God, Free Will & Contingency

Does God exist? Is Allah God? Creation vs. evolution.
Is Religion needed? Logic vs. faith. Morality and ethics.
AbdulRahman
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Re: God, Free Will & Contingency

Post by AbdulRahman »

Mark Hallett wrote:The unease people feel at the potential unreality of free will, said National Institutes of Health neuroscientist Mark Hallett, originates in a misconception of self as separate from the brain.

"That's the same notion as the mind being separate from the body -- and I don't think anyone really believes that," said Hallett. "A different way of thinking about it is that your consciousness is only aware of some of the things your brain is doing."

Hallett doubts that free will exists as a separate, independent force.
Read More http://www.wired.com/science/discoverie ... z0p1H0VB8R" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This one will shake you up. Read at its entirety.
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/ ... e-will-an/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joanVUoX ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... mmed-brain" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Faith on supernatural comes in many forms: alien abduction, soul, god, ghost, angel, free will, life after death, mysticism, witchcraft, jesus, allah, Mohammad, or even 9/11 was an insider job, man never landed on the moon, psychic, astrology.

These are the result of malfunctioned brain. Bad neural connectivity, compartmentalized data in the brain, incoherency, inconsistancy. Basically, it is a weak and partially damaged brain that needs hidden supernatural things.


You know what I am waiting for someone to come out of the closet and say it, " I was wrong believing on Free Will. Sorry, I realize it now, Free Will doesn't make sense, it is unreasonable, it is an illusion. However, since I am new be at this I still have tremendous cognitive dissonace against it. I need to fight it. thanks to Abdul who woke me up, showed me the path."

And you will have my salute.
Don't run from the truth, embrace it. Love the truth.
Truth will set ou free.
Leaving Islam or Christianity is not sufficient you must learn to love the truth.
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charleslemartel
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Re: God, Free Will & Contingency

Post by charleslemartel »

AbdulRahman wrote:Charles,

You have not answer this question. Please answer it.

Given the fact that your logical mind is recognizing that all the evidence AND logic are against Free Will but something in you telling you not to give up on Free Will yet.
Where this thought, idea, wish, desire, urge is originating from? On what basis?
Abdul, I really think I have answered this question. I don't know if it is coming from the limbic system or not. At the conscious level, I have already explained my position. It is just that you and I see freedom a bit differently.
How it is any different from the Faith in God, Allah, Jesus, or Bhagvan?
It is different because for me there is no valid argument for a creator God.

I will try to explain myself in a better way: Do you think we are free citizens in a democratic set up?

You might argue that we are not because we can't kill at will, for example. If by freedom you mean an absolute freedom to do anything one wants, then you need not convince me that such a freedom does not exist anywhere: not in any country, nor at the quantum or any other level.

Freedom for me is not absolute.
I know that there are laws, both man made and natural, and that we are free to do certain things and not free to do some other things. If you know the laws of your country well, you can enjoy greater freedom than most other ignorant citizens. Same is true for natural laws too. I have already given examples about how knowledge gives you greater degrees of freedom.
Please keep function of limbic system, subconscious and conscious mind (frontal lobe) in mind. Also remember, early evolution has developed some readymade short cut in the brain (limbic system) for the survival purpose that are not necessarily true in all circumstances. I assume, you are also aware of the fact that many of our body function, and part of the brain works without our permission or knowledge.
And yet, we can affect those bodily systems; the more you know about them, the better you will be at affecting their functioning.

Charles wrote:Knowledge also allows greater degrees of freedom.
Isn't that an illusion?
Chain of freedom has to be free all the way, from one end to another.
Talking of illusion, I am fully capable of arguing that everything is illusion, and that mankind can't know reality/truth simply because of the limited cognition nature has endowed us with. But I don't want to divert from the interesting topic we are already discussing.
Your thinking of knowledge gave us freedom is analogous to measuring the strength of a chain by its strongest link. As you know it is the weakest link that will determine the strength of the chain and so is the case with Free Will.

Remember, Mr. Smith inside the Matrix movie thinks and feel he got the freedom but that is just a software program.
That is exactly my point. Smith from his own perspective does not know the truth which we spectators know. We, only AFTER knowing what the matrix is, can say anything better about it.

All I have been saying is that humans, scientists or philosophers, have not yet been able to understand the mechanism of choices/decisions. All we know is that they spring from some depths we have not yet been able to shine enough light in. There have been some people who claim that they achieved the total wakefulness, and they have their own opinions about the issue. But of course their opinions are subjective which are of no value to us. Moreover, unlike the general run of the mill religious, miraculous persons, they also keep reminding us that we must not believe what they say simply because they are saying it. Their whole emphasis is on we following the process and knowing/experiencing the truth ourselves. Sounds pretty scientific attitude to me, with the difference that while a scientist can conduct an experiment and show it to us (without each of us having to conduct the experiments ourselves), they say that the experience is subjective and that we have to see/experience it ourselves; even this sounds pretty reasonable to me.

How is this different from the claims of existence of God? In another discussion, I have made it clear that by God I understand "the creator God" and I argue against him using reason and logic. I also made it clear that if by God someone means something other than a creator God, I have no problems as I don't have arguments against such a God which might be anything. If someone wants to claim that this universe itself is the God, fine. I can't argue that the universe doesn't exist. If someone claims that the underlying reality behind the whole existence is God, fine. I can't argue that no underlying reality behind the whole existence exists.

I am agnostic about the ETs too. So far there is no evidence in favor of their existence. But I can't claim that they don't exist. They are supposed to be another life form, and since some life forms already exist on the earth, who can claim that they don't exist somewhere else in the universe? I feel that since we don't have any credible evidence for them, we should not claim that they exist. But we can't claim that they don't either.

