Praying/Fasting/Hajj in Quran?

[Muhammad bin Lyin]

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?t ... 83.85;wap2

Why don't you just say your point? Nobody is going to read all of that. What kind of new nonsense is this from you?

[Muhammad bin Lyin]

Some more interesting facts.

638 AD: Muslim Arabs under the leadership of Caliph Umar conquer Jerusalem from the Byzantine Empire.[1]
687–691 AD: The Dome of the Rock is built by Caliph Abd al-Malik.[1]

[Muhammad bin Lyin]

Masjid al aqsa is understood traditionaly to be in Jerusalem, it is common historical knowledge irrelevant to the hadith just like Masjid al haram is understood to be the Kaaba.

there already were places of worship in other places aside Jerusalem.
the journey as describe speaks of legitimate place of worship. where Muhammad met Abraham, Moses and Jesus. the prime prophets.

Islam after all claims other religions were corrupted. hence it cannot be Jerusalem as it already be occupied with illegitimate worship foundations. Muhammad would not be ended in corrupted place.

furthermore no trace of Abraham nor of Moses nor of Jesus found when Omar entered Jerusalem.
Jerusalem chosen to be that place (far mosque) it's symbolical. not an actual place. where Muhammad claimed ascended. and it was coined as such much later.

Precisely.

[Muhammad bin Lyin]

http://www.jerusalemites.org/jerusalem/islam/41.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful

Glorified be He who took His servant, (Muhammed), for a journey by night from Al-Masjid

Al Haram, (at Mecca), to the Al-Aqsa Mosque, (in Jerusalem), the neighborhood whereof

We have blessed, in order that We might show him some of Our signs. Verily, He is the

All-Hearing, the All-Seeing.


The Holy Qur’an 17:1

Jerusalem is one of the three holiest cities for Muslims, next to Mecca and Al-Madinah. It is

the city where many of the prophets of Islam including Abraham and Jesus, preached and

respected Jerusalem, Palestine, was the first “Qibla”, (direction to which Muslims faced

when praying), during the entire Meccan period and the first 16 months of the Madeenah

period. Muslims consider prayers in Jerusalem’s Masjid Al-Aqsa to be equivalent to 500

prayers in any other ordinary mosque.



With the eternal verses in the Holy Qur’an, God stated the never diminishing significance of

Al-Aqsa Mosque, to where Prophet Muhammed, peace and blessings upon him, (pbuh),

journeyed at night on the winged horse, Al-Buraq, from Mecca. At Al-Aqsa Mosque,

Prophet Muhammed, (pbuh), led all of the prophets of God that came before him in the

submission of prayer, then ascended to Heaven to receive God’s command to the Muslims

to pray 5 times a day. This miraculous journey is known as Al-Israa wal Mi’raaj.

Another point in the importance of Palestine to Muslims is that it also contains the Dome of

the Rock to which the ascension to Heaven began and ended.

Note, Mi'raaj literally means "the ladder"

[Muhammad bin Lyin]

2:143 (Y. Ali) Thus, have We made of you an Ummat justly balanced, that ye might be witnesses over the nations, and the Messenger a witness over yourselves; and We appointed the Qibla to which thou wast used, only to test those who followed the Messenger from those who would turn on their heels (From the Faith). Indeed it was (A change) momentous, except to those guided by Allah. And never would Allah Make your faith of no effect. For Allah is to all people Most surely full of kindness, Most Merciful.

Where in the Quran does it tell us where the old Qibla was?

[Eagle]

The Quran does not say where the farthest place is, therefore it needs additional scriptures to identify this.

No, just like there is no need for additional scriptures to know where the sacred mosque (Kaaba) is.

Which was never mentioned in the Quran

Right, "point C" which is the miraj or ascension up in heaven after the prophet's arrival to his destination in Jerusalem (according to the Quran) is not mentionned

What made people traditionally understand Jerusalem, or even more specifically, Al Aqsa to be the farthest Mosque?

It was always seen as the holiest site of monotheism next to the Kaaba built by Ibrahim and his son Ismail. In Mecca, long before any interraction with the Medinian Jews, the early Muslims prayed in its direction.

Somehow, I don't think you're going to answer that.

Focus on the topic and dont bother with your paranoid tirades

I say it came from the night journey story and I can certainly quote it.

The night journey as reported in the hadith mentions it, just like many hadith unrelated to the night journey mention it as being in Jerusalem.

So he traveled between two places with no purpose and nothing else happening?? That's a rather pointless journey.

Maybe to a disbeliever, a believer will see in this a demonstration of God (whom your likes do not believe in)'s power.

And, it didn't say "sign", it said "signs", plural. So what were the other signs?

It doesnt just say "signs", it says min ayaatina/from our signs. It could refer to a single sign or to several signs. Having educated you as others usually do, it is obvious that even if i take your spin, many supernatural parametres were displayed to the prophet during his journey like speed, time, mode of transportation etc

how can Muhammad visit a mosque that was not in existence at that time?

