difficulty for the believers in respect of the wives of their adopted sons, when they have accomplished their want of them; and Allah's command shall be performed.
So it is clear when Allah mentioned Muhammad as an 'exalted example', Allah meant for muslims to follow Muhammad's actions in his daily life than just being monotheists. And how do muslims get to know what Muhammad did in his daily life? Oh gee.. the damned hadiths again.
Quran miracle (16:69) :Bees eat ALL fruits Quran miracle (27:18) : an ant SAID, "O ants, enter your dwellings that you not be crushed by Solomon and his soldiers while they perceive not."
Dumb kafir, did you learn the above stupid argument yourself or did you learn it from filthy Mushrik WittyBoy?
Well, if you learnt it from al-Mushrikoon, then I advice you that now you don’t only look dumb, rather, dumbest, exactly like them.
So you reckon Allah told us to emulate Muhammed (only) as an excellent example, or did He tell us that there are more who are exce;llent examples to us?
Well, let me show you, dumbest:
قَدْ كَانَتْ لَكُمْ أُسْوَةٌ حَسَنَةٌ فِي إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَالَّذِينَ مَعَهُ إِذْ قَالُوا لِقَوْمِهِمْ إِنَّا بُرَآءُ مِنْكُمْ وَمِمَّا تَعْبُدُونَ مِنْ دُونِ اللَّهِ كَفَرْنَا بِكُمْ وَبَدَا بَيْنَنَا وَبَيْنَكُمُ الْعَدَاوَةُ وَالْبَغْضَاءُ أَبَدًا حَتَّىٰ تُؤْمِنُوا بِاللَّهِ وَحْدَهُ إِلَّا قَوْلَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ لِأَبِيهِ لَأَسْتَغْفِرَنَّ لَكَ وَمَا أَمْلِكُ لَكَ مِنَ اللَّهِ مِنْ شَيْءٍ ۖ رَبَّنَا عَلَيْكَ تَوَكَّلْنَا وَإِلَيْكَ أَنَبْنَا وَإِلَيْكَ الْمَصِيرُ (4) There has certainly been for you a good example in Ibrahim and those with him, when they said to their people: Indeed, we are disassociated from you and from what you worship other than Allah. We have denied you, and there have appeared between us and you enmity and hatred forever until you believe in Allah alone, except for the saying of Ibrahim to his father: I will surely seek forgiveness for you, but I do not possess for you against Allah anything. Our Lord! Upon You we have relied, and to You we have turned, and to You is the destination. [Al Quran ; 60:4]
-> What went wrong in here with your stupid reasoning, dumbest kafir? See: There has certainly been for you a good example in Ibrahim and those with him, not only Ibrahim, but those with him. Not only Muhammed is a good example to us. The above about Ibrahim and those with him was even repeated in the same sura, see:
لَقَدْ كَانَ لَكُمْ فِيهِمْ أُسْوَةٌ حَسَنَةٌ لِمَنْ كَانَ يَرْجُو اللَّهَ وَالْيَوْمَ الْآخِرَ ۚ وَمَنْ يَتَوَلَّ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ هُوَ الْغَنِيُّ الْحَمِيدُ (6) There has certainly been for you in them a good example, for one who desires Allah and the last day; and whoever turns away, then indeed, Allah is the Rich, the Praised. [Al Quran ; 60:6]
-> There has certainly been for you in them a good example, now the same verse even told us what is the good example, see: for one who desires Allah and the last day;
Here is the full sentence: There has certainly been for you in them a good example, for one who desires Allah and the last day;
And that is the good example, kafir, not what the filthy Mushrikoon tell you nor that with which you delude yourself.
Now what was that, that was special about Ibrahim? Well, read these verses and educate yourself, dumbest kafir:
وَقَالُواْ كُونُواْ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَى تَهْتَدُواْ قُلْ بَلْ مِلَّةَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ حَنِيفًا وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ (135) And they said: Be a Jew or a Christian, you will be guided. Say: Rather, the religion of Ibrahim, the upright , and he was not among the polytheists. [Al Quran ; 2:135]
-> See: the religion of Ibrahim, the upright , and he was not among the polytheists. Unlike the filthy hadith worshipping Muslims who are clear cut Mushrikoon.
إِنَّ إِبْرَاهِيمَ كَانَ أُمَّةً قَانِتًا لِلَّهِ حَنِيفًا وَلَمْ يَكُ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ (120) Indeed, Ibrahim was a leader, devoted to Allah, upright; and he was not of the polytheists. [Al Quran ; 16:120]
-> See: Ibrahim was a leader, devoted to Allah, upright; and he was not of the polytheists. Unlike the filthy hadith worshipping Muslims who are clear cut Mushrikoon.
