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Jews stoning Jesus

PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 4:11 pm
by Batam
John 10:30-33 'I and the Father are one.'

The Jews picked up stones to stone Him but Jesus said to them, 'I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?' The leaders replied, 'We are not stoning you for any of these but for blasphemy because you a mere man, claim to be God.

Re: Jews stoning Jesus

PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:02 pm
by Hombre
Batam wrote:John 10:30-33 'I and the Father are one.'

The Jews picked up stones to stone Him but Jesus said to them, 'I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?' The leaders replied, 'We are not stoning you for any of these but for blasphemy because you a mere man, claim to be God.
HA?????

Re: Jews stoning Jesus

PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:21 pm
by manfred
I am also not quite sure why we have that, maybe Batam wants to explain it.

The passage is part of a narrative put by John the evangelist. This writer's main purpose was to elaborate on and establish the Christian belief in the divinity of Christ, something obviously rejected by Jews.

The passage starts with the parable of the good shepherd. "A good shepherd lays down his life for his sheep".

The story is, when Jesus was asked by a group of people if the was the Messiah, he gave a curious reply... "I and the father are one."

This enraged some people and they threw some rocks at him. Jesus responded to that basically saying if you don't believe what I say, believe what I do. It did not work well, and Jesus was forced to more or less run way.

The author then balances this account by mentioning that Jesus later went to the spot where he first met John the Baptist and where he was baptised. There he met a different group of people many of whom believed him.


The passage is very rich in symbolism and quite a complex text, one that is central to John's message. I am not here, however, to explain Christianity unless that is demanded by someone, and much less to preach it.

In this chapter, though, there is highlighted the enormous chasm between Mohammed and Jesus... while Jesus plainly says that he will lay down his life, and that that is the centre of his message, the whole point of his existence, for Mohammed the culmination of his teaching is in the end surah 9, the demand to kill and subdue, the exact opposite.

Re: Jews stoning Jesus

PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:50 am
by Batam
Jesus said to Jews, Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered, [Act 7:52]

So you testify against yourselves that you are the sons of those who murdered the prophets. [Matt 23:31]

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling! [Matt 23:37]

You rejected the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. [Act 3:14]

Those Jewish persecutors killed both the Lord Jesus and the Prophets, and drove us out of their midst. They are displeasing to God, and are the enemies of all mankind; [1 Thess 2:15]

Our chief priests and rulers delivered Him up to the sentence of death, and they crucified Him. [Luke 24:20]

So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. [ Matt 23:31]

Because of this, I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify, and others you will flog in your synagogues and persecute in town after town. [Matt 24:34]

The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. [Matt 22:6]

Re: Jews stoning Jesus

PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:29 am
by manfred
NONE these verses you seem to have collected for some reason relate to the original topic. (??)
Jesus said to Jews, Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered, [Act 7:52]


No, Jesus did not say that. This is from and account of the martyrdom of STEPHEN the deacon, something that happened AFTER Jesus. The words you paraphrase here are not exactly what the text says, but they are what Stephen more or less what says as people started to stone him. Stephen's last request, also in that chapter, is a plea for forgiveness for this killing him.

Then, in Matthew 23 you find an discourse of the criticism Jesus levies against the PHARISEES, and not Jews in general. Much of what Jesus mentions applies today also to Muslims who believe that they can bargain with God, and also to a host of other people. Read the chapter, you find it interesting.
The last verse, 27, is a paraphrase quote from the prophet Jeremiah. Why are picking out some verses in this way?

You rejected the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. [Act 3:14]


This is part of a sermon of Peter, reminding people of the how some reacted when Jesus stood trial. He also said this, straight afterwards:

“Now, fellow Israelites, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders.



Next, in the letter to the Thessalonians Paul mentions the persecution of Christians generally in Judea, and his upset because he is separated from them. Paul ALSO was a Jew.


