What are we?

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sum
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What are we?

Post by sum »

I have long wondered what we are. This started many decades ago and increased when I did a short spell in neurosurgery. Patients who had come in for elective surgery would be initially examined and it noted how they were intellectually, emotionally and how the family regarded them ie their personality. After surgery and depending on which part of the brain was involved the patient was often a "different" person to the pre-operative person and this could be confirmed by the family and sometimes by the patient. This could also be seen after accidents involving the brain. I therefore concluded that there was a direct link between the physical brain and the mind/personality.

Hormones, chemicals naturally produced, affect the mind. A very common hormone, the thyroid hormone, when in deficient amounts leads to sluggish and slow brain activity. Prescribe thyroid tablets and the brain livens up again and normality is resumed. Illegal drugs affect the personality which everyone has read about. Testosterone in excessive amounts creates an aggressive personality which is why some sporting cheats use this in order to increase their competitiveness.

In this very brief start to the matter of what we are it is even clear at this stage that the mind/personality are dependent upon brain structure and chemicals. I think that this is self evident to all but this is by no means the full picture.

The next subject does not require brain structure or chemicals as above. However, the muslims have perfected the art of mind manipulation which starts at birth and continues throughout the life of the person. It is hugely based on the interaction between the "ancient" and "modern" parts of the brain - the amygdala and pre-frontal cortex.

I would strongly suggest that people read about the functions and relationship of the amygdala and pre-frontal cortex.

This will do for starters but the amygdala and pre-frontal cortex have a most important role to play. I would very very strongly recommend reading about the effects of emotional, physical and sexual abuse throughout childhood on the personality. Read about the causes of lack of empathy. If and when you do investigate what I suggest then relate it to Muhammad`s upbringing. Read about the effects of different carers throughout the child`s start in life and see the effects it could have and again relate this to Muhammad`s personality which lacked all empathy enabling him to dictate atrocities to those who offended him. It is too close to his upbringing to be a coincidence.

As I said, this will do for starters.

sum

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manfred
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Re: What are we?

Post by manfred »

This is I think a very complex topic.

What brain injuries can teach us is which parts of the brain normally control/process what. They can tell quite a bit about the "mechanics" of our personality.

But a human brain is not entirely "hard wired", and it is also not quite like a computer. Some damage, in time, can be compensated for.


A computer will carry out whatever it is programmed to do. A human has some degree of choice. In a way, in part, he "programmes" himself. He can learn independently, and directly from sensory input. We do have computers that can also learn to some extent, but none yet that can freely choose what to learn. They must have a predefined parameter.

So "who we are" also depends at least in part on our experiences. Have had a look at the various studies of twins who grew up in different environments?

It seems to me "who we are" is a complex, and not yet fully understood mix of genetic endowment and learning.

These two factors both interact with each other and limit each other.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

farishta
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Re: What are we?

Post by farishta »

I must admit I feel like a mosquito in a nudist colony: I don't know where to begin. :clueless:

Let me start by trying to understand your post. You state some well-known facts about the neurobiology and neurochemistry. One can confidently say that the thing we call mind is a function dependent on the brain. It is well known that a great portion of the brain is busy taking care of the body. The organs, motor and sensory functions etc. Medical science is fairly advance here.

The "mental functions" "cerebral activities" emotions and memories are all the functions of the limbic system and prefrontal cortex. The answer to the question "What are we?" ostensibly lies here. Evolution has gifted these to primates and they appear exquisitely refined in Homo Sapiens.

Talking of the brain this scientist says,
""Here is this three-pound mass of jelly you can hold in the palm of your hand, and it can contemplate the vastness of interstellar space. It can contemplate the meaning of infinity and it can contemplate itself contemplating on the meaning of infinity. And this peculiar recursive quality that we call self-awareness, is the holy grail of neuroscience, of neurology, and hopefully, someday, we'll understand how that happens.""

https://www.ted.com/talks/vilayanur_ram ... anguage=en

Neuroscience, with all its impressive achievements, has not the slightest clue to answer the question " What am I " and I believe, even if the working of every cell in the body and every chemical and every synapse is known we will not be closer to the answer. Of course, we will have great power to manipulate the system and be a great help to cure many diseases and malfunctions.

Much before the onslaught of neuroscience, philosophers, mostly Greek, have been contemplating the meaning of life. "Know thyself" was the message of Socrates. He also believed that " Unexamined life is not worth living." When it was time to die for his preaching, he did not shy away.

From Socrates to Sartre, philosophers have been thinking in this branch of metaphysics known as ontology. They all have nothing to show for all their labour. Neither the arrogance of Dawkins nor the chicanery of the snake oil salesman Deepak Chopra has achieved any success in convincing me that they have the answer.
There was the Door to which I found no Key;
There was the Veil through which I might not see:
Some little talk awhile of Me and Thee
There was--and then no more of Thee and Me.

Myself when young did eagerly frequent doctor and saint and heard great arguments about it and about: but evermore I came out by the same door as in I went.
Omar Khayyam
Last edited by farishta on Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

sum
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Re: What are we?

Post by sum »

I have been out fishing today but will be back to the thread tomorrow.

sum

sum
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Re: What are we?

Post by sum »

Hello manfred

Your quote -
A computer will carry out whatever it is programmed to do. A human has some degree of choice. In a way, in part, he "programmes" himself. He can learn independently, and directly from sensory input.

The highlighted part is a subject in its own true right. Perhaps it is for another thread.

Apart from physical trauma and "chemicals" the other influence is environmental.

To achieve a normal and emotionally healthy person the process must start at birth if not before. There should be an emotionally stable environment and long term bonding with a caregiver not a rota of caregivers as in for example, orphanages etc. The bonding should create a safe and loving environment and include involving matters that stimulate the child in order to establish the proper neurological pathways in the brain and avoiding emotional problems later. Upbringing has a major effect on the emotional outcome of individuals through allowing the best in brain development in a caring, secure and safe environment whereas poor upbringing will have adverse effects altering the pathways in the brain.