Even many of the mystics say that we don't have free will, and that it is simply an illusion. As you know by now, I am a big fan of mysticism (my own version of it, of course), but still I can't make myself believe them simply because I have not yet KNOWN it. On the other hand, mystics behave differently than most of us. The things that perturb us no end, don't seem to have any effect on them. They don't seem to lose their equanimity. They don't seem to be driven by motives which are driving forces for our lives. I am interested in knowing what makes them different. Are they able to choose whether to get angry by insults or simply let them slide off the skin as water slides off the back of the duck? It seems so. Are they able to choose to be calm and fearless even in the face of violence and death? It certainly seems so. And all they say is necessary is to wake up, or become aware, or be conscious, or know thyself.

Anyway, enough said. Let us not dwell any more on my agnosticism about free will. I don't deny that I might have a few blind spots even though I try to be honest with myself. Let us move on to the issue of crime and punishment in the absence of any kind of free will while you continue to argue with MBL, Fathom and others about the issue, or whenever you feel ready for it.
Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
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Re: God, Free Will & Contingency

Post by yeezevee »

"AbdulRahman" : To YeeZeVee and All the people of Faith on (God or Free Will)

yeezevee, It is a philosophical question that might use science or might not. Don't worry, it's actually a very difficult subject for many, even those who can easily grasp science.
yeezevee: There is a fundamental difference between a just Philosopher and those with the background of basic science. Social/political Philosophers generally do not reach agreement for a solution of a problem. They go on arguing until their death who is right and who is wrong after that their follower do the same thing. It is a never ending chit-chat which sometimes will lead to political fights. These guys normally do not resolve the issues on which they differ.

Where as in the case of scientists[/philosopher] they do reach an agreement at least with-in the circle of those who are regarded as competent to judge a given field at a given time. one of the fundamental premises of a scientist is "Never consider anything absolute and always give some room to improve. Usually scientist always allow to question the concepts including their own.


"AbdulRahman" : Finally, an honest, and reasonable comment from YeeZeVee. Thanks for that.
Philosohy without reason and science are fairy tale. I flush that in my toilet.
That is good something reasonable thingy comes out of my words., Thank you Abdul., But your toilet is Clogged., hell , forget toilet, you brain is clogged dear Abdul

So on those red colored words of yours.,
How about "philosophy with reason and science "??
Is it a fairy tale??
I agree with your above comment except the part where you said "it [question of Free Will] is a very difficult subject".
You don't read the post properly dear Abdul., Those are NOT my words and on top of it, you added this [question of Free Will].,to my words ., Don't do that.,..lol..
It is difficult for those only whose neural network have not been reconfigured fully in synch with laws of nature, reason, logic, and science, the truth. People do have subconscious level faith on things. Until rigorously challenged those Faith doesn’t surface.

Only you (individual himself) can question and realize, identify the faith in your own brain.
Off course I identify faith with brain., i don't think anything works without brain in human beings as well as in animals.
Faith is, any belief that is not reasonable.
No..No..no., Faith is reasonable., every belief and every faith is reasonable for biological species and there is NOTHING wrong in it., as long as Golden rule guides your actions that are based on faith.
I am not denying the fact and the importance of Love, emotion, empathy, forgiveness, passion etc. These are present in human psyche and are useful. But that doesn't mean we should lose the sight of reason, logic, rationality, and science to understand these.
Good., I am glad you understand that., but often you write as if you don't understand that and you are robot. Off course we should NOT(NEVER) lose the sight of reason, logic, rationality, and science to understand these for that matter anything in the universe.
Question of free will is very profound. It has far reaching implications.
I agree with you
Implications reach:
God, Crime and punishment, Man’s Laws, Love, man, machine, animal rights, deterrent vs. punishment or revenge, restitution vs. retribution, who to blame, what percentage Muslims should be punish or rrestituted etc.
ah Ha! that is where I and you differ.
YeeZeVee, come on, what are you so afraid of, from the truth.
Does the truth of "No Free Will" scare you?

Muslims and Christians who hired me to spank the butt of illogical/faithful minds at FFI are laughing at you folks now.
:lol: BUM., DUMB.. Robot..
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Muhammad bin Lyin
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Re: God, Free Will & Contingency

Post by Muhammad bin Lyin »

AbdulRahman wrote:Muhammad bin Lyin,
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:
AbdulRahman wrote: Everything must be explained using reason, logic, and science or just say, we can't explain that yet.
Isn't that what some people say when talking about an afterlife or even the existence of God??
That's why I do not believe either in after life or on Free Will.

You really have no idea what I'm talking about, don't you.
I do not understand schizophrenic person's talk either.

You have given up on Allah. Now move to the next level and give up on Free Will delusion. Grow and evolve.
The question of free will has been around far longer than anything that you would consider to be science.
That doesn't make it true.
My goodness, you consistently misunderstood every single thing I said. Amazing. It's almost a talent. :lol: You take everything in the opposite fashion that you are supposed to take it. This is why I call you cross eyed. :crazy:
AbdulRahman wrote:
with perfect knowledge of all factors of any given moment, that determinism would say that we can, with 100% certainty, predict the reaction to the stimulus??
Neither we have perfect knowledge nor can we predict anything with 100% certainty.
I'm telling you what determinism says. What is the matter with you?
AbdulRahman wrote: All we can say is that there is overwhelming evidence and logic that we do not have Free Will.
That's what determinism would say. Why don't you read up on determinism and learn what it is before you go trolling around here?
AbdulRahman wrote: For children mind likes yours and others this illusion is comforting.
Free will is not a comforting illusion and in fact, it's the opposite because one has to take responsibility for one's actions but with no free will one doesn't have to take responsibility for their actions. This is the third time I've said this to you only to have you act as though you've never heard this. You just keep repeating yourself no matter what anybody tells you. Maybe that joke i make about how it can't be a genetic thing so it must be an Islamic thing is wrong. :lol:
AbdulRahman wrote: Reason based conclusion
Aside from who is right or wrong, you've demonstrated a very questionable ability to reason properly.
AbdulRahman wrote: that there is no Free Will is much stronger than empirical one. The logic is: since everything in the brain follows strict laws of nature therefore, “Free Will” cannot exist.
If everything followed the strict laws of nature and we had perfect knowledge of this, their reaction could be predicted with 100% accuracy

