Religion - the root of all evil???

Does God exist? Is Allah God? Creation vs. evolution.
Is Religion needed? Logic vs. faith. Morality and ethics.
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Sten
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Re: Religion - the root of all evil???

Post by Sten »

IoshkaFutz wrote:Sten says: But you can't make Islam an exception, because Islam is a religious belief. You don't get to say "with the exception of Islam" - just because you're convinced your god is better than theirs.

Interesting... transpose the concept this is like an anarchist (atheist) telling a Democrat (Catholic) that he's no different than a Nazi (Muslim) inasmuch as both have the vice of governance.
I've noticed you intentionally misrepresent your opponent's argument in order to sneak in your dishonesty and make it less obvious.

I never said you were no different from a Muslim. I said your religious belief was in the same category. This is true, as both a Muslim and a Catholic have no evidence for their god, but are convinced not only that their god exists, but he's the only true god. Therefore, you don't get to make an exception for Islam when you're making the theism vs atheism argument, since your method of belief is no different from theirs. The THINGS YOU MAY BELIEVE and YOUR MORALS are different, but your justification for believing them is the same.
IoshkaFutz wrote:Yes, atheism is as sweet and innocent little negative as not liking dairy products. But of course... a little mind game et voilà millions of slaughtered get handily bundled with their victims. A strange sort of Negative that regularly goes militant!
That's an illogical assertion to make and you know it (not to mention extremely incoherently worded), as it's not the lack of belief that goes militant, is it? The militant mindset requires an ideology, something that a negative cannot provide. You'll find that every militant atheist also has a militant ideology whether it be Marxism, Stalinism, Anarchism, Scientology, etc. The non-militant atheists do not share this militant ideology. Your unreasonable desire to lump atheists who do not have a militant ideology in with the militants is indicative of your unwillingness to debate using truthfulness. Like other Catholics I've debated with, you are someone who uses hysterical, sensationalist language and illogical correlations in order to get an irrational point across.
IoshkaFutz wrote:Sten says:
A religion with a god that touted the principals of Maoism or Stalinism would be just as bad as Maoism or Stalinism.

This was answered. Calling them "gods" or "deified" is just poetic licence. The whole thing about a fake god is that he is not God, he is a godless.
There are those who see your god as fake, and you as being godless. Whether something is godlike or not is a matter of opinion.
IoshkaFutz wrote:Tell me with a straight face that Mao or Stalin or their most fervent supporters really thought that those men had the qualities of God as commonly conceived (never mind if truly existant or not), but as commonly conceived. Did Stalin consider himself the creator of the Universe? Truly ubiquitous? Eternal? Capable of miracles? All-knowing?
These are qualities commonly concieved by monotheists, but the concept of a god doesn't have to include these qualities. The ancient polytheistic gods were not the creators of the universe, nor were they all-powerful or all-knowing.

And whether or not Stalin considered himself immortal, capable of miracles or all-knowing is beside the point, the point is that his followers considered him capable of those things. They definitely considered him all knowing and capable of miracles. In their minds, he was all these things and more. In a totalitarian society, the leader is capable of anything, and the common man is nothing but a tool of the leader. You need to read up on totalitarianism I think.
IoshkaFutz wrote:So the parallel only goes so far... to describe huge worldly power... and it is certainly no excuse to squirm away from the crimes of militant, priest-killing, nun-raping, church-destroying atheism. (Very much like the Muslims BTW) and the parallels between militant atheism (as opposed to the stoic variety) and Islam are many and frightening.
Again, you are describing atheism as if it was the primary ideology of the people who were militant, nun raping, etc and not merely a characteristic of their ideology. This is an extremely dishonest way to behave. Of course the parallels between totalitarian atheism and Islam are many, that's because totalitarian atheistic ideologies and Islam are both murderous and genocidal etc. However, you are continually failing to grasp that while atheism may be a characteristic of these genocidal totalitarian ideologies, it is not responsible for them any more than religion was responsible for the holocaust. Stalin was an atheist and Hitler was a Catholic, but it would be ridiculous to suggest that atheism or Catholicism were directly responsible for their atrocities.
The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent.
- Carl Sagan

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IoshkaFutz
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Re: Religion - the root of all evil???

