AhmedBahgat wrote:http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12683.85;wap2
Why don't you just say your point? Nobody is going to read all of that. What kind of new nonsense is this from you?
AhmedBahgat wrote:http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12683.85;wap2
ygalg wrote:Eagle wrote:Masjid al aqsa is understood traditionaly to be in Jerusalem, it is common historical knowledge irrelevant to the hadith just like Masjid al haram is understood to be the Kaaba.
there already were places of worship in other places aside Jerusalem.
the journey as describe speaks of legitimate place of worship. where Muhammad met Abraham, Moses and Jesus. the prime prophets.
Islam after all claims other religions were corrupted. hence it cannot be Jerusalem as it already be occupied with illegitimate worship foundations. Muhammad would not be ended in corrupted place.
furthermore no trace of Abraham nor of Moses nor of Jesus found when Omar entered Jerusalem.
Jerusalem chosen to be that place (far mosque) it's symbolical. not an actual place. where Muhammad claimed ascended. and it was coined as such much later.
In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful
Glorified be He who took His servant, (Muhammed), for a journey by night from Al-Masjid
Al Haram, (at Mecca), to the Al-Aqsa Mosque, (in Jerusalem), the neighborhood whereof
We have blessed, in order that We might show him some of Our signs. Verily, He is the
All-Hearing, the All-Seeing.
The Holy Qur’an 17:1
Jerusalem is one of the three holiest cities for Muslims, next to Mecca and Al-Madinah. It is
the city where many of the prophets of Islam including Abraham and Jesus, preached and
respected Jerusalem, Palestine, was the first “Qibla”, (direction to which Muslims faced
when praying), during the entire Meccan period and the first 16 months of the Madeenah
period. Muslims consider prayers in Jerusalem’s Masjid Al-Aqsa to be equivalent to 500
prayers in any other ordinary mosque.
With the eternal verses in the Holy Qur’an, God stated the never diminishing significance of
Al-Aqsa Mosque, to where Prophet Muhammed, peace and blessings upon him, (pbuh),
journeyed at night on the winged horse, Al-Buraq, from Mecca. At Al-Aqsa Mosque,
Prophet Muhammed, (pbuh), led all of the prophets of God that came before him in the
submission of prayer, then ascended to Heaven to receive God’s command to the Muslims
to pray 5 times a day. This miraculous journey is known as Al-Israa wal Mi’raaj.
Another point in the importance of Palestine to Muslims is that it also contains the Dome of
the Rock to which the ascension to Heaven began and ended.
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:The Quran does not say where the farthest place is, therefore it needs additional scriptures to identify this.
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Which was never mentioned in the Quran
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:What made people traditionally understand Jerusalem, or even more specifically, Al Aqsa to be the farthest Mosque?
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Somehow, I don't think you're going to answer that.
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:I say it came from the night journey story and I can certainly quote it.
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:So he traveled between two places with no purpose and nothing else happening?? That's a rather pointless journey.
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:And, it didn't say "sign", it said "signs", plural. So what were the other signs?
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:how can Muhammad visit a mosque that was not in existence at that time?
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:You are asking for respect?
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Where in the Quran does it tell us where the old Qibla was?
Eagle wrote:Tradition and known history is not always equal with hadith, just like sunna is not equal with hadith. Hadiths can contain correct history and true sunna but not always.
For example the Quran tells the believers to turn their face towards the sacred mosque in prayers. One does not need to turn to the hadiths to know that the sacred mosque is the Kaaba in Mecca just like one does not turn to hadith to know that the furthest mosque is in Jerusalem. That is called common historical knowledge. There are tons of hadiths that do not contain any sunna and that do not represent history properly.
pr126 wrote:How could there be a mosque in Muhammad's time? Who built it? Were there any practising Muhammadans in Jerusalem needing a mosque?
Eagle wrote:If you admit your ignorance and ask politely for the meaning of masjid, i will answer your question. If not, i dont mind leaving you and those with you in your confusion
pr126 wrote:Don't bother. As for me asking politely, forget it. Your cult is abhorrent to me, no matter what.
that is a good word Eagle., unfortunately that devil appears in human form., Yes God's Mission my Man Muhammad was Prophet "marry as many you want" Indeed the guy was devil in human form and there are/were plenty like that...Eagle wrote:.... that of a blind follower of the devil.
It was always seen as the holiest site of monotheism next to the Kaaba built by Ibrahim and his son Ismail. In Mecca, long before any interraction with the Medinian Jews, the early Muslims prayed in its direction.