If you admit your ignorance and ask politely for the meaning of masjid, i will answer your question. If not, i dont mind leaving you and those with you in your confusion

You are asking for respect?

No, i dont expect that from one who probably doesnt respect his mum and dad. By forcing your people to admit ignorance, i am further abasing you.

Where in the Quran does it tell us where the old Qibla was?

It doesnt, and neither does it tell a Believer where is "the Sacred Mosque" towards which he must direct his prayers. It is called the sunna which was transmitted long before any hadith book was compiled.

again:

Tradition and known history is not always equal with hadith, just like sunna is not equal with hadith. Hadiths can contain correct history and true sunna but not always.
For example the Quran tells the believers to turn their face towards the sacred mosque in prayers. One does not need to turn to the hadiths to know that the sacred mosque is the Kaaba in Mecca just like one does not turn to hadith to know that the furthest mosque is in Jerusalem. That is called common historical knowledge. There are tons of hadiths that do not contain any sunna and that do not represent history properly.

[Eagle]

How could there be a mosque in Muhammad's time? Who built it? Were there any practising Muhammadans in Jerusalem needing a mosque? :wacko:

If you admit your ignorance and ask politely for the meaning of masjid, i will answer your question. If not, i dont mind leaving you and those with you in your confusion

Don't bother. As for me asking politely, forget it. Your cult is abhorrent to me, no matter what.

In short you're admitting that no matter what the answer to your ignorance is, your position will remain the same; that of a blind follower of the devil.

[yeezevee]

.... that of a blind follower of the devil.

that is a good word Eagle., unfortunately that devil appears in human form., Yes God's Mission my Man Muhammad was Prophet "marry as many you want" Indeed the guy was devil in human form and there are/were plenty like that...

[pr126]

Eagle wrote:

It was always seen as the holiest site of monotheism next to the Kaaba built by Ibrahim and his son Ismail. In Mecca, long before any interraction with the Medinian Jews, the early Muslims prayed in its direction.

Ibrahim and Ishmael never went to Mekka to build the Kaaba. Mekka didn't even exist in Abraham's time.
I am sure the Bible would have mention it If he did cross a vast desert with a young boy just to build a pagan stone edifice.
This also raises a question why the monotheist Abraham would become a stone worshiper, attaching the meteor to a pagan building?
See how idiotic this lie is made up?

The Quran even says that Adam built the Kaaba first with a [white] stone brought with him from heaven. Which turned black because menstruating women touching it.
(Adam was cast out of the garden of eden, not from heaven. ) Muhammad really screwed up those bible stories!

Allah knows best nothing.

[Muhammad bin Lyin]

The Quran does not say where the farthest place is, therefore it needs additional scriptures to identify this.

No, just like there is no need for additional scriptures to know where the sacred mosque (Kaaba) is.

Well, that's because of his invasion of Mecca, so just like the night journey and the Battle of Badr, nobody needed any detail, as this was merely supposed to be a reminder of an already known event.

Which was never mentioned in the Quran

Right, "point C" which is the miraj or ascension up in heaven after the prophet's arrival to his destination in Jerusalem (according to the Quran) is not mentionned

No, I meant the name of the Mosque you mentioned. Thanks for conspicuously wiping that part put in your response. See?? See how inherently dishonest you are?? and it doesn't even register with your mind for even one second. You have no shame about it. That's terrible.

What made people traditionally understand Jerusalem, or even more specifically, Al Aqsa to be the farthest Mosque?

It was always seen as the holiest site of monotheism next to the Kaaba built by Ibrahim and his son Ismail.

And when did that idea of the Kaaba being built by Abraham start?? Legitimate, objective, historical references please. Thank you.

In Mecca, long before any interraction with the Medinian Jews, the early Muslims prayed in its direction.

Prayed in the direction of Jerusalem, until the Jews still did not accept Islam even after Muhammad's overtures, and then, the prayer direction changes from Jerusalem to Mecca, and suddenly here comes a "test" from Allah to see who is faithful and who is not.

Somehow, I don't think you're going to answer that.

Focus on the topic and dont bother with your paranoid tirades

Like I said... Thanks for making me look like a prophet.

I say it came from the night journey story and I can certainly quote it.

The night journey as reported in the hadith mentions it, just like many hadith unrelated to the night journey mention it as being in Jerusalem.[/quote]

Correct, and THAT'S where one can ascertain what the farthest Mosque is and be clear about what the Quran is saying.

So he traveled between two places with no purpose and nothing else happening?? That's a rather pointless journey.

Maybe to a disbeliever, a believer will see in this a demonstration of God (whom your likes do not believe in)'s power.

OK, so God does this, and this is "A" "sign" (singular)

And, it didn't say "sign", it said "signs", plural. So what were the other signs?

It doesnt just say "signs", it says min ayaatina/from our signs.[/quote]

Does it say the word "signs" twice in that verse?? What is the word for what it is showing "from our signs"?? Is it saying that he will be shown a "thing" from our signs? Is it saying that it is showing him a "sign" from our signs?? Well?? Is it?? Is it?? Wouldn't that require the same word to be used twice? Let's go, answer it. And, of course, you will not, simply because you are lying once again. Lying for Islam is almost like a side occupation for you, it seems.