Our chief priests and rulers delivered Him up to the sentence of death, and they crucified Him. [Luke 24:20]


This is part of the account of the death of Jesus. Can you see the word "OUR"?

Because of this, I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify, and others you will flog in your synagogues and persecute in town after town. [Matt 24:34]


This is a misquote, it is Matt 23:34 ... the same chapter you picked other pieces from. Perhaps first look at the whole of that passage? What the whole passage is about is HYPOCRISY, and Jesus addresses some contemporary religious "leaders" with it. It it designed to shake them, so that they start to think.

The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. [Matt 22:6]


This is a sentence from a STORY Jesus told to teach something. Here, have a look:

1Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3 He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

4 “Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’

5 “But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7 The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.



I am not sure what the purpose of this odd collection of texts is, except they seem to be put together to create a picture of anti-Semitism.

Please bear in mind that almost all early Christians were in fact Jews, including all its early leaders, so this is not a historically feasible interpretation. Sure, there are many references to some specific approaches to religion found with SOME Jews (and also many others) which are colourfully criticised. But trying to suggest that the NT teaches the hatred of Jews is quite ludicrous. What is does try to tell you that false self-righteousness or hypocrisy are poor guides to religion, and it simply picks up examples from nearby, so that people can relate to it.


Finally, can you please try to engage in a discussion not by posting a pile of verses, but instead to using your own thoughts and ideas?

Re: Jews stoning Jesus

PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:40 am
by Batam
Jesus declared that Israel’s dominant religious leaders were not in the tradition of Moses, David, and the prophets, but were servants of Satan. And Jews today still have the mindset of Jesus’ enemies in the first century.

Re: Jews stoning Jesus

PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 11:14 am
by manfred
The gospels tell us that Jesus had disagreements with SOME religious figures OF HIS TIME, specifically some of the Pharisees. His strong language is designed to "rattle some cages", to make people think about their own views and practices, some of which Jesus specifically mentions and all of which have to do with hypocrisy. Jesus does not rebuke anyone for their racial origin, but only for their teachings and their behaviour, and he certainly did not call Jews generally this or that.

And the whole point of this was to get them to change. Changing people is not easy and sometimes requires strong words.

Jews today still have the mindset of Jesus’ enemies in the first century.


"JEWS TODAY"???? Do you even know any? Jews today are as diverse as any other nation, with many views on many subjects. And the "mindset" you hint at certainly is not a prerogative of Jewish people. It can be found in people of any religion or none.


The Jewish view of Jesus is essentially that he was a troublesome itinerant teacher who may cause problems for the fragile truce with the Romans, so the decision to get rid of him was a mostly political one. The leaders of the day thought anyone claiming to be "king" in Judea could not possibly be tolerated as it may result in riots against the Romans, and many deaths. That was the decisive reason. However, also, Jesus was seen with suspicion also because he appeared to oppose established religious practices.

Re: Jews stoning Jesus

PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 1:19 pm
by Nosuperstition
It did not work well, and Jesus was forced to more or less run way.


How could it be that the one who can perform miracles such as walking on water , creating multiple bread loaves and fish show not one miracle that might convince those non-believing Jews and instead chose to just run away?

Re: Jews stoning Jesus

PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:09 pm
by Batam
Jewish don't accept the claim that Jesus was the Moshiach. And many Jews dislike the evil that Christians have done to them in the name of Jesus.

Re: Jews stoning Jesus

PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:22 pm
by manfred
Nosuperstition wrote:
It did not work well, and Jesus was forced to more or less run way.


How could it be that the one who can perform miracles such as walking on water , creating multiple bread loaves and fish show not one miracle that might convince those non-believing Jews and instead chose to just run away?


The point of the passage is that SOME will not accept him no matter what he does. It is basically saying that "miracles" will not convince everybody, something quite obviously true.

Re: Jews stoning Jesus

PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:37 pm
by manfred
Batam wrote:Jewish don't accept the claim that Jesus was the Moshiach.



Yes, that is true. So what? There is such a thing as freedom of religion.