Post by IoshkaFutz »

I've noticed you intentionally misrepresent your opponent's argument in order to sneak in your dishonesty and make it less obvious.

Okay, let's look at what was said:

I said: But you equate the two (what you call blind mindless belief in God and blind mindless belief in living men) and yet they are not equal or else their results would be equal, instead they are incredibly different.

So one thing is certain, in the "blind and mindless" department, atheism is worse, far worse. If you're gonna be blind and mindless - as mortals often are - choose God.

That much - with the exception of Islam - we can safely say. Somehow - always with the exclusion of Muslims - atheist blindness is more blind and atheist mindlessness more mindless.

Sten says: But you can't make Islam an exception, because Islam is a religious belief. You don't get to say "with the exception of Islam" - just because you're convinced your god is better than theirs.

I answered: Interesting... let's transpose the concept: this is like an anarchist (atheist) telling a Democrat (Catholic) that he's no different than a Nazi (Muslim) inasmuch as both have the vice of governance.

Now Sten says: I never said you were no different from a Muslim. I said your religious belief was in the same category. This is true, as both a Muslim and a Catholic have no evidence for their god, but are convinced not only that their god exists.

But weren't we talking about mass murder / insane murder? The existence or non existence of God's proveability is utterly beside the point. We were talking about groups of people vis-a-vis violence and not logical proofs. I even conceded the blind and mindless for both categories.

The Amish and the Navajos are both religious. Can their penchant for violence be compared - statistically - regardless of the evidence of the God of the Amish or the Spirits of the Navajos?

Erm, I believe so.

Why do you conflate evidence or lack thereof with murderous violence? (I'd be worried about that if I were you).

Are the proponents of string theory violent just because they lack evidence?

Lack of evidence is another matter. I can happily tell you that the Amish and the Quakers, despite their lack of evidence, are dedicated to non-violence. On that front you'll find them doing better than the atheists - including the non-militant kind.

So now please explain to me what being in the same broad category "religion" has to do with the issue.

Can we compare any and all statistics concerning the Jains versus the Sikhs.

Absolutely, just as we can compare the suicide rate of the religiously affiliated with that of the religiously unaffiliated. Or are they automatically invalidated because the religiously affiliated haven't placed a bit of their God inside a petree dish.

Sten, old boy, you're not thinking.
“The ultimate test of a moral society is the kind of world that it leaves to its children.”
Dietrich Bonhoeffer - German Lutheran Pastor and Theologian. His involvement in a plot to overthrow Adolf Hitler led to his imprisonment and execution. 1906-1945

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Sten
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Re: Religion - the root of all evil???

Post by Sten »

IoshkaFutz wrote:But weren't we talking about mass murder / insane murder? The existence or non existence of God's proveability is utterly beside the point. We were talking about groups of people vis-a-vis violence and not logical proofs. I even conceded the blind and mindless for both categories.
The existence of god's provability is what defines religious belief, and is what puts you as a theist in the same category as a Muslim. You were saying "with the exclusion of Muslims, atheist blindness is worse etc". I was saying you don't get to exclude Muslims. If atheists are worse with the exclusion of Muslims, that means theism is worse if you don't exclude Muslims. I've already explained why you don't get to exclude Muslims. Therefore theism is worse.
IoshkaFutz wrote:The Amish and the Navajos are both religious. Can their penchant for violence be compared - statistically - regardless of the evidence of the God of the Amish or the Spirits of the Navajos?

Erm, I believe so.

Why do you conflate evidence or lack thereof with murderous violence? (I'd be worried about that if I were you).

Are the proponents of string theory violent just because they lack evidence?
Why do you conflate atheism with murderous violence?
IoshkaFutz wrote:Lack of evidence is another matter. I can happily tell you that the Amish and the Quakers, despite their lack of evidence, are dedicated to non-violence. On that front you'll find them doing better than the atheists - including the non-militant kind.
Lol, maybe with non-violence but not with hygiene, life expectancy, equality of sexes, etc.
IoshkaFutz wrote:So now please explain to me what being in the same broad category "religion" has to do with the issue.
You are the one trying to make it a theism vs atheism issue, not me, so don't get all defensive. You were trying to equate atheism with genocidal regimes, to the flavor of almost inferring that I myself was murderous or genocidal. I've seen you call Bunny a Stalinist. Religion has as much to do with the issue as atheism, as the religious fervor with which Maoists or Stalinists believed in their leader was undeniable. Although atheistic by definition, it was religious in its character.
IoshkaFutz wrote:Can we compare any and all statistics concerning the Jains versus the Sikhs.

