God, Free Will & Contingency

[AbdulRahman]

Hey, man of faith on supernatural stuff, where have you been?
Deepak Chopra was looking for you.
Maharashi University wanted to give you an honorary degree.

moderator edit: snip...

Dell Mello and Deepak Chopra are not too far apart. Mello is just little bit better than Chopra.

moderator edit: snip...

[Muhammad bin Lyin]

See how the vulgar stares at the finger...

I want to add this, so that this cretin understands what you just said. "The sage points at the moon, and all the idiot sees is the finger". And, of course, he argues about the finger with the utmost confidence, never seeing what the finger is really doing. He can't. He's handicapped. He has no idea that it's not about the finger.

Well,, I did not know that Cat's middle finger was coming out of
moderator edit: snip.... It sting.

Last I checked, EVERYBODY thought you were a laughingstock, but maybe that's wrong. I haven't kept in touch with this thread because it's just the same old thing. You have already been told and have shown to not understand it. Period, as you like to say.

[AbdulRahman]

Dummy Muslims thought you ran away and gave me another raise.
Please don't tell them your brain is beyond repair otherwise they might take my raise back.

And you still perpetrate the lie. So, are you really Ahmed Bahgat?? That seems like his style of grandiose and persistent lying. I can't believe you are 53. Only a little teenage boy would create a lie like this, and most of them wouldn't persist as you have. Wow, that's really bad, wouldn't you say?

Well, 53 or 35 or 5, what does it matter. When non-material thought, consciousness, free will can exert physical force on matter then anything is possible, 53 = 35 = 5 = 3.
moderator edit: snip...It is Quantum mechanics' Observer Created Rality, right? Therefore, in the observer's world you are a stupid, idiot, lobotomized brain from the 7th century, mother of all irrational person.

[AbdulRahman]

See how the vulgar stares at the finger...

I want to add this, so that this cretin understands what you just said. "The sage points at the moon, and all the idiot sees is the finger". And, of course, he argues about the finger with the utmost confidence, never seeing what the finger is really doing. He can't. He's handicapped. He has no idea that it's not about the finger.

Well,, I did not know that Cat's middle finger was coming out of
moderator edit: snip.... It sting.

Last I checked, EVERYBODY thought you were a laughingstock, but maybe that's wrong. I haven't kept in touch with this thread because it's just the same old thing. You have already been told and have shown to not understand it. Period, as you like to say.

In case you forgot, EVERYBODY doesn't mean anything in the world of QM, observer created reality, where non-matter thought, consciousness, free will can exert force on physical object that lift your hand to pick up a cup of coffee or tea.
So, using your logic,
moderator edit: snip..., EVERYBODY means nothing.

But yah, if you take my logic of "Qualified, 3rd Party, Double Blind, Successive Approximation, Statistical Methodology" then yah, we can talk reason, logic, science.


moderator edit: snip...

[manfred]

moderator comment
The topic is "God,free will and contingency"

It up until very recently the thead was a solid discussion, and then we get fingers in anuses and various other filth.

Can we please either talk about the topic or else, if we have nothing new to say, keep silent? Abdul, please tidy up you posts in the next hour, or I shall do it for you.

[Muhammad bin Lyin]

Hey, man of faith on supernatural stuff, where have you been?
Deepak Chopra was looking for you.
Maharashi University wanted to give you an honorary degree.

Chopra is a fraud, and you're an idiot. Pretty simple.

Dell Mello and Deepak Chopra are not too far apart. Mello is just little bit better than Chopra.

Name the presumptuous mistake he made. Name one, and I'll explain it. Chopra makes tons, as does even Osho, but Chopra is far more the fraud.

You bought everything the idiot Mello said. You even parrot exact wording of his.

No I didn't buy everything he said, and he even, as opposed to others, expressly tells you not to simply believe what he says, whereas Chopra, Osho, and even Eckhardt Tolle do not say that. So there is an entirely different level of integrity separating DeMello, and perhaps Jiddu Krishnamurti from others. I just recently read "The Power of Now" rather than reading excerpts, and this guy clearly takes from DeMello, but does not understand that you cannot merely make a claim and have people buy into it, you have to show them through examples. DeMello understood that and was clearly more masterful than perhaps anybody in this category. And, being he was a psychologist as well, he knew how to keep from conjecturing. He knew what he should come out and say or claim, and what you should say for yourself. He clearly understood the difference. That's why, while you want to think that all that he says is poppycock, when you go to identify what specifically is poppycock, it actually isn't there. There is no poppycock, it's all merely new and foreign. Your mind itself made all of the errant projections based on your past experiences, and "new" things cannot be read that way, or else this error inevitably happens.

