Page 1 of 1

flying chariot delusions

PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:12 pm
by Nosuperstition
Now my father used to tell me frequently in my childhood that one particular woman ancestor in his family was a lot devoted to one of the gods and as a result she supposedly told the then family members that she was told by that god that he is a sending a chariot to fetch her to his world when she was nearing her end.While Hinduism and Buddhism in general are not as organised as Islam and Christianity are,surely when there is an overdose of religious belief it certainly does seem to make people delusional.For example in Judaism,there is a mention of one particular prophet probably Ezra who was taken to God's world in his own(God's own) spacecraft.So does this flying chariot delusion occur anywhere else in any other religion?

Re: flying chariot delusions

PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:22 pm
by manfred
The journey to heaven is a very late addition to the Ezra account, and not something that Jews are required to believe in order to be considered to be part of the religion, more of a folk tale really. It is one of several fanciful tales of that kind about highly respected people from the Jewish community, e.g. a similar tale is found about Elijah. That one is actually in the bible, but also written a long time after Elijah's days, and it has been understood to be an allegory for a very long time.

In Christian tradition, Jesus also returns to heaven, but interestingly without any "assistance" of any chariot or mythical animal. This is because the writers wanted to make the point that heaven is in fact his real, original home.

These various traditions were not lost on Mohammed. As to Jesus, the "ascension" is re-told not as a return home, but as Allah's rescue of a failed prophet.

Mohammed's own journey had to be more spectacular than any before. His journey is on an animal described as a horse with a woman's head whose features in early depictions are clearly "borrowed" from the Hindu goddess Kamadhenu. It also has peacok feathers and the earliest drawing even show buraq with a cow's tail. The pit stop in Jerusalem may well have been a later addition to the story, after the Levant had been conquered by the Muslims and attempts were made to encourage Muslims to settle there. So Jerusalem regained some of its importance it had lost with the change of the qibla, for political reasons. The Qu'ran was "collected" shortly after the conquest of the Levant by Uthman, who was keen to settle many Muslims in the Levant to make it a stronghold. As at the lifetime of Mohammed there simply was no Al Aqsa mosque, the "furthest mosque" of the Qur'an, and it was Umar, after the death of Mohammed and the conquest of the Levant, who had erected some simple structure to be the "furthest mosque" on the temple mount. Just a short while after that, his successor Uthman is most likely to have made an amendment to the Qur'an mentioning the "furthest mosque", to encourage people to live in the otherwise pretty empty Levant.

So Mohammed's night journey, even though fantastic from the start, got a rewrite by his successors, to aid their political aims of the day. Clearly something they learned well from Mohammed.

Re: flying chariot delusions

PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:06 pm
by Hombre
In addition to manfred's excellent & poignant reply. There are other profound differences between Judea & Islam on this topic.

Since Judaism was developed over centuries - where each generation had added its own story - including some bordering with fairy tales. Like the one you cited, & Jonah in the belly of the whale. Nonetheless, these stories are "one of many" stories told in the Hebrew Bible. Therefore, they garner marginal place in Jewish history & belief.

In Islam though - as we all know, Muhammad is the sole story teller, and anythig he said - as absurd as was - it must be believed by Muslims. As central figure - anything related to him is THE story of Islam, such as those night journeys to Jerusalem for refueling (most likely jet engine fuel).

In fact even the Quran mentions it is Sura 115 written in white letters.

Re: flying chariot delusions

PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:22 pm
by Fernando
Of course, you don't need to be religious to go on these journeys. "Aliens abduct" all kinds of people. :sml:

Re: flying chariot delusions

PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 11:02 pm
by Eagle
manfred wrote:These various traditions were not lost on Mohammed. As to Jesus, the "ascension" is re-told not as a return home, but as Allah's rescue of a failed prophet.