AbdulRahman wrote: A reasonable mind doesn't need anything else to understand that Free Will cannot exist.
A shallow mind.
AbdulRahman wrote: I know, it is very painful for you even to think of "No Free Will".
No it's not, no free will means no responsibility. Once again, your ideas are completely backwards. :crazy: I guess it CAN be a genetic thing and my joke is wrong.

AbdulRahman wrote:
It hurts your feeling just like Muslims mind explodes with pain when you make cartoon of Mohammad.
Muslim and you both got faith, just on different things.
And look at how wrong you are now :lol: Look at the egg on your face. Look at it. Stare at it. Acknowledge it.
AbdulRahman wrote:
Until you come out of the closet, think, understand and then clearly say, “using all the current evidence and logic it shows Free Will cannot and doesn’t exist” you will be in constant battle between maintaining your mental comfort zone (CD) at the expense of truth. Cover up, using deceptive tactic like politicians do, your using unnecessary terms like, “lose yourself”, “selfish-act” wouldn’t solve the problem.
You have to understand and say it: “Free Will cannot and doesn’t exist.”
Look at how your mind invents these preconceptions and then look at how wrong you ended up being. Just study it. Observe yourself.
AbdulRahman wrote:
Oh, BTW, I forgot to tell you earlier that Muslims and Christians hired me to spank your but with my logic.
And now you're a liar. But we know that lying isn't a shameful act in your culture, so it's no surprise. Just look at how much Muslims lie.
AbdulRahman wrote:
You are going down in your own eyes. Because, I am exposing your own illogic to you. I am sending you through the hell of Cognitive Dissonance.
You need tom look away from the mirror. You're certainly getting frustrated which is why you are bothering with this ridiculous posturing.
AbdulRahman wrote:
I am not denying the fact and the importance of Love, emotion, compassion, forgiveness, passion etc. These are present in human psyche and are useful. But that doesn't mean we should lose the sight of reason, logic, rationality, and science to understand these.
Love is beyond the conceptualizing mind.

AbdulRahman wrote:
Again, summary,:: since everything in the brain follows strict laws of nature, cause and effect, therefore, Free Will cannot exist.

The more you think on this the more you will be humiliated in your own mind. Muslims are laughing at you, now.
You honestly have no idea what a fool you've made of yourself, do you.
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Fathom
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Re: God, Free Will & Contingency

Post by Fathom »

AbdulRahman wrote:Fathom,
Fathom wrote:
Abdul wrote:If with one eye a person can see one mile down the road then with 2 eyes how far he/she can see?
Your question is ridiculous, and it does not counter my analogy in any way whatsoever.
Of course, it doesn’t contradict your analogy of lion. I gave you a better analogy on your behalf. I wrote that from your side, seemingly on your favour. Your analogy of lions and my analogy of one/two eyes convey the message. Only mine is concise and sharper.
Your analogy has nothing to do with mine and cannot be compared in any way. I am talking about perception/comprehension and you are talking about perception/vision. There is no comparison between my analogy and yours at all.

You simply failed to logically understand my analogy. Either that, or you are avoiding it because you cannot argue with it. My hunter sees 3 X the lion when mathematically there are only 2. Both are supposedly true. So once again, answer the question:

How can both be true?
AbdulRahman wrote: I said, we scientist can defend your side better than you can. Please scroll up and reads my post again.
You cannot even understand my argument, and you call yourself a "scientist?" You are not a scientist at all in my opinion. You do not possess the intellectual capacity to achieve that status.
Fathom wrote:I wrote no such argument as you've listed above. My argument was "Since no one can demonstrate the origin of existence, "determinism" cannot be validated." Determinism absolutely requires an origin to be true, and so far no origin has been proven. All you have is theory.
You missed the point.
To be able to predict the future one indeed needs the
1) initial condition (big-bang) AND
I'll stop you right here and use your own words to demonstrate that I do indeed understand the point you are trying to make. I have stated that "Since no one can demonstrate the origin of existence," which you equate as initial condition (big-bang), then there is no ability "to predict the future. In order for your position to be true, you must conclusively demonstrate that the origin of existence had an initial condition, such as the Big Bang. Therefore, you must answer the following question:

Can you conclusively prove that there ever was an initial condition/origin of existence?

If you cannot conclusively prove the above question, nothing more you can say matters at all, for your argument is moot and pointless, as it lacks the required evidence to make it valid. You cannot take a theory such as the Big Bang and use it as a fact in your argument. You are attempting to use a "belief" such as the Big Bang to support your argument, and you call me a baby atheist?

You are more of a believer than any Muslim or Christian I have ever met. Your belief in the Big Bang as the origin of existence is just as religious as a Muslim's belief in Allah.