Eagle wrote:Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:The Quran does not say where the farthest place is, therefore it needs additional scriptures to identify this.
No, just like there is no need for additional scriptures to know where the sacred mosque (Kaaba) is.
Eagle wrote:Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Which was never mentioned in the Quran
Right, "point C" which is the miraj or ascension up in heaven after the prophet's arrival to his destination in Jerusalem (according to the Quran) is not mentionned
Eagle wrote:Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:What made people traditionally understand Jerusalem, or even more specifically, Al Aqsa to be the farthest Mosque?
It was always seen as the holiest site of monotheism next to the Kaaba built by Ibrahim and his son Ismail.
Eagle wrote: In Mecca, long before any interraction with the Medinian Jews, the early Muslims prayed in its direction.
Eagle wrote:Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Somehow, I don't think you're going to answer that.
Focus on the topic and dont bother with your paranoid tirades
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:I say it came from the night journey story and I can certainly quote it.
Eagle wrote:Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:So he traveled between two places with no purpose and nothing else happening?? That's a rather pointless journey.
Maybe to a disbeliever, a believer will see in this a demonstration of God (whom your likes do not believe in)'s power.
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:And, it didn't say "sign", it said "signs", plural. So what were the other signs?
Eagle wrote:It could refer to a single sign or to several signs.
Eagle wrote: Having educated you as others usually do,
Eagle wrote: it is obvious that even if i take your spin,
Eagle wrote: many supernatural parametres were displayed to the prophet during his journey like speed, time, mode of transportation etc
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:how can Muhammad visit a mosque that was not in existence at that time?
Eagle wrote:If you admit your ignorance and ask politely for the meaning of masjid, i will answer your question. If not, i dont mind leaving you and those with you in your confusionMuhammad bin Lyin wrote:You are asking for respect?
No, i dont expect that from one who probably doesnt respect his mum and dad.
Eagle wrote: By forcing your people to admit ignorance,
Eagle wrote: i am further abasing you.
Eagle wrote:Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Where in the Quran does it tell us where the old Qibla was?
It doesnt, and neither does it tell a Believer where is "the Sacred Mosque" towards which he must direct his prayers. It is called the sunna which was transmitted long before any hadith book was compiled.
Eagle wrote:Tradition and known history is not always equal with hadith, just like sunna is not equal with hadith. Hadiths can contain correct history and true sunna but not always.
For example the Quran tells the believers to turn their face towards the sacred mosque in prayers. One does not need to turn to the hadiths to know that the sacred mosque is the Kaaba in Mecca
Eagle wrote: just like one does not turn to hadith to know that the furthest mosque is in Jerusalem. That is called common historical knowledge.
Eagle wrote: There are tons of hadiths that do not contain any sunna and that do not represent history properly.
pr126 wrote:Eagle wrote:It was always seen as the holiest site of monotheism next to the Kaaba built by Ibrahim and his son Ismail. In Mecca, long before any interraction with the Medinian Jews, the early Muslims prayed in its direction.
Ibrahim and Ishmael never went to Mekka to build the Kaaba. Mekka didn't even exist in Abraham's time.
I am sure the Bible would have mention it If he did cross a vast desert with a young boy just to build a pagan stone edifice.
pr126 wrote:This also raises a question why the monotheist Abraham would become a stone worshiper, attaching the meteor to a pagan building?
See how idiotic this lie is made up?
pr126 wrote:The Quran even says that Adam built the Kaaba first with a [white] stone brought with him from heaven. Which turned black because menstruating women touching it.
(Adam was cast out of the garden of eden, not from heaven. ) Muhammad really screwed up those bible stories!
Allah knows best nothing.
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:that's because of his invasion of Mecca
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:so just like the night journey and the Battle of Badr, nobody needed any detail
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:No, I meant the name of the Mosque you mentioned
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:And when did that idea of the Kaaba being built by Abraham start?
Eagle wrote:The progeny of Ismail settled in the area from Havilah (Yemen) unto Shur (near gulf of Aqabah at the north east end of Red sea) Gen21:21,25:9-18, which essentially is the Hijaz where the descendants of Ismail have always identified themselves in, whether in ancient history or today.
The Adnanites of whom the prophet Muhammad was a descendant, were counscious of Ibrahim having constructed the Kaaba. They performed circumcision and rites that were similar to the Israelite rites of the altar sacrifice even before the coming of Muhammad. The hadith, which are based upon oral tradition and oral tradition in any culture, precedes the writing of that tradition, abounds with evidence such as the pre-Islamic poems of Umayyah ibn Abi as-Salt speaking of the trial of the sacrifice which Ibrahim and Ismail went through.