Absolutely, just as we can compare the suicide rate of the religiously affiliated with that of the religiously unaffiliated. Or are they automatically invalidated because the religiously affiliated haven't placed a bit of their God inside a petree dish.

Sten, old boy, you're not thinking.
Don't insult me. You change your entire contention and then accuse me of not thinking, followed by an incoherent babble about a petri dish? Goddamn but debating with you is frustrating.
The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent.
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Re: Religion - the root of all evil???

Post by IoshkaFutz »

The existence of god's provability is what defines religious belief, and is what puts you as a theist in the same category as a Muslim. You were saying "with the exclusion of Muslims, atheist blindness is worse etc". I was saying you don't get to exclude Muslims. If atheists are worse with the exclusion of Muslims, that means theism is worse if you don't exclude Muslims. I've already explained why you don't get to exclude Muslims. Therefore theism is worse.

Ciao Sten,

I never excluded Muslims from the category of religion (though very much could be said about that). Even in the bit with the statistics I quoted from the "Irrational Atheist", Islamics are dutifully included in the 6.92% of religious based wars. However, the same article also stated that about half of those religious wars were started by Muslims (though theirs is the most recent religion and the info was compiled starting from 3000 BC).

Actually, even including them, little changes vis-a-vis the statistics regarding the crimes (measured by body counts) committed by avowed and militant atheists.

You have made your obsession "there is no proof of God" central to the discussion, whereas I have remained faithful (though contrary) to the theme of the thread: "Religion... the root of all evil?"

To simplify matters, I equated "body count" with evil (though I say that it's not nearly that neat and easy) and I have shown that the irreligious have been exceedingly more violent and so clearly "religion is not the root of all evil" (undoubtedly the love of money and power is the better answer).

Belonging to the same broad category does not disallow one from saying "with the exclusion of" a group of the same broad category.

For example, if the discussion had been about the use of automobiles, what law of logic would disallow me from saying "the religious use them them with roughly the same enthusiasm as the irreligious... with the exception of the Amish?"

They are certainly religious, they are Christians, but as Muslims have the concept of violence (Jihad) in their theology and the Jews have the concept of race in theirs, the Amish have the nearly wholesale shunning of modern technology.

The exception vis-a-vis the question being considered (religion and automobiles) is duly noted and the conclusion "the religious have the same enthusiasm for automobiles as the irreligious... with the exception of the Amish" truthfully stands. In fact, by taking note of the exception, it stands with more truth inasmuch as it is more precise than merely stating: "the religious have the same enthusiasm for automobiles as the irreligious..." The other statement is more precise.

Then talk about the Amish belonging to the same Category as Catholics or Hindus, is purely and utterly irrelevant... except for people with other agendas ("there is no rational proof of God") such as yourself.

However, you will notice that you have no trouble broadening categories when it comes to religions (to arrive at absurd conclusions), whereas you will not do it for Atheists.

In both instances broadening categories to fit ones pet agenda is wrong. I drew a distinction between militant atheism and "stoic" atheism... nevertheless, the greatest mass murderers in the world have been avowed atheists.
IoshkaFutz wrote:The Amish and the Navajos are both religious. Can their penchant for violence be compared -statistically - regardless of the evidence of the God of the Amish or the Spirits of the Navajos?

Erm, I believe so.

Why do you conflate evidence or lack thereof with murderous violence? (I'd be worried about that if I were you).

Are the proponents of string theory violent just because they lack evidence?
Why do you conflate atheism with murderous violence?

Because though no one's pulpit is squeaky clean, avowed atheists have been responsible for the world's greatest massacres. Does that mean that all atheists are murderers? Surely not. But it certainly gives atheists food for thought when they come out with threads entitled "Religion... the root of all evil???"

Lol, maybe with non-violence but not with hygiene, life expectancy, equality of sexes, etc.