You are no different.
Oh, BTW, I forgot to tell you earlier that Muslims and Christians hired me to spank your butt with my logic.
Don't quit your day job, "Mr Scientist."
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Muhammad bin Lyin
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Re: God, Free Will & Contingency

Post by Muhammad bin Lyin »

Fathom wrote: You cannot even understand my argument, and you call yourself a "scientist?" You are not a scientist at all in my opinion. You do not possess the intellectual capacity to achieve that status.
Of course he isn't a scientist. Did he say he was??? I must have missed that because I would have been all over that claim as it's obvious that a scientist wouldn't troll like he does. He doesn't even properly understand the basics of QP. He simply gets an idea in his head and that's it. It's all over. He can't be talked to. Even if you come up with the best point possible, he will not understand it or merely ignore it and merely repeat his claim again. He's done this over and over again. In short, he's basically trolling at this point and isn't capable of staying with a two sided conversation properly.
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AbdulRahman
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Re: God, Free Will & Contingency

Post by AbdulRahman »

Fathom and Mohammad Bin Lying,

Please read this post and specially the second link
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=6613&start=200#p111240" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
yeezevee
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Re: God, Free Will & Contingency

Post by yeezevee »

AbdulRahman
Faith on supernatural comes in many forms: alien abduction, soul, god, ghost, angel, free will, life after death, mysticism, witchcraft, jesus, allah, Mohammad, or even 9/11 was an insider job, man never landed on the moon, psychic, astrology.
First you have to define what is supernatural dear Abdul., Next I can safely replace the words of this lady in this video


with your words, except both are opposite spectrum of faith.. But still you have faith and you don't want others to question it..
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Muhammad bin Lyin
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Re: God, Free Will & Contingency

Post by Muhammad bin Lyin »

AbdulRahman wrote:Fathom and Mohammad Bin Lying,

Please read this post and specially the second link
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=6613&start=200#p111240" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Why should I bother?? You've already demonstrated that you are incapable of grasping what is being said to you, and therefore a two way conversation with you is impossible. And I'm not participating in a one way conversation. Maybe you think one way conversations are valuable but I don't.
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AbdulRahman
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Re: God, Free Will & Contingency

Post by AbdulRahman »

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:
AbdulRahman wrote:Fathom and Mohammad Bin Lying,

Please read this post and specially the second link
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=6613&start=200#p111240" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Why should I bother?? You've already demonstrated that you are incapable of grasping what is being said to you, and therefore a two way conversation with you is impossible. And I'm not participating in a one way conversation. Maybe you think one way conversations are valuable but I don't.

You have been responding to my posts. So, how it is one way communication? No one is forcing you to respond.
As I said, if you ask me an intelligent question then you wil get a to the point response from me.
Go ahead try.
MBL wrote:Love is beyond the conceptualizing mind.
Did you know that Love is viewable in the brain under fMRI?
Or are you still living in the 7th century Moahmmadian cave?
Last edited by AbdulRahman on Thu May 27, 2010 7:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Fathom
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Re: God, Free Will & Contingency

Post by Fathom »

AbdulRahman wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:
AbdulRahman wrote:Fathom and Mohammad Bin Lying,

Please read this post and specially the second link
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=6613&start=200#p111240" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Why should I bother?? You've already demonstrated that you are incapable of grasping what is being said to you, and therefore a two way conversation with you is impossible. And I'm not participating in a one way conversation. Maybe you think one way conversations are valuable but I don't.

You have been responding to my posts. So, how it is one way communication? No one is forcing you to respond.
As I said, if you ask me an intelligent question then you wil get a very to the point response from me.
Go ahead try.
I have asked you 2 very intelligent questions in my previous post and you have not answered them at all. In fact, I asked you those very same questions a number of times in this thread, but you never answer them.

Go ahead try.
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Re: God, Free Will & Contingency

Post by AbdulRahman »

Fathom wrote:
Abdul wrote:As I said, if you ask me an intelligent question then you wil get a to the point response from me.
Go ahead try.
I have asked you 2 very intelligent questions in my previous post and you have not answered them at all. In fact, I asked you those very same questions a number of times in this thread, but you never answer them.

Go ahead try.
Fathom,

Pleasse ask me again. Please just cut and paste and put number in the question.
I will address them. I hope MBL will learn from my respond too.

I wanted to discuss the implications of No Free Will in our sense of morality, crime and punishment, revenge, restitution and retribution, % of Muslims who have become catalist to the terrorism, right and wrong, good and bad, true and false etc.
But alas, we are stuck at the very first step.

Please read this post and specially the second link in the post first.
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=6613&p=111340#p111240" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: God, Free Will & Contingency

Post by AbdulRahman »

Charles and others

Please first read this post and specially the 2nd link in that post.
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=6613&p=111320#p111240" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Argument 1;
Do you think we are free citizens in a democratic set up?
That is a fantastic question. This is one of the best questions I have received against “No Free Will”
Here is my answer/explanation and anticipated natural follow up questions from your side and my response to the anticipated questions.
Short and deep answer is NO.
Anticipated logical follow up question: Why then we do not like to live in North Korea or Iran or Saudi Arabia (SA)?

Counter Argument 1a
That is because we have illusion of free will. This illusion is comforting that is why we do not want to live in North Korea. Fewer legal and cultural restrictions in the West allow many more outcomes than in SA. As a result our illusion on Free Will gets falsely reinforced. The increase number of possibilities is not due to our free will but due to the increase number of permutation and combination.

On the surface it appears that we have freedom in the West than in SA but when you put this under the microscope then Free Will is nowhere in sight.

Counter Argument 1b
100 zillion molecules in a restricted box will produce fewer varieties than in less restricted box. This doesn’t make molecules have more Free Will in unrestricted box than in restricted box

Counter Argument 1c
How self delusion keep one happy: Example/Neuropsychological Case Study:
21 years old Robert is madly in love with his college freshman classmate, 20 years old Susan. Susan doesn’t have any feeling for Robert. Robert deluded himself that Susan also loves her. Robert keep registering in the same classes Susan takes because he can see her there. Robert even skips his required classes just to see her more often. Robert’s really enjoy her sight. His love for Susan and the enjoyment of it shows up even in the fMRI lab. There is no love or enjoyment in Susan’s brain when she sees Robert.
This case study is not about Free Will but shows that brain’s pleasure area can be falsely reinforce by illusion.

