yeezevee wrote:The Cat stopped writing in to this wonderful and confusing thread., But he seem to tap in to that website of http://www.free-minds.org/ heavily.
Wootah wrote:Don't lie at FFI please. Carry on for now.ayman wrote:Against Islam with a capital “I” yes but no sane person is against islam/“peacemaking”.
- Code: Select all
I am not the member of the some religion with a meaningless name. I am a peacemaker. It is by actions not labels. :)
I used the code tag. You and I both know that what you said is code. There is no peace until the world is Islam. Keep up your inner struggle
Ibn Rushd wrote:QP, welcome to the forum.
What you say about east of the Galilee and around Damascus may have some leverage in the verse which states that "you pass by them morning and evening". Patricia Crone brought attention to this as well I think. It implies that daily trips were done to/from this "Mecca" and Israel/Jerusalem. There was an exhaustive essay in a link posted on the old forum, but I have yet to re-find it.
The Cat wrote:In resume: the religion of 'Islam' -that we're now facing- isn't the Koranic DIN at all !
It would be more appropriate to call it Muhammadanism. And it's thoroughly shirk...
Although the relation of the Targum Yerushalmi to Onḳelos has already been discussed, it may be added here that the complete Palestinian Targum, as it is found in the pseudo-Jonathan, is not earlier than the seventh century; for it mentions Ayeshah ('A'ishah) (or, according to another reading, Khadija [Ḥadijah]) and Fatima, the wife and daughter of Mohammed, as wives of Ishmael, who was regarded as Mohammed's ancestor.
Jost was the first to point out that in the thirtieth chapter, in which at the end the author distinctly alludes to the three stages of the Mohammedan conquest, that of Arabia, of Spain, and of Rome (830 C.E.), the names of Fatima and Ayesha occur beside that of Ishmael, leading to the conclusion that the book originated in a time when Islam was predominant in Asia Minor.
The fact that she selected an Egyptian woman as her son's wife is also counted against her as a proof that her conversion to Judaism was not sincere, for "throw the stick into the air, it will return to its root" (Gen. R. liii., end). This Egyptian wife is explained in the Targum of pseudo-Jonathan to refer to Khadija and Fatima, the widow and the daughter of Mohammed.
Ibn Rushd wrote:Spoiler! :
Perhaps these three women are just as fictional, and stem from Jewish imagination.booktalker wrote:Thanks Ibn Rushd - that's exactly what I'm trying to get at, and what you say would make sense...
QP wrote:I have also been looking at maps trying to figure out where Mecca/Bakka might really be and am looking primarily at the area East of the Sea of Galilee due to a Quranic reference implying proximity to the road to Damascus. I do not yet feel certain that it is the Beth Macca mentioned as I looked at pictures of this location and it seemed a bit too lush and green to be the Qur'anic Bakka, but it may have changed considerably in 1400 + years. One map I looked at placed the Ishmaelites in this area, as well.
Needless to say, I am floored by the excellent quality of the research on this thread. I once knew a brilliant woman that went by 'cats83' and thus wondered if 'The Cat' might be this individual. If so, you continue to amaze me. If not, I am grateful for your research and work no matter who you are.
Thank you!
QP
booktalker wrote:Dear The Cat - Any more coming on this thread? I'm impatient to see your next instalment.
The Arabic of today was developed and spoken by the Nabataeans, who considered themselves Ismaelites. According to their conviction Ismail (Ish’mael), the son of Av’ram (Abraham) from Hagar was their forefather. Petra, Madian, Medain Salih, Al Ûlâ, Mughayir Shuayb and the neighbouring lands have actually belonged to the Nabataeans, who are the forefathers of the present day Arabs. But a great majority of them had to leave everything that was once theirs due to various reasons and migrate to other lands, mainly south to places in the Arabian Peninsula. The Messenger, his family and tribe must have been of these Nabataeans.
The above quoted verse (Kuran 33:27), “He made you inheritors to their homes, their land, their property, and to the land you haven’t yet stepped on..” was supposedly revealed when the Ismaelite-Hagarene Messenger was in the Medinan days of his ‘prophetic’ life. If the essence of this verse is right then the person who’d had this verse written into the codebook also must have felt that the Messenger was not one of the desert Arabs, that he was a stranger to Makka. This makes Makka the land that the Messenger ‘hadn’t stepped on yet’. The belief system was not yet centred on Makka in those days. The Messenger and his movement had their sights on Bakka in Palestine. The local followers of the Hagarene teaching (amongst whom there must have been the Arabs of Makka as well) must also have considered the Messenger a stranger, an outsider.
booktalker wrote:Also, a question - on the basis of your research, what about Aisha? Who was she? Is there evidence that she was who they say she was?