It could refer to a single sign or to several signs.

Excuse me, but is the word "sign" in that verse singular or plural?? And we both know that you will not give an honest, straightforward answer to that simple question because you are inherently dishonest. And i love your participation here, because it allows me to prove, in front of everyopne, all of my claims about what liars Muslims are. So I do thank you for that.

Having educated you as others usually do,

Excuse me, but we are going to reword that sentence right now. Having attempted to scam me as other Muslims usually do....There. that's much better. THAT'S accurate.

it is obvious that even if i take your spin,

You have not explained why my take is a spin yet so you can't call it that yet, all you have done is to have your spin fail. So when your spin fails, your mind goes into dishonesty mode caused by desperation, and then arbitrarily tries to flip the tables for no demonstrated reason, and your sense of reasoning is so warped, that you don't even recognize the problem with your methodology of reasoning

many supernatural parametres were displayed to the prophet during his journey like speed, time, mode of transportation etc

How do you know that?? Did he say that?? How do you know that he didn't just close his eyes and open them a second later and see the Jerusalem Mosque?? But look carefully and closely at what you just did. You might as well have admitted that you make all of this stuff up for yourself as you go along. A true follower of the 20% profit, because that's what he did as well.

how can Muhammad visit a mosque that was not in existence at that time?

If you admit your ignorance and ask politely for the meaning of masjid, i will answer your question. If not, i dont mind leaving you and those with you in your confusion

You are asking for respect?

No, i dont expect that from one who probably doesnt respect his mum and dad.

I most certainly do. In fact, I had to be my Dad's nurse for the last 6 months of his life, which even included helping him with going to the bathroom, of which I do not wish to go into detail. So what is the matter with your head that you would say something so wrong like that?? Think about it. Ask yourself, "what is the matter with me that I would say something like that"?? How could i be so wrong??

By forcing your people to admit ignorance,

Excuse me, but who are "my people"???? What is the matter with your head??

i am further abasing you.

No you are not, you are admitting defeat. You can say it out loud, or you can say it with the word "abasing". How many times have i told you that people are not stupid and gullible here and that this deceptive nonsense simply does not and will not work?? How many times?? And yet you continually attempt it to no avail, ever.

Where in the Quran does it tell us where the old Qibla was?

It doesnt, and neither does it tell a Believer where is "the Sacred Mosque" towards which he must direct his prayers. It is called the sunna which was transmitted long before any hadith book was compiled.

OK, so why didn't you simply say that in the first place?? And I know why. It's because you are being purposefully evasive, and there's only one reason for someone to be evasive, and that is because there's something they don't want to say. Now, your excuse is the sunna.
OK, great. So was the sunna written before 17:1?? How did they know what 17:1 was talking about when Muhammad uttered it??

Tradition and known history is not always equal with hadith, just like sunna is not equal with hadith. Hadiths can contain correct history and true sunna but not always.
For example the Quran tells the believers to turn their face towards the sacred mosque in prayers. One does not need to turn to the hadiths to know that the sacred mosque is the Kaaba in Mecca

Well sure, because Muhammad told them this was the sacred Mosque after he smashed all of the no compulsion in religion idols. So we have Muhammad's words involved.

just like one does not turn to hadith to know that the furthest mosque is in Jerusalem. That is called common historical knowledge.

Your right, and the source of this is the night journey story, and you have yet to offer an alternate source.

There are tons of hadiths that do not contain any sunna and that do not represent history properly.

That has nothing to do with the specific issue we are talking about (within) this thread, and for you to attempt to divert like that shows a degree of desperation on your part,

[Muhammad bin Lyin]

Eagle wrote:

It was always seen as the holiest site of monotheism next to the Kaaba built by Ibrahim and his son Ismail. In Mecca, long before any interraction with the Medinian Jews, the early Muslims prayed in its direction.

Ibrahim and Ishmael never went to Mekka to build the Kaaba. Mekka didn't even exist in Abraham's time.
I am sure the Bible would have mention it If he did cross a vast desert with a young boy just to build a pagan stone edifice.

Of course, that's just common sense. In fact, if the Jews really wanted to willfully and purposefully corrupt their scriptures as the lying 20% profit and lying Muslims of today try to claim, it would have left any mention of Ishmael at all out of the Bible. Why did they keep some parts, but not others, when they could have easily wiped it out all together if the stinking, lying, psychotic Muslim lies are true?? This is something a 5th grader could reason out, and yet adult Muslims cannot. So what does that say???

This also raises a question why the monotheist Abraham would become a stone worshiper, attaching the meteor to a pagan building?
See how idiotic this lie is made up?

Of course. Any 5th grader could see that.

The Quran even says that Adam built the Kaaba first with a [white] stone brought with him from heaven. Which turned black because menstruating women touching it.
(Adam was cast out of the garden of eden, not from heaven. ) Muhammad really screwed up those bible stories!