Counter Argument 1d
Then question is about the term you used “Free Citizens”
Did you mean we will have more free will in the West? Of course NOT.
If you meant more variety of outcome is possible in the West. Of course YES.

Argument 2
If you know the laws of your country well, you can enjoy greater freedom than most other ignorant citizens. Same is true for natural laws too.
And yet, we can affect those bodily systems; the more you know about them, the better you will be at affecting their functioning.
Counter Argument 2
Both of your above statements are only conditionally true. The condition is “If we know more”
Comparing two person A and B, whoever knows more about the laws of nature and apply his knowledge will satisfy more of his/her desires.
Again the above statement is true.
But you need to ask yourself what will make you know more?
There are reason behind one’s ability, desire, and action with the help of which he/she would learn more. And you and I have no control over that priori. This is a chain of “cause and effect”

Logic 101
If there were no gravity on Earth then we could float.
The statement is conditionally true. But what would make the gravity vanish in the first place?

Argument 3
That is exactly my point. Smith from his own perspective does not know the truth which we spectators know. We, only AFTER knowing what the matrix is, can say anything better about it.
Counter Argument 3
In our universe we know a lot more than Mr. Smith did. We know that there is “chain of cause and effect” and HUP. Neither of these creates free will. Therefore, given all the knowledge we must conclude there is no Free Will.

Argument 4
All I have been saying is that humans, scientists or philosophers, have not yet been able to understand the mechanism of choices/decisions. All we know is that they spring from some depths we have not yet been able to shine enough light in.

Counter Argument 4: This one is important.
Read your above statement very carefully. It has hidden assumption that we have Free Will, choice. Why should we assume they even exist?

Corollary
All I have been saying is that humans, scientists or philosophers, have not yet been able to understand the mechanism of existence of Allah.[ Allah as all merciful, omnipotent, omniscience and who created hell and heaven.]
How is this different from the claims of existence of God? In another discussion, I have made it clear that by God I understand "the creator God" and I argue against him using reason and logic.
Here I am talking about the “Allah of Quran” with all its contradiction. Applying your logic of Free Will one can’t deny the existence of” Allah of Quran”.
In the above corollary I just “search and replace” choice/decisions with Allah.
I hope this should convince you.

ET
I am agnostic about the ETs too. So far there is no evidence in favour of their existence. But I can't claim that they don't exist.
I talked about alien abduction and even alien visiting Earth as faith, as superstition, lack of judgement power, weak mind. Being agnostic about the mere existence of ET somewhere in the Universe is perfectly reasonable.

Mysticism
I wanted to address your love affair with Mysticism in a spate thread but I will address it here since you brought it up.
There have been some people who claim that they achieved the total wakefulness, and they have their own opinions about the issue. But of course their opinions are subjective which are of no value to us. Moreover, unlike the general run of the mill religious, miraculous persons, they also keep reminding us that we must not believe what they say simply because they are saying it. Their whole emphasis is on we following the process and knowing/experiencing the truth ourselves. Sounds pretty scientific attitude to me, with the difference that while a scientist can conduct an experiment and show it to us (without each of us having to conduct the experiments ourselves), they say that the experience is subjective and that we have to see/experience it ourselves; even this sounds pretty reasonable to me.
Taking LSD give you all kinds of experience. Near death experience gives you a lot to stupid stuff. Schizophrenic person experience all sorts of things.
Point is, in the world of reality and reason and science, self-experience is not sufficient.
I repeat, self-experience is not sufficient.
We must doubt our own mind. Doubting one own sanity is one of the most important aspects of science why it is so successful. We know there is placebo effect. We can’t just go by our feelings –Even if my feeling is most genuine. Brains do malfunction. There are illusions. No one is immune to it.
Do not take the following one liner lightly.

“Qualified, 3rd Party, Double Blind, Successive Approximation, Statistical Methodology” is the ONLY way to find the truth.
Ponder the implication of every term in this sentence.
Truth is the goal. Justice/fairness/symmetrical test is the mean.
Happiness can’t be and shouldn’t be the ultimate goal.
Only Truth should be the ultimate goal.
However, if someone is in love with the truth then he will get the happiness as well. But he must shoot for the truth with passion. Happiness will come as a by-product.

Mystic crap.
List your top 100 mystic people and top 100 most influential scientist/philosophers.
Which group have done more good for the world?
Some mystic lies, rest got malfunctioned brain.
Which group gave us more knowledge?
Which group gave us more understanding?
Which group cured more diseases?

Transcendental Meditation:
Even Transcendental Meditation got bad rap now because of its false claims and money making schemes. The most sanitised version of these is “Mindful Meditation” or just simply “Meditation”
Even that has little effect. Yes, By Meditation you can temporarily (few minutes) lower your blood pressure or increase or decrease your heart rate by small amount. But there is not long term effect. Meditation has some positive effect. But by meditation you can’t increase your IQ significantly, or knowledge, a lot of practice, increase your understanding of nature.
Yes, stress has long term effect on health. Physical exercise has far more effect on mind and body.

Increasing your mental capacity.
The best way to sharpen your mind is to drop lies as soon as you can and collect truths.
This is easier said than done. Look, how difficult it is for you to drop the idea of Free Will or how difficult it is for a devout Christian to drop the lies of Jesus walked on the water or was raised from the death. Dropping lies is not as simple as is sound.

