Faith Freedom International

by **Ibn Rushd** » Thu Sep 16, 2010 2:52 am

Welcome Calgacus. Not many BCer's here. Hope you have a good time.

Yes, we ex-muslims are the brave of the world.

by **calgacus** » Thu Sep 16, 2010 6:06 pm

Cheers Mate,

I wonder how many people know about this site? its fantastic. I bet muslims would love to shut this site down, they do not like to question the Koran and its plagierised, hate-filled pages.

This site is becon of light for many muslims who are in their mental prison and trying to escape, the Islam relgion is a hate crime, as is the Quoran a hate crime, there shoud be government or private ran places for muslims who are trying to escape.

When those old farts in America wrote the US constitution, they never meant the Muslims, they could not see into the future, they meant all Christian and Jewish people who were the only relgions in the eearly US. Just as the old farts wrote in the right to bear arms, sure for that time Yanks, not now you cowboys.

Lots of good ex-muslims in BC I am sure, they need a site as great as this one :*)

Muha{Mad}? A good head if you like Turnip!

Calgacus

by **Ibn Rushd** » Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:12 am

Our site has been under continuous attack from Muslims for years. Sometimes if you can't access the site, that's usually what's happened. Just wait a few hours, or check back the next day to see if it's back up. I used to admin the Spanish forum, but that was fruitless since Islamic attacks from Lithuania or Estonia were common.

I hope you're right about the ex-muslims in BC, I've never heard of any before though.

by **The Cat** » Fri Sep 17, 2010 2:42 pm

yeezevee wrote:The Cat stopped writing in to this wonderful and confusing thread., But he seem to tap in to that website of http://www.free-minds.org/ heavily.

72.18: And the places of worship are only for Allah, so pray not unto anyone along with Allah.

by **phill01** » Sun Sep 26, 2010 9:38 pm

Hi Cat...One of the best reads to date in my view....very interesting stuff indeed. I posted in anqother threas about where three qiblas of the oldest Mosque pointed to being: Al Ula before reading this thread. The evidence just keeps stacking up that Mohammas was from the Al Ula area.

Keep up the good work

by **Ansar al-Zindiqi** » Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:42 am

Wootah wrote:
ayman wrote:Against Islam with a capital “I” yes but no sane person is against islam/“peacemaking”.
Don't lie at FFI please. Carry on for now.

Code: Select all
I am not the member of the some religion with a meaningless name. I am a peacemaker. It is by actions not labels. :)

I used the code tag. You and I both know that what you said is code. There is no peace until the world is Islam. Keep up your inner struggle

by QP » Mon Sep 27, 2010 4:17 am

I have also been looking at maps trying to figure out where Mecca/Bakka might really be and am looking primarily at the area East of the Sea of Galilee due to a Quranic reference implying proximity to the road to Damascus. I do not yet feel certain that it is the Beth Macca mentioned as I looked at pictures of this location and it seemed a bit too lush and green to be the Qur'anic Bakka, but it may have changed considerably in 1400 + years. One map I looked at placed the Ishmaelites in this area, as well.

Needless to say, I am floored by the excellent quality of the research on this thread. I once knew a brilliant woman that went by 'cats83' and thus wondered if 'The Cat' might be this individual. If so, you continue to amaze me. If not, I am grateful for your research and work no matter who you are.

Thank you!
QP

by **Ibn Rushd** » Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:05 am

QP, welcome to the forum.

What you say about east of the Galilee and around Damascus may have some leverage in the verse which states that "you pass by them morning and evening". Patricia Crone brought attention to this as well I think. It implies that daily trips were done to/from this "Mecca" and Israel/Jerusalem. There was an exhaustive essay in a link posted on the old forum, but I have yet to re-find it.

by **phill01** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 3:45 am

Ibn Rushd wrote:QP, welcome to the forum.

What you say about east of the Galilee and around Damascus may have some leverage in the verse which states that "you pass by them morning and evening". Patricia Crone brought attention to this as well I think. It implies that daily trips were done to/from this "Mecca" and Israel/Jerusalem. There was an exhaustive essay in a link posted on the old forum, but I have yet to re-find it.

Hello

I saw an article on freeminds.org which talked about the word Makka which may or may not be helpfull . It mentioned that the work Maka in the classical Arabic dictionary means "destruction/weraing down". It is listed in the dictionary as either MK or MKK.