One interesting historical narration is that, per Ibn Kathir, the horns of the ram sacrificed in substitution of Ismail were religiously preserved in the Kaaba and handed down from generation to generation, upto the times of Abdullah bin Zubair. When Hajjaj besieged the Kaaba in 692, and destroyed part of it, the horns too were destroyed. Ibn Abbas and Sheibi both had seen the horns. Even prior to Islam, Abdul Muttalib, during the siege of Mecca by Abraha, recited a prayer which clearly acknowledges that they recognized the House as belonging to Allah alone: "O Lord! A man protects his family, so protect Your people. Let not their cross and their strength overpower You. If You want to leave our Qiblah at their mercy, then do as You please."
The history records this legacy of Ibrahim and Ismail, especially with the hanifs, those who were the seekers of the pure way of Ibrahim 3:67, who renounced Idolatry and the consumption of meat slaughtered in the name of idols as well as other pagan rituals. They were non-Jewish, non-Christian Arabian monotheists although some of them, such as Waraqa bin Nawfal, would convert to one of the 2 faiths as a result of their search. These small groups of Meccan men and women detested the use of the Kaaba by the polytheists and kept their practice of religion monotheistic. They affirmed that the Abrahamic legacy had been distorted beyond recognition, whether by the Jews, Christians or Ishmaelites, and these personalities were seeking a return to the pristine religion. The traditions mention their names and how their ways of life would lead them to harassement by the Idol worshipers.
They include names like Uthman ibn Huwayrith, Ubaydullah bin Jahsh, Zayd ibn Amr ibn Nawfal Al-Nabighah al Ja'adi etc, as well as Muhammad the orphan who essentially raised himself, who never worshiped the idols and would retreat away from the pagan environement to contemplate as some of his forefathers such as his great grand father the hanif Hashim ibn Abd al-Manaf would do, until his prophetic call.
In the pre-Islamic poems of Umayyah ibn Abi as-Salt, the haniffiya, the way of Ibrahim, is mentioned by name and Ibn Ishaq quotes it in connection with Abraha's attack on the Kaaba. Sirmah ibn Anas of the Banu Adyy ibn Al Najjar was another hanif, per the work of Isabah, that renounced idolatry and became a hanif and that he worshipped only the God of Abraham. There are countless sources that connect Abraham with the Arabs and those that desired to return to his ways were considered hanifs. This whole tradition revolved especially around the legacy of the Kaaba.
The Arab tradition on this point is so strong and of such old standing that the Quran every now and then refers to it as a matter of undoubted history, and the Arabs never contended with it.
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Prayed in the direction of Jerusalem, until the Jews still did not accept Islam even after Muhammad's overtures, and then, the prayer direction changes from Jerusalem to Mecca
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:and suddenly here comes a "test" from Allah to see who is faithful and who is not.
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Thanks for making me look like a prophet
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:OK, so God does this, and this is "A" "sign" (singular)
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Does it say the word "signs" twice in that verse?
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:What is the word for what it is showing "from our signs"?? Is it saying that he will be shown a "thing" from our signs? Is it saying that it is showing him a "sign" from our signs?
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Excuse me, but is the word "sign" in that verse singular or plural?
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:I most certainly do. In fact, I had to be my Dad's nurse for the last 6 months of his life, which even included helping him with going to the bathroom, of which I do not wish to go into detail. So what is the matter with your head that you would say something so wrong like that?
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Excuse me, but who are "my people"?
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:No you are not, you are admitting defeat.
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:OK, so why didn't you simply say that in the first place?
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:So was the sunna written before 17:1?
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:How did they know what 17:1 was talking about when Muhammad uttered it?
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Well sure, because Muhammad told them this was the sacred Mosque after he smashed all of the no compulsion in religion idols.
They all need proper explanations.. an I don't have time. But Muslims faced Jerusalem in Mecca??The Muslims faced Jerusalem in Mecca, long before there was any Jewish involvement in their life
The Adnanites of whom the prophet Muhammad was a descendant, were counscious of Ibrahim having constructed the Kaaba. They performed circumcision and rites that were similar to the Israelite rites of the altar sacrifice even before the coming of Muhammad.
