Faith Freedom International

Hi all -

I need the help of ex-Muslims and those critical of Islam. I want to set up a website that focuses on "Islam is an ideology, not a religion".

T do this, I need *proof* that helps to support my case, so anything that helps with this is very welcome. SOURCES for the stuff below are very welcome!

So far, I've got the following bits of proof for "Islam is an ideology" -

* Islam fails four major tests that religions should fulfill:
* Adherence to a religion must be a personal choice;
* no religion should demand that those who leave it be killed;
* a religion must never mandate the subjugation of those who do not belong to it;
* a religion must be in accord with basic human rights.

* Islam's stating that Mohammad was the "ideal role model" for all Muslims to follow and emulate. Stating that a person is an "ideal role model" for people to emulate is hardly "religion". It is one of the characteristics of a CULT.
Certainly comes under ideology.

* Islam's use of many pre-Islamic things, plus its borrowing things from Christianity and Judaism. A "serious" or "valid" religion would stand completely on its own merits, not having the need to take elements of "this and that" from elsewhere. This behaviour lends more weight to the "Islam as ideology" argument.

* Islam's forbidding of the questioning or criticism of Islam. Yet another characteristic of
a cult. Not "religious", but ideological.

* Islam's goal to "dominate the world" and fight until all non-Muslims are either killed or convert is extremely aggressive - completely and utterly non-religious. That is pure (and evil) ideology.

* Islam's use of lying and deception of non-Muslims to achieve its goals. This too is pure plotting and scheming - non-religious and definitely ideology.

* Islam's rules about the division of the "spoils of war", including valuables and women.
Very materialistic,not at all "religious". Definitely ideology.

* The Muslim Brotherhood has stated that their goal is "to undermine the United States".
This is not something that a "religious" group would seek to do. It is very much ideological in nature.

* I saw a figure of 60% mentioned as the percentage of the Quran that deals with non-Muslims. I don't know how accurate that is (confirmation of that would be good), but if that is true, then that too is strong evidence for Islam as an "ideology". What kind of "religion" would dedicate 60% of its "holy book" to those outside it?

* The percentage of the Quran/hadith/Sira that are hateful towards non-Muslims.
I am unsure what this percentage is, but I think it's pretty high. Proof of what the percentage is would be very useful.

* There are very many similarities between the Quran and Mein Kampf as far as the treatment of non-Muslims and Jews is concerned.

* Islam was closely allied with Nazi Germany in WWII - the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, and I think there was either a Muslim SS unit or a Yugoslav Muslim Nazi unit.

- enceladus

enceladus wrote: * Islam fails four major tests that religions should fulfill:
* Adherence to a religion must be a personal choice;
* no religion should demand that those who leave it be killed;
* a religion must never mandate the subjugation of those who do not belong to it;
* a religion must be in accord with basic human rights.

You'll have to add a qualifier to your opening statement. i.e. "Islam, as it is practiced today, fails four major tests that religions should fulfill:"

This is needed because the immediate reaction from others will be, "The [insert religious text of choice] also says to kill apostates and subjugate disbelievers".

Muslims will certainly do this. Even other critics of Islam will do this (happens all the time on FFI where posters attempt to hijack threads about Islam and turn the focus on Christianity).

The important thing to remember is that these tu quoque arguments are almost always very weak and rely on a host of other fallacies such as false equivalence.

Today, it is only mainstream Islam that calls for the death of apostates or the subjugation of others, so the extra qualifier will make redundant any out-of-context references to Christian, Hindu or Jewish scripture.

enceladus wrote: * Islam's use of many pre-Islamic things, plus its borrowing things from Christianity and Judaism. A "serious" or "valid" religion would stand completely on its own merits, not having the need to take elements of "this and that" from elsewhere. This behaviour lends more weight to the "Islam as ideology" argument.

That's not a valid argument. Every religion borrows at least a little from older beliefs.

enceladus wrote: * Islam's use of lying and deception of non-Muslims to achieve its goals. This too is pure plotting and scheming - non-religious and definitely ideology.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur'an,_Hadit ... _Deception" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You didn't call it "taqiyya", which is a good thing. Critics who insist on calling it that, only provide apologists with wiggle room.

The evidence clearly shows that taqiyya is accepted by both Sunni and Shi'ite sources (although Sunnis do not like that title), but it also shows that taqiyya is a specific form of lying - a harmless form - meant to preserve one's life.

There is nothing wrong with this. In fact, I would say the ones who object to a Muslim saving their life through lying, are the immoral ones. During WWII, many Christians lied or used deception in order to save Jews. This is not exactly the same thing, but you get the idea.

However, beyond taqiyya, there is lying to your wife, lying during wartime, lying to non-Muslims, lying to silence criticism, and the list goes on and on.

These latter examples are what critics are really referring to, but because they insist on incorrectly labeling it taqiyya, apologists can continue deceiving others by repeating the "taqiyya is only to save one's life" line.

In short, there is no need for critics to give their behavior a nice and exotic-sounding name. Call it what it is, religiously permitted lying.

enceladus wrote: * I saw a figure of 60% mentioned as the percentage of the Quran that deals with non-Muslims. I don't know how accurate that is (confirmation of that would be good), but if that is true, then that too is strong evidence for Islam as an "ideology". What kind of "religion" would dedicate 60% of its "holy book" to those outside it?

* The percentage of the Quran/hadith/Sira that are hateful towards non-Muslims.
I am unsure what this percentage is, but I think it's pretty high. Proof of what the percentage is would be very useful.

http://www.cspipublishing.com/statistical/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_Statistics_(Scripture" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

enceladus wrote:* There are very many similarities between the Quran and Mein Kampf as far as the treatment of non-Muslims and Jews is concerned.

* Islam was closely allied with Nazi Germany in WWII - the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, and I think there was either a Muslim SS unit or a Yugoslav Muslim Nazi unit.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Nazism" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Antisemitism" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I can think of a killer argument, but first you would have to accept/claim that Mohammed was not the founder of Islam. It's been suggested that Mohammed was - or was invented as - a hook on which to hang a new "religion" that was wanted by the Arabs to provide them with a history and cult to justify/reinforce the empire that they were building. To match the religions of the cultures they were busy destroying - they needed to have their own Book. I can't recall who suggested this, but I was reading Tom Holland at the time I came across it. Robert Spencer too, but I don't think it was he. Maybe Crone and her associates?

Hi again -
Thanks very much for your feedback, IslamoCritic and Fernando!
In particular, those links that you posted, IslamoCritic - they are *exactly* what I was looking for! A very big thanks for those! They will be *extremely useful.*
- enceladus