Allah knows best nothing.

[Muhammad bin Lyin]

But let's take a moment to step back and look at the larger picture. Look at the general reasoning skills (or lack thereof) of Muslims that come on this thread. What does that say?? Step back and try to understand where they are really coming from and it gets all the more alarming.

[Eagle]

that's because of his invasion of Mecca

You mean before Mecca's return to the way of Ibrahim as prophecised in the earliest days of Islam, the first Muslims did not know where was the sacred mosque

so just like the night journey and the Battle of Badr, nobody needed any detail

The Quran gives the relevant details of these two events to convey the point it wants to convey

No, I meant the name of the Mosque you mentioned

Yes masjid al aqsa, a location in Jerusalem that the early Muslims faced in prayer

And when did that idea of the Kaaba being built by Abraham start?

Seems your memory is short. Here is the tape i once played to you and your people in another thread:

The progeny of Ismail settled in the area from Havilah (Yemen) unto Shur (near gulf of Aqabah at the north east end of Red sea) Gen21:21,25:9-18, which essentially is the Hijaz where the descendants of Ismail have always identified themselves in, whether in ancient history or today.

The Adnanites of whom the prophet Muhammad was a descendant, were counscious of Ibrahim having constructed the Kaaba. They performed circumcision and rites that were similar to the Israelite rites of the altar sacrifice even before the coming of Muhammad. The hadith, which are based upon oral tradition and oral tradition in any culture, precedes the writing of that tradition, abounds with evidence such as the pre-Islamic poems of Umayyah ibn Abi as-Salt speaking of the trial of the sacrifice which Ibrahim and Ismail went through.

One interesting historical narration is that, per Ibn Kathir, the horns of the ram sacrificed in substitution of Ismail were religiously preserved in the Kaaba and handed down from generation to generation, upto the times of Abdullah bin Zubair. When Hajjaj besieged the Kaaba in 692, and destroyed part of it, the horns too were destroyed. Ibn Abbas and Sheibi both had seen the horns. Even prior to Islam, Abdul Muttalib, during the siege of Mecca by Abraha, recited a prayer which clearly acknowledges that they recognized the House as belonging to Allah alone: "O Lord! A man protects his family, so protect Your people. Let not their cross and their strength overpower You. If You want to leave our Qiblah at their mercy, then do as You please."

The history records this legacy of Ibrahim and Ismail, especially with the hanifs, those who were the seekers of the pure way of Ibrahim 3:67, who renounced Idolatry and the consumption of meat slaughtered in the name of idols as well as other pagan rituals. They were non-Jewish, non-Christian Arabian monotheists although some of them, such as Waraqa bin Nawfal, would convert to one of the 2 faiths as a result of their search. These small groups of Meccan men and women detested the use of the Kaaba by the polytheists and kept their practice of religion monotheistic. They affirmed that the Abrahamic legacy had been distorted beyond recognition, whether by the Jews, Christians or Ishmaelites, and these personalities were seeking a return to the pristine religion. The traditions mention their names and how their ways of life would lead them to harassement by the Idol worshipers.
They include names like Uthman ibn Huwayrith, Ubaydullah bin Jahsh, Zayd ibn Amr ibn Nawfal Al-Nabighah al Ja'adi etc, as well as Muhammad the orphan who essentially raised himself, who never worshiped the idols and would retreat away from the pagan environement to contemplate as some of his forefathers such as his great grand father the hanif Hashim ibn Abd al-Manaf would do, until his prophetic call.

In the pre-Islamic poems of Umayyah ibn Abi as-Salt, the haniffiya, the way of Ibrahim, is mentioned by name and Ibn Ishaq quotes it in connection with Abraha's attack on the Kaaba. Sirmah ibn Anas of the Banu Adyy ibn Al Najjar was another hanif, per the work of Isabah, that renounced idolatry and became a hanif and that he worshipped only the God of Abraham. There are countless sources that connect Abraham with the Arabs and those that desired to return to his ways were considered hanifs. This whole tradition revolved especially around the legacy of the Kaaba.

The Arab tradition on this point is so strong and of such old standing that the Quran every now and then refers to it as a matter of undoubted history, and the Arabs never contended with it.

Prayed in the direction of Jerusalem, until the Jews still did not accept Islam even after Muhammad's overtures, and then, the prayer direction changes from Jerusalem to Mecca

The Muslims faced Jerusalem in Mecca, long before there was any Jewish involvement in their life

and suddenly here comes a "test" from Allah to see who is faithful and who is not.

Seems you're mixing your wishful thinking with the truth once again. The test regarding the qibla had nothing to do with the people of the book and started long before the Muslims interracted with the Jews. The Quran reports how hard the test was for the Muslims and the prophet Muhammad in particular.

Thanks for making me look like a prophet

Well you do have the holy spirit in you like each christian alleges, you must therefore be a prophet according to your scriptures.

OK, so God does this, and this is "A" "sign" (singular)

Your point being

Does it say the word "signs" twice in that verse?