When one collect only truth in his mind then in effect his/her mind gets rewired according to this new information. After a lot of practice of always telling the truth like, there is no free will, no god, no hell or heaven, man did land on the moon, and it gets reinforced, and eventually pushed back to the subconscious level. As you know our subconscious mind is about 800 times faster than conscious mind. As a result next time when you encounter a problem, issue, puzzle, a choice/alternative option, your subconscious mind process the information even without your knowledge and comes up with an answer. We call this intuition.
So, collect truth and get smarter. You will increase your IQ as well.
For a smart brain we need two things. A lot of correct data and speed.

What is the aperture of consciousness?
Very small.
Therefore, rewire your subconscious and even lower level neural networks with the truth and truth only.
The things that perturb us no end, don't seem to have any effect on them. They don't seem to lose their equanimity. They don't seem to be driven by motives which are driving forces for our lives.
Are they able to choose whether to get angry by insults or simply let them slide off the skin as water slides off the back of the duck? It seems so. Are they able to choose to be calm and fearless even in the face of violence and death? It certainly seems so.
No, wonder they achieve very little for themselves and for others. See “Mystic Crap” above.
Not a good idea. We do need passion. Without passion we will survive. Ignite your intelligence with passion. The key is the right mixture of passion and reason.
Passion is: no or very little processing but very fast.
Reason is: a lot of processing but slow.
We need both.
I am interested in knowing what makes them different.
Attempting know why they are different is fine.
But their state of mind is not desirable.
A person in comma, in vegetable state do not feel anger either.
These passionless Mystic people won’t climb Mount Everest nor will invent medicine.

Reason and passion both are necessary for human flourishment.
Passion is the drive, reason is the process, truth is the goal, happiness is the by-product. –Abdul Rahman 1980
35 years ago in my late teen I figure out there is No Free Will. Rest of the thing is history.
No god, no angel, no after life, no alien abduction, no mysticism was became easy.
I did not need today’s fMRI’s empirical data for the proof of No Free Will.
Simple logic and reason was sufficient for me to know for fact there is “NO FREE WILL whatsoever, ever, in any circumstances for anybody, anything, any entity. Period.”
Back in 1978-1979 fMRI did not even exist. Now fMRI is revealing the empirical data against Free Will.
Cognitive Dissonance/Consonance, Selfishness for MR, PR, and SR are very important concepts.
Last edited by AbdulRahman on Fri May 28, 2010 5:30 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: God, Free Will & Contingency

Post by The Cat »

Reference: viewtopic.php?p=111042#p111042" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
charleslemartel wrote:This jump (to save another's life) is not spontaneous; it is the result of the teaching and conditioning. You jump because you are pre-programmed. Most of the thinking takes place in the subconscious at a super speed; actually I don't think much thinking is possible through the conscious mind. An act can be spontaneous only if there is no subconscious processes going on, and when you are fully aware.
The jumper is fully aware that the other fellow is drowning. So he jumps instantaneously without 'asking' his pre-programmed subconscious if its agreeable to save someone, then turning to his limbic system just to realize... Ooops, too late, the fellow had drowned for good! Acts aren't necessarily from a thought process when carried as an act. They do not have to be related and they do not even belong to the same time equation: an act is NOW and, as an act, doesn't belong to the past in the being-done instant
charleslemartel wrote:There can be no "spontaneous" desire. Each desire is the result of programming....
There is. In one word it's a caprice, a sudden or spontaneous desire, sometimes so gratuitous that we wonder.
charleslemartel wrote:Free will might be instantaneous, but not every spontaneous impulse is free will. It is, most of the times, the result of predispositions.
So you acknowledge Free Will after all. Then again these predispositions aren't necessarily dictating us what to do, they are merely tendencies without will power.

charleslemartel wrote:Awareness is not to marvel at anything. It is simply awareness of whatever is happening in this very moment. It is simply like a mirror; if there is creativity, it would reflect it, and so on. It doesn't distinguish between good and bad, or creative or destructive.
I hope you don't get aware while an earthquake happens then. You'll get into trouble if you don't distinguish anything out of 'awareness'.

I'll tell you how it goes from a personal experience: I'm a guitarman and once I was alone in my room when That came to me. You may feel some dizziness when it rushes in. So I picked up my guitar but didn't feel like really playing. So all I did was to hit a note of open A and kept on listening to those 440 vibrations per second for as long as I could hear it. It was astonishing! Amazing! Never did I heard anything like that! So I repeated the note, again and again. My ears never listened to anything as marvelous as this single note and I thought: ''Why did we made other notes? This one is -perfect-!'' I looked at my watch and five hours had past since the beginning of the experience. This kind of 'moment' you never ever forget: I was listening then, not just hearing.
charleslemartel wrote:Creativity has no relationship with awareness. The only criterion for a mystic is awareness; creativity and/or expression is only incidental.
I do not use creativity in the sense of writing a poem or painting but creativity as in the constant renewal of life's flowing. That's awareness!
Yet through their originality great artists are plugged into this flows of life. See...

Within You, Without You (George Harrison, Indian arrangements, one chord -C-)

Lyrics (George Harrison)
We were talking-about the space between us all
And the people-who hide themselves behind a wall of illusion
Never glimpse the truth -then it's far too late- when they pass away.

We were talking -about the love we all could share
-when we find it To try our best to hold it there- with our love
With our love -we could save the world- if they only knew.

Try to realize it's all within yourself, No-one else can make you change
And to see you're really only very small, And life flows ON within you and without you.

We were talking -about the love that's gone so cold
and the people, Who gain the world and lose their soul-
They don't know -they can't see- are you one of them?