How does a stressful and an emotionally challenging environment affect the child? It affects the amygdala and its connectons with the pre-frontal cortex.

http://www.raisingofamerica.org/amygdal ... on-crucial" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

NARRATOR: Recently new neuro-imaging technology enabled the Wisconsin team to see whether or not parental stress might impact the very architecture of their adolescent children’s brains. The team especially wanted to look at one critical brain circuit—the connection between the amygdala and prefrontal cortex. The amygdala recognizes threat and sounds the alarm. In turn, the prefrontal cortex signals the amygdala whether the alarm is justified.

I chose this quote among many others because it gives a very simple general description of the function of these two centres. It has been shown that a chronic stressful environment, including child abuse, can lead to an overdevelopment of the amygdala and much reduced connections to the pre-frontal cortex. This in turn can lead to impulsive and inappropriate actions to what are perceived to be threatening situations without the controlling influence of the pre-frontal cortex. In reality, these perceived threatening situations may well be trivial matters but the knee jerk response of the unmoderated amygdala because of diminshed pre-frontal cortex neuronal connections can be extreme and a life-long problem.

This very brief resume of chronic stress affecting the anatomy and function of the brain is just one aspect of environmental influences on the mental and emotional development of children and which can last a lifetime. There are other environmental influences causing lack of empathy and causing narcissism.

sum
Last edited by sum on Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Fernando
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Re: What are we?

Post by Fernando »

I find this very deep, not having much background knowledge. But as you mention very early development, I wonder whether "evo(lution)-devo(elopment)" has anything to do with your question. I gather that recent finding in genetics suggest that something akin to Lamarckist acquired characteristics might be possible: in effect, the behavour of the father is inherited by the child. Heresy or not?
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah

sum
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Re: What are we?

Post by sum »

Hello Fernando

Your quote -
I gather that recent finding in genetics suggest that something akin to Lamarckist acquired characteristics might be possible: in effect, the behavour of the father is inherited by the child. Heresy or not?

I feel unable to give a reasonable reply to your quote as I have concentrated on matters not genetic as genetics will not be very helpful with regards to Muhammad`s upbringing.

EMPATHY

An undesirable upbringing might can have other consequences. Lack of empathy is certainly one possibility and this should be born in mind in relationship to Muhammad`s early childhood. Please read the following -

http://sfhelp.org/relate/empathy.htm

Simple neglect can be surprisingly damaging. In 2007, researchers published the first randomized, controlled study of the effect of being raised in an orphanage; that study, and subsequent research on the same sample of Romanian orphans, found that compared with babies placed with a foster family, those who were sent to institutions had lower IQs, slower physical growth, problems with human attachment and differences in functioning in brain areas related to emotional development.

Institutionalized infants do not experience being the center of a loving family's attention; instead, they are cared for a rotating staff of shift workers, which is inherently neglectful. Such children miss out on intensive, one-on-one affection and attachment with a parental figure, which babies need at that vulnerable age. Without that experience, they learn early on that the world is a cold, insecure and untrustworthy place. Their emotional needs having gone unmet, they frequently have trouble understanding or appreciating the feelings of others.


https://www.independent.co.uk/life-styl ... 79239.html

The other side of the empathy coin is environment. John Bowlby, the British psychiatrist and psychoanalyst who developed "attachment theory", was the first to point out the lifelong impact of early neglect and abuse. "We think children are very robust, they'll somehow adapt," says Baron-Cohen, "but Bowlby showed that children who had what he called insecure attachment – a lack of opportunity to form a strong bond with a caregiver – are more at risk of delinquency and they're more at risk from a range of personality disorders, which I translate into a lack of empathy because many of the personality disorders, like the psychopath, or people with borderline personality disorder are just operating on a totally self- centred mode. Early attachment is one big risk factor for low empathy."

There are very many articles on environment and a child`s upbringing but I have only posted parts of two which give initial insight into the matter but there are many more.

Again, please relate the above with Muhammad`s early childhood.

sum
Last edited by sum on Sun Nov 11, 2018 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

sum
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Re: What are we?

Post by sum »

NARCISSISM

When upbringing throughout childhood is poor then it is a risk factor for creating a narcissistic personality. Please read the following extracts -

https://www.bridgestorecovery.com/narci ... -disorder/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Diagnosis and Treatment for Narcissistic Personality Disorder
________________________________________
Narcissistic personality disorder is diagnosed based on the presence of at least five of nine distinctive symptoms associated with the disorder, which are:
1. A grandiose sense of self-importance
2. Preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
3. Feelings of being special and unique, belonging only with others who have equally high status
4. Need for constant and excessive admiration
5. A sense of entitlement, expecting special treatment and recognition regardless of actual accomplishments
6. Exploitative actions, treating others as a means to an end
7. Lack of empathy
8. Excessive envy (and assumptions that others are equally envious)
9. Arrogant, haughty behaviors and attitudes


https://thenarcissisticlife.com/what-ar ... arcissism/
Signs -
Lack of empathy for others
 Constant need for admiration and attention
 Exaggerates their own importance
 Belief that they are special and only understood by others who are special
 Takes advantage of other people to reach their own goals
 Envious of others, or believes that others are envious of them
 Has arrogant attitudes and behaviors


The Causes of Narcissism

The causes of narcissism aren’t yet well-understood. It’s thought that many biological and genetic factors can contribute. Early life experiences and environment can also play a role in the condition’s development.

Some experts believe that parents are one of the main reasons why kids become narcissists. Narcissism is more likely to develop when parents need their kids to be special or talented to boost their own self-esteem.
Another key factor is when kids are excessively overindulged or pampered when young.
On the other hand, other experts also believe that narcissism is a result of trauma, abuse, or neglect inflicted by parents. Some studies also suggest that narcissism is at least partially due to genetics.

There are many reasons why someone may become a narcissist. The most common theme is that a child fails to transition into adulthood in some way. This means that they remain in the early stage of development, which is self-focused and primarily narcissistic.
Narcissism is something that sometimes appears in families. This could be due to a genetic cause. But it may also be due to a narcissistic parent failing to bond with their children. This, in turn, causes the kids to become narcissists too.