Eagle wrote:Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:that's because of his invasion of Mecca
You mean before Mecca's return to the way of Ibrahim as prophecised in the earliest days of Islam,
Eagle wrote:Anyway, the answer is, no, what I mean is the treaty that Muhammad made with the MeccansMuhammad bin Lyin wrote:so just like the night journey and the Battle of Badr, nobody needed any detail
The Quran gives the relevant details of these two events to convey the point it wants to convey
Eagle wrote:Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:No, I meant the name of the Mosque you mentioned
Yes masjid al aqsa, a location in Jerusalem that the early Muslims faced in prayer
Eagle wrote:Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:And when did that idea of the Kaaba being built by Abraham start?
Seems your memory is short. Here is the tape i once played to you and your people in another thread:<SNIP>
Eagle wrote:The progeny of Ismail settled in the area from Havilah (Yemen) unto Shur (near gulf of Aqabah at the north east end of Red sea) Gen21:21,25:9-18, which essentially is the Hijaz where the descendants of Ismail have always identified themselves in, whether in ancient history or today.
The Adnanites of whom the prophet Muhammad was a descendant, were counscious of Ibrahim having constructed the Kaaba.
Eagle wrote: They performed circumcision and rites that were similar to the Israelite rites of the altar sacrifice even before the coming of Muhammad.
Not only Citation is required for this tall claim, citation of frequency of people actually practicing this is required. Otherwise, it's a made up Musim lie.
Eagle wrote: The hadith, which are based upon oral tradition and oral tradition in any culture,
Eagle wrote: precedes the writing of that tradition, abounds with evidence such as the pre-Islamic poems of Umayyah ibn Abi as-Salt speaking of the trial of the sacrifice which Ibrahim and Ismail went through.
One interesting historical narration is that, per Ibn Kathir,
Eagle wrote: the horns of the ram sacrificed in substitution of Ismail were religiously preserved in the Kaaba and handed down from generation to generation, upto the times of Abdullah bin Zubair. When Hajjaj besieged the Kaaba in 692, and destroyed part of it, the horns too were destroyed. Ibn Abbas and Sheibi both had seen the horns. Even prior to Islam, Abdul Muttalib, during the siege of Mecca by Abraha, recited a prayer which clearly acknowledges that they recognized the House as belonging to Allah alone: "O Lord! A man protects his family, so protect Your people. Let not their cross and their strength overpower You. If You want to leave our Qiblah at their mercy, then do as You please."
Eagle wrote:The history records this legacy of Ibrahim and Ismail, especially with the hanifs,
Eagle wrote: those who were the seekers of the pure way of Ibrahim 3:67, who renounced Idolatry and the consumption of meat slaughtered in the name of idols as well as other pagan rituals. They were non-Jewish, non-Christian Arabian monotheists although some of them, such as Waraqa bin Nawfal, would convert to one of the 2 faiths as a result of their search. These small groups of Meccan men and women detested the use of the Kaaba by the polytheists and kept their practice of religion monotheistic. They affirmed that the Abrahamic legacy had been distorted beyond recognition, whether by the Jews, Christians or Ishmaelites, and these personalities were seeking a return to the pristine religion. The traditions mention their names and how their ways of life would lead them to harassement by the Idol worshipers.
They include names like Uthman ibn Huwayrith, Ubaydullah bin Jahsh, Zayd ibn Amr ibn Nawfal Al-Nabighah al Ja'adi etc, as well as Muhammad the orphan who essentially raised himself, who never worshiped the idols and would retreat away from the pagan environement to contemplate as some of his forefathers such as his great grand father the hanif Hashim ibn Abd al-Manaf would do, until his prophetic call.
In the pre-Islamic poems of Umayyah ibn Abi as-Salt, the haniffiya, the way of Ibrahim, is mentioned by name and Ibn Ishaq quotes it in connection with Abraha's attack on the Kaaba. Sirmah ibn Anas of the Banu Adyy ibn Al Najjar was another hanif, per the work of Isabah, that renounced idolatry and became a hanif and that he worshipped only the God of Abraham. There are countless sources that connect Abraham with the Arabs and those that desired to return to his ways were considered hanifs. This whole tradition revolved especially around the legacy of the Kaaba.
The Arab tradition on this point is so strong and of such old standing that the Quran every now and then refers to it as a matter of undoubted history, and the Arabs never contended with it.
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Prayed in the direction of Jerusalem, until the Jews still did not accept Islam even after Muhammad's overtures, and then, the prayer direction changes from Jerusalem to Mecca
Eagle wrote:Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:and suddenly here comes a "test" from Allah to see who is faithful and who is not.
Seems you're mixing your wishful thinking with the truth once again. The test regarding the qibla had nothing to do with the people of the book and started long before the Muslims interracted with the Jews. The Quran reports how hard the test was for the Muslims and the prophet Muhammad in particular.