Here's where he even mentions about not being brainwashed

Somebody came up to me with a question. What do you think the question was? He asked me, "Are you enlightened"? What do you think my answer was? What does it matter! You want a better answer? My answer would be: "How would I know? How would you know? What does it matter"? You know something? If you want anything too badly, you're in big trouble. You know something else? If I were enlightened and you listened to me because I was enlightened, then you're in big trouble.

Are you ready to be brainwashed by someone who's enlightened? You can be brainwashed by anybody, you know. What does it matter whether someone's enlightened or not? But see, we want to lean on someone, don't we? We want to lean on anybody we think has arrived. We love to hear that people have arrived. It gives us hope, doesn't it? What do you want to hope for? Isn't that another form of desire? You want to hope for something better than what you have right now, don't you? Otherwise you wouldn't be hoping. But then, you forget that you have it all right now anyway, and you don't know it. Why not concentrate on the now instead of hoping for better times in the future? Why not understand the now instead of forgetting it and hoping for the future? Isn't the future just another trap?

Some of us get woken up by the harsh realities of life. We suffer so much that we wake up. But people keep bumping again and again into life. They still go on sleepwalking. They never wake up. Tragically, it never occurs to them that there may be another way. It never occurs to them that there may be a better way. Still, if you haven't been bumped sufficiently by life, and you haven't suffered enough, then there is another way: to listen. I don't mean you have to agree with what I'm saying.

That wouldn't be listening. Believe me, it really doesn't matter whether you agree with what I'm saying or you don't. Because agreement and disagreement have to do with words and concepts and theories. They don't have anything to do with truth. Truth is never expressed in words. Truth is sighted suddenly, as a result of a certain attitude. So you could be disagreeing with me and still sight the truth. But there has to be an attitude of openness, of willingness to discover something new. That's important, not your agreeing with me or disagreeing with me. After all, most of what I'm giving you is really theories.

No theory adequately covers reality. So I can speak to you, not of the truth, but of obstacles to the truth. Those I can describe. I cannot describe the truth. No one can. All I can do is give you a description of your falsehoods, so that you can drop them. All I can do for you is challenge your beliefs and the belief system that makes you unhappy. All I can do for you is help you to unlearn. That's what learning is all about where spirituality is concerned: unlearning, unlearning almost everything you've been taught. A willingness to unlearn, to listen.

Are you listening, as most people do, in order to confirm what you already think? Observe your reactions as I talk. Frequently you'll be startled or shocked or scandalized or irritated or annoyed or frustrated. Or you'll be saying, "Great! " But are you listening for what will confirm what you already think? Or are you listening in order to discover something new? That is important. It is difficult for sleeping people. Jesus proclaimed the good news, yet he was rejected. Not because it was good, but because it was new. We hate the new. We hate it! And the sooner we face up to that fact, the better. We don't want new things, particularly when they're disturbing, particularly when they involve change. Most particularly if it involves saying, "I was wrong".

I remember meeting an eighty-seven-year-old Jesuit in Spain; he'd been my professor and rector in India thirty or forty years ago. And he attended a workshop like this. "I should have heard you speak sixty years ago", he said. "You know something. I've been wrong all my life". God, to listen to that! It's like looking at one of the wonders of the world. That, ladies and gentlemen, is faith!

An openness to the truth, no matter what the consequences, no matter where it leads you and when you don't even know where it's going to lead you. That's faith. Not belief, but faith. Your beliefs give you a lot of security, but faith is insecurity. You don't know. You're ready to follow and you're open, you're wide open! You're ready to listen. And, mind you, being open does not mean being gullible, it doesn't mean swallowing whatever the speaker is saying. Oh no.

You've got to challenge everything I'm saying. But challenge it from an attitude of openness, not from an attitude of stubbornness. And challenge it all. Recall those lovely words of Buddha when he said, "Monks and scholars must not accept my words out of respect, but must analyze them the way a goldsmith analyzes-gold by cutting, scraping, rubbing, melting". When you do that, you're listening. You've taken another major step toward awakening. The first step, as I said, was a readiness to admit that you don't want to wake up, that you don't want to be happy. There are all kinds of resistances to that within you. The second step is a readiness to understand, to listen, to challenge your whole belief system. Not just your religious beliefs, your political beliefs, your social beliefs, your psychological beliefs, but all of them. A readiness to reappraise them all, in the Buddha's metaphor. And I'll give you plenty of opportunity to do that here.