Risk Factors
Recently been hanging out with teenagers? You could be forgiven for assuming they’re all narcissists. The rise of social media and selfie culture has even caused some people to believe we’re living through a narcissism epidemic.
Some adolescents may seem to have a few narcissistic traits. But this is a normal developmental stage. It doesn’t mean they’ll develop a narcissistic personality disorder.
Here are some of the risk factors and causes of narcissism you should look out for:
 Parental derision for needs and fears during childhood
 Lack of praise and parental affection during childhood
 Emotional abuse or severe neglect during childhood
 Excessive overindulgence or praise by peers or family members
 Unreliable or unpredictable care from parents
 Seeing manipulative behavior from one or both parents
 Continually praised for exceptional abilities or looks by adults
 Excessive criticism for bad behaviors and excessive praise for good behaviors



https://www.curejoy.com/content/causes- ... -disorder/ below
Too Much Expectation
Kohut’s contemporary and researcher Otto F. Kernberg also endorsed this theory of parental neglect as the cause. He believed that in their childhood, narcissistic personalities were never valued for themselves; they were valued only when they met their parents’ expectations.
As a result, their self-images become wholly governed by expectations, making them incapable of being spontaneous. Because they validate their own existence by conforming to expectations, narcissists believe that others too should meet and conform to their expectations.4
In 2006, Leonard Groopman and Arnold Cooper listed all the possible causes of narcissistic personality disorder.5
• A hypersensitive temperament since birth
• Excessive admiration not balanced with realistic feedback
• Excessive praise for good deeds or excessive criticism for bad behaviors during childhood
• Overvaluation by parents or other family members
• Being praised for appearance or exceptional abilities
• Severe emotional abuse during childhood
• Unpredictable or unreliable care from parents
• Learning manipulative behaviors from parents or peers
• Being valued by parents as a means to regulate their own self-esteem



Causes
https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/nar ... disorder#2
The exact cause is not known, but there are several theories. Many think it’s a mix of things, from how the person handles stress to how he was raised. Parents who put their children on a pedestal and shower them with endless praise can plant a seed of narcissism, a recent study found. There’s a line between being nurturing and supportive and inflating an ego.
Then again, the opposite is true, too. Children who are ignored or abused tend to be self-centered almost as a survival instinct. They feel they need to look out for themselves because no one else will.


Please read the above and relate the risk factors to Muhammad`s childhood and upbringing and his adult personality.

We are what we are programmed to be.

sum

sum
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Re: What are we?

Post by sum »

All the evidence points to an emotionally well balanced upbringing with a loving main caregiver in a low stress environment producing a child that is likely to be "normal". I have presented evidence that shows that when there is a stressful and/or violent background with neglect, abuse and various caregivers involved it is very likely to lead to a "disturbed" child. The child could well prone to impulsive and inappropriate behaviour, lacking in empathy and showing narcissistic traits.

I have omitted genetics because at the end I wish to relate all this to Muhammad`s upbringing as hardly anything is known about Muhammad`s mother, Amina, or his father.

So far, the environmental aspect has been shown that it can affect the structure of the brain with adverse psychological results. The brain links its various centres electronically via neurones. The cells within the brain are also vulnerable to natural "chemicals" - hormones, mainly cortisol. This would suggest that we are only simply electro/chemical entities as our minds and personality are what the electro/chemical combination acting on the structure of the brain makes us. However, this is not the whole answer.

I will add more tomorrow.

sum

sum
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Re: What are we?

Post by sum »

Muhammad`s early childhood.

Muhammad`s father, Abdullah, had died during the pregnancy. Muhammad was born to Amina but she did not breastfeed Muhammad who was given to Theuiba to nurse and who was the maid of Muhammad`s uncle, Abu Lahab.

He was then given to a reluctant Halima who bcame Muhammad`s wet nurse. Twice a year Muhammad would visit his mother and then return to Halima. This could not have created any sort of positive bonding of Muhammad with his mother. He was growing up among strangers.

When he was five years old Halima returned him to Amina as she was concerned about his unusual behaviour. He was a solitary child who would withdraw into his own fantasy world and talk to his imaginary friends. At first Amina did not want to take him back until Halima told her that she thought that he had had a stroke.

The reunion with his mother did not last long as she died a year later. Muhammad was then cared for by his grandfather, Abdul Muttalib, who showered him with excessive love. This situation only lasted two years until his grandfather died and he was then placed in the care of Abu Lahab.

This abbreviated account of Muhammad`s early days strongly suggests that there was little or no bonding or maternal love with Amina or that there was much love or bonding with Halima who was reluctant to have him. Following his mother`s death he was, at last, loved and spoilt by his grandfather but this did not last long.

In short, he was pulled emotionally from pillar to post with no constant and loving caregiver in a low stress environment. Please refer back to the previous posts which reveal what this type of upbringing can do to the emotions and personality. Muhammad has been diagnosed as a narcissist from the Islamic information given by muslims` early records. It is also clear that he had little empathy. Muhammad claimed, in the ahadith, that he was given great eloquence. No doubt this was a great help in conning the gullible Arabs. He has been described as a master of mob psychology.

The above helps to answer the question "What are we?" but still does not give a complete answer.

sum

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Fernando
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Re: What are we?

Post by Fernando »

sum wrote:Please read the above and relate the risk factors to Muhammad`s childhood and upbringing and his adult personality.

We are what we are programmed to be.

sum
I hate to sound negative, but do we really know enough about the historical Mohammed to analyse the mythical Mohammed? Might his character perhaps have been formed by his embellishers?
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah

sum
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Re: What are we?

Post by sum »

Hello Fernando

As far as Muhammad`s childhood is concerned I am pretty confident that what I presented is acceptable. I obtained the info from Ali Sina`s book "Understanding Muhammad" but did not include the references for the sake of brevity. It is difficult to keep matters brief and retain the kernel of the matter while avoiding losing the attention of the readers should there be extensive text to read.

I can understand doubts regarding the adult Muhammad - did he even exist? - and whether the "embellishers" painted a picture that they knew was not quite accurate but served their politics. What Muhammad`s adult life and personality reveal, according to Islamic sources, would fit in nicely with his upbrnging. His dildhood and the resulting adulthood would compliment each other very well indeed and be in agreement with the child`s likely stressful upbringing as outlined in posts above. Everything seems to blend together.

sum

sum
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Re: What are we?

Post by sum »

During Muhammad`s childhood he was brought up as a pagan and followed pagan rituals. I would not claim that he was thoroughly indoctrinated but the rituals would have left an impression. Later, when he claimed that there was only one god he appeared to find it easy to discard paganism which suggests that he was not frightened of his apostasy, as to the best of my knowledge there were no significant threats to those who left the pagan faith.