Jesus was the final prophet in a series of prophets sent to the Bani Israel exclusively Matt10:5-6,15:24-26,21,Quran3:49, to warn them of their constant betrayal of their covenant with God, including their hiding and distorton of true expression of the Torah, just like Moses foresaw Deut31:25-29 and Jeremiah confirmed Jer2:8,7:21,8:8,23:9-36. Being the last one in the line of Israelite prophets, Jesus had to prophecy the coming of the final prophet who would be sent to all of mankind and he did so through his prophecies of the paraclete, as echoed in the Quran 61:6.
Jesus came to verify the Torah, and to allow some of the things that were forbidden to the Jews through the traditions of men 3:50,5:46,(NT Matt15,23). That is why he applied himself to turning their attention away from their oral man-made traditions to the true divine source, the Torah which he claimed to uphold and fulfill to the letter Matt5:17-20 (The "Law and the Prophets" was a regular expression Jews of Jesus' day used to refer to the entire HB Matt7:12,22:40,Acts24:14,28:23,Rom3:21). The fulfillement of the Torah refers to the revival of its spirit, which the Jews had neglected by concentrating on the ritualistic aspect and issuing ever new conjectured complications to those rituals, attributing their origins to the revealed Oral Torah/Talmud. These additions and the soulless application of the law had distorted Moses' religion beyond recognition Mk7:7. Through a concise statement, the Quran explains the mutual relationship between the Torah and the Gospel; they complete one another by centering the attention on the wisdom and spirit of every aspect of God's Laws so that they do not end up as something lifeless and burdensome for the people 3:48-50"And He will teach him the Book and the wisdom and the Tawrat and the Injeel..And a verifier of that which is before me of the Taurat and that I may allow you part of that which has been forbidden to you, and I have come to you with a sign from your Lord therefore be careful of (your duty to) Allah and obey me".
Jesus repeatedly condemned those traditions in the NT, denounced the Jews and their leaders as "hypocrites" and told the people to beware of these "teachers of law" for their soulless traditions which distorted the Torah and "children of the Devil" because of their claim of inherited righteousness through their affiliation to Abraham Jn8:37-44.

Many of the Prophets the Israelites were sent to were rejected, killed and opposed Matt23:37,Acts7 Jesus being one of them Jn8:37. He explained this wicked trend through The Parable of the Tenants Matt21:33-45 and foresaw their destruction and "that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit" to shut down their constant boasting of their lineage and past covenant with God which they always violated. He continued this way until the hatred and arrogance of the Jewish priests and rabbis made him select a group of apostles from among his few followers to be his helpers in his mission, Jesus sensed their deep unbelief and was afraid that if the conspirors succeeded in destroying his life, his mission would fail 5:111,61:14,3:52"But when Isa perceived unbelief on their part, he said: "Who are my helper to Allah?" The disciples said: "We are helpers of Allah: We believe in Allah and be (our) witness that we are submitting ones". It is a fact that very few Israelites, to whom he was sent and whom he preached for, believed in him during his ministry Acts1:13-16.

According to Islam, Jesus therefore succeeded 100% in conveying the message he was meant to convey. Whether that message survived now or not is irrelevant. The success of a prophet's mission of being the faithful conveyor of his God's message is independant of whether his addressees hearken his calls, mend their ways, preserve his message or attempt to kill him. All prophets attest to this reality. Prophets are not sent to cause forceful spiritual reform. Their duty is only to deliver the warnings and glad tidings, as here stated by the prophet Hud 11:57"But if you turn back, then indeed I have delivered to you the message with which I have been sent to you, and my Lord will bring another people in your place, and you cannot do Him any harm; surely my Lord is the Preserver of all things".
It is then up to the people themselves to hearken the calls and act accordingly. If they do it is for their own benefit, if not it is their own loss. Both outcomes have no bearing on the truthfulness of a prophet or the accomplishment of his mission.

Jesus was then honored and purified from the false charges of the disbelievers meaning his close entourage and few followers were informed of the truth about his last moments on earth, and his followers were later granted dominion over them 3:55"O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (mutawaffika) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so I will decide between you concerning that in which you differed".

manfred wrote:Mohammed's own journey had to be more spectacular than any before.