Copy of the article below

Here is a translation of 48:24 using Classical Arabic dictionaries and the context of war from the verses to translate the common description "maka(t)":

48:24. And it is He Who has restrained their hands from you and your hands from them in the midst of destruction after that He gave you the victory over them. And Allah sees well all that ye do.

I used Yusuf Ali's translation but while he left "maka(t)" un-translated I didn't. As one can see, the clear classical Arabic meaning fits perfectly in the context of the military standoff in verse 48:24.

Based on the context from the great reading/"quran", linguistic evidence from Arabic dictionaries, and the lack of any evidence supporting that there was a "pre-quranic" town by the name of Maka(t), the only logical unbiased conclusion is that "maka(t)" is not the name of "pre-quranic" town but is simply a mundane common noun like thousands of others in the great reading/"quran".

I'm not sure if that helps but I hope it does

by **booktalker** » Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:01 pm

Dear The Cat - Any more coming on this thread? I'm impatient to see your next instalment.

Also, a question - on the basis of your research, what about Aisha? Who was she? Is there evidence that she was who they say she was?

BT

by **Muhammad bin Lyin** » Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:44 pm

Why is the guy in the middle wearing a fast food employee's hat??

by **Muhammad bin Lyin** » Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:47 pm

The Cat wrote:In resume: the religion of 'Islam' -that we're now facing- isn't the Koranic DIN at all !
It would be more appropriate to call it Muhammadanism. And it's thoroughly shirk...

Who cares?? They're both nonsense and have little philosophical, mystical or spiritual value. So what good are either except to instill fear and lack of understanding which then lead to violence??

by **Ibn Rushd** » Fri Oct 08, 2010 4:39 am

Taken from Jewish Encyclopedia, completed 1907.

Targumim

On the relationship between Palestinian Targum (Aramaic translation and commentary on the Bible) to Targum Onkelos (Aquilas):

Although the relation of the Targum Yerushalmi to Onḳelos has already been discussed, it may be added here that the complete Palestinian Targum, as it is found in the pseudo-Jonathan, is not earlier than the seventh century; for it mentions Ayeshah ('A'ishah) (or, according to another reading, Khadija [Ḥadijah]) and Fatima, the wife and daughter of Mohammed, as wives of Ishmael, who was regarded as Mohammed's ancestor.

Pirkei de-Rabbi Eliezer

Jost was the first to point out that in the thirtieth chapter, in which at the end the author distinctly alludes to the three stages of the Mohammedan conquest, that of Arabia, of Spain, and of Rome (830 C.E.), the names of Fatima and Ayesha occur beside that of Ishmael, leading to the conclusion that the book originated in a time when Islam was predominant in Asia Minor.

Hagar

The fact that she selected an Egyptian woman as her son's wife is also counted against her as a proof that her conversion to Judaism was not sincere, for "throw the stick into the air, it will return to its root" (Gen. R. liii., end). This Egyptian wife is explained in the Targum of pseudo-Jonathan to refer to Khadija and Fatima, the widow and the daughter of Mohammed.

Perhaps these three women are just as fictional, and stem from Jewish imagination.

by **booktalker** » Fri Oct 08, 2010 12:12 pm

Thanks Ibn Rushd - that's exactly what I'm trying to get at, and what you say would make sense...

by **yeezevee** » Fri Oct 08, 2010 2:32 pm

Ibn Rushd wrote:

Spoiler! :

Taken from Jewish Encyclopedia, completed 1907.

Targumim

On the relationship between Palestinian Targum (Aramaic translation and commentary on the Bible) to Targum Onkelos (Aquilas):

Although the relation of the Targum Yerushalmi to Onḳelos has already been discussed, it may be added here that the complete Palestinian Targum, as it is found in the pseudo-Jonathan, is not earlier than the seventh century; for it mentions Ayeshah ('A'ishah) (or, according to another reading, Khadija [Ḥadijah]) and Fatima, the wife and daughter of Mohammed, as wives of Ishmael, who was regarded as Mohammed's ancestor.

Pirkei de-Rabbi Eliezer

Jost was the first to point out that in the thirtieth chapter, in which at the end the author distinctly alludes to the three stages of the Mohammedan conquest, that of Arabia, of Spain, and of Rome (830 C.E.), the names of Fatima and Ayesha occur beside that of Ishmael, leading to the conclusion that the book originated in a time when Islam was predominant in Asia Minor.

Hagar

The fact that she selected an Egyptian woman as her son's wife is also counted against her as a proof that her conversion to Judaism was not sincere, for "throw the stick into the air, it will return to its root" (Gen. R. liii., end). This Egyptian wife is explained in the Targum of pseudo-Jonathan to refer to Khadija and Fatima, the widow and the daughter of Mohammed.

