Why do Muslims have difficulties with integration?

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manfred
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Why do Muslims have difficulties with integration?

Post by manfred »

Why do some Muslims, in fact a substantial number, have serious problems in integrating in the society of countries they migrated to?

It seems that the greater the commitment to Islam, the greater also the difficulties.

The point of this thread is to collect theories, and data to be able to produce a well researched article on this issue.

Please contributes your ideas, the more the better. Then we will see if a common view emerges or at least some clear patterns.

In particular we need to show collect:

a) data that relate to this
b) what contribution Islam makes to this issue
c) the Muslim self-image
d) evaluations of responses by governments
e) answers, or possible solutions

And possibly other things I have not thought of yet. This is an idea originally from sum...

Please post your ideas, the more the better.


Thanks.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

sum
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Re: Why do Muslims have difficulties with integration?

Post by sum »

To set the ball rolling -

Koran 3:118 O ye who believe! Take not for intimates others than your own folk, who would spare no pains to ruin you; they love to hamper you. Hatred is revealed by (the utterance of) their mouths, but that which their breasts hide is greater. We have made plain for you the revelations if ye will understand.

Koran 60:4 A good example has been set for you by Abraham and those with him. They said to their people, "We disown you and the IDOLS that you worship besides GOD. We denounce you, and you will see nothing from us except animosity and hatred until you believe in GOD ALONE." (ie no Son of God - Jesus)

Koran 5.51: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

Koran 58:22 You, O Muhammad, will not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, making friendship with those who oppose Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad), even though they were their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred (people). For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with Rûh (proofs, light and true guidance) from Himself. And We will admit them to Gardens ( Paradise ) under which rivers flow, to dwell therein (forever). Allah is pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the Party of Allah. Verily, it is the Party of Allah that will be the successful.

Koran 9:28 O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean, so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year; and if you fear poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please; surely Allah is Knowing Wise.

Koran 9:29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
Last edited by sum on Sun May 19, 2013 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ringmaster
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Re: Why do Muslims have difficulties with integration?

Post by ringmaster »

Verse 9-29.
The prophet of Islam was nothing more than a common criminal.

Please tell me if this is accurate:

“I have fabricated things against God and have imputed to Him words which He has not spoken.”
~MUHAMMAD (Al-Tabari 6:111)

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manfred
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Re: Why do Muslims have difficulties with integration?

Post by manfred »

To make it easier to pull together later:
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdue

9:29
Perhaps we also needs to hear about these kind of things:

Muslims integration issues in your own country.
Reasons for Muslim migration
Muslim perceptions of their host countries
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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StrongLove
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Re: Why do Muslims have difficulties with integration?

Post by StrongLove »

The type of society that islam demands seems like a pyramid. Those who are capable of the most violence are closer to the top. Though there are many claims by muslims as to why there societies are set up this way the facts speak for them selves.

Equality is the antithesis of islam. Without some one, metaphorically or in reality, standing over muslims with a club islam would have ended centuries ago. This chain of oppression holds it's victims in place. the woman & children with the threat of violence, and men with the threat of loss of power & self identity.

I'm not sure people truly understand how powerful the threat of the loss of self identity is. There is a famous survey that concluded that more people are afraid of public speaking than they are of death. The fear of public speaking is (so I'm told) rooted in loss of self identity. This fear is also why so many young men get into fights.


Without this type of structure islam can not exist. Consciously or not muslims understand that either islam goes or equality goes but both can not exist together.
" The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men."

Winston Churchill

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Ariel
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Re: Why do Muslims have difficulties with integration?

Post by Ariel »

To my opinion Muslims should not only integrate, but assimilate. I know that will never happen, but as long as they do not assimilate, they will never be part of the country they migrate to.
The heart of the wise inclines to the right,
but the heart of the fool to the left.

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Ozes
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Re: Why do Muslims have difficulties with integration?

