BBG wrote:Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:The great masters tell us that the most important question in the world is: "Who am I"? Or rather: "What is 'I'"? What is this thing I call "I"? What is this thing I call self? You mean you understood everything else in the world and you didn't understand this? You mean you understood astronomy and black holes and quasars and you picked up computer science, and you don't know who you are? My, you are still asleep. You are a sleeping scientist. You mean you understood what Jesus Christ is and you don't know who you are? How do you know that you have understood Jesus Christ? Who is the person doing the understanding? Find that out first. That's the foundation of everything, isn't it? It's because we haven't understood this that we've got all these stupid religious people involved in all these stupid religious wars -- Muslims fighting against Jews, Protestants fighting Catholics, and all the rest of that rubbish. They don't know who they are, because if they did, there wouldn't be wars.
"Who am I"? or "What is I"? As far as i have understood the quotes from various mystics given here by you, charles and the Cat, i think they are pointing towards consciousness as the real "I" and that every one's real self or nature is same pure consciousness, so there is no difference between people, between muslims and jews and muslims and christians and so on. When all people will realise that their real self or nature is same, there will be no differences, no fights, no wars.
If i am right, i think on that Abdul's position too was somewhat similar, the difference was that his view was that everyone's real self or nature is matter. And from as much as i know, i think those who consider consciousness to be the only true reality also lead to no free will position and Abdul form his view that matter is the only true reality was also leading to no free will position.
And i think debate here for last some pages was concentrated mainly on that point with both sides, with the exception of charles, holding on to their respective positions.
I said at the very beginning that I do not believe there is free will as long as we are slaves to pleasing ourselves. And 99% of the time, we are, with the possibility being held out that we can separate ourselves from the inner voice we all hear that we think is actually us. I said we always act in our self interest, but what I really meant by that was that everybody we all know does this. And Abdul, the machine, flips out because I said we always do this when I should have said almost everybody does this or "we all" as in everybody we know. What an annoyance. Most people would have read through that, but he's got another agenda going on. He NEEDS people here to be wrong and he NEEDS to try to catch them on the littlest of things. And therefore, isn't really paying attention to a single word they are saying.
So really, what it comes down to, is that Abdul has no answer for this, and therefore needs to maintain that it is impossible for people to act in any way other than their self interest or to please themselves for whatever reasons they have, because he knows that to acknowledge this, would ruin his idea. He actually knows this and saw it pages ago, and all he could do is to maintain that he is 100% certain that people cannot act this way, and yet he doesn't have the slightest bit of proof, and yet, when convenient, proof is required, but when not convenient for him, proof is not required. And then, it gets even worse because I never did argue for free will in my original post, I merely pointed out the only way there could be free will. But he never saw that. I brought up the word "mystics", and he was finished right there. All of his preconceived notions took over and he became completely blinded.
Pretty amazing, eh??