Perhaps these three women are just as fictional, and stem from Jewish imagination.
booktalker wrote:Thanks Ibn Rushd - that's exactly what I'm trying to get at, and what you say would make sense...

Well , we all can make any assumptions we want and say "WHOLE ISLAM/QURAN/HADITH/Sunnah all that stuff comes from Juice and stories constructed by the Imagination of Jews.," or those early 7/8th century pagans/juice/Christians who converted in to Islam..

But the question kicks in., What do these Muslim intellectual Idiots doing for 1400 years??

by **The Cat** » Fri Oct 08, 2010 5:42 pm

QP wrote:I have also been looking at maps trying to figure out where Mecca/Bakka might really be and am looking primarily at the area East of the Sea of Galilee due to a Quranic reference implying proximity to the road to Damascus. I do not yet feel certain that it is the Beth Macca mentioned as I looked at pictures of this location and it seemed a bit too lush and green to be the Qur'anic Bakka, but it may have changed considerably in 1400 + years. One map I looked at placed the Ishmaelites in this area, as well.

Needless to say, I am floored by the excellent quality of the research on this thread. I once knew a brilliant woman that went by 'cats83' and thus wondered if 'The Cat' might be this individual. If so, you continue to amaze me. If not, I am grateful for your research and work no matter who you are.

Thank you!
QP

Welcome at FFI dear QP ( :up:

) and thanks for your nice words but... no, I'm not 'cats83'!

There have been major earthquakes throughout the region in May 363 and July 551 so this memory was still fresh and the ruins numerous. Another one in May 526 destroyed much of Antioch, killing 250,000 people (the 3rd most deadly earthquake of all time). So Muhammad must have traveled along this Middle-East fault line, way up North than 'Mecca' (Koranic geographical verses implying this: 8.32-35; 11.100; 25.38-41; 37:133-138).

by **The Cat** » Fri Oct 08, 2010 6:14 pm

booktalker wrote:Dear The Cat - Any more coming on this thread? I'm impatient to see your next instalment.

Hi 'booktalker'! Well, it's about it. The above Koranic verses indicate that Muhammad was born in Midian or the northwest of Arabia
This is more in line with the two reported pledges of Aqaba (then known as Aila) and even the battles of nearby Khaybar and Tabouk.

http://www.reocities.com/spenta_mainyu/Islam.htm

The Arabic of today was developed and spoken by the Nabataeans, who considered themselves Ismaelites. According to their conviction Ismail (Ish’mael), the son of Av’ram (Abraham) from Hagar was their forefather. Petra, Madian, Medain Salih, Al Ûlâ, Mughayir Shuayb and the neighbouring lands have actually belonged to the Nabataeans, who are the forefathers of the present day Arabs. But a great majority of them had to leave everything that was once theirs due to various reasons and migrate to other lands, mainly south to places in the Arabian Peninsula. The Messenger, his family and tribe must have been of these Nabataeans.

The above quoted verse (Kuran 33:27), “He made you inheritors to their homes, their land, their property, and to the land you haven’t yet stepped on..” was supposedly revealed when the Ismaelite-Hagarene Messenger was in the Medinan days of his ‘prophetic’ life. If the essence of this verse is right then the person who’d had this verse written into the codebook also must have felt that the Messenger was not one of the desert Arabs, that he was a stranger to Makka. This makes Makka the land that the Messenger ‘hadn’t stepped on yet’. The belief system was not yet centred on Makka in those days. The Messenger and his movement had their sights on Bakka in Palestine. The local followers of the Hagarene teaching (amongst whom there must have been the Arabs of Makka as well) must also have considered the Messenger a stranger, an outsider.

Please read the above link, by Mudarras K. Gaznavi, for much more reflexions on this.

booktalker wrote:Also, a question - on the basis of your research, what about Aisha? Who was she? Is there evidence that she was who they say she was?

Ibn Rushd post is very interesting on this matter (I'll comment on this in the following post).