After Khajida died he was unrestrained and off the leash and started to preach his new religion. In his attempt to win new converts. who were mainly pagans, he had no difficulty in incorporating a lot of the pagan rituals to seduce people into accepting his new religion. He promised two extreme consequences after death and Judgement Day - burning in the lake of fire in hell for ever if they did not follow to the letter his new religion, or, a life a unlimited carnal pleasure in the most luxurious dwellings.

One has to ask why Muhammad was doing all this. Why? Was it purely for the benefit of his followers or was it for Muhammad`s own personal benefit in the long term? If he was a good and peaceful person why did he continue to insult the pagans rather than have considered and rational discussions? He riled the pagans and even threatened them with slaughter. The pagans were pushed to the limit of their endurance and threatened to "fill him in". He left Mecca and went to Medina with his followers.

I accept that I am weaving in and out out of childhood upbringing and the life of Muhammad, and muslims after Muhammad, but I am using the effects of Islam from birth onwards as a real life example of what indoctrination throughout childhood can do to the mind. This might be a pointer to what we are.

sum

sum
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Re: What are we?

Post by sum »

Another aspect of "What we are" is the programming of the brain just like a computer. The physical brain is the hardware and the programming is the software. The following gives some insight into Islamic programming of the child`s mind.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/the-making-of-a-muslim/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Making of a Muslim
by Mumin Salih : May 14, 2011

Once I was asked: how do Muslim intellectuals read the Quran without noticing its obvious errors? How do they read about Mohammed’s evident murders and stand with the murderer? How do they read about his wars and stand with him, the aggressor? Since I discovered the truth about Islam, I frequently ask myself those same questions, why did I do that? When I look at Islam from where I stand today, all its lies, absurdities and cruelties appear to me with crystal clear precision, so why it took me so long to see the so obvious?
From my own personal experience, I think it has to do with what I believe to be the most extensive brainwashing process a human can ever be subjected to. The Islamization of the Muslim’s mind is a process that starts immediately after birth and continues throughout his/her life. After birth, an adult holds the child and recites the azan, the call for prayers, directly in the ears of the newborn. The moral of the practice is to prime the child‘s hearing with the blessed names of Allah and Mohammed. Indeed, that call for prayers soon becomes the most frequently heard sound by that child or any other Muslim child. The azan is repeated five times a day by every mosque in the area. If there are ten mosques in the area, which is common nowadays, the azan would be heard, through the loud speakers, fifty times a day. In addition, the newborn’s ears will get used to hearing the endless recitations of the Quran that go on almost continuously.
As the child grows up he/she will hear more and read more of the Quran. The newborn will open his/her eyes to the scenes of people performing the prayers, and will grow up to the familiar sight of walls decorated with posters of Arabic calligraphy of some Quranic verses. Those Quranic posters, Islam’s only visual art, soon become mandatory sights in his house or any house he/she may visit. Soon, the mind of the Muslim child gets the message that there is something very special about the Quran, which he/she is destined to read hundreds of times without ever understanding it.
At home and at school, Muslims children get thorough Islamic training, which is in a way similar to the training of circus animals; both respond impressively to commands without understanding why. Muslim children are trained to recite, by heart, the short chapters of the Quran and to give pre formulated answers to specific questions like who your god is and who your prophet is. In addition to this, children are introduced to basic Islamic logic in the form of hypothetical arguments designed to convince a child about Islam. Interestingly, most Muslims will still use those same arguments to defend their religion even when they are adults.
The following are some of the ‘logical arguments’ that are used to make the young child believe that Allah exists and that Islam is the only accepted religion.
• Consider the table, the chair or the car, do they create themselves? Obviously not, some people make them. The same is true for a man; is it possible for a man to create himself? Obviously not. The creator of man is Allah, is that difficult to understand? Obviously not, but the atheists are stupid enough not to understand this! To a child, this sounds convincing enough.
• Consider that your father bought a new radio or television; doesn’t he need a book to explain all about the equipment? Obviously he does, this is why all new equipments have manuals that explain their functions. It is the manufactures who know everything about their products. The same is true for man; it is only Allah who knows all about man, therefore we must read and abide by His book, the Quran, which is like the manual that explains how we should manage our lives. Is that difficult to understand? Obviously not, but there are people, the infidels, who are stupid enough to put their own earthy laws in preference to Allah’s laws in the Quran.
• The pre Islamic Arabs worshiped figures made from stones. Are stones worth worshipping? Would you believe that stones created man? Obviously not. This is just one example that demonstrates the ignorance and stupidity of the Arabs before Islam. In addition, the pre Islamic Arabs practiced wa’ad of girls (burial of female newborns alive) and adultery on a wide scale. The Arabs were destined to remain in darkness if it wasn’t for Mohammed who transformed them to become the best nation in the world.
• Other nations outside Arabia worshiped the sun, the fire, the cow etcetera. Do those religions make sense to you? Obviously not, any sane person would realize the stupidity of such beliefs. It doesn’t take a genius to discover that Islam is the right religion and the others are just man made cults.
• Christianity and Judaism: they were true religions, but were altered. Their scriptures were manipulated by men. Would any of you believe that Allah can have a son? Obviously not, but look at how many millions out there who believe so. Consider the history of Jews and the troubles they caused to the world, consider why they are so much hated by all nations, and consider why Allah has sent so many prophets to them because they keep changing their scriptures. Would you trust or believe a religion that comes from the Jews? Of course not.
• Conclusion: The only religion that makes sense is Islam.