Post by Ozes »

The opinion polls tell a lot about Muslim attitudes.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages ... -Polls.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are many polls who do not make it too this list, especially if they are not in English. If you have some in german, french(etc), please provide them to us here

We all know some crime statistics such as the oslo-Norway, sweden, Denmark, Italian, rapewaves. This can contribute to the discussion.
~A God of mercy
Would never... inform His people war is simply a means of testing ones faith
Surah's:3:140, 3:142,3:166, 3:167, 9:16, 47:4

~.. shame compassion with the victims
Surah's:3:154, 8:17

~.. mock pacifism :
Surah's: 3:167, 47:20

~..disavow peaceful solutions:
Surah:3:156

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Ozes
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Re: Why do Muslims have difficulties with integration?

Post by Ozes »

Some ideas

-Statements, lawsuits, and other signs of a defiance of the national culture by organizations representing Muslims or immigrants from muslim countries
-Statistics on crime
-Statistics on welfare abuse
-Statistics & statements from healthcare providers & social programs; It is commonly known Arab youth in this country require a lot of meds for psychological issues.
~A God of mercy
Would never... inform His people war is simply a means of testing ones faith
Surah's:3:140, 3:142,3:166, 3:167, 9:16, 47:4

~.. shame compassion with the victims
Surah's:3:154, 8:17

~.. mock pacifism :
Surah's: 3:167, 47:20

~..disavow peaceful solutions:
Surah:3:156

sum
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Re: Why do Muslims have difficulties with integration?

Post by sum »

A bit more -

Dawud 41:4814
Narrated AbuSa’id al-Khudri:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Associate only with a believer and let only a God-fearing man eat your meals.

Sahih Muslim Book 026, Number 5389:
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Do not greet the Jews and the Christians before they greet you and when you meet any one of them on the roads force him to go to the narrowest part of it.

Bukari Volume 4, Book 56, Number 668:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "The Jews and the Christians do not dye (their grey hair), so you shall do the opposite of what they do (i.e. dye your grey hair and beards)."

Ibn `Umar relates from the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) that he said: "Do otherwise than those who ascribe partners to Allah (al-mushrikin): leave beards be, and trim mustaches."

“Whoever believes in Allaah and the Last Day, let him not sit at a table where wine is being served.” (Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, al-Adab, 2725;

The Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) said: "A person is upon the religion of his friend, so you have to choose whom you befriend." (Reported by Abu Dawud and, Al Thirmidhi and others.)

Koran 60:1 Not to be loyal to them or love them: Allah says: "O you who believe! Take not My enemies and your enemies (i.e. disbelievers and polytheists, etc.) as friends, showing affection towards them, while they have disbelieved in what has come to you of the truth (i.e. Islamic Monotheism, this Qur'an, and Muhammad - SAW)"

sum

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Re: Why do Muslims have difficulties with integration?

Post by sum »

Another one -

Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever imitates a people is one of them.” (Narrated by Abu Dawood, 4031; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Irwa' al-Ghaleel, 5/109).

sum

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manfred
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Re: Why do Muslims have difficulties with integration?

Post by manfred »

I am still waiting for the obvious wise-crack that they should not study maths if they can't do basic calculus...


But joking apart, we are getting some good information together.

We still need some descriptions and data about how Muslim choose to live in their new home countries, so that we can relate what they actually do to the teaching of Islam.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

frankie
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Re: Why do Muslims have difficulties with integration?

Post by frankie »

I can throw in an observation.

Muslims will never be seen at any Concerts,raves or Charity functions (in Britain),presumably to do so would break one of the most basic of Islamic teachings,i.e.to become less Islamic by joining in with Western ideals,equating to "Kuffar"

Eurovision,
Children In Need
Comic Relief
Race for Life (Cancer & Heart dicease charities)
Glastonbury, and the like

You can probably think of many more.

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manfred
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Re: Why do Muslims have difficulties with integration?

Post by manfred »

Maybe this belongs here too...

The number of REPORTED rapes per 100,000 inhabitants in 2010, the ten highest figures for European nations are as follows:
  1. Sweden 63.5
  2. United Kingdom 28.8
  3. Belgium 27.9
  4. Norway 19.2
  5. Finland 15.2
  6. Ireland 10.7
  7. Austria 10.4
  8. Germany 9.4
  9. Netherlands 9.2
  10. Switzerland 7.1
France reported 16.2 in 2009, but did not publish the figures after that. Why not? Similarly, Italy reported 17.0 in 2009, but nothing since.