You dont seem to be familiar with such similar, much more graphic, spirtual journeys experienced by the prophets of the HB. Muhammad was transported (according to tradition on Al-Buraq, the celestial creature -horse-like creatures transported previous prophets on heavenly journeys 2Kings2:11, besides the mention of extraordinary other-wordly creatures by prophets the likes of Ezekiel) from the sacred masjid, ie Mecca, to the farthest masjid, ie Jerusalem, then back to Mecca. The event is shortly mentionned in 17:1"Glory be to Him Who made His servant to go on a night from the Sacred Mosque to the remote mosque of which We have blessed the precincts, so that We may show to him some of Our signs; surely He is the Hearing, the Seeing". The manner and process in which this occured is not precisely stated in the verse, nor did the prophet leave any clear-cut explanation of this experience, but what is certain is that in one night, he was made to see and experience Jerusalem, the farthest masjid in relation to Mecca at the time, and certain aspects of it, as if he was physically there. This is very similar to the prophet Ezekiel's experience, when Ezek40:1"the hand of the Lord was upon me, and He brought me there" ie from Babylon where he was preaching to the enslaved nation of Israelites to Jerusalem, where he would be shown the appearance and measurements of the new temple, in a strong and compulsive way as is so often denoted throughout this book whenever Ezekiel speaks of his revelational experience. Ezekiel continues to relate the event thus "In the visions of God He brought me to the land of Israel, and He placed me on a very lofty mountain..." He was thus "transported" in a manner we cannot fathom, through God's vision, from one distant place to another, interracting with the physical features of the area Ezek47:4"..and he led me through water that reached the loins.." as well as with entities addressing him with terms clearly indicating his presence at that very distant site Ezek40:4"And the man spoke to me, "Son of man, see with your eyes and with your ears hear, and set your heart to all that I am showing you, because in order to show you, you have been brought here; tell all that you see to the House of Israel".

Re: flying chariot delusions

PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 11:34 pm
by manfred
Eagle, it's the middle of the night, and I am tired. I will carefully read all this tomorrow.

Re: flying chariot delusions

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:32 am
by manfred
According to Islam, Jesus therefore succeeded 100% in conveying the message he was meant to convey. Whether that message survived now or not is irrelevant.


Eagle all the argument you make to support that statement you support with quotes from Christian texts, and not Muslim ones.

The Qur'an has next to nothing to say about what Jesus actually taught, but we do get Allah's deception to save him by having someone else to get crucified in his place. According to Islam, the message of Jesus is lost, and his ministry ended in disaster. This leads to the absurdity that Allah started a false religion. You can't have it both ways... one minute the bible is corrupt and the next it is used to make a particular case. Some of your points are more or less right, others are somewhat twisted: e.g. Jesus does not condemn "Jews" in general, but the mechanical approach to religious law as shown by some, not all Jewish religious leaders.

But in general the picture you paint is what Christians believe with respect to the "Law", less minute rules, more of general principles, freedom with responsibility. But why then would Islam step back from that, if the message of Jesus (or rather that part of it) is accepted by Muslims? You need you perform ritual ablutions in at exact way, for example, and you need to say specific words you call "prayer" at prescribed times of the day, and in a prescribed language, with specific body movements, you only eat specific food, and you see other people as "unclean". Is that not the sort of thing Jesus disapproved of, looking at your own version of what he taught? Then why would Mohammed return to the things Jesus spoke against?

Also you mention Ezekiel as an example for another "night journey". This is a false comparison, as right at the start,before the description starts, we are told what follows is a a "vision", i.e. not any actual journey. Look at verse 2 of the chapter you mention. The chapter is meant to bring hope to the people of Israel in Babylonian captivity, but telling them that the temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt and the people will return home. He is delivering that message in the type of language typical of the prophetic tradition in Israel. It is not describing any actual "journey".

All this chapter really provides is a possible inspiration for Mohammed's tall tale, only Mohammed's version really only serves to aggrandise Mohammed, and serves no other purpose. And of course, a mere vision of Jerusalem would not do for Mohammed, it has to be much more because Mohammed was obsessed with "proving" how important he was.

