Islam and logic

This forum is for critics of Islam to post information and questions on how to debate issues. It is not a place for the actual debate with Muslims, but a place to ask questions.
Post Reply
User avatar
manfred
Posts: 11617
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Islam and logic

Post by manfred »

When discussing Islam with Muslims sooner or later we all come across some strange and wonderful leaps of thought, and you don't know if you should laugh or cry...

Most revolve around broadening or narrowing definitions or concepts to fit in with Islamic teachings....

Here are some I saw recently....

Discussion: The story of Dhul Qarnayn are re-told versions of part of a Hellenistic collection of folk tales which are found, the so-called Alexander Romance.

Response: These texts are newer than the Qur'an, so that could not be true.
Reply: links showing the oldest versions, including one in Aristotle...

Response, but because they have been revised they cannot be a source for the Qur'an...

-------------------

Discussion: there were no coins or weights called Dirham in use in 1800BC in Egypt. Archaeological evidence for first use of a dirham.

Response: Egyptians weighed things. They traded, They paid for things. Therefore they used Dirhams.


-------------------

discussion: the barrier of gog and magog.. where is it?
response: it no longer exists
reply: as the quran says when it disappears, on that day judgement day will happen. Why are we still here?
response: "On that day" does not mean "that day"...

-------------------

Discussion: sources used by Mohammed used... text similarities etc...

Response: similarity does not mean plagiarism. Therefore biblical texts are corrupt and the Qur'an is 100% divine and accurate, because and angel dictated it. It says that in the Qur'an, and that one is 100% divine and accurate, so it must be true....


--------------------
discussion: Crucifixion was not used as a form of capital punishment in Egypt. (invention later, in Persia)

response: they used impalement. That is the same thing.


--------------------

Please add some more...
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

User avatar
Garudaman
Posts: 1266
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:39 am

Re: Islam and logic

Post by Garudaman »

its your job to prove that its illogical, as its your job to prove that islam is wrong, so stops whining/complaints & starts makes irrefutable arguments! :lotpot:

User avatar
Fernando
Posts: 4949
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:27 pm

Re: Islam and logic

Post by Fernando »

Here's another one, then:
Discussion: lots of things in the Koran can be shown to be incorrect. Evidence and references are given.
Response: You are wrong. Stop whining and prove it.
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah

frankie
Posts: 2606
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:10 pm

Re: Islam and logic

Post by frankie »

Garudaman wrote:its your job to prove that its illogical, as its your job to prove that islam is wrong, so stops whining/complaints & starts makes irrefutable arguments! :lotpot:

Garudaman:

The question of the sun setting according to Islam is not only illogical, but it is scientifically wrong, which should not be the case if the Quran were from an omniscient being.

I am proving Islam is illogical and wrong, what is your response?


Narrated Abu Dharr:
I was sitting behind the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) who was riding a donkey while the sun was setting. He asked: Do you know where this sets ? I replied: Allah and his Apostle know best. He said: It sets in a spring of warm water (Hamiyah).
Indexes
Dar-us-Salam reference Sunan Abu Dawud Hadith 4002

Ahmad Hasan translation Hadith 3991


http://quranx.com/Hadith/AbuDawud/Darus ... dith-4002/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Quran 18.86

Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness

Tafsir 18.86
Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs

Till, when he reached the setting place of the sun) where the sun sets, (he found it setting in a muddy spring) a blackened, muddy and stinking spring; it is also said that this means: a hot spring, (and found a people thereabout) these people were disbelievers: (We said: O Dhu'l-Qarnayn!) We inspired him (Either punish) either kill them until they accept to believe that there is no deity except Allah (or show them kindness) or you pardon them and let them be.

frankie
Posts: 2606
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:10 pm

Re: Islam and logic

Post by frankie »

Garudaman

Are you going to answer my question, or are you like your co religionist Eagle, running as "fast as your legs will carry you" away from such questions put to you?


User avatar
manfred
Posts: 11617
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Re: Islam and logic

Post by manfred »

Another one:

Jesus is the "Messiah" according to the QUr'an, but the "messianic age" does not start with Jesus...

Just as the Victorian age started some unspecified centuries after Queen Victoria....

and a "spirit" is a "man" , and that is the ONLY use of the word, not even a kind of bottle from which my nephew drank when he told a Russian policeman to shoot himself into the balls and die dancing... (to which he said "da" and smiled, because he did not understand English)

all courtesy of eagle...
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

sum
Posts: 6532
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:11 pm

Re: Islam and logic

Post by sum »

Hello Garudaman

Are these people wrong with regard to the setting of the sun?

_
Welcome to the Quranic Arabic Corpus, an annotated linguistic resource for the Holy Quran. This page shows seven parallel translations in English for the 86th verse of chapter 18 (sūrat l-kahf). Click on the Arabic text to below to see word by word details of the verse's morphology.

Go

Chapter (18) sūrat l-kahf (The Cave)

Sahih International: Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it [as if] setting in a spring of dark mud, and he found near it a people. Allah said, "O Dhul-Qarnayn, either you punish [them] or else adopt among them [a way of] goodness."

Pickthall: Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness.

Yusuf Ali: Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness."

Shakir: Until when he reached the place where the sun set, he found it going down into a black sea, and found by it a people. We said: O Zulqarnain! either give them a chastisement or do them a benefit.

Muhammad Sarwar: to the West where he found the sun setting into a warm source (spring) of water and a people living near by. We asked him, "Dhu 'l-Qarnayn, you may punish them or treat them with kindness?"

Mohsin Khan: Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water. And he found near it a people. We (Allah) said (by inspiration): "O Dhul-Qarnain! Either you punish them, or treat them with kindness."

Arberry: until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and he found nearby a people. We said, 'O Dhool Karnain, either thou shalt chastise them, or thou shalt take towards them a way of kindness.'

It is interesting that the two words "as if" were added by later muslims who realised that the standard translations revealed a serious fault with the Koran which raised unquestionable doubts about its truthfulness and from a god. So what did they do? Instead of accepting the gross error they altered the Koran to try and preserve the Koran`s credibility. Too late. The dishonest addition of "as if" to "Allah's" words only compounds the problem for muslims. The Koran says that no-one can change its words and so the translations by the muslims, as above, should still stand.

Garudaman, please give quotes from the Koran and ahadith to support your claim. So far you have provided your own unsubstantiated view.

sum

Post Reply