And many Jews dislike the evil that Christians have done to them in the name of Jesus.


Things have gotten better in the understanding of each other. There are many more Jewish people who live and work in broadly Christian countries than there are in Israel, and there are very few Jews left who would live in a Muslim country.

And Jesus did not instruct anyone to do any evil to anyone, Jews or anyone else. So while it is clear that Jewish people suffered incredibly, specially in Europe, but also in other countries, it would not be right to lay the blame for that on Jesus. It would also be inaccurate to suggest that ALL of Jewish persecution has been justified by the perpetrators quoting anything from Christian texts. The Nazis certainly did not.

These days, the people who still show hatred towards Jews are the Muslims, and that is because Mohammed told them to hate and despise them.

Re: Jews stoning Jesus

PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:25 am
by Batam
Pilate asked the crowded Jews, "What shall I do, with Jesus called the Messiah?" The Jews replied, "Crucify him!" Pilate made it clear that Jesus was innocent, but "they shouted louder," Crucify him! '" The Jews really suffered because of the curse and rejection of Jesus. On the way to the cross, Jesus swore to Jews for the crucifixion of Christ, Jerusalem was completely destroyed by the Romans. The Jews were scattered, and almost 2,000 years until 1948 they had no homeland and seized land of Palestine.

Re: Jews stoning Jesus

PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:58 am
by Hombre
Indeed, After Bar Kochvah, many Jews did not want to anger the Roman rules, and wished to live in peace. Though Jesus preached peace and self sacrifice - Roman also saw him as a threat to their brutal rule, and crucified him.

The Jews were scattered, and almost 2,000 years until 1948 they had no homeland and seized land of Palestine.
This sentence sounds very familiar. mmmm Was it our Muslim friend SAM who posted this exact phrase before? :???:

Re: Jews stoning Jesus

PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:18 am
by manfred
Pilate asked the crowded Jews, "What shall I do, with Jesus called the Messiah?" The Jews replied, "Crucify him!" Pilate made it clear that Jesus was innocent, but "they shouted louder," Crucify him! '"


A small group of people organised the arrest of Jesus, they took him the the high priests who thought he was a blasphemer, but because they had no power of sentence due to the Roman occupation, he took Jesus to the Roman governor to judge him. They did no mention "blasphemy" as a charge, because the governor would not hear such a case, but they alleged secession as he was sometimes called a "king".

The "crowd" would have been very small, and it would have been easy to plant a few "hecklers". In fact we are told as much: Matthew 27:20 says, “The chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowd.”

The Jews really suffered because of the curse and rejection of Jesus. On the way to the cross, Jesus swore to Jews for the crucifixion of Christ, Jerusalem was completely destroyed by the Romans. The Jews were scattered, and almost 2,000 years until 1948 they had no homeland and seized land of Palestine.


Jesus did not curse "the Jews". He prayed for them:
Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."Luke 23:24

However he did predict the destruction of the temple. Given the times he lived in that is a reasonable prediction. The reason this happened has nothing at all to do with Jesus or Christians, but with a Roman emperor planting a bust of himself into the temple, expecting it to be worshipped. As a result all hell broke loose, we know how Romans dealt with riots.

The Jews were forcibly driven from their land, and the empty region was renamed from "Judea" to "Palestina", after Pleshet, a remote fishing port and trading post in the South . A few Jews managed to stay, and later other people, mostly Arabs, came, but not many. Only after the formation of Israel was there a sizeable influx of people from neighbouring countries.

In 1948 a very old injustice was at least partially put right.

Re: Jews stoning Jesus

PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:13 am
by Batam
Jews are seen as carriers of a uniquely transcendent evil. No other group of people on the planet is accused so much and of such fantastic wrongs. The fact also, in European opinion, that Israel poses the greatest danger for world peace, as it evokes enmity of Muslims and Christians.