The Amish are a funny group. For example they have no qualms about using modern pesticides. I don't know about their hygene. It's probably better than some groups and worse than others. I do remember reading awhile back that their life expectancy is roughly equal to that of most Americans. (Lots of exercise, fresh air, early to bed and early to rise), etc.

Here...

http://www.amish.net/faq.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Question: What is the average life expectancy of Amish men and women and what is the number one cause of death in the Amish communities?

Answer: It is the same as for all persons in the United States, no different than for other groups of people. Answer coordinated by THE BUDGET [Editor: According to US Government Statistics, the average life expectancy for Caucasian men is 74.3 and for Caucasian women is 79.9. The leading cause of death is heart disease.]
IoshkaFutz wrote:So now please explain to me what being in the same broad category "religion" has to do with the issue.
You are the one trying to make it a theism vs atheism issue, not me, so don't get all defensive.

Dear Sten, look up from the keyboard to the top of your screen and tell me what you read. Does it say "Religion the root of all evil???" or does it say "The Dutch make lousy Lasagne?"

You were trying to equate atheism with genocidal regimes, to the flavor of almost inferring that I myself was murderous or genocidal.

I frankly think that given power, your outlook would create a very harsh and scary society. I wouldn't say genocidal, but certainly harsh and undemocratic.

However - and most happily - the discussion is not about you. For me you are Sten the forummer, a saint among saints. Who you are, what you do, what your job is, is irrelevant. If not a saint among saints, you are - to the best of my hot-tempered abilities - the Right Honorable Sten, even though I think your opinions stink (as I'm sure you think mine do).

I've seen you call Bunny a Stalinist.

Yes, because I posted a very long (my apologies to Cutecoot) article written by a Jew agnostic skeptic of both Darwinism and ID and got accused of "...Ioshka would rather reject this and - in the spirit of retrogressive Medievalism - make common cause with the pre-Vesalius anti-scientific proponents of Creationism/Intelligent Design....."

And then Wizard and Cutecoot went on to accuse me of Searching for an anti-evolutionary mathematician just "to get even" with SOT who is a mathematician.

What's more Cutecoot called Berlinski and "obscurantist," whereas the man is quite brilliant and exceedingly fair. Here, follow this link and read.

http://www.discovery.org/a/4491" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He fairly prints all the objections to his essay, (including those from the likes of H. ALLEN ORR, RICHARD DAWKINS, DANIEL C. DENNETT, ARTHUR M. SHAPIRO, etc) and then answers them. You tell me if you see an obscurantist.

Such labels, such putting ones motives on trial, such accusastions of "making common cause" closely resemble the methods used in Stalin's kangaroo courts.

Furthermore read Psycho Bunny's post regarding me in this thread. He says "I was unsure - but Ioshka has made my decision for me - religion rots the brain."

I couldn't help wondering about the very strange logic.

Retorical question (Statement): "religion... the root of all evil????"

IoshkaFutz: not true, according to scholars only 6.92% of wars were religious in nature.

Bunny's reaction: I wasn't sure but after IoshkaFutz's post now I know that religion rots the brain.

Consideration: Ioshkafutz brought in outside scholarship tending to DISPROVE that religion is the prime cause of war and yet for Bunny that was the PROOF he needed to know that religion rots the brain!

We must wonder: Had I confirmed the thread's hypothesis "Religion is indeed the root of all evil" then I suppose Psycho Bunny would have said: "I was unsure, but now thanks to IoshkaFutz, I know that religion DOESN'T rot the brain, because he confirmed to me that religion is indeed the root of all evil!"

Nice logic, eh? But perhaps something escapes me.

Religion has as much to do with the issue as atheism, as the religious fervor with which Maoists or Stalinists believed in their leader was undeniable.

LOL. Yes, fervor. Like my next door neighbor's fervor for Roma soccer club. Or the whole country's fervor when Italy won the world cup.

I wonder: for all the Neapolitans loved Maradona, for all their fervor (after Naples won the national cup, fans strung a banner across the entrance to the city cemetery saying: "Oh what you missed!") - did they truly deify him?