Re: flying chariot delusions

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:41 am
by Eagle
disaster consists in having a messenger of Allah sent with an undeniable manifestation of the truth beaten to a bloody pulp and nailed on a cross by his opponents, with on top of that, having his clear message that didnt deviate an iota from that of his predecessor prophets, and the last one that succeeded him, perveted and assimilated into the religion of a pagan entity, by unknown pagans whose corruptions and silly inventions surrounding Jesus' life events dont stand to historical scrutiny, and neither to any cursory reader of the HB from where they attempted finding a theological basis for their perversions. The Quran, as is clear from the above post clarifies exactly what his mission was, saves his honor both physically and spiritually by clearing him of those that slandered him, attributed false teachings to him, corrupted his message.

as to the rituals, you need to get more familiar with what is left from Jesus' teachings in your books, showing him as never condemning any of those rituals the lazy and arrogant Christian soul is aversed by, abiding to the minutest details of the 'law' and only condemning its soulless application, as was shown in the post above using both the Quran and the NT

Ezekiel's journey was a physical one, as understood by the words in the text as well as the rabbinic comentaries

Re: flying chariot delusions

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:20 am
by manfred
Now, eagle, don't be silly. Why the rant?

You yourself said this:

The fulfillement of the Torah refers to the revival of its spirit, which the Jews had neglected by concentrating on the ritualistic aspect and issuing ever new conjectured complications to those rituals, attributing their origins to the revealed Oral Torah/Talmud.


The Talmud did not yet exist at the time of Jesus, but you correctly pointed out that Jesus did not approve of a ritualistic or mechanical approach to religion.

Then Mohammed comes along and does what exactly? He introduces many new ritualistic and mechanical elements into Islam, like the prayer for example, and he even adopts pagan rituals like the hajj and the fast of Ramadan. So how can Mohammed's message possibly be squared with the Christian one? How can a a huge retrograde step be a "perfection"?

And as to your dismissal of the crucifixion, it sounds like "it cannot be what may not be..."What if the ACTUAL "MESSAGE" was the death on the cross?

Muslims claim that Mohammed "perfected" religion, but in fact he took a big step backwards and endorsed the things Jesus preached against. So it really makes no sense to link Jesus to Islam in any way at all.

Ezekiel's journey was a physical one, as understood by the words in the text as well as the rabbinic comentaries


Do have a look:
In visions of God he took me to the land of Israel and set me on a very high mountain, on whose south side were some buildings that looked like a city



The name for the whole passage is Ezekiel's last VISION. It describes an IDEALISED temple in Jerusalem, quite different from the one destroyed by Babylon, and also different from the one that eventually emerged. It is a message of hope and of comfort, not a record of events.

Suppose a child is crying because his bicycle has been stolen. "You get a new one. The best bike ever. I can see you riding it now." the father says. It is in in this way you need to approach that passage, as a first step.

But there is more to this passage than that... He has included a great many symbolic elements, some with numbers, for example. It is complex, well written passage with a clear aim and with many different sub-topics on the way, a passage far surpassing in quality anything the Qur'an has produced.

Re: flying chariot delusions

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:48 am
by Eagle
The talmud didnt exist but the oral tradition on which it is based existed long before.
You quote something i said without paying closer attention. Jesus revived the spirit without ever denying any ritual. You can complain about me ranting all you want, the fact of the matter is the pagan appropriation of Jesus' mission and life incidents is clear for anyone and the Quran has further stressed this reality all the while restoring the truth regarding Jesus. As to the crucifixion, it could not have happenned, at least not as depicted in the NT.

Ezekiel continuously speaks of forceful transportation there, prior to the verse you quoted, then physically interracting with the features and persons of the place, something impossible if it were a dream like experience. Vision of God is neither equal to "my visions" nor does it negate his physical presence at the site. The issue is how does one get physically transported by the vision of God is a question of faith but there is no denying his physical presence there.

Re: flying chariot delusions

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:39 pm
by manfred
Dear Eagle, your argument from absence really does not work here. Jesus made it abundantly clear what aspect of religion is did not like, and those are the very things that Mohammed introduced, in large numbers.