Once, what is your point

What is the word for what it is showing "from our signs"?? Is it saying that he will be shown a "thing" from our signs? Is it saying that it is showing him a "sign" from our signs?

Explain yourself properly. As for the verse itself, it is simple, it says the purpose of the journey was to show him from the signs of Allah. It could be one or several. From all my cars i can show you one or two. Both interpretations fit the information given in the verse, without any need to bring the miraj (ascension) story.

Excuse me, but is the word "sign" in that verse singular or plural?

Another idiotic comment. The word must be in the plural, because God has many signs to show and the journey was one among those signs. The journey itself was a sign from God's signs. Do you understand now.

I most certainly do. In fact, I had to be my Dad's nurse for the last 6 months of his life, which even included helping him with going to the bathroom, of which I do not wish to go into detail. So what is the matter with your head that you would say something so wrong like that?

Your public behavior and paranoia?

Excuse me, but who are "my people"?

Those who belong to your umma

No you are not, you are admitting defeat.

How exactly

OK, so why didn't you simply say that in the first place?

You and those with you have been educated a few pages back already, that the information as to the location of the sacred mosque does not depend on the hadith

So was the sunna written before 17:1?

Sunna is the oral explanation of the Quranic commandements 16:44, long before the compilation of any hadith

How did they know what 17:1 was talking about when Muhammad uttered it?

Obviously the journey had already occured. What is your point

Well sure, because Muhammad told them this was the sacred Mosque after he smashed all of the no compulsion in religion idols.

The Kaaba was referred as the sacred mosque long before the conquest of Mecca. You are all over the place once again.

[yeezevee]

Eagle says this and many more such statements in the above post

The Muslims faced Jerusalem in Mecca, long before there was any Jewish involvement in their life

They all need proper explanations.. an I don't have time. But Muslims faced Jerusalem in Mecca??
what is that Eagle? Was Jerusalem a street corner in Mecca during Muhammad's Time?
Or do you mean to say Muslim living in Mecca faced Jerusalem during prayer times?
Or do you mean to say, Jews living in and around Mecca at that time were actually in principle Muslims as per definition of Muhammad Islam??

Confusing statement from you Eagle..

The Adnanites of whom the prophet Muhammad was a descendant, were counscious of Ibrahim having constructed the Kaaba. They performed circumcision and rites that were similar to the Israelite rites of the altar sacrifice even before the coming of Muhammad.

I see so prophet Muhammad was a descendant of Adnanites and Adnanites were descendants of Ibrahim, So everything Jews has now is actually M r . Muhammad's Property as Muhammad Prophet of Islam was descendants of Ibrahim..

Good Logic Eagle.. very good logic., In fact you should extend that logic to before Prophet Ibrahim. Prophet Muhammad ancestors before Ibrahim were Monkeys of Africa. Hell why only Al-asqa Masjid ?? Whole Jerusalem Hence whole planet belongs to Prophet of Islam and his followers.. ..(Masjid...Masjid..Masjid (Interesting word)

[Muhammad bin Lyin]

that's because of his invasion of Mecca

You mean before Mecca's return to the way of Ibrahim as prophecised in the earliest days of Islam,

What, exactly, do you mean by the earliest days of Islam?

Anyway, the answer is, no, what I mean is the treaty that Muhammad made with the Meccans

so just like the night journey and the Battle of Badr, nobody needed any detail

The Quran gives the relevant details of these two events to convey the point it wants to convey

And you and I both know that the Quran references mean very little without the additional, detailed info. I can't understand why you think that lying is OK. But maybe I can understand it, if I remember that you are not lying to us, you are lying to yourself.

No, I meant the name of the Mosque you mentioned

Yes masjid al aqsa, a location in Jerusalem that the early Muslims faced in prayer

Actually, it was the Jews. But, Yes to the rest of your twisted post. So why did we even have to have that clarification when we both knew exactly what I was talking about??

And when did that idea of the Kaaba being built by Abraham start?

Seems your memory is short. Here is the tape i once played to you and your people in another thread:<SNIP>

Legitimate historical citation please. Since when did it go from "Quran only" to now including modern authors?? See the duplicitous little game you play???? Well, I do.

The progeny of Ismail settled in the area from Havilah (Yemen) unto Shur (near gulf of Aqabah at the north east end of Red sea) Gen21:21,25:9-18, which essentially is the Hijaz where the descendants of Ismail have always identified themselves in, whether in ancient history or today.

The Adnanites of whom the prophet Muhammad was a descendant, were counscious of Ibrahim having constructed the Kaaba.

Citation please???

They performed circumcision and rites that were similar to the Israelite rites of the altar sacrifice even before the coming of Muhammad.

Not only Citation is required for this tall claim, citation of frequency of people actually practicing this is required. Otherwise, it's a made up Musim lie.

The hadith, which are based upon oral tradition and oral tradition in any culture,

You've rejected the authenticity of the hadiths, and now when you need them, there are "certain parts" that are now true, and they are true as you need them to be true. You sir, are even an embarrassment to Muslims. You sir, are simply out of your mind, and I can actually find Muslims to agree with me.