مَا كَانَ إِبْرَاهِيمُ يَهُودِيًّا وَلاَ نَصْرَانِيًّا وَلَكِن كَانَ حَنِيفًا مُّسْلِمًا وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ (67) Ibrahim was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was upright, a submitter and he was not of the polytheists. [Al Quran ; 3:67]
-> See: Ibrahim was neither ………, but he was upright, a submitter and he was not of the polytheists. Unlike the filthy hadith worshipping Muslims who are clear cut Mushrikoon.
It was even a direct command from Allah to Muhammed to command the believes to take Ibrahim as an example and follow his religion which never had shirk in it:
قُلْ صَدَقَ اللّهُ فَاتَّبِعُواْ مِلَّةَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ حَنِيفًا وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ (95) Say: Allah has spoken the truth, so follow the religion of Ibrahim, the upright; and he was not among the polytheists. [Al Quran ; 3:95]
-> See: Say: Allah has spoken the truth, so follow the religion of Ibrahim, the upright; and he was not among the polytheists.
And even Muhammed was commanded to take Ibrahim as good example by following his religion and be not of the polytheists:
ثُمَّ أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ أَنِ اتَّبِعْ مِلَّةَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ حَنِيفًا ۖ وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ (123) Then We revealed to you to follow the religion of Ibrahim, the upright one; and he was not among the polytheists. [Al Quran ; 16:123]
-> See: We revealed to you to follow the religion of Ibrahim, the upright one; and he was not among the polytheists. Unlike the filthy hadith worshipping Muslims who are clear cut Mushrikoon.
The warning against following anyone but Ibrahim is clear, see:
وَمَن يَرْغَبُ عَن مِّلَّةِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ إِلاَّ مَن سَفِهَ نَفْسَهُ وَلَقَدِ اصْطَفَيْنَاهُ فِي الدُّنْيَا وَإِنَّهُ فِي الآخِرَةِ لَمِنَ الصَّالِحِينَ (130) And none would be averse to the religion of Ibrahim except one who makes a fool of himself. And We chose him in this world, and in the hereafter he will be from among the righteous. [Al Quran ; 2:130]
-> See: And none would be averse to the religion of Ibrahim except one who makes a fool of himself.
وَمَنْ أَحْسَنُ دِينًا مِّمَّنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لله وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ واتَّبَعَ مِلَّةَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ حَنِيفًا وَاتَّخَذَ اللّهُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ خَلِيلاً (125) And who has a better religion than one who submits his face to Allah while being a doer of good and follows the religion of Ibrahim, the upright? And Allah took Ibrahim as a friend. [Al Quran ; 4:125]
-> See this one: And who has a better religion than one who submits his face to Allah while being a doer of good and follows the religion of Ibrahim, the upright? And Allah took Ibrahim as a friend. Allah did not even say that He took Muhammed as a friend as He did with Ibrahim.
Even Muhammed was commanded by Allah to tell the people that he was taking Ibrahim as an example and following his religion which had no shirk:
قُلْ إِنَّنِي هَدَانِي رَبِّي إِلَى صِرَاطٍ مُّسْتَقِيمٍ دِينًا قِيَمًا مِّلَّةَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ حَنِيفًا وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ (161) Say: Indeed, my Lord has guided me to a straight path, the correct religion; the faith of Ibrahim the upright and he was not of the polytheists. [Al Quran ; 6:161]
-> See: Say: Indeed, my Lord has guided me to a straight path, the correct religion; the faith of Ibrahim the upright and he was not of the polytheists.
Even prophet Yusuf was talking Ibrahim as and example by following his religion which should have no shirk therein:
وَاتَّبَعْتُ مِلَّةَ آبَائِي إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْحَاقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ ۚ مَا كَانَ لَنَا أَنْ نُشْرِكَ بِاللَّهِ مِنْ شَيْءٍ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ مِنْ فَضْلِ اللَّهِ عَلَيْنَا وَعَلَى النَّاسِ وَلَٰكِنَّ أَكْثَرَ النَّاسِ لَا يَشْكُرُونَ (38) And I have followed the religion of my fathers, Ibrahim and Ishaq and Yaqoub; it never was for us to associate with Allah a thing. That is from the grace of Allah upon us and upon the people, but most people do not give thanks. [Al Quran ; 12:38]
-> See: And I (prophet Yusuf) have followed the religion of my fathers, Ibrahim and Ishaq and Yaqoub; it never was for us to associate with Allah a thing. And that is the religion of Ibrahim that Muhammed and all believers after him followed while taking Ibrahim as an example in not shirking with Allah anything.