One day the Master asked, "What, in your opinion, is the most important of all religious questions"?

He got many answers:
"Does God exist"?
"Who is God"?
"What is the path to God"?
"Is there a life after death"?

"No", said the Master. "The most important question is: 'Who am I?'"

The disciples got some idea of what he was hinting at when they overheard him talking to a preacher: Master: "So then, according to you, when you die your soul will be in heaven"?

Preacher: "Yes".

Master: "And your body will be in the grave"?

Preacher: "Yes".

Master: "And where, may I ask, will you be"?

You don't have any of your own thingking.
MBL is a stupid ass.

And you just displayed yourself as a stupid little stubborn child. Thank you.

[Muhammad bin Lyin]

Dummy Muslims thought you ran away and gave me another raise.
Please don't tell them your brain is beyond repair otherwise they might take my raise back.

And you still perpetrate the lie. So, are you really Ahmed Bahgat?? That seems like his style of grandiose and persistent lying. I can't believe you are 53. Only a little teenage boy would create a lie like this, and most of them wouldn't persist as you have. Wow, that's really bad, wouldn't you say?

Well, 53 or 35 or 5, what does it matter. When non-material thought, consciousness, free will can exert physical force on matter then anything is possible, 53 = 35 = 5 = 3. MBL = Ass = Hindu idiot.
It is Quantum mechanics' Observer Created Rality, right? Therefore, in the observer's world you are a stupid, idiot, lobotomized brain from the 7th century, mother of all irrational person.

I just can't believe that you are 53, but resort to childish things like inventing Sheiks, Christians and Jews that pay you. Why would you ever think of doing something like that? Honestly, where I come from, that's very bizarre behavior for someone who is supposed to have so much life experience (an adult). And after all, is it really that important what we think anyway, for you to go to the lengths to invent this?? Think about it.

[Muhammad bin Lyin]

Oh, and BTW, i do not believe that the observer creates reality, at most, it can be said that the observer decides what it is. But the correct word is stimulus. Stimulus exists independent of the observer, but never has an effect (reaction) until there is an observer. To say that stimulus cannot exist without a reaction to it is in my opinion, nonsense. It simply means nothing without a reaction, that's all, but it still exists. "Meaningless existence" is possible. After all, just look at what you think about your own life.

[manfred]

moderator comment: abdul you should feel ashamed to make an old and sick man clear up your dirty language. Any more, and I shall ban you for a week or so.

[yeezevee]

moderator comment: abdul you should feel ashamed to make an old and sick man clear up your dirty language. Any more, and I shall ban you for a week or so.

why waste time cleaning up? just dump it in garbage bin... or make such posts as an example for Brainless bums who when cornered they resort to personal insults..

[Fathom]

moderator comment: abdul you should feel ashamed to make an old and sick man clear up your dirty language. Any more, and I shall ban you for a week or so.

I have a couple of spare rocking chairs if you need one.

[The Cat]

moderator comment: abdul you should feel ashamed to make an old and sick man clear up your dirty language. Any more, and I shall ban you for a week or so.

May 2006. The more it changes...
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewt ... 848#408848" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

abdul2006,

Finding and moving multiple copies of your threads to the Garbag Can is too time consuming and tedious for me.
It puts me in a bad mood. It is much easier to ban someone and keep my good humour.

So let this be a warning.

Best Wishes,
M.

[The Cat]

AR to mbl (right before AR blasted him over for disagreeing)
viewtopic.php?p=114032#p114032" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Development of human languages before the development of 21st century science is the problem. All verbs in the dictionary implies free Will.
Other than that, you are now in the right direction. You will get there.

Let's expurgate all the verbs in dictionaries. And all the immaterial 'objects' found in sentences too, not forgiving that no immaterial thought could be the 'subject' of any faithful reality! All sentences would then read: ''the... (BAN subject) of this... (BAN object) would... (BAN verb)

Obviously the right direction! :lol1:

[AbdulRahman]

To the stealth people of faith at FFI:

Faith Freedom International is infested with people of Faith on Hinduism, Free Will, Buddhism and Christianity. Each one hoping to bring Ex-Muslims to their camp. I say become a Free Thinker.
These folks are ignorant of neuroscience and logic.
Read Sam Harris upcoming book on these topics if you want to evolve beyond primitive religion like Hinduism and Buddhism.