Was it truly religious in character or only in a poetic sense? There are some analogies. There's a whole generation of kids called "Diego Armando" in Naples (as there are plenty of elderly men called "Benito" in Italy). But it's surely a different kind of fervor. Going to church, generally a quiet place, where (in the case of Catholics) a ritual is re-enacted, followed by a droning sermon, is rather different than cheering at a stadium.

Now as an atheist, you are free to choose your gods to match any kind of fervor. But I did say "God as commonly conceived." So to be more precise we should ask: did the Stalinists adore Stalin the way the Russian people traditionally adored God as conceived by the Orthodox Church?

The answer is a resounding No. That God is omnipotent, (not just able to enforce successful five year plans, but billion year plans). He fears nothing, (certainly not the Wehrmacht or the likes of a Trotsky) He is eternal (Stalin died of a stroke. There has been speculation that he was poisoned by Beria - but he was in his 70s and a heavy smoker).

I'm not sure whether God is a heavy smoker. Perhaps for the macumba religionists he's a lover of cigars and rhum, but I doubt it for the Russian Orthodox.

Even the fervor and enthusiasm is different. Quiet and generally prayerful, more personal than social. Connected not only to the present and future, but also the past. Loving of God, but also of his son Jesus and all the many saints and very much, Mary, the mother of Jesus.

I'm afraid the parallels are not enough. Political fervor is not the same thing as religion.

And militant atheist mindlessness is indeed more mindless than theist mindlessness (with the exception of Islam) because theists believe that they have - and are answerable to - a higher authority.

I've already explained the reasons for the Islamic exception on another thread.

/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=3646&p=61412&hili ... eat#p61412" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
IoshkaFutz wrote:
Sten, old boy, you're not thinking.
Don't insult me. You change your entire contention and then accuse me of not thinking, followed by an incoherent babble about a petri dish? Goddamn but debating with you is frustrating.

Telling you that you're not thinking is not an insult. If it were what would be the use of FFI? Well at least I tried to explain why your thinking was wrong.

As for the petree dish, it was a way of saying that then you would at last have the evidence you needed to believe in God.
“The ultimate test of a moral society is the kind of world that it leaves to its children.”
Dietrich Bonhoeffer - German Lutheran Pastor and Theologian. His involvement in a plot to overthrow Adolf Hitler led to his imprisonment and execution. 1906-1945

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Re: Religion - the root of all evil???

Post by joseph »

bcbob wrote:
Question - Is religion the root of all evil?

Nearly every war is born from disagreement of religious beliefs or at best religion is used as the excuse.

If religion did not exist would the world be a peaceful place?

i doubt it, i reckon that if religion did not exist then we would not be any different...we would just find another reason for fighting.
Please keep it real.

The most deadly wars of the 20th century were not religious wars. Religion had nothing to do with them.

In the last 100 years, more people were killed in the secular wars of Atheist mentality, then all the religious wars in past 2000 thousand years combined.

Atheists are most efficient at killing humans.

:(
Last edited by joseph on Sat Sep 19, 2009 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Marie
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Re: Religion - the root of all evil???

Post by Marie »

joseph wrote:
bcbob wrote:
Question - Is religion the root of all evil?

Nearly every war is born from disagreement of religious beliefs or at best religion is used as the excuse.

If religion did not exist would the world be a peaceful place?

i doubt it, i reckon that if religion did not exist then we would not be any different...we would just find another reason for fighting.
Please keep it real.

The most deadly wars of the 21th century were not religious. Religion had nothing to do with them.
In the last 100 years, more people were killed in the secular wars of Atheist mentality, then all the religious wars in past 2000 thousand years combined.

Atheists are most efficient at killing humans.

:(
Athiests are nothing in comparison with the Muslims.

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Re: Religion - the root of all evil???

Post by bcbob »

Yohan wrote:
bcbob wrote:Question - Is religion the root of all evil?

Nearly every war is born from disagreement of religious beliefs or at best religion is used as the excuse. If religion did not exist would the world be a peaceful place?

i doubt it, i reckon that if religion did not exist then we would not be any different...we would just find another reason for fighting.
Religions? Not necessarily.
Examples:
Hitler, Stalin, Mao are the modern day examples.
Genghis Khan, Attila
Other historic and modern examples: Tribal, ethnic warfare, slavery, colonization and so on.

ok so lets simplify it. (as some peoples answers need an hr to read and another 2-3 just to comprehend. lol) anyway Religion is a belief this is why opinions are different. So lets say;

Is 'belief' the root of all evil??? now this would be even harder to argue against

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Re: Religion - the root of all evil???

