[This thread is meant for a one-on-one debate between me and Balls_of_Titanium1. Please do not post here if you are not Balls_of_Titanium1]
Hi Balls_of_Titanium1,
(For convenience, I will address you as BOT1 from hereon. I hope this will not be offending you)
You are supposed to defend two prime contentions in this debate as you did it in another thread from where we are directed to this location. Subsequently, I will be refuting those contentions using your (Muslim) authentic sources. First of all, I will deal with your first contention:
My argument was:
KhaliL Fariel wrote:I repeat your book and history proves you wrong. Jews were maltreated by Muhammad and his followers.
You responded:
Balls_of_Titanium1 wrote:When you opine, you are just opining. When you provide back up sources, the mode of my reply would be different.
Your response has the undertone of a promise too that when I am proving my points with back up sources you will be replying to them in a different mode than mere rhetoric. So I will substantiate my claim in order for you to add your refutations to it.
First of all, let us see what Quran says about Jews in general. This is excerpt from one of my articles which is highly relevant here:
Jews are an accursed lot according to Quran. Allah cursed them not once but many times. Allah cursed Iblis (Satan) only on a single occasion, but never hesitated to renew his curse in the case of Jews. It doesn't confine the curse to a past generation of Jews. The curse is with them until the resurrection day. See Quran:
The Jews say: "Allah's hand is tied up." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter. Nay, both His hands are widely outstretched: He give and spends (of His bounty) as He pleases. But the revelation that cometh to thee from Allah increases in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. Amongst them we have placed enmity and hatred till the Day of Judgment. Every time they kindle the fire of war, Allah doth extinguish it; but they (ever) strive to do mischief on earth. And Allah loves not those who do mischief. [Quran Chapter 5: 64]
See it in the above verses, (focus on the bolded part) Allah says, among them (Jews) he has placed enmity and hatred till the Day of Judgment. So, the hatred and enmity is protracted to the end of days. I bring this up now to help you to not bring the context argument in your defense. Quran (Allah) says Jews are to bear the burden of Allah's wrath until the Day of Judgment. Remember Satan too is cursed by Allah in the same way Jews are cursed. The most merciful god granted respite to Satan until the Day of Judgment. So the logic is, if Jews are flourishing all the times that would be because Allah given them respite just like he gave it to Satan, but believers can not be with them for that. If any believer befriends them, he will be lost. Just like those who follow in the footsteps of Satan will be lost.
For a true believer, who believes in Allah and Muhammad, there can not be any difference between Satan and Jews, because both are cursed by Allah. This is the true Islamic stance.
Is there anything relevant to the mentioning of this Day of Judgment in Quran? Of course there is because after suffering all the hatred and enmity, what will happen to Jews when they happened to be at the end of times? See the hadith:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him." [Sahih Bukhari: Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177:]
This is the portrayal of the Hour. And we see a definite indication for massacre of Jews in the above hadith. That means a Muslim who has to believe in The Hour has to believe in this mass murder too.
The belief in Allah and the Last Day is one of the pillars of Faith in Islam. Do not forget this fact, so by default a Muslim has to believe in the total annihilation of Jews. If a human being is conditioned in this way, do you think he is going to befriend and love Jews? Not at all; in fact he will be longing for The Hour to come when stones and trees betrays Jews to Muslims.
It is dictated to Muslims by their holy scripture and other authentic sources to hate and hate and hate Jews until the end of times then to massacre them with the help of talking stones and trees.
This is what my contention means. Hatred of Jews is a holy ordinance for Muslims. As long as Quran and Muslims authentic sources remain, Muslim can not stop hating Jews.
Next, I will deal with the topic of the treatment of unbelievers in general. I will bring Quran again:
Lo! those who disbelieve, and die while they are disbelievers; on them is the curse of Allah and of angels and of men combined.[Quran: 2:161]
If you carefully focus on the verses above, it says of disbelievers who live and die as disbelievers. On them is the curse of Allah-the god of Muslims. Moreover angels too curse them, again all believing people curse them. This is Quran..! Should I bring more from your holy text to prove my case unbelievers are subjected to the hatred of Muslims since they are an accursed lot? Can you relentlessy curse a group of people and love them at the same time?
How can you prove your case Allah loves unbelievers when in fact he curses them along with his angels and incites believers too to take part in this cursing business?
Now, let me see what you said in the other thread:
Balls_of_Titanium1 wrote:In a hadith, Muhamamd said that Allah loves his creation 70 times more than a mother loves his child.
That is about all creation and not just Muslims.
It is the sin that we must abhor.
Similarly, Allah says in the Qur'an that he does not forbids us from being kind and just to those kafirs who don't fight us on the basis of our religion.
Well, I need you to bring the hadith here so that I can scrutinize it. You just mentioned a Hadith, but it needs to be brought. And in advance, I am going to present a verse from Quran and a Hadith to endorse it that would negate your assertion. (Keep in mind, you should bring the hadith you are talking about so that I can show how shallow a claim you made. I know of the hadith you are talking about and it does not mean what you asserted. But I will wait until you bring it up) Now, deal with this below:
It is not for the Prophet, and those who believe, to pray for the forgiveness of unbelievers (or polytheists) even though they may be near of kin (to them) after it hath become clear that they are people of hell fire.[Quran: 9:113]
And to know of this verse’s context see the hadith:
Narrated Al-Musaiyab: When Abu Talib was on his death bed, Allah's Apostle came to him and found with him, Abu Jahl and Abdullah bin Abi Umaiya bin Al-Mughira. Allah's Apostle said, "O uncle! Say: None has the right to be worshipped except Allah, a sentence with which I will defend you before Allah." On that Abu Jahl and 'Abdullah bin Abi Umaiya said to Abu Talib, "Will you now leave the religion of 'Abdul Muttalib?" Allah's Apostle kept on inviting him to say that sentence while the other two kept on repeating their sentence before him till Abu Talib said as the last thing he said to them, "I am on the religion of 'Abdul Muttalib," and refused to say: None has the right to be worshipped except Allah. On that Allah's Apostle said, "By Allah, I will keep on asking Allah's forgiveness for you unless I am forbidden (by Allah) to do so." So Allah revealed:-- 'It is not fitting for the Prophet and those who believe that they should invoke (Allah) for forgiveness for pagans.' (Q: 9.113) [Sahih Bukhari: Book:60, Hadith: 295]
In light of the Quranic verse and the supportive hadith, let me ask you Muslim, how can you even remotely think of loving an unbeliever when in fact it is forbidden for you to pray for them? Do you have a different definition for love?
I would just wind up because it is not appropriate to lengthen a presentation but not before I ask you a question:
Can you bring me any verse from Quran or your Sahih sources to assert any claim that your god “LOVES” unbelievers? If you can, bring it on and argue you are only allowed to hate sin and not the sinners.
Until you come up with your rebuttal…
With regards
KhaliL FarieL
title edited by M