When you've seen beyond yourself -then you may find, peace of mind, Is waiting there-
And the time will come when you see we're all one, and life flows on within you and without you.
charleslemartel wrote:I really think that you are mistaking awareness with Free will. Kids are more aware, but not necessarily more free. In fact they are greater slaves to their instincts. Someone has famously said that to him buffaloes seem to be more enlightened than humans.
The more you are aware of your predispositions, the less they are to influence you and thus liberate more Free Will.

Then you say that kids are more aware yet greater slaves to their instincts. Do you realize your equation? I'll spare you the buffaloes.
charleslemartel wrote:Enlightenment is acquired; it is not a given.
Noops. It's neither acquired (no guru will bring it to you nor see through your eyes) or given. Try again...
charleslemartel wrote:It frees you from the tyranny of programmed emotions, but not every emotionless moron can be said to be enlightened.
1. Programmed emotions are 'tyrannical' ? Do you think we should fire at our TV, shot down Internet ? Or not enjoy a sport match ?
2. Enlightened people are emotionless ? Maybe buffaloes are more enlightened than humans after all. What about the ants? I'll ruminate on this...
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Re: God, Free Will & Contingency

Post by The Cat »

AbdulRahman wrote:To the people of Faith on Free Will:
Proof of moronic, illiterate, statements.
[color=#FF0000] [b]The Cat[/b][/color] wrote:Free Will is a spontaneous act. When jumping into water to save someone, you don't think: You jump and/or call for help. You ACT.
You are not aware of the fact that your brain computed in subconscious level and even in the lover than subconscious level (limbic system).
Subconscious mind is found to be 800 times faster than conscious mind. Limbic system some time is even faster.
First, these are not ACTS, let alone spontaneous. Then they do NOT dictates us what to do, merely evaluating the situation in a glimpse. You can't get that Free Will is an idea in motion which can only be made in the present, here and now. So it's not part of the past-future equation you are referring to. It escapes it all (options) from being emergence, constantly reshaping the equation, such an emergence being the Big Bang itself, and evolution. That's exactly why we can't predict the future. These emergences are like this thread, so the continuum is really that of innovations and originality through Free Will. In your fatalist equation, really nothing ever happens but a rehash of the laws of nature. We simply choose differently...
May be I am from 22nd century.
Noops, precisely from the time of Spinoza, the 17th century. Your theory is based on the Necessitarians view upon the laws of nature as first laid down by the pantheism of Spinoza in his Ethics. You've simple switched his belief in the omnipresent substance of God for 'the laws of Nature'. For Spinoza God is the only thing that actually is and nothing can happen that is not the will of God, thus no free will. See how theistic (pantheist) your source is.

According to wikipedia, Necessitarianism is even much stricter than Hard Determinism: ''Necessitarianism is a metaphysical principle that denies all mere possibility; there is exactly one way for the world to be. It is the strongest member of a family of principles, including hard determinism, each of which deny free choice, reasoning that human actions are predetermined by external or internal antecedents. Necessitarianism is stronger than hard determinism, because even the hard determinist would grant that the causal chain constituting the world might have been different as a whole, even though each member of that series could not have been different, given its antecedent causes.''
Our entire scientific knowledge could be proven to be wrong and naive 200 years from now. We might develop a completely new set of laws of physics that could explain things even better.
That was done from the beginning of the 1920s until now where Causal Determinism is proven faulty from many scientific experiences. But since your mind is still in the 17th century, you missed them all.
The only reason you can't understand this is because you are using wrong kind of logic/science. But one day, after you die you will find out Abdul Rahman is the God.
Will charleslemartel be your un-programmed prophet? He seems reluctant...
Reason based conclusion that there is no Free Will is much stronger than empirical one. The logic is: since everything in the brain follows strict laws of nature therefore, “Free Will” cannot exist.
See how you follow the doctrine of Spinoza? That of the Necessitarians? But, ooooops... they have been proven faulty by deductive reason. Simply because the laws of nature aren't -necessarily- dictating us about what to do. They merely indicate WHAT IS, without furthermore interferences. Let's say it's a cold winter, then these laws will -suggest- that you wear a warm coat or heat your house. Yet they won't force you to wear a special kind of coat or combustion. You get into the world of preferences not of coercive laws about it. Your whole structure falls down...
since everything in the brain follows strict laws of nature, cause and effect, therefore, Free Will cannot exist.
You should learn better about causal determination, like the metaphysical basis for causal connection, that is: what is the difference between causally related and causally unrelated sequences? Now, what is the basis for causal connection? Is causal connection primitive and irreducible? Or is the belief in causal connectedness merely a folk myth? Is there some magic in the process, like flying an airplane or driving on four wheels?
I am not denying the fact and the importance of Love, emotion, empathy, forgiveness, passion etc. These are present in human psyche and are useful. But....
Yes you do, if self-logical. At least be consequent with yourself. So I wrote: ''According to you, there's no logical part of the brain, only thoughts that are mechanically reacting, so whatever you come up with has no intrinsic value. Since that's your own logic... you should evaporate in the Laws of Nature, which are just your 'scientist' version of God's omnipotence. Just like Muslims, you start from a deterministic regency (Allah) as if it was scientifically conclusive, while it's not. The world is much more like a pinball game where emergences constantly changes causality, one of such emergences being the Big Bang itself! See how you, AbdulRahman, sounds like a Muslim: you bow and prostrate to some wrong premise from which you deduce false certainties. The fact is that nothing is absolute as in your creed.''
Thanks but no thnks to "The Cat" for the following heart, feeling based proof for the Free Will.
Image
Image
and many more items
See how illogical you are. The first pic wasn't about Free Will but ironical to your statement that: ''Hey Cat, You better start using your frontal lobe instead of your limbic system otherwise I wll let my dog out. My dog will chase the cat.'' (end of page 8 page). Then you tried to state that my argument was theistic using Allah and I've showed how the theistic mind was yours instead.
viewtopic.php?p=111012#p111012" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The other pics emphasized human originality stemming out from Free Will. Of course all those artistic realizations aren't pointing to Free Will from A to Z, but they do testimony that somewhere in the making, Free Will (originality) was acting. So it was YOU who were relying on (negative) emotions not I. Free Will is NOT utterly predetermined by the laws of nature: someone having a Sunday drive on a no-particular-place-to-go trip is using much Free Will on the way, although still abiding to the physical laws of attraction and motion. Yet his car his defying some of them, like by its wheels.