Post by IoshkaFutz »

Is 'belief' the root of all evil??? now this would be even harder to argue against

Absolutely not.
“The ultimate test of a moral society is the kind of world that it leaves to its children.”
Dietrich Bonhoeffer - German Lutheran Pastor and Theologian. His involvement in a plot to overthrow Adolf Hitler led to his imprisonment and execution. 1906-1945

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Re: Religion - the root of all evil???

Post by bcbob »

IoshkaFutz wrote:Is 'belief' the root of all evil??? now this would be even harder to argue against

Absolutely not.

solid argument...who could argue

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Re: Religion - the root of all evil???

Post by expozIslam »

bcbob wrote:
IoshkaFutz wrote:Is 'belief' the root of all evil??? now this would be even harder to argue against

Absolutely not.

solid argument...who could argue
yes, belief is the root of lot of evil when that belief leads you to think that your beliefs is the only true belief and all other beliefs are false.
“The truth, of course, is that a billion falsehoods told a billion times by a billion people are still false.”

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Re: Religion - the root of all evil???

Post by Yohan »

bcbob wrote:Is 'belief' the root of all evil??? now this would be even harder to argue against
Normal beliefs are not, but dogmatic beliefs make one blind, and this could lead to evil IF conditions are right.

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Re: Religion - the root of all evil???

Post by RichardTheLionheart »

joseph wrote:
bcbob wrote:
Question - Is religion the root of all evil?

Nearly every war is born from disagreement of religious beliefs or at best religion is used as the excuse.

If religion did not exist would the world be a peaceful place?

i doubt it, i reckon that if religion did not exist then we would not be any different...we would just find another reason for fighting.
Please keep it real.

The most deadly wars of the 21th century were not religious. Religion had nothing to do with them.
In the last 100 years, more people were killed in the secular wars of Atheist mentality, then all the religious wars in past 2000 thousand years combined.

Atheists are most efficient at killing humans.

:(
So don't threaten Jihad on us or else . :flamethrower:

On a serious note, the death toll in recent wars is down to the technology available post-Idustrial revolution. If such mechanised industrial weaponary had been avaialable to earlier people's the death toll of those wars would have been higher. :roll:
Ex-Muslims needed to answer my questions: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=4519 Serious posts only.

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IoshkaFutz
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Re: Religion - the root of all evil???

Post by IoshkaFutz »

bcbob wrote:
IoshkaFutz wrote:Is 'belief' the root of all evil??? now this would be even harder to argue against

Absolutely not.

solid argument...who could argue
You said ALL evil. If I don't believe in the sacredness or anyhow intrinsic worthiness of human life, all other beliefs or whims can have a field day, even those of such luminaries as a Bertrand Russell. Belief unto itself is not good or evil. "What is believed," the content is what matters. Without belief "evil" itself has no real meaning. How (and why) should I believe something is evil, let alone the "root of ALL evil" if I don't have a credo of what constitutes evil? You might as well say that movement is the root of ALL evil, or being alive (the dead can do no purposeful evil). The question is foolish. It is also a self-consuming vortex: "I believe that belief is the root of all evil." Silly, self-negating.
“The ultimate test of a moral society is the kind of world that it leaves to its children.”
Dietrich Bonhoeffer - German Lutheran Pastor and Theologian. His involvement in a plot to overthrow Adolf Hitler led to his imprisonment and execution. 1906-1945

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Re: Religion - the root of all evil???