Musim lie.

precedes the writing of that tradition, abounds with evidence such as the pre-Islamic poems of Umayyah ibn Abi as-Salt speaking of the trial of the sacrifice which Ibrahim and Ismail went through.

One interesting historical narration is that, per Ibn Kathir,

Yes, Kathir is good when needed, and denied when not conveniently needed, and people such as yourself don't even keep track of that. You are honestly that much out of your mind to where you invent fantasies for yourself.

the horns of the ram sacrificed in substitution of Ismail were religiously preserved in the Kaaba and handed down from generation to generation, upto the times of Abdullah bin Zubair. When Hajjaj besieged the Kaaba in 692, and destroyed part of it, the horns too were destroyed. Ibn Abbas and Sheibi both had seen the horns. Even prior to Islam, Abdul Muttalib, during the siege of Mecca by Abraha, recited a prayer which clearly acknowledges that they recognized the House as belonging to Allah alone: "O Lord! A man protects his family, so protect Your people. Let not their cross and their strength overpower You. If You want to leave our Qiblah at their mercy, then do as You please."

Who wrote that??? Why didn't you quote it??? You obviously got the text somewhere, so obviously the author's name was right next to it, but you didn't quote it.

Why are these writings to be taken as reliable, but then again any historical writings you don't like are to be taken as unreliable??

The history records this legacy of Ibrahim and Ismail, especially with the hanifs,

So now, if a historical accounting of something meets your needs, it's true. But if it doesn't meet your needs, then this is due to the mischief of certain people. That's the excuse. ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What sort of a psycho are you???????????

those who were the seekers of the pure way of Ibrahim 3:67, who renounced Idolatry and the consumption of meat slaughtered in the name of idols as well as other pagan rituals. They were non-Jewish, non-Christian Arabian monotheists although some of them, such as Waraqa bin Nawfal, would convert to one of the 2 faiths as a result of their search. These small groups of Meccan men and women detested the use of the Kaaba by the polytheists and kept their practice of religion monotheistic. They affirmed that the Abrahamic legacy had been distorted beyond recognition, whether by the Jews, Christians or Ishmaelites, and these personalities were seeking a return to the pristine religion. The traditions mention their names and how their ways of life would lead them to harassement by the Idol worshipers.
They include names like Uthman ibn Huwayrith, Ubaydullah bin Jahsh, Zayd ibn Amr ibn Nawfal Al-Nabighah al Ja'adi etc, as well as Muhammad the orphan who essentially raised himself, who never worshiped the idols and would retreat away from the pagan environement to contemplate as some of his forefathers such as his great grand father the hanif Hashim ibn Abd al-Manaf would do, until his prophetic call.

In the pre-Islamic poems of Umayyah ibn Abi as-Salt, the haniffiya, the way of Ibrahim, is mentioned by name and Ibn Ishaq quotes it in connection with Abraha's attack on the Kaaba. Sirmah ibn Anas of the Banu Adyy ibn Al Najjar was another hanif, per the work of Isabah, that renounced idolatry and became a hanif and that he worshipped only the God of Abraham. There are countless sources that connect Abraham with the Arabs and those that desired to return to his ways were considered hanifs. This whole tradition revolved especially around the legacy of the Kaaba.

The Arab tradition on this point is so strong and of such old standing that the Quran every now and then refers to it as a matter of undoubted history, and the Arabs never contended with it.

Prayed in the direction of Jerusalem, until the Jews still did not accept Islam even after Muhammad's overtures, and then, the prayer direction changes from Jerusalem to Mecca

The Muslims faced Jerusalem in Mecca, long before there was any Jewish involvement in their life[/quote]

And why was that??

and suddenly here comes a "test" from Allah to see who is faithful and who is not.

Seems you're mixing your wishful thinking with the truth once again. The test regarding the qibla had nothing to do with the people of the book and started long before the Muslims interracted with the Jews. The Quran reports how hard the test was for the Muslims and the prophet Muhammad in particular.

Seems you missed the point again. what was Allah finding out from this test?

Thanks for making me look like a prophet

Well you do have the holy spirit in you like each christian alleges, you must therefore be a prophet according to your scriptures.

Well, i suppose, more so than you are. At least I don't have to lie.

OK, so God does this, and this is "A" "sign" (singular)

Your point being

Does it say the word "signs" twice in that verse?

Once, what is your point

You said it is talking not about signs being shown to him, it is talking about one sign from among all signs, and you know you were trying to say that you liar. But the verse simply does not bear that out. Is there another twist or diversion you would like to attempt??

What is the word for what it is showing "from our signs"?? Is it saying that he will be shown a "thing" from our signs? Is it saying that it is showing him a "sign" from our signs?

Explain yourself properly.

I asked you a question, and it's right above and in writing. So why are you asking me to explain myself properly you charlatan?? There's nothing to explain about my question and the only thing that needs explanation is your behavior. You heard me the first time. I'm not particularly difficult to figure out. I'm pretty much straight forward, which is a term that I know you are absolutely frightened by.