I say become a Free Thinker.
Apply only reason, logic, science. This in effect covers everything under the Sun. Hear it loud and clear, we will not accept any of your faithful nonsense without scientific inquiry, reasoning, logic, questioning.

moderator:snip... Cat doesn't want to talk about his faith on reincarnation.
MBL dumb ass doesn't want to bring up his faith on at least some aspects of Buddhism.
Several dirty Hindus are at FFI these days.

Buddha was probably one of the smarter person of his time but from today's standard he was a dumb ass.
Although Buddhism is one of the better religion but it has its own stupidity, started right from Buddha. Buddha believed and preached Karma and reincarnation - height of stupidity.
moderator:snip... ]Exposing stupidity of Buddhism:
http://enjoymentland.com/2009/03/15/my- ... le-truths/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Meditation has some limited value such as calming oneself down, temporarily lowering one's blood pressure etc.
But it doesn't enhances wisdom, understanding about the world we live in, nor increases your IQ, nor increases the logical connections in your brain. To have better understanding of life and the real world one has to read, debate, lab experiments, do mathematics, reason, apply logic, and intense thinking. Meditation doesn't get you there.

The Cat's OCR (Observer created reality) is not a reality at all. Nor MBL's illusion on Free Will gives him or anyone any free will - this includes De Mello and Buddha.

These people of various faith are too quick to criticise Islam but don't wan't take a peek into their own faith. These are half-baked, baby atheist like. FFI is now infested with fraudulent, deceptive people who initially portray themselves as free thinker but they are in fact, stealth believers.


Read this and evolve your mind
http://www.samharris.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Is Buddhism a religion.
http://fora.tv/2010/03/19/Stephen_Batch ... ullprogram" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Debunking Buddhism. [No mention of Hinduism because Hinduism is one of the most primitive and stupid religion of all.]
http://www.theabsolute.net/tv/?p=380" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Buddhists-94 ... ment-1.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://brainmeta.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=18467" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum ... cepts/4069" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


]How Science Can Determine Moral Landscape By Sam Harris

Sam Harris breathes intellectual fire into an ancient debate. Reading this thrilling, audacious book, you feel the ground shifting beneath your feet. Reason has never had a more passionate advocat.
— Ian McEwan, author of Atonement, winner of the Man Booker Prize for Amsterdam.

A lively, provocative, and timely new look at one of the deepest problems in the world of ideas. Harris makes a powerful case for a morality that is based on human flourishing and thoroughly enmeshed with science and rationality. It is a tremendously appealing vision, and one that no thinking person can afford to ignore.
—[Steven Pinker, Professor of Psychology at Harvard University, author of How the Mind Works and The Blank Slate.

I was one of those who had unthinkingly bought into the hectoring myth that science can say nothing about morals. The Moral Landscape has changed all that for me. Moral philosophers, too, will find their world exhilaratingly turned upside down, as they discover a need to learn some neuroscience. As for religion, and the preposterous idea that we need God to be good, nobody wields a sharper bayonet than Sam Harris.
—Richard Dawkin, author of The Selfish Gene, The God Delusion, and The Greatest Show On Earth

A hallelujah to Sam Harris for boldly going where few have dared go. The Moral Landscape demonstrates that clarity of reason is our most glorious weapon and that even age old debates that have gone into hibernation ought to be awakened and challenged.
— Marc Hauser, Professor of Psychology and Human Evolutionary Biology at Harvard University, author of Moral Minds.

Reading Sam Harris is like drinking water from a cool stream on a hot day. He has the rare ability to frame arguments that are not only stimulating, they are downright nourishing, even if you don’t always agree with him! In this new book he argues from a philosophical and a neurobiological perspective that science can and should determine morality. As was the case with Harris’ previous books, readers are bound to come away with previously firm convictions about the world challenged, and a vital new awareness about the nature and value of science and reason in our lives.
—Lawrence M. Kraus, theoretical physicist, Director of the Origins Project at Arizona State University, author of The Physics of Star Trek and Quantum Man: Richard Feynman’s Life in Science.