Muslim children become completely convinced that Islam is the right religion and they cannot come to terms with the fact that there are people who follow other religions despite the damming evidence against them. They learn that ‘Alkufr Inad’ which means that all infidels know deep in their hearts that Islam is the right religion but they reject it to avoid the humiliation of appearing to be wrong. Muslims feel lucky to be born as Muslims, hence their common maxim in Arabic ‘Al hamdu lilahi al ni’mati el Islam’, meaning praise be to Allah for blessing us with Islam. With so much luck, Muslims feel they should be thankful to Allah by devoting their lives for His worshipping.
Muslim intellectuals spend years reading and learning the Quran without ever noticing any of its errors, which are cleverly camouflaged in a background of deliberate errors and abnormalities. The Quran’s errors and contradictions just blend well in its general image of being an abnormal book.
The Quran is made to look abnormal because of the excessive use of diacritical marks, which are used scarcely in other books. It is also made to look abnormal because it is not printed in the usual Arabic fonts and doesn’t follow the Arabic writing rules, which makes it look as if it contains excessive typographical errors. From the Muslims’ point of view, the disorganised Quran, with all its repetitions, contradictions and errors are just proofs of its divinity because humans do not write books in such ways.
Muslim scholars continue to stress on the eloquence of the Quran. They stun their audience by discussing in details the use of particular words in particular verse to deliver a precise meaning. They carefully avoid discussing the controversial verses and claim that the repetitions are there for a purpose. They claim that the same verse may have a different resonance in the Muslims’ hearts, depending on its location.
How Muslims learn about Mohammed
Islam emphasises the perfect image of Mohammed, who is portrayed as the best man Allah ever created, or will ever create, to the end of time. Mohammed is considered as an extraordinary blessing from the moment he was born; he was perfect even as a child. His name, which means highly praised, was an extraordinarily beautiful name not used by the Arabs before, as if it was reserved for Mohammed (see note1). The following are some examples of the blessings of Mohammed, which Muslims learn (see note 2):
Mohammed’s wet nurse, Halima, noticed she started to produce more milk after breast feeding Mohammed (we wonder why his mother, Amina, did not enjoy such blessing!)
Mohammed never told a lie as a boy.
Mohammed was known as Al Ameen (the trust worthy) in Mecca. And that was before he became a prophet (see note3).
Mohammed was capable of solving a problem of how to put the black stone in its place. Mohammed’s solution was so genius that averted a civil war among the Arabs.
Mohammed was oppressed in Mecca after he became a prophet, but he was so kind that he refused to ask Allah to punish the Meccan, as some prophets did to their people (see note 4).
Everywhere in Islamic teachings, Mohammed is portrayed as a man of high morality who stood by his principles, a hero who defended the rights of the oppressed and the poor, an enlightened man who waged wars against backwardness and corruption.
When Muslim scholars discuss any of Mohammed’s murders, they choose a special language that helps the Muslims’ conscious to remain untouched. The murder of Asma Bintu Marwan was one of the many disturbing assassinations ordered by Mohammed. All those disturbing murders are cleverly removed from the center of attention in Mohammed’s sira (biography) and kept away in the shade. Most ordinary Muslims don’t even notice them, but even if they do, they do not realize the scale of his cruelty. As an example, this is how ordinary Muslims would read about Mohammed’s assassination of Asma Bintu Marwan:
(Bintu Marwan was an evil woman whose heart was filled with hatred towards Allah and his messenger, peace be upon him. She expressed her evil feelings openly in rude poetry that caused too much offence to the messenger of Allah, peace be upon him. The messenger of Allah asked his companions: who would stop Bintu Marwan’s evil actions for me? One of his companions, Omayr, said: “O the messenger of Allah, I will stop her for you” and when that man came back that night, after employing Allah’s judgement on the evil woman, he prayed in the mosque then told Allah’s messenger, peace be upon him, of what he did. The messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said: “not even two goats would fight over it. Then, peace be upon him, turned to his companions and said: “if any of you wants to see a man who is a helper to Allah and his messenger, he should look at Omayr ”)
From the beginning, the victim was made criminal. The word murder was not even mentioned anywhere and the whole story was made to look as if Mohammed was performing a religious ritual.
It caught my eyes when I read about Mohammed’s marriage to Safeya Bintu Huyai. This took place in Khayber where the Jewish tribe of Banu Nadeer were raided in the early hours of the day(imagine how merciful that was!) and defeated by the Muslim warriors. The palm trees were set on fire, the chief of the tribe was tortured and killed and women and children were taken as war booties, called sabaya (slaves).
When the battle was over, Duhya, one of the companions, came to Mohammed and asked his permission to take one of the captured women to be his own slave, to which Mohammed approved. A short while later, a group of very jealous sahaba complained that the woman was actually the wife of the chief of the tribe, who was just murdered, and was very beautiful. Mohammed ordered the woman to be brought to him; he looked at her and was stunned by her beauty. Muslims’ books describe the scene as this:“The prophet, peace be upon him, threw his gown on her as a sign that he selected her( Istafaha) for himself”. The word Istafa means selected and is usually used to describe blessed selections. Muslims scholars go even further and describe this rape as an act of mercy! They praise Mohammed’s high morality towards his enemy’s wife by offering her two golden opportunities that retain her status; Islam and becoming the prophet’s wife! Indeed, Safyia accepted Mohammed’s offer (the alternative was to remain as Duhya’s slave) and joined Mohammed’s other harem in holding the title the ‘mother of the believers’.
I find it particularly shocking that intellectual Muslims read the story and become touched by Mohammed’s high morality and mercy towards his enemies. I discussed the story with many Muslims, and was amazed at how many of them actually didn’t notice that Safyia’s husband was brutally murdered only a few hours earlier. Their minds were so impressed by Mohammed’s ‘high morality’ to notice Safyia’s ordeal. They were too busy praising Mohammed’s morality to notice that even wild animals do not think of sex after all those scenes of the blood bath that resulted in the actual extinction of an entire tribe.
Although Muslims spend their lives reading about Islam but they never read it with objectivity. The Muslims’ minds and senses are crippled when it comes to objective reading of Islam. It may not be possible to undo a life time’s process of extensive indoctrination by reading a critical article. Islamic indoctrination is an abuse of human minds and there is an urgent need to tell Muslims the truth by systematically and consistently exposing its lies.
_______________________________
Notes:
(Note 1)There were a few named Mohammed, so our Mohammed was not the first. In the sixth century Arabia, rumours were circulating that a prophet will be borne and his name will be Mohammed, therefore, some Arabs started to name their children Mohammed. Others acquired the name after they claimed to be prophets and this is probably how Mohammed acquired his name. There are reports that Mohammed’s original name was Quthem but there is no way confirming either claim. There is evidence that Mohammed had the habit of changing the names of his companions to more suitable names, like Abu Bakr’s name.
(Note 2)None of the above claims can be confirmed.
(Note 3)Al Ameen (Trusworthy) is a title that used to be given to a person who looks after a trade, like saying the treasurer. If the claim is true, which probably is not, Mohammed probably earned it when he looked after Khadija’s trade business.
(Note 4) The claim that Mohammed was oppressed in Mecca is simply not true. Please read MA Khan’s Islamic Jihad: a legacy of forced conversion, Imperialism and Slavery (Chapter 3).


