MBL wrote:You can decide to react in the most likely way that meets your perceived self interest and that would be the expected, deterministic reaction. But, someone can decide to not serve their self interest, and that would break the last link on the deterministic chain right at it's most important part, the human reaction. Although the latter seems odd, I don't think it's impossible. When people stop perceiving themselves and their needs as the centre of the universe and instead perceive themselves as a satellite, then it could be possible.
You still left door for the confusion open.
Would you write in the ambiguous language as above if I had asked you about the existence of ghost instead of Free Will?
It's only ambiguous to you because you appear to be not very well educated and have a narrow, mechanical, black and white mind. Free will is a question about Cause. Ghosts are not. The two are not related questions.
i am not an atheist
Then what are you? Deist? Zombie? or Believe in witchcraft?
I am a human being. I no longer attach labels to myself. Do I have to have a label in order to suit your narrow, mechanical perception?
Philosophy is the usage of reason. Philosophy created math and science.
Then apply reason, logic and science. Don't bring up Santa Clause. Don't imply ghost in the brain.
I didn't. YOU keep bringing that up because you THINK this is what I mean. But the truth be known, is that you have no idea what I'm talking about. It all flies over your heard. so perhaps your Quranic past has stifled your past education and you need to make up for that. Go read some Descarte of Kent. Or maybe some Emerson. Interesting stiff. ((winkee winkee)). It helps one develop a stronger and sharper sense of reasoning. Scientific knowledge, in of itself, will do very little for you unless you know how to apply it. All you have is some
information, and even some of that has been shown to be a misunderstanding on your part.
you still failed to state that "There is no Free Will whatsoever. Period."
And I probably never will as I see no period to it whatsoever. You merely keep repeating "period" because you can't refute my added considerations directly, because you never thought of those before, so you got caught off guard and now you merely resort to continually repeating the same, non fully substantiated claim over and over again. That's frustration and stubbornness. That's also a troll. You really think it's impossible that you might not have thought of a few additional considerations to the question and were certain that you had it all down. And now, you merely jump up and down and repeat the same thing in response. Either you are exceedingly stupid and can't grasp what I say, or you don't WANT to grasp what I say. I'm not sure which it is.
And now you are telling me that a reflex in your knee has to do with the subconscious mind?
Knee jerk reaction is of even lower level than subconscious mind.
But both are mechanical responses, right?? Otherwise, there would be a "ghost in the machine", as you like to say, right? Right? If our conscious responses are mechanical and Deterministic, then our subconscious responses are as well, right? right? So who cares what level, they are all mechanical, knee jerk reactions, right? The process of computing is a mechanical, knee jerk reaction. So you make your ideas work by cheating, and cheating on yourself. i suppose that next you will say that there are scientific degrees of determinism
Being able to ride bicycle without conscious effort is using subconscious mind.
Brain signaling heart to beat is lower than that of knee jerk reaction.
By lower, what do you mean? More or less mechanical?? More or less Deterministic?? That's what we are discussing, isn't it?
How do you know that? Let's see your source.
Source: Neuropsychology 101. Take a course on that.
Link it or throw it out. Simple.
The computing is a reflex of the stimulus, right?
Computing in the broadest sense as electron repel other electron, or Gravity pull objects together. Or transistor switch makes logic gates. Many logic gates makes CPU. All object and particles are interacting using strict laws of nature. That's what I meant by computing - in the given context.
Those are all reflexive actions rather than any decision being involved, right?
Ah, ha, so you do have theistic mind after all.
MBL wrote:I haven't even given up God
Ah, ha, so you are one of those moron who doesn't go to church anymore. You found new age mumbo jumbo religion.
No, I don't like that either. My feeling is, "be your own prophet"
Abdul wrote:No. No Budha, no Mohammad, No Jesus, No one in the entire universe, no body, had ever had or have any free will of any sort, ever. Can you say that?
Sure, when you prove it. But you don't. And when there is something you haven't considered that gets brought up, you get angry and stamp up and down and say no, no, no. But that doesn't mean anything. You have to properly prove or substantiate your objection, and so far, you haven't. You've only shown that you have applied limited reasoning to the problem
I am talking about only as certain as gravity pulls objects.
Can you be that much certain?
We both alread have agreed that nothing is 100% guaranteed.
Then lose the annoying word "period", because there is no such thing as a final "period" as even just admitted by you.
I never said free will necessarily exists and have merely said the conditions that must exist for free will to be able to exist. In order for free will to be able to exist, XYZ cionditions would have to be met.
That's why I called you baby, half-baked, immature, couldn't overcome your own cognitive dissonance yet. Haven given up on God yet.
That's not an answer. That's a stupid rant. As I said before, seems like you can take the Muslim out of Islam, but you can't take the Islam out of the Muslim.
Remnants of twisted, and overly simplified reasoning and ignorant stubbornness remain. I guess that will take a long time. Try some Plato or Aristotle. Commonly, people in the Middle East don't get things like this in their schools because it is a philosophy that does not come from the Quran. So when it comes to really hard core reasoning and logic postulates and the like, people of the middle east seem to have a much harder time with stuff like this than people of the west. And what's to blame for that?? Once again, it's Islam. It holds their education system back.
Learning science isn't going to teach you how to reason properly.