As for the verse itself, it is simple, it says the purpose of the journey was to show him from the signs of Allah.

You said the journey was "A" sign, as in singular. Now the liar adjusts his story. Now it IS INDEED "signs".

It could be one or several.

You said "sign", you liar.

From all my cars i can show you one or two. Both interpretations fit the information given in the verse, without any need to bring the miraj (ascension) story.

Wrong, you filthy, rotten liar. One car means one sign or "sign" just like your rotten arss lied about not too long ago, and "signs" means multiple cars or signs. What sort of uneducated piece of crap do you think you ar3e trying to play this street hustle on???? Are you honestly this bad and dishonest???????

Excuse me, but is the word "sign" in that verse singular or plural?

Another idiotic comment. The word must be in the plural, because God has many signs to show and the journey was one among those signs.

Then why did you use the word "sign" in singular fashion?

The journey itself was a sign from God's signs. Do you understand now.

I would, except for the verse says "signs", not "sign". So we're right back to what I stated in the first place. Believe me, these games will not work.

I most certainly do. In fact, I had to be my Dad's nurse for the last 6 months of his life, which even included helping him with going to the bathroom, of which I do not wish to go into detail. So what is the matter with your head that you would say something so wrong like that?

Your public behavior and paranoia?

Why should it be considered to be paranoia when I actually continually prove my point and you continually run out of answers?? So who[s tellijng the truth and who is not?? Sorry, but that little ploy didn't work. And you're not the first person to try it. Send a message back to the cockroach farm that it doesn't work in this kitchen.

Excuse me, but who are "my people"?

Those who belong to your umma

Wow, I wouldn't want someone like that next to me when things counted. Why should the US want people who report to Mecca first and foremost??

No you are not, you are admitting defeat.

How exactly

By introducing a term that has no specific bearing as to get the conversation to go somewhere else. But it failed. Keep trying them, and i will answer every single one of them. Every single one.

OK, so why didn't you simply say that in the first place?

You and those with you have been educated a few pages back already,

Quote how you specifically spelled it out. But then again, maybe you shouldn't bother because it's already been shown to be faulty

that the information as to the location of the sacred mosque does not depend on the hadith

What does it depend on?? If you think it doesn't depend on the hadiths, then that means you KNOW what it DOES depend on

So was the sunna written before 17:1?

Sunna is the oral explanation of the Quranic commandements 16:44, long before the compilation of any hadith

I asked you very clearly and very plainly whether the sunna that you raised in interest to this particular topic, was written before 17:1 was recited or not. Would you care to be honest for just once in your life and give us a straight yes or no answer:?"??

How did they know what 17:1 was talking about when Muhammad uttered it?

Obviously the journey had already occured. What is your point

What did they know about the journey to where the Quran didn't think it needed to go into details, like it didn't need to go into details about the Battle of Badr? We are right back into the same point you charlatan. It said "signs", not sign.

Well sure, because Muhammad told them this was the sacred Mosque after he smashed all of the no compulsion in religion idols.

The Kaaba was referred as the sacred mosque long before the conquest of Mecca. You are all over the place once again.[/quote]

When was the first time that the Kaaba was referred to as the sacred mosque???

[Muhammad bin Lyin]

Eagle, you are an absolute disgrace.

[Eagle]

What, exactly, do you mean by the earliest days of Islam?

The days when the prophecies were made against all possible odds. What exactly wasnt clear in that, that you didnt understand.

And you and I both know that the Quran references mean very little without the additional, detailed info.

Which "additional, detailed info". Things such as the flying donkey and the half ice, half fire creature?
Again:

Other sources of corruption came from...story-tellers and reciters of fables attaching their rich imagination to the narrations...

I can't understand why you think that lying is OK.

Point which lie you're speaking of, because your paranoia is starting to edge on insanity.

Actually, it was the Jews. But, Yes to the rest of your twisted post. So why did we even have to have that clarification when we both knew exactly what I was talking about??

The point is the Muslims faced Jerusalem from the beginning in their prayers, meaning they always knew the location of masjid al aqsa, not suddenly after the prophet Muhammad's miraculous journey.

Since when did it go from "Quran only" to now including modern authors?

Who said anything about "Quran only". Once again, history, tradition, common knowledge of pre islamic times and of early islam, is not limited to hadith and precedes the writing of those hadith.

Citation please?

Citation of who? That knowledge goes back to immemorial times, to the extent that the pagans of pre islamic times never disputed such facts. Not all culture documment their history, their traditions and knowledge and the Arabs are the prime example of that.

You've rejected the authenticity of the hadiths, and now when you need them, there are "certain parts" that are now true, and they are true as you need them to be true.

Read again what you quoted, and what you were told earlier:

Tradition and known history is not always equal with hadith, just like sunna is not equal with hadith. Hadiths can contain correct history and true sunna but not always.