More will follow.

sum

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Fernando
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Re: What are we?

Post by Fernando »

sum wrote:The Quran is made to look abnormal because of the excessive use of diacritical marks, which are used scarcely in other books. It is also made to look abnormal because it is not printed in the usual Arabic fonts and doesn’t follow the Arabic writing rules, which makes it look as if it contains excessive typographical errors.
I'm a bit puzzled here, sum. Could you explain a bit more, please? Are the fonts always the same, are they supposed to be immutable and copied (how?) from the "preserved tablet" that nobody - not even Mohammed - has ever seen? Surely the diacritical marks were added later, making them unauthenic - but weren't they added to make it less ambiguous?
Sorry if I'm diverting the thread a bit.
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah

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manfred
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Re: What are we?

Post by manfred »

Fernando, in Arabic there are three types of "dots" added to a text. The first, and today almost always used, are called "diacritical marks". They distinguish one letter from another. In fact Arabic writing has many quite similar looking letters, for example the "b" and the "n" in the middle or beginning are identical, and they are distinguished with one having a dot below, and the other above.

The second group are dots to signify vowels. These are not generally added to all texts, but sometimes found in editions of the Qur'an, specially if intended for use by non-native Arabic speakers. Some Arabic language courses use them too.

The third group has only one symbol, and that is to"double" a letter: sometimes (not always) a letter is doubled with a little squiggle on the top as opposed to writing it twice.

The thing is, the oldest Qur'anic texts in existence use a script without ANY of those dots, so it is not at all easy to work out what it says and often of course this leaves ambiguity.

Imagine a writing system where "bill, bull, nil, Nel, bell, ball, null, nail and bail" all look exactly the same, and only context allows you to work out what may be meant.

In addition, the Qur'an has many foreign words, often from syriac where the exact meaning is not always clear and even a native Arabic speaker would not know quite what to make of it, and some words we simply don't know at all, which people have guessed ... have a look at how "Al Alaq", (96:2) is variously translated. Often is is a "blood clot", a "sticky mess", "sperm", a "germ cell", even a "zygote"... in reality nobody really knows for sure what on earth it means.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

sum
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Re: What are we?

Post by sum »

Hello Fernando

The quote that you presented was part of the article by Mumin Ali. The words were not mine although I quoted the article.

I feel that manfred is far more able to answer your question. Sorry not to be able to add anything that manfred has not already explained.

sum

sum
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Re: What are we?

Post by sum »

How does the brain react to indoctrination?

http://www.faithfreedom.org/articles/op ... ne-system/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Monday, August 30th, 2010 | Posted by Amil Imani
Islam & The Mental Immune System
Islam and the Mental Immune System
By: Amil Imani & Dr. Wafa Sultan

Our beliefs and ideas make us who we are and the qualities of those beliefs and ideas determine the kind of person we are. We shield and fiercely defend our beliefs and ideas for good reason: without both integrity and internal harmony, the mind becomes disorganized and even dysfunctional. While our inborn immune system fights off viruses and bacteria that aim to kill us, another immune system, the mental immune system—MIS—gradually formed after birth, protects the mind and takes every measure to keep the mind’s ideas and beliefs on the same page. In general we inherit our opinions. We are the heirs of habits and mental customs. Our beliefs, like the fashion of our dresses, depend on where we were born. We are molded and fashioned by our surroundings.

If we had been born in Saudi Arabia, the most of us would have said: “There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his messenger.” If our parents had lived on the banks of the Ganges, we would have been worshipers of Siva, longing for the heaven of Nirvana. As a rule, children love their parents, believe what they teach, and take great pride in saying that the religion of mother is good enough for them regardless of what that religion entails or tells them to do.
Humans are living information machines, receiving input from both external sources as well as the body’s internal cues, processing it in some fashion, and producing output: our thoughts and behavior. From the moment of birth, parents, siblings, and others play a pivotal part in supplying the input messages we receive and influencing how it is processed within us.

The raw material for ideas and beliefs reaches us through the senses. The brain takes the massive barrage of input and attempts to organize it and incorporate it in an orderly fashion: a monumental task that is taken for granted until something goes seriously wrong. Relatively minor glitches in the working of the mind, such as misunderstanding, misperception, and making poor decisions, occur daily and may not present serious problems. Over time, however, even these minor glitches in the mind, caused by faulty input, poor processing or both, can add up and significantly compromise its integrity. This is referred to as “cognitive dissonance” when we become internally incongruent resulting from an inconsistency within our important attitude, beliefs, or behavior, thus we utilize defense mechanisms in order for our ego to deal with the anxiety.

The MIS is not limited to the sole task of preventing intrusion of the disruptive or undesirable input. It also actively seeks ideas that are harmonious and confirmatory of the ones already in the mind. Through the active admission of supporting ideas, the MIS reinforces its defenses and reduces its vulnerability.
Given the tabula rasa—blank slate—nature of the mind, early input becomes of paramount importance in determining its further development. It was in recognition of this reality that the famed behavioral psychologist, J. B. Watson proclaimed:

“Give me a dozen healthy infants, well-formed, and my own specified world to bring them up in and I’ll guarantee to take any one at random and train him to become any type of specialist I might select – doctor, lawyer, artist, merchant-chief and, yes, even beggar-man and thief, regardless of his talents, penchants, tendencies, abilities, vocations, and race of his ancestors. I am going beyond my facts and I admit it, but so have the advocates of the contrary and they have been doing it for many thousands of years.”

What Watson said may not hold perfectly in every case. Yet, the essence of his boast is indeed supported by numerous studies as well as naturalistic observations. Early environmental influences play the cardinal role in programming the mind—setting it on its course. One great example in psychology is the study conducted by Albert Bandura and his colleagues in 1963 called “The Bobo Doll”. Children watched adults interact with a Bobo Doll. Those children who witnessed adults’ model aggressive violent acts towards the doll replicated the observed behavior when given the chance to play with the doll. Subsequently, the children who observed adults play gently with the doll also replicated the behavior. In actuality, the brain seems to say: first come, first served. It is for this reason that Muslims are overwhelmingly born to Muslim parents, Hindus to Hindu parents, Catholics to Catholic parents, and so on.