So what I am doing with those filthy Mushrikoon is simply this, I took Ibrahim as an excellent example (as commanded by Allah) and disassociated myself from the shirk of my fathers and grandfathers, see:
وَإِذْ قَالَ إِبْرَاهِيمُ لِأَبِيهِ وَقَوْمِهِ إِنَّنِي بَرَاءٌ مِمَّا تَعْبُدُونَ (26) And when Ibrahim said to his father and his people: Indeed, I am disassociated from what you worship. [Al Quran ; 43:26]
-< See what Ibrahim said to his Mushrik father and his Mushrik people: Indeed, I am disassociated from what you worship.
It is clear, kafir, that you have no point; while as I told ya earlier, I have all the points. So here is another point for you:
Keep listening to the confused and filthy Mushriks from among the Muslims and you will become like them, the dumbest
You have been slammed again, kafir boy:
You damn fool Piscohot refuted your stupid argument. If muhammad was to be emulated just like Ibrahim why does the hell does the verse 33:37 talk about following Muhammad in a matter that concerned with his daily life???? See how stupid you are? The excellent example in muhammad is not restricted to just following Allah without shirk. The quran clearly refutes you. It includes even daily matters as proven above..
Btw here is another verse that you may shove up your arse ...
[004:065] But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.
This verse talks about dispute amongst muslims and it says muhammad should be made a judge and people must follow his decisions so tell us how in the world using quran alone would you have muhammad as a judge between you and other muslims? Without hadiths and without knowing what muhammad did and said you cant have muhammad as the judge. Btw dont again bring quranic verses because you believe its the word of Allah so quran resolving disputes would mean Allah is resolving disputes and not muhammad.See the judgement of muhamad is important which again references indirectly to hadiths..
Finally I ask you a question . Why would Allah not ask muslims to follow an excellent example in muhammad in his daily life? Did Allah fear that Muhammmad would himself violate quran when it came to matters in daily life? Its obvious dumb! A messenger of God should be the first person who will implement quran in his daily life so knowing muhammads daily life and following him is essential .
Finally I placed the slam dunk animation to the place where it should be !!
# 100000000000000000000
Last edited by skynightblaze on Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.
Your other argument regarding 2:79 can be refuted along the same lines. See Quran basically provides indirectly references to hadiths and hence bukhari writing book other than Quran wouldnt constitute a sin .The only debate is about whether quran sanctions the hadiths or not. If I prove it to you that hadiths are referenced in the quran then Bukhari was absolutely right in writing a book other than quran! Unfortunately you are going to lose because quran does make explicit but indirect references to hadiths.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.
The Cat wrote:You're deluded again... Where did I state that Muhammad is NOT a messenger? It's kind of systematic: wrong premises, false dilemma, red herring, straw man and ad hominem.
Even Yeezevee thought that you mean muhammad is not a messenger. The problem is with you writing incoherent arguments which lack clarity.
Anyway If you agree he is a messenger then you must also admit that we need to follow him.The logic that we need to follow jibril and not muhammad is simply gibberish.Muhammad is the contact point for muslims and hence following muhammad is essential.Now the only question is how does one follow Muhammad? Follow only quran or other aspects. The debate boils down to how we are supposed to follow Muhammad. My claim is that Muhammad is not only asked to follow with regards to quran but also with regard to hadiths and hence hadiths also get a nod from Allah.
The Cat wrote:What I've said is that, without Jibril, he can't be such for the angel is at the divine part of the message, and messengers at its human portion. There must be a connection for the message to have any divine validity. Such a connection is totally absent from the hadiths.
Just like Muhammadans SNB is confusing everything: Muhammad as a person hasn't not much importance. No more than the messenger who carries the sealed message from the king to a vassal. He certainly has no more importance than any other messenger like the hadiths perfidiously concocted, shamelessly endorsed by SNB. As AB pointed out, Abraham's example is what Muhammad was commanded to follow.
Piscohot has refuted Bahgat's argument regarding following Ibrahim and I also have brought an additional verse 4:65 which clearly asks muslims to take muhammad's decision to judge between them in matters of faith . This refutes you clearly! . ! Muhammad has importance and he isnt merely ordered to carry out what Allah told him.The excellent example in muhammad concerns with daily matters of his life as well as shown by Piscohot .
Btw hadiths do have a seal of Allah since quran clearly hints at following them.