Aischa's father, Abu Bakr, is said to have been in born in Mecca in 573, from the Quraysh tribe. Again, there was no important Mecca at that time and we've seen how the Quraysh weren't even a tribe but a trade (caravaners), a name originating from the Elamite region where Kuryash meant 'providers'. They were not related to any particular settlement (like 'Mecca'), but to places where they stopped for trading purposes, producing 'Hajj' (106.2).
viewtopic.php?p=92237#p92237
viewtopic.php?p=92599#p92599

For sure, everything related to Mecca before at least 710 is forged from the testimonies we've got. Muhammad inhabited further North, most probably in the Nabatean/Midian region ending south at Al-Ula/Mada'in Saleh (Hegra) and its tombs and ruins. The place of Jethro which the Arabic Koran identifies as Shoaib (sura 7.85-100, or the Midianite prophet). We also should note that al-Ula was once called Dedan...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dedan

The oasis kingdom is also mentioned in the prophetic vision of the war of Gog and Magog (Ezekiel 38; see also, Revelation 20:8), and appears to be a nation of significance in this end-times prophecy of Ezekiel. In Ezekiel 38:13, Dedan is joined with Sheba, and "Tarshish and all her strong lions", all these nations joining together to inquire of the advancing armies of Gog: "Have you come to plunder? Have you gathered your hordes to loot, to carry off silver and gold, to take away livestock and goods and to seize much plunder?" (Also: Jer.25.23 and.49.8; Ez.25.13; 27.15 and 27.20).

Now known as Al Ula in northern Saudi Arabia, known to the ancient Greeks and Romans as Hijra, Hegra or Egra...
The location where the extinct tribe of Thamud used to dwell.

Note: the two places are only 20km apart. It was in the incense road with nearby Tayma and Khaybar (but 'Mecca' wasn't).
Again, Hegra or Hijra is too close for comfort to the emblematic Hegira (departure, splitting)...

http://nabataea.net/dedan.html
http://nabataea.net/medainsaleh.html

A question arises:
If Shuaib is the Midianite prophet and Ishmael the Arabic one then -since Allah only sent a prophet per nation-...
that doesn't leave much room for Muhammad to fit in ! :turban:

by **The Cat** » Fri Oct 08, 2010 6:41 pm

Ibn Rushd wrote:Taken from Jewish Encyclopedia, completed 1907.

Targumim

Spoiler! :

On the relationship between Palestinian Targum (Aramaic translation and commentary on the Bible) to Targum Onkelos (Aquilas):

Although the relation of the Targum Yerushalmi to Onḳelos has already been discussed, it may be added here that the complete Palestinian Targum, as it is found in the pseudo-Jonathan, is not earlier than the seventh century; for it mentions Ayeshah ('A'ishah) (or, according to another reading, Khadija [Ḥadijah]) and Fatima, the wife and daughter of Mohammed, as wives of Ishmael, who was regarded as Mohammed's ancestor.

Pirkei de-Rabbi Eliezer

Jost was the first to point out that in the thirtieth chapter, in which at the end the author distinctly alludes to the three stages of the Mohammedan conquest, that of Arabia, of Spain, and of Rome (830 C.E.), the names of Fatima and Ayesha occur beside that of Ishmael, leading to the conclusion that the book originated in a time when Islam was predominant in Asia Minor.

Hagar

The fact that she selected an Egyptian woman as her son's wife is also counted against her as a proof that her conversion to Judaism was not sincere, for "throw the stick into the air, it will return to its root" (Gen. R. liii., end). This Egyptian wife is explained in the Targum of pseudo-Jonathan to refer to Khadija and Fatima, the widow and the daughter of Mohammed.

Perhaps these three women are just as fictional, and stem from Jewish imagination.

Great insights dear Ibn Rushd, thanks !

The Encyclopedia yields to the Islamic tradition too easily. It's probably the other way around: the Islamic account copied the Pseudo-Jonathan Targum to build a family around the prophet, just like Abbas ibn 'Abd al-Muttalib was invented to give the Abbasid a blood relation with Muhammad. The same goes for Abū Ṭālib ibn ‘Abd al-Muṭṭalib (549?-619?), the so-called husband of Fatima, whom the Shia's hold to be... Imran. :wacko:

The very Bani Hashim clan indicates the same trend stemming out from the sira of Ishaq/Hischam (830AD). Hashim ibn Abd al-Manaf (d.497?) being the so-called great-grandfather of Muhammad. All of them hagiographic and fictitious. In my hypothesis, both Salman the Persian and Muhammad ibn Maslamah (merged to form the traditional prophet) weren't of Arabic descent, so they HAD to be reconfigured...

This plagiarizing from Jewish or Christian sources (often apocryphals) are nothing new...

