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Atrocities against Muslims & FFI's Mission

PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 1:42 am
by Ansar al-Zindiqi
I've been told by two posters at these forums (Stronglove and ringmaster) that posting about the current situation in Burma in which Muslims have been massacred hurts the "anti-jihad movement" because it is "diversionary". As far as I'm concerned that's incredibly wrongheaded and their answers have hardly been honest. Let it be known that there are those who consider the "anti-jihad movement" as something that should be a goon show with little room for reflective thought as well as using it as a platform for engaging in their own pathological behaviors. These two seem to want the "anti-jihad movement" ( whatever that is) to be just that.

I will continue to post whatever I want to post about and if it is about Muslims being attacked then I'll post about that too. I remember when this website and forums started and there have been a fair number of postings showing the horrors of atrocities against Muslims. This is the first time I've ever read such stupid reasons for NOT talking about the subject. In all these years nobody has been stupid enough to try to stop someone from talking about it. That should tell us just how just a couple of highly compromised individuals with very little ethics can bring down the quality of discourse to gutter level and then demand that the rest of us toe the line they have proclaimed as the straight path.

Re: Atrocities against Muslims & FFI's Mission

PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 4:00 am
by IslamoCritic
Ansar al-Zindiqi. To be honest, I'm still trying to figure out what exactly they have taken offense to. I don't see any problems with your posts. Tu quoque arguments infuriate me. I've probably rebutted more of them than any of the current FFI forummers, but that is hardly an accurate description of your post. Working against this so-called "anti-jihadist" movement would be derailing threads concerning Islam with silly arguments trying to equate Christianity with Islam (something which many of FFI's pro-Hindu posters often do). But yours is not derailing any current discussion. And the idea that atrocities against Muslims should be ignored is abhorrent. As I said, we have Hindu poster criticizing Christianity, Christian posters criticizing atheism, atheist posters criticizing every religious belief under the sun, yet mentioning the slaughter of Muslims should be against forum rules? This forum has several sub-forums that are meant for criticizing non-Islamic beliefs (e.g. God & Religion, Food for Thought, etc.). If your posts were somehow against policy, then these forums should not exist and a good many of its members should be chastised for going "off-topic".

Re: Atrocities against Muslims & FFI's Mission

PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 4:41 am
by StrongLove
Ansar al-Zindiqi you miss understand me. If you go to the thread in question you will see I actually said .

You can no longer claim to be the civilised side with actions like this. Beating people to death in the streets & starting them on fire? That is the actions of a savage. The very reason we don't want islam in power in the first place! If we give up the principles we believe in but eject islam from our countries the savages still are in power.

Violence is the last resort.


You tacked another article on to the thread "It's not so strange for a Buddhist to endorse killing" then you were just complaining about Buddhism. That's what I was addressing. Have you never encountered the concept of putting aside differences to combat a common enemy? If you decide to fight all concepts of reality except the one you approve of, yes you DO weaken the anti-jihad movement.


I do not want to argue with you. I don't think I'm some authority figure. I was hoping I could convince you that fighting amongst our selves is counter productive.

Re: Atrocities against Muslims & FFI's Mission

PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 5:31 am
by skynightblaze
Just 2 cents from me. There is nothing wrong in posting about atrocities committed against muslims. We have plenty of fora which deal with subjects other than islam so clearly the rule of the forum is not that we need to discuss islam related things only. Ofcourse you hurl accusation against Ansar that he is diverting from the main aim of the forum. I dont think Ansar is diverting from the main aim of FFI. How many topics has be posted really to claim that he is going against the main aim of this forum? 1 or 2 topics is not diverting from the main aim especially when you have 100;s of topics that are anti islam. You guys(Ringmaster and Strong love) can make claims that he is going against the main aim by discussing other topics that are not related to islam only when he (Ansar) is frequently focusing religions other than islam. It is the frequency that matters here. Ansar does not post such topics regularly. Our prime focus is always islam and more than 90% of the topics deal with islam. That is good enough.

Finally , no matter how many valid points you make,if you do not show balanced or fair criticism then none would take you seriously. The battle is half lost when the opponent thinks that you are not fair in your approach so naturally the gravity of your message is lost. We want to be effective and that requires fair criticism.

Re: Atrocities against Muslims & FFI's Mission

PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 6:37 am
by manfred
I think ANYTHING relating to Islam, such as news, analysis of teachings or practice, developments and trends, reactions to Islam and so on definitely belongs to our forum.

We often complain about media coverage on issues about Islam. Let's not do the same. All and every viewpoint should have a voice. However,, also every viewpoint should be open for debate and challenge. Saying we cannot mention anything about attacks on Muslims makes us no better than the mainstream press who cannot mention that there is a connection between Islam and terrorism.