Greece only had 1.9 rapes per 100,000 inhabitants in 2010, so why is a woman 30 times more likely to get raped in Sweden than in Greece?
Why would the figure for Sweden be almost nine times higher than Switzerland?

It seems that the percentage of Muslim population in a country is statistically positively related to to the frequency of rapes occurring.

This is also something telling us about integration...
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

sum
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Re: Why do Muslims have difficulties with integration?

Post by sum »

I think that the first step is to collect the Koranic and ahadith quotes that determine muslim inability to integrate. Having collected those then examples of lack of muslim integration should follow.

sum

ringmaster
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Re: Why do Muslims have difficulties with integration?

Post by ringmaster »

sum wrote:I think that the first step is to collect the Koranic and ahadith quotes that determine muslim inability to integrate. Having collected those then examples of lack of muslim integration should follow.

sum
It is not so much that they lack they innate ability. It's that they are scripturally prohibited from integrating.

Examples of where they have not integrated successfully? You would have to name every place on the planet where muslims have moved into non-muslim areas. How much time do you have?
The prophet of Islam was nothing more than a common criminal.

Please tell me if this is accurate:

“I have fabricated things against God and have imputed to Him words which He has not spoken.”
~MUHAMMAD (Al-Tabari 6:111)

sum
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Re: Why do Muslims have difficulties with integration?

Post by sum »

Sheikh Manna` K. Al-Qubtan, professor of Higher studies at the School of Islamic Law in Riyadh, indicates that:

Basically, the command of non-Muslims over Muslims in not admissible, because God Almighty said: 'Allah will not give access to the infidels (i.e. Christians) to have authority over believers (Muslims) {Qur'an 4:141}. For God - Glory be to Him - has elevated Muslims to the highest rank (over all men) and foreordained to them the might, by virtue of the Qur`anic text in which God the Almighty said: 'Might and strength be to Allah, the Prophet (Muhammad) and the believers (Muslims) {Qur'an 63:8}.

Thus, the authority of non-Muslim over a Muslim is incompatible with these two verses, since the Muslim has to submit to and obey whoever is in charge over him. The Muslim, therefore becomes inferior to him, and this should not be the case with the Muslim.

Is this one reason why so many muslims are self employed or employed by other muslims?

Edit
The above was in relation to a muslim asking if he was allowed to employ a Christian in a position that would give him authority over muslims.

sum
Last edited by sum on Wed May 22, 2013 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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pr126
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Re: Why do Muslims have difficulties with integration?

Post by pr126 »

I would add Quran 3:110 to that list.

Yusuf Ali
Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors.
Islam: an idea to kill and die for.

sum
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Re: Why do Muslims have difficulties with integration?

Post by sum »

Let not the believers take the disbelievers as friends instead of the believers, and whoever does that, will never be helped by Allah in any way, unless you indeed fear a danger from them. And Allah warns you against Himself, and to Allah is the final return.[Quran 3:28]

Now, let me just bring the relevant part from Ibn Kathir’s commentary on this verse.

Allah prohibited His believing servants from becoming supporters of the disbelievers, or to take them as comrades with whom they develop friendships, rather than the believers. Allah warned against such behavior when He said, And whoever does that, will never be helped by Allah in any way, meaning, whoever commits this act that Allah has prohibited, then Allah will discard him. >>>> believers are allowed to show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly. For instance, Al-Bukhari recorded that Abu Ad-Darda' said, "We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them.'' [Tafsir Ibn Kathir]

sum

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Re: Why do Muslims have difficulties with integration?

Post by sum »

As regards Islamic attitudes towards non-Muslims, this is what I have so far.

Koran

Koran 3:118 O ye who believe! Take not for intimates others than your own folk, who would spare no pains to ruin you; they love to hamper you. Hatred is revealed by (the utterance of) their mouths, but that which their breasts hide is greater. We have made plain for you the revelations if ye will understand.