You state to be a 'scientist' while relying on a totally discredited Hard Determinism pattern, out of the Necessitarians creed saying that the physical laws are dictating us, when they merely points to what is. It may be raining outside so the physical laws are -pointing- that I should take an umbrella, but they aren't -dictating- what we must do so. There's no absolute determination (Buddha's impermanence). So people react differently to the same stimulus in a wide range of possibilities although they are under the same laws of nature. Order is not in following an authority, but in the freedom of interactive common sense. It is not in conformity to the laws of nature but in originality within them.
As you know our subconscious mind is about 800 times faster than conscious mind. As a result next time when you encounter a problem, issue, puzzle, a choice/alternative option, your subconscious mind process the information even without your knowledge and comes up with an answer. We call this intuition. So, collect truth and get smarter. You will increase your IQ as well.
Can the tape recording you are repeating ad nauseam be a proof of 'increased IQ'?

Now, according to you there's no knowledge, only subconscious process giving us answers through intuition. But how will I know if this intuition isn't stemming from my pre-conditioned-self? Merely responding to my demand.
Ignite your intelligence with passion. The key is the right mixture of passion and reason.
Passion is no or very little processing but very fast.
Reason is a lot of processing but slow.
Do you think that my passion for Angelina Jolie will ignite my intelligence? What would be the exact mixture then? Try to reason with her?
Simple logic and reason was sufficient for me to know for fact there is “NO FREE WILL whatsoever, ever, in any circumstances for anybody, anything, any entity. Period.
Is this coming from your intuition or your pre-conditioned knowledge out of your limbo/limbic system?

That you have the least possible Free Will shows throughout your dictatorial certitude. You also have the logic and reason of a tape recorder.
Of a tape recorder
Of a tape recorder

Passion? You could have made a good mechanic. What a waste...
Last edited by The Cat on Fri May 28, 2010 2:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: God, Free Will & Contingency

Post by The Cat »

skynightblaze wrote:
BBG wrote: I see! didn't know about that discussion.

But i have always found his comments and arguments interesting.
I have no problem with his other arguments but the arguments concerning quran and the hadith seem faulty to me.He uses an academic approach to understand islam which is completely wrong. To understand quran one must understand muhammad. Quran is a collection of ramblings of a mad man with very little depth .I think he was wrong but you may think otherwise.
I'll answer in the concerned thread whenever I can stop laughing out loud about your ''Abu Hurairah is reliable.'' :lol1: :lotpot:

Most obviously, so far I couldn't... :roflmao:
I'll try again.
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Re: God, Free Will & Contingency

Post by skynightblaze »

The Cat wrote:
skynightblaze wrote:
BBG wrote: I see! didn't know about that discussion.

But i have always found his comments and arguments interesting.
I have no problem with his other arguments but the arguments concerning quran and the hadith seem faulty to me.He uses an academic approach to understand islam which is completely wrong. To understand quran one must understand muhammad. Quran is a collection of ramblings of a mad man with very little depth .I think he was wrong but you may think otherwise.
I'll answer in the concerned thread whenever I can stop laughing out loud about your ''Abu Hurairah is reliable.'' :lol1: :lotpot:

Most obviously, so far I couldn't... :roflmao:
I'll try again.
You are welcome pussy CAT!! Its looks like your gigantic ego has been hurt big time and simply not letting you go. :D When you are down to earth and done with your laughing please visit the thread and reply.I can understand you need to laugh to encourage yourself and I suppose thats the only way to satisfy your ego :*) .Btw If I am proven wrong I have the guts to accept unlike you.

@abdul

Sorry mate I decided not to post here but Pussy CAT has interrupted and I couldnt ignore. I will no longer post here unless related to the topic.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.
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Re: God, Free Will & Contingency

Post by AbdulRahman »

skynightblaze wrote:@abdul

Sorry mate I decided not to post here but Pussy CAT has interrupted and I couldnt ignore. I will no longer post here unless related to the topic.
You can just ignore the pussy Cat.
The Cat is a scitzophernic moron. He has no business with reason or science or truth. His brain is damaged. I feel sory for him.
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Re: God, Free Will & Contingency

Post by AbdulRahman »

Just because your theistic mind says the No Free Will is discredited doesn't make it so.
read this.
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/ ... e-will-an/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You are not there yet to overcome your own cognitive dissonance.
In the beginning "No Free Will" is very disappointing. You might be better off staying as baby.
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Re: God, Free Will & Contingency

Post by Muhammad bin Lyin »

AbdulRahman wrote:Just because your theistic mind says the No Free Will is discredited doesn't make it so.
read this.
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/ ... e-will-an/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You are not there yet to overcome your own cognitive dissonance.
In the beginning "No Free Will" is very disappointing.
And I keep telling you, no it isn't you stupid crackpot. With no free will, one doesn't have to take responsibility for their actions. This is the 4th time this has been repeated to you crackpot and you keep pretending as though nobody ever said it to you and keep repeating yourself. YOU are disappointed with the idea that there is no free will, not me. You keep projecting onto people and you consistently get it all wrong because you assume they are like you are. They're not. They're sane. They have a wide mind rather than a narrow one.
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