It's complex, a lot of it wretched, but if we even can't talk about something, then who can?


Personally, I only draw a line when it gets to persistent verbal abuse and nothing else, you know the kind of thread that endlessly goes "you are stupid" and "no, you are", or when we get calls for violence behaviour.

What is happening in Burma is a shadow of things waiting for us in Europe. We can ignore it, if we cannot handle it, but we better take notice. One of the odd effects of increasing influence of Islam is a certain brutalisation of society. It's like the fever battling the illness. But fever can kill, too.

We are beginning to see signs like that elsewhere, even in Europe.

Re: Atrocities against Muslims & FFI's Mission

PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 12:34 am
by idesigner1
Ansar al-Zindiqi wrote:[color=#0000FF]I've been told by two posters at these forums (Stronglove and ringmaster) that posting about the current situation in Burma in which Muslims have been massacred hurts the "anti-jihad movement" because it is "diversionary".


It is the opinion of these two posters. Its not policy of FFI .

If these two posters justify or glee or support massacer of muslims ,you can complain to moderator.

On other hand one can make a point that non muslims are so brutalized by Islam that they use islamic tactics to defeat islam. I guess its poor excuse.

Western world talks lot about persecution of muslims in Burma but no one wants go into detail and look at sins of muslim minority there. No one likes to talk about persecution of Hindus and christians in next door Bangladesh.

So called civilized world wish that they can ban talking about plight of non muslims in muslim country.

Re: Atrocities against Muslims & FFI's Mission

PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:10 pm
by ringmaster
idesigner1 wrote:
Ansar al-Zindiqi wrote:[color=#0000FF]I've been told by two posters at these forums (Stronglove and ringmaster) that posting about the current situation in Burma in which Muslims have been massacred hurts the "anti-jihad movement" because it is "diversionary".


It is the opinion of these two posters. Its not policy of FFI .




Precisely. They are opinions, and apparently for having opinions we are “callous bastards”. This kind of ad-hominem stuff is totally uncalled for.

I challenge anybody to find anything said personally by me about another member in here that is as coarse and low-class as that.

What is also uncalled for is the condescending ad-hominem nature of AAZ’s response. For having opinions we are “rookies”, as if to say that one’s seniority in this forum automatically counts for some sort of enhanced or privileged place in it.

Based on AAZ's apparent "tolerance" for the opinions of others, he/she would be a good fit as a muslim.


idesigner1 wrote:If these two posters justify or glee or support massacer of muslims ,you can complain to moderator.



We haven't done that. We merely expressed the opinion that there are far more relevant issues at hand. To explain why Buddhists or anybody else attacks muslims, or even to be indifferent about it (which I am), is not to condone it. Far more relevant is the plight of non-muslims where muslims are trying to take over the agenda, or where they have succeeded completely in taking over the agenda.

We get enough one-sided politically correct crap in the media that ignores the strictly islamic character of muslims brutalizing and murdering non-muslims. I have never advocated violence against anybody, but I am not going to scream about the “rights” of muslims when somebody takes measures against them, especially when it comes from a group like Hindus or Buddhists who have been brutalized and murdered by muslims for centuries.

To me, the incident posted by AAZ is just karma. That is not an attempt to JUSTIFY it. It is merely my opinion as to WHY it happens. What goes around comes around. The major burden of behaviour modification does not change one iota. That burden remains with muslims.

Based on what Hindus and Buddhists have endured from muslims over the centuries, I am more inclined to suggest that their behaviour has been remarkably restrained. I have a similar view of the post-war Soviet occupation of East Germany. Lots of nasty things happened that one should not condone, but after suffering more than 20 million dead from the Nazi invasion, I think the post-war behaviour of the Russians was remarkably restrained.

idesigner1 wrote:
On other hand one can make a point that non muslims are so brutalized by Islam that they use islamic tactics to defeat islam. I guess its poor excuse.



Not entirely. It is not unreasonable for people, whom muslims have murdered in huge numbers over the centuries to perceive the immediate presence of muslims as a threat. This is not an attempt to justify or condone what they did, but I UNDERSTAND why they did it.

Besides, and I can only speak for myself, I have never walked a mile in the same shoes (vis-a-vis muslims) as have, over the centuries, Hindus and Buddhists, so, I am not going to be unduly judgmental about them.


idesigner1 wrote:
Western world talks lot about persecution of muslims in Burma but no one wants go into detail and look at sins of muslim minority there. No one likes to talk about persecution of Hindus and christians in next door Bangladesh.

So called civilized world wish that they can ban talking about plight of non muslims in muslim country.



Precisely.