Re: Jews stoning Jesus

PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:29 am
by pr126
Batam wrote:Jews are seen as carriers of a uniquely transcendent evil. No other group of people on the planet is accused so much and of such fantastic wrongs. The fact also, in European opinion, that Israel poses the greatest danger for world peace, as it evokes enmity of Muslims and Christians.

Do you hold the same opinion?

Re: Jews stoning Jesus

PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:24 am
by manfred
Batam wrote:Jews are seen as carriers of a uniquely transcendent evil. No other group of people on the planet is accused so much and of such fantastic wrongs. The fact also, in European opinion, that Israel poses the greatest danger for world peace, as it evokes enmity of Muslims and Christians.


Jews are seen as carriers of a uniquely transcendent evil.

Who sees "Jews" as "carriers of uniquely transcendent evil". Batam?

No other group of people on the planet is accused so much and of such fantastic wrongs

Do accusations by others result in an entire people being a "transcentental evil"? Few other people suffered as much injustice as the Jews, in fact I cannot think of any.

The fact also, in European opinion, that Israel poses the greatest danger for world peace, as it evokes enmity of Muslims and Christians.


There may be some who think things like that in Europe, but it is not "European opinion".

it evokes enmity of Muslims


So Jews are "evil" because their existence upsets Muslims?

Re: Jews stoning Jesus

PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:13 am
by Nosuperstition
manfred wrote:
Nosuperstition wrote:
It did not work well, and Jesus was forced to more or less run way.


How could it be that the one who can perform miracles such as walking on water , creating multiple bread loaves and fish show not one miracle that might convince those non-believing Jews and instead chose to just run away?


The point of the passage is that SOME will not accept him no matter what he does. It is basically saying that "miracles" will not convince everybody, something quite obviously true.


The point is that the gullible will easily fall for the miracles while the not so gullible will say that those miracles are from an evil source.Some Jews of those period wrote that Jesus learned sorcery in Egypt with the help of which he performed miracles.So while miracles will definitely not convince everyone to the path of Jesus,a miracle such as say turning those hurled stones into flowers would have definitely helped more gullible to come to his path.If miracles are totally useless , Jesus needn't have resorted to the supposed miracles of walking on water etc.

Re: Jews stoning Jesus

PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:39 am
by manfred
Well, that is YOUR point, not the point of the passage.

The text contrasts two very different scenes in the same chapter, one where Jesus is rejected, where "miracles" are disregarded. The other is where he he believed and miracles not asked for.

So the point it tries to make is that "signs", as you have demonstrated by your own reply, are only any use to those who are willing to believe in the first place. A miracle may sometimes help to support or "confirm" a pre-existing belief, is is virtually never the actual reason for a belief.

The author John would have replied to you that even turning the stones into flowers would not have convinced everyone. As you say, some would have thought it a cheap trick, others might think of "black magic" and the like. A "miracle" only becomes that in the faith that is brought to the situation. One person may see a "miracle", another may see nothing worth talking about, or may suspect a fraud.

And, about that other point, as a rule Jews have very little interest in Jesus. There are some short passages in the Talmud mentioning Jesus, mostly indirectly. There were ALL written hundreds of years later and often stem from a time of persecution or at least challenge, so they have a polemic tone. They are designed to keep much later Jews away from Christianity.

There are no Jewish contemporary writings about Jesus at all. The earliest mentions are in Josephus, who was born a few years after the death of Jesus, so he may have come across some Christians, but he would have never met Jesus himself.

Re: Jews stoning Jesus

PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:53 pm
by SAM
What the f*ck you trying to cover up. after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, the Jews lived in contempt, expulsion, slavery, exile by Roman Christians until Umar captured Jerusalem, they were justified to return under Islamic rule. Before the advent of Islam, Christians regarded Jews as having a bloody history with Christians joining the Romans. Because they claimed the Jews killed Jesus Christ called the son of God. So Christians have persecuted the Jews in their country, even after the advent of Islam, white Christians still do evil, commit crimes, tyranny and injustice to Jews.