Post by Nosuperstition »

Richard_the Lion heart wrote:On a serious note, the death toll in recent wars is down to the technology available post-Idustrial revolution. If such mechanised industrial weaponary had been avaialable to earlier people's the death toll of those wars would have been higher.
I too said the same in 2004 forum.In my childhood,I saw a Telugu film with some Christian theme.Actress Sarada donned some pious Christian role and Nutan Prasad donned the avatar of Satan.The villain a.k.a Satan gives gun to his follower who is repeatedly called 'sisuvaa' or infant and says that it will be called gun in the days to come and many people will be killed by it.Little did I realise that it is the very hated science that saved Christianity and helped Western powers colonise the world.A forum member said that we have enough bullets to kill all muslims in this world,but that is uncivilised and that is why they are desisting.Also on God T.V a funny and at times serious looking evangelist said that we have the power to turn Arabia into sheets of glass but that is uncivilised.
Last edited by Nosuperstition on Sat Sep 26, 2009 5:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
palli or halli in Dravidian languages means a village just like gaav in Aryan languages means a village.palli or halli in Aryan Mauryan Imperial era around 200 B.C designates a tribal hamlet.So many of those in South India are indeed descendants of tribals and are still keeping up that heritage.

Nosuperstition
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Re: Religion - the root of all evil???

Post by Nosuperstition »

IoshkaFutz wrote:
sword_of_truth wrote:You can't compare numbers because there was a smaller population during the time of the Spanish Inquisition. You have to look at proportion.

In light of its nightmarish reputation, it will surely surprise those who believe that millions of people died in the Spanish Inquisition to learn that throughout the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, less than three people per year were sentenced to death by the Inquisition throughout the Spanish empire, which ranged from Spain to Sicily and Peru.23 Secular historians given access to the Vatican’s archives in 1998 discovered that of the 44,674 individuals tried between 1540 and 1700, only 804 were recorded as being relictus culiae saeculari.24 The 763-page report indicates that only one percent of the 125,000 trials recorded over the entire inquisition ultimately resulted in execution by the secular authority, which means that throughout its infamous 345-year history,25 the dread Spanish Inquisition was less than one-fourteenth as deadly on an annual basis as children’s bicycles.

Image

SOT says you have to look at the proportion. By all means go right ahead... and be sure to consider the smaller population, For all its worth the Spanish empireh ranged from Spain to Sicily and Peru.
The Chrisitian inquisition in Goa is one of the greatest tragedies in Human history. To understand more about the terrible genocide read this book 'Goa Inquisition - by Priolkar, A. K.' ( Voice of Delhi, 1991. - xii, 109p. Reprint. First published by the author, 1961. ISBN: x-18-010685-5 )

It gives a chiiling account of the horrible human rights violation commited by the Christians on Hindus. The kind of tortures that Fransisco de Xavier and his friends Loyola and Alfonso de Albuquerque commited on the Hindus of the Konkan coast especially on the Hindu women, would make even Hitler weep with pain. These three alone were responsible for the death of over 100,000 Hindus for the sake of 1 Jesus Christ.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum2/viewtopic.php?t=2325" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Very much the same as Bahmani Sultans who killed 1,00,000 Hindus a year as and when they felt that Hindus need to be taught a lesson.
palli or halli in Dravidian languages means a village just like gaav in Aryan languages means a village.palli or halli in Aryan Mauryan Imperial era around 200 B.C designates a tribal hamlet.So many of those in South India are indeed descendants of tribals and are still keeping up that heritage.

bcbob
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Re: Religion - the root of all evil???

Post by bcbob »

IoshkaFutz wrote:
bcbob wrote:
IoshkaFutz wrote:Is 'belief' the root of all evil??? now this would be even harder to argue against

Absolutely not.

solid argument...who could argue
You said ALL evil. If I don't believe in the sacredness or anyhow intrinsic worthiness of human life, all other beliefs or whims can have a field day, even those of such luminaries as a Bertrand Russell. Belief unto itself is not good or evil. "What is believed," the content is what matters. Without belief "evil" itself has no real meaning. How (and why) should I believe something is evil, let alone the "root of ALL evil" if I don't have a credo of what constitutes evil? You might as well say that movement is the root of ALL evil, or being alive (the dead can do no purposeful evil). The question is foolish. It is also a self-consuming vortex: "I believe that belief is the root of all evil." Silly, self-negating.
Your right the question is stupid, but no more so than the answers.

You all make me laugh with your self opinionated comments. Its like a big pissing contest to see who can write the most sh!t and use the most complicated sentences, but hey if it makes you happy...who am i to argue.

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IoshkaFutz
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Re: Religion - the root of all evil???