Not to mention the behaviour of a turd like Anjem Chaudery, who with virtual impunity can advocate the murder of non-muslims on British TV. Non muslims who advocate the reverse would be charged with a hate crime. I am not suggesting that somebody bump off Chaudery. If somebody did, I would not have a celebratory drink over it. However, you can be damn sure I won’t sending any sympathy cards to his family either.

I feel the same way about those muslims in Burma. I am no mood to send sympathy cards to people who are religiously committed to kill me, but apparently for that, I am a “callous bastard”.

Re: Atrocities against Muslims & FFI's Mission

PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:25 pm
by ringmaster
Ansar al-Zindiqi wrote:
I've been told by two posters at these forums (Stronglove and ringmaster) that posting about the current situation in Burma in which Muslims have been massacred hurts the "anti-jihad movement" because it is "diversionary".




Yes. It is my opinion. It is diversionary because of the reasons that I and others have given.

Neither Stronglove nor I have resorted to personal insults when we disagreed with you.


Ansar al-Zindiqi wrote:
As far as I'm concerned that's incredibly wrongheaded and their answers have hardly been honest.



You can say what you want.

Our answers have been honest.

If you think we are “wrongheaded”, you are absolutely entitled to say so. You don’t have to stoop the level of calling people “callous bastards” or “bigots” (as another poster has done).


Ansar al-Zindiqi wrote:
I will continue to post whatever I want to post about and if it is about Muslims being attacked then I'll post about that too.



Has anybody told you not to post anything?

You can post all the stuff you want. If people think that what you say is relevant, they can say so. If people think the opposite, they can say that too.


Ansar al-Zindiqi wrote:
I remember when this website and forums started and there have been a fair number of postings showing the horrors of atrocities against Muslims. This is the first time I've ever read such stupid reasons for NOT talking about the subject.



My oh my. The good old days. That’s why you call people “rookies”.

Anybody who disagrees with your emphasis is "stupid"??

Anybody who disagrees with your emphasis is a "callous bastard"?

Ansar al-Zindiqi wrote:
In all these years nobody has been stupid enough to try to stop someone from talking about it.



If I were to try to stop you talking about it, I would have explicitly said so. I did no such thing. I never complained to the admins. I merely questioned the relevance of what you were talking about, and in so doing didn’t resort to name calling.

Stop being such a crybaby.

I have never tried to shut you up. You are the supplicant here. You are asking the forum to shut us up.

I am not even going to complain about being called a “callous bastard”. Cry-baby behaviour is only coming from one source here.

Ansar al-Zindiqi wrote:
That should tell us just how just a couple of highly compromised individuals with very little ethics can bring down the quality of discourse to gutter level and then demand that the rest of us toe the line they have proclaimed as the straight path.


Is English your first language? Neither Stronglove nor I have made any demands upon what others should think or what they should write. We can, however, express our opinions, and we do so without coarse and vulgar personal insults.

We haven’t called you any nasty names whatsoever. The only gutter level behaviour in here has been from you.

Disagreements are merely that. They are not demands.

Grow up.

Re: Atrocities against Muslims & FFI's Mission

PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:13 pm
by manfred
Oh my oh my,

just in case anyone decides to drag me into this because I moderate here, let me tell you that I am out of action for the the next week or so, due to a stint in hospital.

Ask Ariel or Marie...

Can I just say, it is perfectly fine to have different opinions. In fact, what a dull forum would we have if everybody always agreed with everybody else.

My penny's worth is that an HONEST argument is the best one. When we talk about atrocities we like to understand why they happen. Why would this natural interest be limited only to those atrocities committed by Muslims?

We had the crusades, something certain preachers like to wallow in self-loathing about, and endlessly apologise for. In fact, something very violent happened before even the first crusade, and for a very long period of time. Often violence breeds violence. Understanding cause and effect is the key.

Sometimes Muslims are at the receiving end. We should ask the exact same questions about who did what with what intention and motive. We should also, as we ask when we ourselves are at the receiving end, enquire why someone would want to carry out an attack on Muslims. At the end of the day, we are all people, and a Muslim hurts, bleeds and dies just like anybody else does. A Muslim mother grieves over her dead son in the same way we all would. Nobody has a monopoly on pain.

If we do our investigation in complete honesty, we will find that it only "harms the anti-jihad movement" if we allow ourselves to adopt the same "permanent victim" "permanent bogeyman" mentality we so often find in Muslims posting here...

So, I have no problems being told about acts of violence against Muslims. I want to know and understand all facts to do with such things. But I would want to put all of it into one big picture, all of them.

I hurt when I see a mother cry over her dead baby, and it does not matter who she is.

However, when this big picture slowly begins to emerge, it is impossible to miss the contribution Islam makes to all of this.