From the Free Press:

Sam Harris’s first book, The End of Faith, ignited a worldwide debate about the validity of religion. In the aftermath, Harris discovered that most people—from religious fundamentalists to non-believing scientists—agree on one point: Science has nothing to say on the subject of human values. Indeed, our failure to address questions of meaning and morality through science has now become the most common justification for religious faith. It is also the primary reason why so many secularists and religious moderates feel obligated to “respect” the hardened superstitions of their more devout neighbors.

In this explosive new book, Sam Harris tears down the wall between scientific facts and human values, arguing that most people are simply mistaken about the relationship between morality and the rest of human knowledge. Harris urges us to think about morality in terms of human and animal well-being, viewing the experiences of conscious creatures as peaks and valleys on a “moral landscape.” Because there are definite facts to be known about where we fall on this landscape, Harris foresees a time when science will no longer limit itself to merely describing what people do in the name of “morality”; in principle, science should be able to tell us what we ought to do to live the best lives possible.

Bringing a fresh perspective to age-old questions of right and wrong, and good and evil, Harris demonstrates that we already know enough about the human brain and its relationship to events in the world to say that there are right and wrong answers to the most pressing questions of human life. Because such answers exist, moral relativism is simply false—and comes at increasing cost to humanity. And the intrusions of religion into the sphere of human values can be finally repelled: for just as there is no such thing as Christian physics or Muslim algebra, there can be no Christian or Muslim morality.

Using his expertise in philosophy and neuroscience, along with his experience on the front lines of our “culture wars,” Harris delivers a game-changing book about the future of science and about the real basis of human cooperation.



Sara says:
June 28th, 2010 at 1:37 am

I really appreciate this article. I used to think Buddhism was different from religion, and ‘just a philosophy’ and a positive one, until my best friend got sucked into a Buddhist cult that derailed his career right after getting his PHD. Then I started studying it, and decided to take the plunge and actually try to practice it. Then I realized it was just more supernatural magic baloney. Not to mention misogynistic, nihilistic, and soul-destroying. Buddhists are obscurantists who make claims to knowledge they can’t back up rationally. When you call them on their irrationality, they start to question the validity of enlightenment values. It’s seriously damaging woo, like every other religion.

[manfred]

Abdul, as previously pointed out,any more personal abuse will result in a ban. I have also told you that you can use any colour other than red. Obviously your manners are severely lacking, and you need some time to work on that.You have a week'sholiday from this forum, as from now.

[Muhammad bin Lyin]

The Cat's OCR (Observer created reality) is not a reality at all. Nor MBL's illusion on Free Will gives him or anyone any free will - this includes De Mello and Buddha.

You simply have no idea what you are talking about and you arbitrarily flap at the mouth all over the place as though you do. It's really nothing but an annoyance at this point. You're frustrated, so you just start flapping at the mouth and pulling any poo you can think of out of your pocket and throw it against the wall in hopes that some of it sticks. That's all you're doing at this point and it's very obvious for all to see. You get a couple of pieces of scientific information but without any solid philosophical and/or reasoning skills, you don't even know what to do with the info you have. There's a reason why literature, philosophy and even psychology are taught in western education systems. And if someone introduces an angle you have yet to think of, you show that you are incapable of considering it properly and merely try to MAKE it wrong anyway you can, while you never heard a single word it was really saying.

These people of various faith are too quick to criticise Islam but don't wan't take a peek into their own faith.

I know what I believe and I don't have a single problem with it. As I told you before, sorry, but you will not have your revenge. The whole plan is a failure. You are not particularly bright and got fed a lot of new things you never considered, and you showed, convincingly, that you are simply incapable of grasping them. And this frustrates you and causes the angry little baby behavior that we have all seen from you. And I'm not the only one who thinks this, believe me. So sorry, but there will be no revenge, only laughter. You've made a laughing stock of yourself here, and you don't even have the faintest idea of this. You have no idea that people view you as merely a stubborn, frustrated, angry little baby. Now THAT'S a failure.

[Muhammad bin Lyin]

MBL,
I have said earlier, I will back you (MBL) up in your conclusion that “We always act on our best self-interest”.
Although “Self-interest” is poor choice of words when talking about Free Will

What is the right choice of words??

“Self-interest” is a very high level term.

What exactly do you mean by "high level"?