See: Allah plagiarized
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1125

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legends_and_the_Qur%27an
Example: 19.29 is copied from the Infancy Gospel of Thomas
Jesus speaks in the cradle: The 2nd century's Injilu 't Tufuliyyah or the Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ, contains an Arabic translation of the Infancy Gospel of Thomas and additional narratives. This contains a narrative of Jesus speaking while an infant, also contained in the Qur'an (...): Jesus spake when he was in the cradle, and called out to his mother Mary:— "Verily I am Jesus, the Son of God, the Word, whom thou hast given birth to according to the good tidings given thee by the Angel Gabriel, and my Father hath sent me for the Salvation of the World."

How Mary's account was plagiarized from the apocryphal Book of James and others
http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/09/ ... _qura.html

http://debate.org.uk/topics/history/bib-qur/qurmanu.htm

There are quite a few stories which have their root in second century (A.D.) Jewish apocryphal literature; stories such as the murder of Abel by Cain in sura 5:31-32, borrowed from the Targum of Jonathan-ben-Uzziah and the Mishnah Sanhedrin 4:5; or the story of Abraham, the idols and the fiery furnace in sura 21:51-71, taken from the Midrash Rabbah; or the amusing story found in sura 27:17-44, of Solomon, his talking Hoopoo bird, and the queen of Sheba who lifts her skirt when mistaking a mirrored floor for water, taken from the 2nd Targum of Esther.

The account of Mt. Sinai being lifted up and held over the heads of the Jews as a threat for rejecting the law (sura 7:171) comes from the second century Jewish apocryphal book, The Abodah Sarah. The odd accounts of the early childhood of Jesus in the Qur'an can be traced to a number of Christian apocryphal writings: the Palm tree which provides for the anguish of Mary after Jesus's birth (sura 19:22-26) comes from The Lost Books of the Bible; while the account of the infant Jesus creating birds from clay (sura 3:49) comes from Thomas' Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ. The story of the baby Jesus talking (sura 19:29-33) can be traced to Arabic apocryphal fable from Egypt named The first Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ.

In sura 17:1 we have the report of Muhammad's journey by night from the sacred mosque to the farthest mosque.' From later traditions we find this aya refers to Muhammad ascending up to the seventh heaven, after a miraculous night journey (the Mi'raj) from Mecca to Jerusalem, on a "winged-horse" called Buraq. More detail is furnished us in the Mishkat al Masabih. We can trace the story back to a fictitious book called The Testament of Abraham, written around 200 B.C., in Egypt, and then translated into Greek and Arabic. Another analogous account is that of The Secrets of Enoch ( chapter 1:4-10 and 2:1), which predates the Qur'an by four centuries. Yet a further similar account is largely modelled on the story contained in the old Persian book entitled Arta-i Viraf Namak, telling how a pious young Zoroastrian ascended to the skies, and, on his return, related what he had seen, or professed to have seen (Pfander 1835:295-296).

The Qur'anic description of Hell resembles the descriptions of hell in the Homilies of Ephraim, a Nestorian preacher of the sixth century (Glubb 1971:36). The author of the Qur'an in suras 42:17 and 101:6-9 possibly utilized The Testament of Abraham to teach that a scale or balance will be used on the day of judgment to weigh good and bad deeds in order to determine whether one goes to heaven or to hell.

Can this be the unalterable Words of God?

by **Ibn Rushd** » Sat Oct 09, 2010 6:02 am

One of those links on JE had the Hebrew of Ayesha's name, which appeared in Targum ps.-Jonathan, as Adisha. I tried to find it again, but couldn't. It only proves that her name is reformed from something else.

I think targums, midrash, talmuds, etc. have been vastly underestimated, and underutilized in Middle Eastern history. They are only used to study Judaism, the religion, but not the region's history.

by **yeezevee** » Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:15 pm

Ibn Rushd wrote:One of those links on JE had the Hebrew of Ayesha's name, which appeared in Targum ps.-Jonathan, as Adisha. I tried to find it again, but couldn't. It only proves that her name is reformed from something else.

I think targums, midrash, talmuds, etc. have been vastly underestimated, and underutilized in Middle Eastern history. They are only used to study Judaism, the religion, but not the region's history.

I am curious here dear Ibn Rushd., Are you employing that because "Ayesha's name, which appeared in Targum ps.-Jonathan, as Adisha" hence the story of Aisha/Muhammad (Inlcuding Muhammad himself) in Islam is nothing but a silly story started from Jewish theology and perpetuated by Muslim Robots??

But is it not possible people from all cultures use these historical names from generations to generations irrespective of their ancestors religion, hence Abu Bakr named his daughter as "Ayesha"??

with best wishes
yeezevee

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