Re: Atrocities against Muslims & FFI's Mission

PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:54 pm
by ringmaster
manfred wrote:
Oh my oh my,

just in case anyone decides to drag me into this because I moderate here, let me tell you that I am out of action for the the next week or so, due to a stint in hospital.



Good grief. I came back to this after a few days of fishing.

manfred wrote:
Can I just say, it is perfectly fine to have different opinions.



I agree. But calling someone a “callous bastard” for having a different one is not acceptable.

manfred wrote:
My penny's worth is that an HONEST argument is the best one. When we talk about atrocities we like to understand why they happen. Why would this natural interest be limited only to those atrocities committed by Muslims?



If that is someone’s opinion, that’s fine, but in here I believe it to be a diversion. That is my HONEST opinion and I am entitled to it and I see nothing in forum policy that prevents me from expressing it.

We get a belly full of "muslims' victimhood" and how "islam is not the cause" of muslims' violence" from the Mainstream media, but I am not going call somebody (either inside or outside the media) a “callous bastard” for thinking that way.

I am not going to be quite so kind to a guy like Anjem Chaudery who openly advocates the killing of non muslims. I have already made my position clear on him.


manfred wrote:
Often violence breeds violence. Understanding cause and effect is the key.



I have tried to make exactly that point

manfred wrote:
If we do our investigation in complete honesty, we will find that it only "harms the anti-jihad movement" if we allow ourselves to adopt the same "permanent victim" "permanent bogeyman" mentality we so often find in Muslims posting here...



Who has been preponderantly the victim and preponderantly the bogeyman has been pretty consistent since the time of the prophet. That is not universally 100% the case, but it certainly is in most material respects.


manfred wrote:
So, I have no problems being told about acts of violence against Muslims.



Neither do I. People can say what they want. But if I have an opinion on its relevance, I will say so.

But vulgar and condescending ad hominem name calling?? Not necessary in here.

manfred wrote:
However, when this big picture slowly begins to emerge, it is impossible to miss the contribution Islam makes to all of this.



Exactly.

What goes around comes around.

Re: Atrocities against Muslims & FFI's Mission

PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:03 pm
by manfred
I completely agree that verbal abuse is not appropriate here, but sometimes people get upset and say things. It would not be right to jump on every single remark like that. As a rule I only get involved as a moderator if the name calling goes on and on.

Now that Ansar knows that he has upset you, he can decide how he wants to deal with that. I am not his or anybody else's nanny. If I had upset you because of bad language I would say sorry for the language, but not for any points I made. But everybody is different.

Now please excuse me for butting out for a few days, I have a lot of pain and I am having an operation tomorrow, which worries me...

Re: Atrocities against Muslims & FFI's Mission

PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:14 pm
by StrongLove
Good luck tomorrow Manfred. My thoughts are with you.

Re: Atrocities against Muslims & FFI's Mission

PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:57 pm
by ringmaster
manfred wrote:..................................

Now that Ansar knows that he has upset you, he can decide how he wants to deal with that. I am not his or anybody else's nanny. If I had upset you because of bad language I would say sorry for the language, but not for any points I made. But everybody is different.

....................


He has not upset me at all. Before I retired I was in a business where I had to deal with the public on a daily basis. My skin is way too thick for that stuff to upset me.

I actually saw the epithets before I went fishing, but decided that fishing was much more important than an immediate response to crap like that.

Re: Atrocities against Muslims & FFI's Mission

PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:59 pm
by antineoETC
It's like this: whereever populations of Muslims settle the native non-Muslim population finds themselves subject to patterns of behavior that they find threatening and frightening. Over time a "powder keg" situation develops which inevitably blows up. The pagans and Jews of Medina, so the story goes, DID plot to expel Muhammad and his followers from their midst when it began to dawn on them what a menace had come among them. This sorry tale has been repeated time and again throughout history resulting in either the destruction of the Muslim community at the hands of the natives or their crushing at the hands of the Muslims.

Re: Atrocities against Muslims & FFI's Mission

PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:58 pm
by ringmaster
antineoETC wrote:It's like this: whereever populations of Muslims settle the native non-Muslim population finds themselves subject to patterns of behavior that they find threatening and frightening. Over time a "powder keg" situation develops which inevitably blows up. The pagans and Jews of Medina, so the story goes, DID plot to expel Muhammad and his followers from their midst when it began to dawn on them what a menace had come among them. This sorry tale has been repeated time and again throughout history resulting in either the destruction of the Muslim community at the hands of the natives or their crushing at the hands of the Muslims.



Exactly.

So from the perspective of the Buddhists, it was self defence. Some people would argue with that, but I won't. Muslims have been persecuting them for centuries, and I have never walked a mile in their shoes.

Somehow I seriously doubt that AAZ has walked in their shoes either.

May allah burn in hell.