Yes, Kathir is good when needed, and denied when not conveniently needed

Its not about conveniency, its about reviewing his work and pointing his errors and those of other scholars of the past, as well as confirming his true statements. Its quite idiotic from you to consider critical analysis a conveniency when it comes to religion while it is the essence of religion as dictated by the Quran itself, let alone many other fields such as science and physics for example. As regards to hadiths, some compilers may have considered the report of a person trustworthy while modern research can prove the narrator to be entirely unreliable.

Who wrote that??? Why didn't you quote it???

Temper your paranoia and complex. Read the names and the one who reported those narrations.

So now, if a historical accounting of something meets your needs, it's true. But if it doesn't meet your needs, then this is due to the mischief of certain people.

Not when it meets my needs, when it is in accordance with the Quran and common traditional knowledge to the Arabs.

And why was that?

A test to the Muslims, as well as explaining the fact that no direction, whther the Kaaba or Jerusalem, has any sanctity except if selected by Allah. The Quran is quite clear on that throughout sura Baqara.

what was Allah finding out from this test?

Allah does not find out anything from a test. He teaches, seperates, and makes known through tests. The tests also serve as self convicting evidence on Judgement Day.

Well, i suppose

No, you truly are a prophet for having the holy spirit in you. You can prophesy. Your knowledge of your bible seems shallow just like your reasoning skills and general knowledge appear to be approximative.

I asked you a question, and it's right above and in writing. So why are you asking me to explain myself properly

Your question is not only badly worded, but it was already answered when you were explained that the prophet being shown "from our signs" can mean he was shown one sign from among many signs or several signs from among many signs.

You said the journey was "A" sign, as in singular. Now the liar adjusts his story. Now it IS INDEED "signs".

Little paranoid. You were told the verse is perfectly accurate with both ionterpretations, i took your spin to show you how it is still correct.

You said "sign", you liar.

And im using your interpretation to show how both understanding are correct, little paranoid.

One car means one sign or "sign", and "signs" means multiple cars or signs.

You're sinking in your paranoia again. If i say i will show you "from" my cars it either means i will show you 1 or several cars from all the cars i have. The simple example should have helped you understand.

Then why did you use the word "sign" in singular fashion?

The journey itself is a sign, among many signs from God. Do you understand now.

Believe me, these games will not work.

Which games, little paranoid.

Why should it be considered to be paranoia when I actually continually prove my point and you continually run out of answers?

Maybe you should point such instance for once

Send a message back to the cockroach farm that it doesn't work in this kitchen.

lol

By introducing a term that has no specific bearing as to get the conversation to go somewhere else.

The term was actually quite appropriate since it defines my purpose by telling you how to ask a question relevant to the discussion (the meaning of masjid) in a way that abases you.

Quote how you specifically spelled it out.

Go there where you and your people were explained that no additional scripture is needed to know the location of the sacred mosque, and the farthest mosque viewtopic.php?f=21&t=7592&start=180#p122353" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What does it depend on?? If you think it doesn't depend on the hadiths, then that means you KNOW what it DOES depend on

Another idiotic comment. You mean the Muslims did not know where the sacred mosque was until the hadith books were compiled 200 years after the prophet's death.

I asked you very clearly and very plainly whether the sunna that you raised in interest to this particular topic, was written before 17:1 was recited or not.

And you were "clearly and very plainly" explained that the prophet was in charge of explaining the commands given in the Quran, before the writing of any hadith. This means when the Muslims were ordered to pray in the early days, they were told by the prophet to face a certain direction, and that direction was Jerusalem as you and your people were educated a few posts back. This means they always knew where masjid al aqsa was located because it was the furthest in relation to the Kaaba, and did not just face an unknown direction before the prophet's miraculous journey.

and give us a straight yes or no answer:?"??

You're typing nervously on your keyboard. Temper your paranoia.

What did they know about the journey

That the prophet was miraculously transported from point A (Kaaba) to point B (Jerusalem), and this in itself is a sign from the signs of Allah.

When was the first time that the Kaaba was referred to as the sacred mosque?

Before Mecca was conquered (which cancels another idiotic comment from you), as seen in the Quran, before the prophet Muhammad was even born the Arabs bowed to it and called it the sacred mosque because, obviously it was sacred and it was a masjid.

you are an absolute disgrace.

Your paranoia is entertaining

[AhmedBahgat]

Lol, Brother Eagle just slam dunked ugly inmate bin fagin; this must be added to my slam dunk show:

Slam Dunk #97

[Muhammad bin Lyin]

Eagle, can you tell me the translator that says "from our signs"?? I can't find it. Please give me the entire translation you are using.

[Muhammad bin Lyin]

Lol, Brother Eagle just slam dunked ugly inmate bin fagin; this must be added to my slam dunk show:

Slam Dunk #97

What is the proper translation for 17:1? Shakir is supposed to be the best. Here's what he says.

Glory be to Him Who made His servant to go on a night from the Sacred Mosque to the remote mosque of which We have blessed the precincts, so that We may show to him some of Our signs; surely He is the Hearing, the Seeing.