The oasis kingdom is also mentioned in the prophetic vision of the war of Gog and Magog (Ezekiel 38; see also, Revelation 20:8), and appears to be a nation of significance in this end-times prophecy of Ezekiel. In Ezekiel 38:13, Dedan is joined with Sheba, and "Tarshish and all her strong lions", all these nations joining together to inquire of the advancing armies of Gog: "Have you come to plunder? Have you gathered your hordes to loot, to carry off silver and gold, to take away livestock and goods and to seize much plunder?" (Also: Jer.25.23 and.49.8; Ez.25.13; 27.15 and 27.20).
Now known as Al Ula in northern Saudi Arabia, known to the ancient Greeks and Romans as Hijra, Hegra or Egra...
The location where the extinct tribe of Thamud used to dwell.
Ibn Rushd wrote:Taken from Jewish Encyclopedia, completed 1907.
TargumimSpoiler! :
Perhaps these three women are just as fictional, and stem from Jewish imagination.
There are quite a few stories which have their root in second century (A.D.) Jewish apocryphal literature; stories such as the murder of Abel by Cain in sura 5:31-32, borrowed from the Targum of Jonathan-ben-Uzziah and the Mishnah Sanhedrin 4:5; or the story of Abraham, the idols and the fiery furnace in sura 21:51-71, taken from the Midrash Rabbah; or the amusing story found in sura 27:17-44, of Solomon, his talking Hoopoo bird, and the queen of Sheba who lifts her skirt when mistaking a mirrored floor for water, taken from the 2nd Targum of Esther.
The account of Mt. Sinai being lifted up and held over the heads of the Jews as a threat for rejecting the law (sura 7:171) comes from the second century Jewish apocryphal book, The Abodah Sarah. The odd accounts of the early childhood of Jesus in the Qur'an can be traced to a number of Christian apocryphal writings: the Palm tree which provides for the anguish of Mary after Jesus's birth (sura 19:22-26) comes from The Lost Books of the Bible; while the account of the infant Jesus creating birds from clay (sura 3:49) comes from Thomas' Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ. The story of the baby Jesus talking (sura 19:29-33) can be traced to Arabic apocryphal fable from Egypt named The first Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ.
In sura 17:1 we have the report of Muhammad's journey by night from the sacred mosque to the farthest mosque.' From later traditions we find this aya refers to Muhammad ascending up to the seventh heaven, after a miraculous night journey (the Mi'raj) from Mecca to Jerusalem, on a "winged-horse" called Buraq. More detail is furnished us in the Mishkat al Masabih. We can trace the story back to a fictitious book called The Testament of Abraham, written around 200 B.C., in Egypt, and then translated into Greek and Arabic. Another analogous account is that of The Secrets of Enoch ( chapter 1:4-10 and 2:1), which predates the Qur'an by four centuries. Yet a further similar account is largely modelled on the story contained in the old Persian book entitled Arta-i Viraf Namak, telling how a pious young Zoroastrian ascended to the skies, and, on his return, related what he had seen, or professed to have seen (Pfander 1835:295-296).
The Qur'anic description of Hell resembles the descriptions of hell in the Homilies of Ephraim, a Nestorian preacher of the sixth century (Glubb 1971:36). The author of the Qur'an in suras 42:17 and 101:6-9 possibly utilized The Testament of Abraham to teach that a scale or balance will be used on the day of judgment to weigh good and bad deeds in order to determine whether one goes to heaven or to hell.
I am curious here dear Ibn Rushd., Are you employing that because "Ayesha's name, which appeared in Targum ps.-Jonathan, as Adisha" hence the story of Aisha/Muhammad (Inlcuding Muhammad himself) in Islam is nothing but a silly story started from Jewish theology and perpetuated by Muslim Robots??Ibn Rushd wrote:One of those links on JE had the Hebrew of Ayesha's name, which appeared in Targum ps.-Jonathan, as Adisha. I tried to find it again, but couldn't. It only proves that her name is reformed from something else.
I think targums, midrash, talmuds, etc. have been vastly underestimated, and underutilized in Middle Eastern history. They are only used to study Judaism, the religion, but not the region's history.
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