This is not to say that changes, even major changes, are not possible after the early years. They are possible and they do happen in some instances. However, in order for major changes to happen, major re-working must take place in the mind. Change is effortful and the law of conservation of energy also applies to the working of the mind and mitigates change unless the incentives to do so overcome the default mode of inertia.

The parents, other adults and children, as well as the prevailing culture are powerful teachers and trainers of the young mind. In the Islamic world, Islam permeates every aspect of life with overbearing severity. The young mind has little access to competing non-Islamic input. As the child’s foundation of belief forms, the MIS works to protect it, further reinforce it, and bar, falsify, or dismiss any ideas that may clash with the mind’s already in-place contents.

As humans, we lack comprehensive pre-programmed software—instincts—to direct us in life. We, however, are born with pre-dispositions—rudiments of software programs that will be further elaborated in interaction with life. We are, therefore, importantly dependent on how we and others, and in what fashion, further elaborate the rudimentary software. Somehow, there has been a trade-off. As our brain evolved both in size and power, what few instincts we may have had gave way. In a real sense, we took charge of our own destiny.

Science is learning more and more about the brain/mind, considered by many experts as the most complex and enigmatic entity in the universe. With each passing day, another piece of the brain/mind puzzle falls in place. Just recently psychologist Drew Western and his team at Emory University used FMRI—functional magnetic resonance imaging—on 15 strong Republicans and 15 staunch Democrats to literally pinpoint the parts of the brain involved in what is called “confirmation bias,” the lead faculty of the MIS. The participants were asked to evaluate statements by George W. Bush and John Kerry where the candidates clearly contradicted themselves. The researchers found that the Republicans were as critical of John Kerry as the Democrats were of George W. Bush, while both fiercely defended their respective political comrade.

The surprising part of the study is that while the confirmation bias was at work, the brain areas ordinarily associated with rational decision-making were inactive. By contrast, an elaborate network of brain structures that process emotion and conflicts were highly activated. In short, confirmation bias has its own brain resources that shunt out the reasoning parts in order to protect the already in-place beliefs and preferences.

The confirmation bias, the mainstay of the MIS, protects beliefs values and ideas, be they political, religious, or of any other type; it is also helped in the discharge of its functions by the mind’s defense mechanisms such as rationalization (faulty reasoning) and denial (refusing to accept the reality of the irrefutable). Allocation of extensive faculties of the brain to content protection demonstrates the critical importance to its normal functioning of safeguarding the mind’s contents. It is important to remember that rationality is not the master faculty of the brain.

Emotions also play major parts in even tasks that are ordinarily thought to be the purview of rationality, particularly when one’s beliefs, values, and ideas are at stake. Much of the work of the MIS is done without the person himself being fully aware of it. Confirmation bias seems to be almost automatic and autonomous—a first line of defense against unwelcome intruders and a means of summoning other resources of the mind to defeat the unwelcome invaders.

The MIS is not strictly static and defensive. As it protects what is in-place, it also actively seeks to expand the prowess of the mind by incorporating new knowledge—preferring the kind of knowledge that does not conflict with the body of information already at hand. This necessary openness feature of the MIS makes it susceptible to invasion by some disharmonious input that creates conflicts in the mind and presents the risk of paralyzing or seriously compromising its functioning. “Beliefs” can be thought of as the main framework of the mind while “ideas” are the minor components that connect the grid-work together.

Total or major replacement of beliefs, particularly as one gets older, becomes less likely, yet it happens occasionally. Paul’s sudden transformation from a rabid Christian-persecutor to a devote believer of the faith of Christ is a familiar instance of such a drastic change. Ideas, on the other hand, are much more amenable to change, replacement or discard as long as they do not substantially undermine the integrity of the main framework—the belief.

Lacking pre-programs to negotiate life makes the person his own boss and compass. Being one’s own boss is a mixed blessing. The boss has to make decisions, many with serious implications, and accept responsibility for all outcomes. That’s what the mind has to do at all times. Faced with difficult decisions, conflicting ideas and demands they are not equipped to address, people may resort to a variety of alternatives such as “regression” (acting child-like) to absolve themselves of the responsibility of deciding and acting on their own. People, therefore, are often willing to let someone else do the thinking, deciding and acting for them. Conformity becomes easier because it diffuses one’s own responsibility. In the case of regression caused by the stress of the inability to cope, the person reverts to the time that the parents handled those chores the defense mechanisms act by lessening anxiety caused by the cognitive dissonance.

It is in this vein that some people wish to go back, figuratively, to the primordial time—the time that perhaps our life was steered primarily by reflexes and instincts and the conscious volitional brain played only minor roles. For this reason, there is a great deal of appeal to surrender the brain to another—a substitute for the instincts we lack. By so doing, we would be largely freed from the often daunting task of having to make critical decisions ourselves referred to as: “Diffusion of Responsibility.” That external brain can present itself as a leader, a prophet of God, or a charlatan.

We like to think of ourselves as rational beings. Yet, our rational nature is only one part of the brain/mind enigma. We are also emotional beings. We tend to favor our rational side, because it is generally fact-based, orderly and leaves little room for uncertainty—all importantly operative components of our emotional nature.
Religious belief is primarily emotionally based. There is no way of rationally proving or disproving the religious faith. Faith and reason are not the same. “Fore of the core religious faith is that mystic feeling which unites man with God,” a religious luminary has proclaimed.

There is nothing inherently wrong with religion. Religion can be a tremendous force for the good. However, when religion, this feeling-based belief, is filled with superstition, intolerance and hatred, then the beholder of that religion embodies those qualities and becomes a veritable menace to the self and to others. Feelings energize actions. Destructive feelings energize destructive actions.