Koran 60:4 A good example has been set for you by Abraham and those with him. They said to their people, "We disown you and the IDOLS that you worship besides GOD. We denounce you, and you will see nothing from us except animosity and hatred until you believe in GOD ALONE." (ie no Son of God - Jesus)

Koran 5.51: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

Koran 58:22 You, O Muhammad, will not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, making friendship with those who oppose Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad), even though they were their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred (people). For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with Rûh (proofs, light and true guidance) from Himself. And We will admit them to Gardens ( Paradise ) under which rivers flow, to dwell therein (forever). Allah is pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the Party of Allah. Verily, it is the Party of Allah that will be the successful.

Koran 9:28 O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean, so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year; and if you fear poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please; surely Allah is Knowing Wise.

Koran 9:29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

Koran 3:28 Let not the believers take the disbelievers as friends instead of the believers, and whoever does that, will never be helped by Allah in any way, unless you indeed fear a danger from them. And Allah warns you against Himself, and to Allah is the final return.

Koran 60:1 Not to be loyal to them or love them: Allah says: "O you who believe! Take not My enemies and your enemies (i.e. disbelievers and polytheists, etc.) as friends, showing affection towards them, while they have disbelieved in what has come to you of the truth (i.e. Islamic Monotheism, this Qur'an, and Muhammad - SAW)"

Koran 3:110 Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors.

Koran 98:1-8: "The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn for ever in the fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures.

Koran 8:55 For the worst beasts in the sight of Allah are those who reject Him: They will not believe.

Sheikh Manna` K. Al-Qubtan, professor of Higher studies at the School of Islamic Law in Riyadh, indicates that:

Basically, the command of non-Muslims over Muslims in not admissible, because God Almighty said: 'Allah will not give access to the infidels (i.e. Christians) to have authority over believers (Muslims) {Qur'an 4:141}.

Koran 98:1-8: "The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn for ever in the fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures."

Ahadith

Dawud 41:4814
Narrated AbuSa’id al-Khudri:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Associate only with a believer and let only a God-fearing man eat your meals.

Sahih Muslim Book 026, Number 5389:
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Do not greet the Jews and the Christians before they greet you and when you meet any one of them on the roads force him to go to the narrowest part of it.

Bukari Volume 4, Book 56, Number 668:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "The Jews and the Christians do not dye (their grey hair), so you shall do the opposite of what they do (i.e. dye your grey hair and beards)."

Ibn `Umar relates from the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) that he said: "Do otherwise than those who ascribe partners to Allah (al-mushrikin): leave beards be, and trim mustaches."

“Whoever believes in Allaah and the Last Day, let him not sit at a table where wine is being served.” (Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, al-Adab, 2725;

The Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) said: "A person is upon the religion of his friend, so you have to choose whom you befriend." (Reported by Abu Dawud and, Al Thirmidhi and others.)

Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever imitates a people is one of them.” (Narrated by Abu Dawood, 4031; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Irwa' al-Ghaleel, 5/109).

Sahîh al-Bukhârî and Sahîh Muslim -Abû Tha`labah al-Khushanî said to Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him): “We come from a land populated by the People of the Scripture. Can we eat from their dishes?”
The Prophet (peace be upon him) replied: “Do not eat from them unless you do not find anything else to eat from. In that case, wash them and eat from them.”

This shows that muslims should not be friends with non-muslims with the result that there can be no integration let alone assimilation. How can muslims befriend those that Allah hates? Muslims can only exist as a separate and parallel society.

If any more quotes come to light then they can be added to the list.

sum

antineoETC
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Re: Why do Muslims have difficulties with integration?

Post by antineoETC »

There are plenty of religous groups around the world that do not "integrate". The Amish is one notable example. Furthermore, after several centuries in North America, the Amish have (as far as I am aware) completely failed to get a "phobia" named after them. The problem with Islam, then, is not lack of "integration" per se but rather its inability - except for temporary expediency - to "live and let live".
"Prophet Muhammad...bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves" SOURCE: BBC website
"Muhammad is considered to be a perfect model" SOURCE: BBC website

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