“High-Level” language is the one used looking from a distance, without going deeper, superfluous. High-level language works fine for everyday life when deeper thought, deep probing is not necessary. But if you want to think deeper, putting things under the microscope, drilling down then “high-level” language is not sufficient. Then you need low level language.
Fathom fails in high level and low level, both. You are at least doing fine with high-level terms – except making Buddha exception. In your mind Buddha was able to break the rule, laws of nature.

MBL wrote: “We always act on our best self-interest”.
Your above sentence implies there is no exception but you made Buddha an exception. So, I ask you to make up your mind first.

Yes, I should have said "almost always" but it's so rare that it might as well be always. Would you just read something and really ponder it for a change??

http://www.carnatic.com/karmasaya/index ... %20Charity" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You'll see exactly what I'm talking about, but you really don't want to see that. You really don't, no matter how much you lie to yourself and tell yourself that you do. Tell me, EXACTLY what is incorrect about what this man says. Exactly. And then after reading it, tell me that you still do not understand what I'm saying. For sh!t's sake, can't you read between the lines in even the slightest way?? You are so handicapped when it comes to this. You really do think like a black and white machine that has no gray. Now just think. Ponder. Relax. Concentrate. It's really not that difficult.

[charleslemartel]

It would be interesting to see what Abdul comes up with for debunking De Mello. When and if he returns, let us start a new thread and discuss the book "Awareness" by De Mello with him. I have bought the book, and am reading it now.

[Muhammad bin Lyin]

It would be interesting to see what Abdul comes up with for debunking De Mello. When and if he returns, let us start a new thread and discuss the book "Awareness" by De Mello with him. I have bought the book, and am reading it now.

People like him always say it's all nonsense, almost like a knee jerk reaction. But when you ask them to explain exactly or specifically why it's all nonsense, or which specific part was nonsense, they don't tell you. They say "it just is" and then get standoffish. Seen it a million times.

Are you listening, as most people do, in order to confirm what you already think? Observe your reactions as I talk. Frequently you'll be startled or shocked or scandalized or irritated or annoyed or frustrated. Or you'll be saying, "Great! " But are you listening for what will confirm what you already think? Or are you listening in order to discover something new? That is important. It is difficult for sleeping people.

The great masters tell us that the most important question in the world is: "Who am I"? Or rather: "What is 'I'"? What is this thing I call "I"? What is this thing I call self? You mean you understood everything else in the world and you didn't understand this? You mean you understood astronomy and black holes and quasars and you picked up computer science, and you don't know who you are? My, you are still asleep. You are a sleeping scientist. You mean you understood what Jesus Christ is and you don't know who you are? How do you know that you have understood Jesus Christ? Who is the person doing the understanding? Find that out first. That's the foundation of everything, isn't it? It's because we haven't understood this that we've got all these stupid religious people involved in all these stupid religious wars -- Muslims fighting against Jews, Protestants fighting Catholics, and all the rest of that rubbish. They don't know who they are, because if they did, there wouldn't be wars.

[BBG]

The great masters tell us that the most important question in the world is: "Who am I"? Or rather: "What is 'I'"? What is this thing I call "I"? What is this thing I call self? You mean you understood everything else in the world and you didn't understand this? You mean you understood astronomy and black holes and quasars and you picked up computer science, and you don't know who you are? My, you are still asleep. You are a sleeping scientist. You mean you understood what Jesus Christ is and you don't know who you are? How do you know that you have understood Jesus Christ? Who is the person doing the understanding? Find that out first. That's the foundation of everything, isn't it? It's because we haven't understood this that we've got all these stupid religious people involved in all these stupid religious wars -- Muslims fighting against Jews, Protestants fighting Catholics, and all the rest of that rubbish. They don't know who they are, because if they did, there wouldn't be wars.

"Who am I"? or "What is I"? As far as i have understood the quotes from various mystics given here by you, charles and the Cat, i think they are pointing towards consciousness as the real "I" and that every one's real self or nature is same pure consciousness, so there is no difference between people, between muslims and jews and muslims and christians and so on. When all people will realise that their real self or nature is same, there will be no differences, no fights, no wars.

If i am right, i think on that Abdul's position too was somewhat similar, the difference was that his view was that everyone's real self or nature is matter. And from as much as i know, i think those who consider consciousness to be the only true reality also lead to no free will position and Abdul form his view that matter is the only true reality was also leading to no free will position.

And i think debate here for last some pages was concentrated mainly on that point with both sides, with the exception of charles, holding on to their respective positions.