Eagle wrote:Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Thanks for making me look like a prophet
Well you do have the holy spirit in you like each christian alleges, you must therefore be a prophet according to your scriptures.
Eagle wrote:Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:OK, so God does this, and this is "A" "sign" (singular)
Your point beingMuhammad bin Lyin wrote:Does it say the word "signs" twice in that verse?
Once, what is your point
Eagle wrote:Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:What is the word for what it is showing "from our signs"?? Is it saying that he will be shown a "thing" from our signs? Is it saying that it is showing him a "sign" from our signs?
Explain yourself properly.
Eagle wrote: As for the verse itself, it is simple, it says the purpose of the journey was to show him from the signs of Allah.
Eagle wrote: It could be one or several.
Eagle wrote: From all my cars i can show you one or two. Both interpretations fit the information given in the verse, without any need to bring the miraj (ascension) story.
Eagle wrote:Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Excuse me, but is the word "sign" in that verse singular or plural?
Another idiotic comment. The word must be in the plural, because God has many signs to show and the journey was one among those signs.
Eagle wrote: The journey itself was a sign from God's signs. Do you understand now.
Eagle wrote:Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:I most certainly do. In fact, I had to be my Dad's nurse for the last 6 months of his life, which even included helping him with going to the bathroom, of which I do not wish to go into detail. So what is the matter with your head that you would say something so wrong like that?
Your public behavior and paranoia?
Eagle wrote:Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Excuse me, but who are "my people"?
Those who belong to your umma
Eagle wrote:Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:No you are not, you are admitting defeat.
How exactly
Eagle wrote:Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:OK, so why didn't you simply say that in the first place?
You and those with you have been educated a few pages back already,
Eagle wrote: that the information as to the location of the sacred mosque does not depend on the hadith
Eagle wrote:Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:So was the sunna written before 17:1?
Sunna is the oral explanation of the Quranic commandements 16:44, long before the compilation of any hadith
Eagle wrote:Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:How did they know what 17:1 was talking about when Muhammad uttered it?
Obviously the journey had already occured. What is your point
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Well sure, because Muhammad told them this was the sacred Mosque after he smashed all of the no compulsion in religion idols.
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:What, exactly, do you mean by the earliest days of Islam?
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:And you and I both know that the Quran references mean very little without the additional, detailed info.
Eagle wrote:Other sources of corruption came from...story-tellers and reciters of fables attaching their rich imagination to the narrations...
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:I can't understand why you think that lying is OK.
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Actually, it was the Jews. But, Yes to the rest of your twisted post. So why did we even have to have that clarification when we both knew exactly what I was talking about??
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Since when did it go from "Quran only" to now including modern authors?
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Citation please?
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:You've rejected the authenticity of the hadiths, and now when you need them, there are "certain parts" that are now true, and they are true as you need them to be true.
Eagle wrote:Tradition and known history is not always equal with hadith, just like sunna is not equal with hadith. Hadiths can contain correct history and true sunna but not always.
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Yes, Kathir is good when needed, and denied when not conveniently needed
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Who wrote that??? Why didn't you quote it???
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:So now, if a historical accounting of something meets your needs, it's true. But if it doesn't meet your needs, then this is due to the mischief of certain people.
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:And why was that?
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:what was Allah finding out from this test?
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Well, i suppose
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:I asked you a question, and it's right above and in writing. So why are you asking me to explain myself properly
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:You said the journey was "A" sign, as in singular. Now the liar adjusts his story. Now it IS INDEED "signs".
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:You said "sign", you liar.
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:One car means one sign or "sign", and "signs" means multiple cars or signs.
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Then why did you use the word "sign" in singular fashion?
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Believe me, these games will not work.
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Why should it be considered to be paranoia when I actually continually prove my point and you continually run out of answers?
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Send a message back to the cockroach farm that it doesn't work in this kitchen.
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:By introducing a term that has no specific bearing as to get the conversation to go somewhere else.
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Quote how you specifically spelled it out.
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:What does it depend on?? If you think it doesn't depend on the hadiths, then that means you KNOW what it DOES depend on
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:I asked you very clearly and very plainly whether the sunna that you raised in interest to this particular topic, was written before 17:1 was recited or not.
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:and give us a straight yes or no answer:?"??
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:What did they know about the journey
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:When was the first time that the Kaaba was referred to as the sacred mosque?
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:you are an absolute disgrace.
AhmedBahgat wrote:Lol, Brother Eagle just slam dunked ugly inmate bin fagin; this must be added to my slam dunk show:Slam Dunk #97
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