The Cat wrote:Now answer me good: 1. How many times in the Koran is it written: Obey Allah and obey Muhammad?
2. How many times (apart added brackets) is the name 'Muhammad' written in the whole Koran?
I think you are trying to say that since quran said Obey the messenger and not obey muhammad then there is a seal of jibril associated with the word messenger and hence muslims are asked to follow what Allah tells. Witty boy already showed you why your argument is wrong but yet it seems that you dont understand what your opponent is telling you . by saying obey Allah we already cover the sealed message via jibril and hence there is no need to again say obey the messenger.
Or are you gonna cry 'victory' and run away from ANY proper answer... just like the Muhammadans?
Its you who has run away from most of my questions . Honestly ask yourself how many parts of my posts you left unanswered? .As far as AB is concerned none is going to bother to read pages and pages of his long never ending responses. I will look into the links and answer the ones which are within reach of anyone;s patience.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.
The only question is how does one obey Muhammad ? There are 2 possibilities :
1) Obey him in respect of quran i.e Allah 2) Obey muhammad in other aspects.
Both actually.
Quran.33:36: And it behoves not a believing man and a believing woman that they should have any choice in their matter when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he surely strays off a manifest straying.
Why would the messenger need to decide if the decision was Allah's to make? That will bring us back to the hadiths.
Thanks to piscohot! HEre is another verse confirming that muhammad is not to obeyed with respect to just quran alone.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.
when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter
So who wrote this stuff?
"when I and my messenger have decided a matter" sounds a bit better, but wait, why does my messenger get a say in my decision? I am Allah, I made the decision before the beginning of time, he delivers my message, and that's it. The messenger does not get a part in decision making. Allah has no partners, remember?
"Brother, you can believe in stones, as long as you don’t throw them at me." - Wafa Sultan
skyarseblaze wrote: Why would Allah not ask muslims to follow an excellent example in muhammad in his daily life?
I guess, you found out that inmate Mushrik Boy is making you dumbest, so you are now hanging around with inmate piss, well you better watch out, piss is uncircumcised and as you should know most those who are uncircumcised are filthy and more vulnerable to Aids
Now, before i slam you again, punk, where did you get that thing you called “IN HIS DAILY LIFE” I reckon, inmate piss taught you how to be a manipulator; but to be one you need to be smart, you dumb.
Waiting for your explanation to your words “IN HIS DAILY LIFE”, I guess you should come back and admit that you were only wishful thinking, kafir boy?
Last edited by AhmedBahgat on Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The only question is how does one obey Muhammad ? There are 2 possibilities :
1) Obey him in respect of quran i.e Allah 2) Obey muhammad in other aspects.
Both actually.
Quran.33:36: And it behoves not a believing man and a believing woman that they should have any choice in their matter when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he surely strays off a manifest straying.
Why would the messenger need to decide if the decision was Allah's to make? That will bring us back to the hadiths.
Thanks to piscohot! HEre is another verse confirming that muhammad is not to obeyed with respect to just quran alone.
Why dont you refute the pdf file the Cat posted?
Are you scared so that you are running around like a clown seeking the help of Mushriks like Mushrik Boy and the help of the kafirs like filthy piss?
Well if you dont refute it, which slams your repeated crap, then I will copy it and format it my style and shove it in your pinhead for you to refute, most of it is what I said anyway, but the author added more very strong points, so later today I will let that author slams a kafir and ex Mushrik hindu follower like you. Obviously dumbing your flawed man made shirking religion (hinduism) did not help you to rid of your tendencay to shirk.
AhmedBahgat wrote: Why dont you refute the pdf file the Cat posted?
well that pdf is at http://www.detailedquran.com/ good stuff.. Hmm.. good stuff ., Well what a man has to do he has to do.. read it all and use it to educate., Long way to go in life..
Indeed the above chapter shows Muhammad(PBUH) as a perfect example for every male species. Those words are from Allah and you can not change., I wish I could but I can not., I wish I could throe in to Hadith but I acn not., So often I wonder Why Allah acts as pimp to Mr. PBUH to get his harem.
Anyways., That is the human intelligence where the common sense goes out of window and doesn't interfere with Allah words..
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SILUNS!!!!! 
... this is your intelligent islam. 
# 100000000000000000000
Let's discuss the punishment of adulatory after these hadiths. Anyway, If this boy loves this girl, why don't they get married? There's no excuses for adulatory, but when a woman fall in capture and none did any effort to return her back, should she be killed, imprisoned, or live in one of Muslim houses?