Muslims living in theocratic states, in particular, tend to be victims of their religious brains: their religious brains are indoctrinated, from the moment of birth, by an extensive ruthless in-power cadre of self-serving mullahs and imams who are intent at maintaining their stranglehold on the rank and file of the faithful—their very source of support and livelihood. Allah does not reward his followers for their honesty, generosity and bravery, but for the act of faith and blind obedience. Without faith, all the so-called virtues were sins, and the men who practiced these virtues, without faith in Allah, deserved to suffer eternal pain.
The mullahs and imams, as well as parents and others, envelop the receptive mind, feed it their dogma, and shield it from information that may undermine or falsify their version of belief.

Nothing serves as a greater joy than to know that this belief in eternal pain is growing weaker every day — that thousands of brainwashed Mullahs, Imams are ashamed of their action. It gives us joy and hope to know that Muslims are becoming merciful, so merciful that the fires of hell are burning low — flickering, choked with ashes, destined in a few years to die out forever.

However, for as long as there are bigoted, self-serving clergy and their collaborators with first exclusive access to the blank slate, the problem of supplying wave after wave of Islamofascists will persist. It is the brain/mind that assesses things, makes decisions, and orders actions. To the extent that the in-place software of the religious brain is exclusionary in nature, hateful in orientation, and violent in tendency, to that extent the individual is both the perpetrator and the victim of barbaric acts.

The surest way of dealing with Islam’s intolerant views is through effective inculcation of a religious software that promotes tolerance of diversity, freedom of faith and conscious, goodwill to all, as well as purging of all the vile and discriminatory dogma that permeates the out-dated primitive belief of some 1400 years ago. The best place to start is clearly the home, then schools, and mosques where the deeply-entrenched mullahs and imams of vested interest must be compelled by law to refrain from preaching messages of hate and violence against the unbelievers.

Perhaps free societies should constitute a diverse panel of citizens to scrutinize all religious teachings and screen the software programs for destructive viruses. Once these viruses are introduced into the mind, clearing them, as we said before, becomes difficult if not impossible.
A religious brain programmed by the message of justice, love and respect for all is bliss, while the discriminatory, hateful, and violent religious brain is a curse.


sum

sum
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Re: What are we?

Post by sum »

A bit more from Mughal when he was an Infidel -

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewt ... highlight=" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; below

You wrote and I quote:
"Will any ex-muslim please explain to me how the fear of hell is so deeply instilled into a muslim`s mind that it prevents any doubts about Islam from surfacing?"

I have written about it in depth in my articles as to how people born in muslim household are indoctrinated and how they may be unwound or de-indoctrinated.

Islam in not a new thing rather it has been there long before we were born and muslim communities by now have become very much set in their ways.

Islam is talked about on daily basis and many aspects are part of normal muslim conduct.

Islamic teachings and the way of life is designed for indoctrination and reinforcement. Mannerism and rituals are heavily observed. Watch news on muslim radio or tv or other nedia etc eg whatever a muslim does must start with the formula, in the name of Allah the most beneficent and the most merciful. This is the case even with muslim politicians who claim to be secularists and democrats and even in non-muslim countries.

As soon as a baby is born in a muslim household in a muslim country, the imaam is called by the parents to say the ADHAAN (=call for prayer) in the right ear of the new born baby and the AQAAMAT (= announcement that congregation is about to stand up for the prayer) in the left ear.

As soon as a child is able to speak, the formulas that there is no god but allah and muhammad is his messenger and in the name of allah the most beneficent and the most merciful are taught and the child is taught what is Islamically right and wrong. The child is taught what Allah will do if the child does good or bad. The child is taught that it is disrespectful to question religion or religious authorities or to be disobedient to them because so it is written in the quran and the hadith. The child is told what the quran and the hadith is.

Little daily things work as reminders for the child eg saying salaam for greeting people when one meets others and the child is criticised if s/he does not do so.

Thus the child is educated bit by bit about Islam and if any question about anything is asked by a child it is answered the Islamic way. For example, a child asks, who made the word? The answer, Allah. How did he make it? The story of origin of the world is told as is found in the Islamic books with ending Allah knows best.

Only when child go to school for professional education, they learn maths and sciences etc etc but as permitted Islamically. If any teacher or pupil goes beyond what is allowed, they get in trouble. You may remember the case of Dr Younus of Pakistan and various others from around the world.

The critical ability of the individual is guided along rather than being allowed to question things freely. That is because all subjects taught in the schools within muslim countries are under pinned by Islamic teachings and they are set within Islamic limits.

After a person has been through the education system in the muslim countries, it is very difficult to unteach the person what the person has already learned as knowledge and practice. De-indoctrination has to be a forced process if there is any hope of mass de-indoctrination.

For example, for an ex-muslim, it will be very difficult if not impossible to unlearn the behaviour and mannerism etc learned since childhood. To get rid of it one has to be fully conscious at all times and very much self critical which is very difficult indeed.

Another important point to remember would be that once a child is raised in a particular way, the child feel his/her duty to defend it as a matter of honour and self worth ie the loss of self identity or sense of belonging is not acceptable to a person thus indoctrination acts as a virus that reproduces and replicates itself all by itself.

I am very short on time therefore am unable to go into nitty gritty of things but hope others will help build up the picture for you.


Mughal

We now have the normal brain structure which can be changed through environmental circumstances, and indoctrination which can install a belief system into both the normal brain and the structurally altered brain.

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

“Propaganda should be popular, not intellectually pleasing. It is not the task of propaganda to discover intellectual truths.”
– Joseph Goebbels.

sum

Nosuperstition
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Re: What are we?

Post by Nosuperstition »

Watch news on muslim radio or tv or other nedia etc eg whatever a muslim does must start with the formula, in the name of Allah the most beneficent and the most merciful.
As soon as one muslim pupil compares and contrasts the behaviour of Allah being most merciful and Him sending kafirs and bad muslims to everlasting lake of hell-fire,they will understand that the infused religion is but a play of words or a verbal illusion.
De-indoctrination has to be a forced process if there is any hope of mass de-indoctrination.
The Chinese are trying this forced thought change process in their muslim majority region of Jin-Jiang where they are facing an insurrection.Now muslims in those camps are said to be lamenting as to why they are still living and are not yet dead.
palli or halli in Dravidian languages means a village just like gaav in Aryan languages means a village.palli or halli in Aryan Mauryan Imperial era around 200 B.C designates a tribal hamlet.So many of those in South India are indeed descendants of tribals and are still keeping up that heritage.

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