Fathom wrote:AbdulRahman wrote:Sun revolves around the Earth was not an invention of any religion either. It was a natural state as you described it. People just saw the Sun rising from the East and setting at the West over their head, everyday, so they believed it. To really find out the truth one had to go outside the obvious feelings or what their eyes were literally seeing above. Only then we discovered Earth revolves around the sun. Can you imagine what kind of cognitive dissonance those day's people had to fight? Same is happening to your mind now. Your intuitive feeling is Free Will exist. You have to go beyond your feeling, intuition. Be objective. It is not easy, I know.
I have no doubt that you are telling me what you feel. However, I am asking you to go beyond your feeling. Apply objective reasoning, logic, and science. The conclusion of No Free Will will be 180 degrees opposite to your deepest belief. I know that.
Perhaps you need to have a better understanding my position on all this. Allow me to state my position numerically.
1. It does not matter to me whether Free Will or Determinism is the truth. One is as good as the other.
2. I can be convinced that one is more truthful than the other.
3. Currently, the evidence appears to favor the argument for Free Will.
4. Your argument requires an "initial condition," and in that I agree. However, you believe the "initial condition" to be the Big Bang. But I view the Big Bang as the effect, and not the cause as you do. Your position would work if an initial condition that caused the Big Bang could be identified, and a good argument that that initial condition was in fact the origin of all existence.
You see, you believe there was a beginning, much like the religionists do. Even the bible begins with the words, "In the beginning ..." But I have never been shown any evidence that existence ever had a beginning in the first place. Because of that, I have no reason to accept an initial condition.
You could win my support if you can demonstrate with evidence, reason, and rationality, that existence did in fact have a beginning. Currently, my position is existence simply always just was, and never began, and was never created. It just changes shapes and forms infinitely.
It is my position that it is mathematically impossible for existence to have ever had a beginning.
Fathom wrote:Currently, the evidence appears to favor the argument for Free Will.
False.
1. That is what we are debating. I am saying currently, and for the last many decades not only the evidance but also the logic is overshelmingly for No Free Will. I know you are on the opposite side.
Fathom wrote: Your argument requires an "initial condition," and in that I agree.
False
2. Logical conclusion that there is no free will is indpendent of the initial condition - the Big-bang that brought up. I know you are on the opposite side.
Can we agree on our these 2 disagreements?