You might as well say, Jesus never specifically forbade the stealing of electricity, so it must be allowed.

There is no New Testament mandate to include or exclude specific recitations, ceremonial objects, or symbolic physical gestures in worship, but Jesus warned against “vain repetitions” (Matthew 6:7), precisely what Mohammed advocated.

As to the crucifixion, it could not have happenned, at least not as depicted in the NT.


"Whatever may not be, cannot be"?...

So, eagle, when you dismiss the central part of the account of all four gospels as false, how can you at the same time use NT texts to support your suggestion about the teachings of Jesus? Why will you not instead tell us what Jesus taught according to the Qur'an? Would that not be more consistent with a Muslim argument?

There are, however, also several accounts from non-Christian sources about the crucifixion, allow me to put just two:

“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.”


Tacitus, a Roman writer and historian (56-120AD)

“Now around this time lived Jesus, a wise man. For he was a worker of amazing deeds and was a teacher of people who gladly accept the truth. He won over both many Jews and many Greeks. Pilate, when he heard him accused by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, (but) those who had first loved him did not cease (doing so). To this day the tribe of Christians named after him has not disappeared”


Josephus a Jewish historian (37-101AD)

There are even accounts of other writers confirming some of the details recorded in the gospels: the darkness and the earthquake, for example.

Sure, these don't amount to proof positive, but they make a pretty good case, taken all together.

Re: flying chariot delusions

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:41 pm
by frankie
Eagle

Ezekiel's journey was a physical one, as understood by the words in the text as well as the rabbinic comentaries


No is wasn't,it was a prophetic VISION.

http://www.thebiblejourney.org/biblejou ... f-ezekiel/

The Book of Ezekiel was written by the prophet Ezekiel between 593 and 573BC while in exile in Babylonia before and after the final fall of Jerusalem in 587BC. He warns of the impending fall of Judah, then offers hope of a brighter future with the eventual return of the exiles and the restoration of the Temple in Jerusalem.

Ezekiel’s vision of God on his throne

Ezek 1:1-3 Ezekiel is exiled to Babylon with King Jehoiachin of Judah in 597 BC (see 2 Kings 24:10-20). Five years later, in the summer of 593BC, Ezekiel has a vision beside the "River Chebar" (Akkadian, ‘the great river’) – the Shatt en-Nil waterway which ran from the River Euphrates north of Babylon, through Nippur and rejoined the river near Uruk.

Ezek 1:4-28 In his vision, Ezekiel sees the LORD sitting on the throne of heaven: "It looked like a sapphire gem. And on the throne was a shape like a human. Then I noticed that from the waist up the shape looked like glowing metal with fire inside. From the waist down it looked like fire, and a bright light was all around. The surrounding glow looked like the rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day. It seemed to look like the glory of the LORD." (Ezekiel 1:26-28)


Ezek 8:1-18 Ezekiel has a second vision. He is taken by God ‘in the Spirit’ to Jerusalem and is shown the idolatry being practised in the LORD’s Temple.
The Spirit lifted me up... He took me... to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner courtyard of the Temple. In the courtyard was the idol that caused God to be jealous." (Ezekiel 8:3)

"

Re: flying chariot delusions

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:14 pm
by pr126
In the courtyard was the idol that caused God to be jealous." (Ezekiel 8:3)

How can a god have human emotions?

Re: flying chariot delusions

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:37 pm
by manfred
pr126 wrote:
In the courtyard was the idol that caused God to be jealous." (Ezekiel 8:3)

How can a god have human emotions?



Good question... the "jealous God" is a theme found several times in the Pentateuch (Torah), generally when something about other gods or idols is discussed.

Whether God can be jealous is a debatable question, specially as jealousy can be a character fault and why would God be attributed with a character fault.

In the Torah reference "jealous" is given as a "reason" or explanation why people should not worship other gods. It is using the "husband and wife" analogy to say why the worship of idols is bad. It debases "real worship", and is in itself an act of rebellion against God, something that messes up the "covenant" according to Jewish theology. The analogy is clear: if the people choose to turn to other god, YHWH will abandon them, just as a husband may divorce his wife if he has found her "cheating".