Post by IoshkaFutz »

bcbob wrote:
Your right the question is stupid, but no more so than the answers.

You all make me laugh with your self opinionated comments. Its like a big pissing contest to see who can write the most sh!t and use the most complicated sentences, but hey if it makes you happy...who am i to argue.
Ciao bcbob,

If you ask a question, expect answers. Expect different opinions. Debate. What's so strange and laughable about that? Seems perfectly normal.

Well anyway, since we ALL made you laugh, then thank us ALL for making YOU happy.

Here are six ways mushrooms will save the world

“The ultimate test of a moral society is the kind of world that it leaves to its children.”
Dietrich Bonhoeffer - German Lutheran Pastor and Theologian. His involvement in a plot to overthrow Adolf Hitler led to his imprisonment and execution. 1906-1945

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gupsfu
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Re: Religion - the root of all evil???

Post by gupsfu »

bcbob wrote:Question - Is religion the root of all evil?

Nearly every war is born from disagreement of religious beliefs or at best religion is used as the excuse. If religion did not exist would the world be a peaceful place?

i doubt it, i reckon that if religion did not exist then we would not be any different...we would just find another reason for fighting.
I'm not sure if religion is the root of all evil, but that statement certainly has some merits.

Any ideology, be it religious or political, that promotes non-thinking and asks for blind faith/allegiance from its followers is extremely dangerous.

When a person allows his blind faith to override his own moral conscience, it would make it much easier for him to perpetrate unspeakable evil.
"Is there anybody out there? Just nod if you can hear me." ~ Roger Waters

Nosuperstition
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Re: Religion - the root of all evil???

Post by Nosuperstition »

viewtopic.php?f=33&t=3971&p=68140#p68140" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
diotima64 wrote:It is estimated that millions of women were burned as witches (by the worldly authorities, not the church, just to clear that up)...but it isn´t true. Recent research shows the number to be closer to 50.000 in all of Europe an dover several hundred years -still bad, but not the same.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewt ... c&start=15" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Myridden Emmys wrote: I was lucky...just happened to have The Origins of the Inquisition in Fifteenth Century Spain, by Benzion Netanyahu. New York: Random House, 1995. on the bookshelf.

A good source for further, and sometimes opposing, views is to run a search for inquisition at http://www.directoryspain.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What I find interesting is that the Inquisition still exists to this day rebranded by Pope Paul VI In 1965 as the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith. It's not that long ago that it branded Yoga as a tool of the Devil.
While practicing Yoga,if the verses that praise the sun god or Mitra are removed,then Yoga does not become unChristian.Yoga being unchristian was also the opinion of Ron Hembre of Canada who said that such forms of
meditations of the Eastern faiths attempt to divert attention from God and hence must be discarded.

According to what I heard Yoga improves concentration levels of an individual.The martial arts of China were originally from India.They were taught there by Budhdhist monks of India.These also require a high level of concentration.Might be the church does not want Easterners to be granted their due.
palli or halli in Dravidian languages means a village just like gaav in Aryan languages means a village.palli or halli in Aryan Mauryan Imperial era around 200 B.C designates a tribal hamlet.So many of those in South India are indeed descendants of tribals and are still keeping up that heritage.

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IoshkaFutz
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Re: Religion - the root of all evil???

Post by IoshkaFutz »

The church's view of yoga as a means for relaxation or to improve concentration is about the same as her view for strawberries to make the taste buds tingle. But if from a purely physical thing it becomes an ideology and enters the moral sphere, then she makes objections where she considers matters objectionable.

Might be the church does not want Easterners to be granted their due.

You will find that Eastern religions are the ones that don't give Eastern men and women their due... and not by a long shot. Castes, cow veneration, suttee, ancestor veneration, or in the case of Islam insane-belief... do NOT give any man, no matter his geographical location, his due. No religion has given man his due better than Christianity. What is man's due? Morality and reason and a certain equality (not to be mistaken for today's egalitarianism).
“The ultimate test of a moral society is the kind of world that it leaves to its children.”
Dietrich Bonhoeffer - German Lutheran Pastor and Theologian. His involvement in a plot to overthrow Adolf Hitler led to his imprisonment and execution. 1906-1945

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