What Ezekiel is doing here is merely a play with a phrase that would not be lost on any Jew: It is an indirect reminder of the covenant of Moses, by using an unmistakable phrase from the Torah.

Here is is rather like someone using "strong and stable government" to a UK audience. It would be very clear this is a reference to Theresa May and her poor election result, and not a description of any specific government.

Re: flying chariot delusions

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:40 pm
by Eagle
When Jesus in that passage you referenced denounces certain prayer rituals, he is pointing to their vanity in contents, as was done long before him in the HB for example in Prov28:9 or as is done after him in the Quran, in places too many to reference.
When these prayers Jesus alludes to are false in spirit and directed to false deities then they are vain no matter how many times they are repeated, as in the case of the prayers of the pagans. On the other hand, even if the contents are true in spirit, but the person reciting them is a hypocrite, doing so just to be seen by men and not acting upon the words he utters, then the prayer becomes meaningless, no matter how many times it is repeated, as was the case of certain Pharisees. Jesus then instructs on the mental manner (in submission to God's will Matt6:10) and contents of a meaningful prayer ritual, he doesnt deny its application with steadfastness and constancy if done with the correct mindframe or else that very prayer becomes as meaningless as the prayer of the Pharisees spoken of above, neither does he deny the repetition of any other prayer ritual when done with true form, contents and intention as alluded to in Lk18:7 and as he did himself when he desperately and repeatedly cried to his Lord Matt26:42-44 or as some group of angels unceasingly do in Heaven Isa6:1-3,Rev4:8. The HB contains many repetitive passages, as in Ps136, which any believer may recite during prayers. As to the form of the prayer, it is to be noted that prophets of all times, as seen from both the HB/NT bowed and put their forehead to the ground as the utmost sign of humility to God. The words Muslims recite in each position are highly meaningful and appropriate, but that is another issue neither you nor any one down in this place will have the spiritual receptivity to comprehend.

Re: flying chariot delusions

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:02 pm
by manfred
....put their forehead to the ground as the utmost sign of humility to God.


Humility is not bumping your head on the floor repeatedly and then show off the mark to others to demonstrate how good a Muslim you are. In fact humility is something most Muslims simply fail to comprehend. It is about truly understanding your own nature. It is not about making yourself small with gestures, it is about understanding who you are.

The words Muslims recite in each position are highly meaningful and appropriate, but that is another issue neither you nor any one down in this place will have the spiritual receptivity to comprehend.


To you may have some meaning, how do I know.... To me they are an abomination, forgive my brutal honesty here... "don't make me become like those lesser creatures, the apes and pigs, the Jews and Christians".... that is part of every Muslim "prayer", in very thinly veiled language. All very "humble"....

And here is something else ridiculous: A prayer is void unless you have performed the appropriate ablutions first, unless it says the right words in the right order, with the right movement of the body. If a woman or a donkey walks in front of you it becomes "Invalid", the same if you fart or what not... this is much worse than any Pharisee Jesus spoke to has ever been.

A prayer is not a communication, an attempt of meeting hearts or minds, or just a moment of focus and reflection. it is a a offer of hollow words in Islam, for which the Muslim expects a reward. Most Muslims do not even understand the words they "pray". You are in some ways not the "average" Muslim, and I do credit you you with quite a bit more understanding, which also means you are more responsible for your action than, for example, as an old lady from Java reciting what she has done for decades, without much thought about it or even without knowing what the words say.

If a Muslim rapes and murders a child, he can still collect his reward for prayer, as long as he has a big wash first, because not the murder, but the ejaculation makes him unfit for prayer.

What was that again you said about a ritualistic and mechanical approach to religion being wrong?

You may well know what kind of advice Jesus left about prayer .... can Islamic prayer be further removed from that? And yet Jesus is a "prophet" to you. It seems the only "prophet" that matters to you is Mohammed.