ISRAELIS ARE INVITED TO VIST...............MEKKAH

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manfred
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Re: ISRAELIS ARE INVITED TO VIST...............MEKKAH

Post by manfred »

SAM wrote:
manfred wrote:Dear SAM, the place for crazy conspiracy theories and other tin foil hat stuff, including quotes from Osama Bin Laden is the SOAPBOX. Please put it there. I have better things to do than to tidy up after you.
That's Avi's words in his book. You must have a hard time accepting it. :lol: :roflmao:
SAM, it amazes me that you are fond of this crackpot stuff.
There is no evidence at all that Moses or any other biblical person ever went to Arabia, let alone Mecca. That place was founded around 400 AD, long after all biblical texts were written.

He proposes his weird stuff to justify an invasion of Arabia by Israel. So I already accepted the book as what it is, a piece of crazy pseudo science that does not stand up to 3 seconds of scrutiny and a book that is an incitement to an unjust war.

That is your source for Moses and the Kaaba. I expect a LOT better from you.
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manfred
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Re: ISRAELIS ARE INVITED TO VIST...............MEKKAH

Post by manfred »

takeiteasynow wrote:Dedan was a trading city and others had stations there, bringing there Gods along. What Dedanaitic inscriptions tell us that they had one god - the one from the thickened bush, an epithet - and some kind of grain festival, at a certain month and certain day. Sound a bit like the holiday of unleavened bread...
Yes, that is what I thought. But this is true of most places in the region, right? (one or just very few deities, plus some more for the visiting folk) Eventually, one of two things happen, either the "other" deities become part of a pantheon, or they get kicked out and one remains. What is interesting about Dedan, it is at the intermediate stage.

Also, almost every religion tradition has a form of a harvest festival, if agriculture was in any way important. So this does not seem to be very remarkable.
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Takeiteasynow
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Re: ISRAELIS ARE INVITED TO VIST...............MEKKAH

Post by Takeiteasynow »

Agree. Although the linguistical and epigraphical pipelines connect Dedan with the Near East (lh, il, el etc) and the name Aron is here quite common.

The last and removed post from Sam was - unintentionally of course - brilliant. Phylacteries or tefillin can indeed be found in Ethiopia among the Community of Beta Israel which is amazing by itself. Even more amazing is that their religious terminology for core concepts equals that of the Nabataeans, they only started using terms like Ayhud in the 20th century and that their cultic calendar is that of Petra.

I'm astonished....
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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manfred
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Re: ISRAELIS ARE INVITED TO VIST...............MEKKAH

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You mean the one where he cannot decide if a תְּפִלִּין (tefalin) is really the Kaaba because it is black and a cube shape, or a dildo strapped to the forehead? That one?

Well, "brilliant" is not exactly the description that first springs to mind. If you want it back, no problem. currently found in the soapbox.

The tefalin is not as such mentioned in the bible, there is a different word: "totafot". This is not proper Hebrew but an Egyptian loan word. It means broadly "sign". It's exact shape will of course have undergone some development, but certainly by the time the writers of Exodus put pen to papyrus, it was already in use.

So this "sign" between the eyes the bible speaks of clearly has considerable age. If it is found in other places, we need to work out which is older.
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Takeiteasynow
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Re: ISRAELIS ARE INVITED TO VIST...............MEKKAH

Post by Takeiteasynow »

No, you can leave it in the soapbox. I don't care for tefalin or phylacteries - probably adopted by the Beta Israel in the 19th century.

Whilst browsing I read that this community in Ethiopia uses Nabataean Aramaic words like masgid (place of worship) sgd (to prostate), now a national holiday in Israel or bt mqds (holy house).
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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Hombre
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Re: ISRAELIS ARE INVITED TO VIST...............MEKKAH

Post by Hombre »

SAM wrote:In Return to Mecca, Avi Lipkin reviews the biblical history of Mecca and Medina and the Israelites' sojourn in the Arabian desert for 38 years followed by two years in the deserts just to the East of the Jordan River.

He uses historical texts from Josephus as well from Greek and Roman authors from 2,000-2,300 years ago about the Israelite Exodus from Egypt and analyzes the Bible to show how the Israelites wandered in the Arabian peninsula for these years. :library:
The Jewish History spans is vast & complex. It spans over 3500 years written in vast volume to which the 18 books making the Tanach (HB) is just one part - along with the Jewish Halacha & the Talmud.

One doubts that with mere 3 years in theological studies - how would anyone consider such person "an expert" on Jewish History. After all, there are dozens of Israeli scholars who not only had spent their life time studying events in the bible - also traveled & researched their findings & published them to the world for rigorous peer review.

Dennis Avi Lipkin is an Israeli / American who thinks he knows all there is to know about the Jewish History. He writes his opinion on what he THINKS how events had happened 3000 years ago.

Much like that Hindu immigrant to US & self-proclaimed conservative dude named Danish D'Sousa. His specialty? bash democrats & liberals. why? because it is more profitable & easier to dup those poorly informed white Christians then others. He also lectures & make movies - only about the democrats.

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manfred
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Re: ISRAELIS ARE INVITED TO VIST...............MEKKAH

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Hi Hombre, For some reason there is no English wiki page on him, but a German one:
Lipkin wuchs im Bundesstaat New York auf, wurde schon früh zum Anhänger revisionistisch-zionistischer Überzeugungen und wanderte 1968 im Alter von 19 Jahren nach Israel aus. Er studierte Sowjetologie, Hispanistik und Lateinamerikakunde in New York und an der Hebräischen Universität in Jerusalem (Abschluss dort 1973). Zwischen 1972 und 1989 war er in unterschiedlicher Intensität für die IDF als Offizier (letzter Dienstgrad Major) tätig und diente u. a. als Militärsprecher bzw. in der Kommunikationsabteilung. Gleichzeitig war er von Jerusalem aus als Geschäftsmann, u. a. auch als Immobilienmakler, in verschiedenen Bereichen tätig.

1988 war er für einige Monate Teil des erfolgreichen Likud-Wahlkampfteams und übersetzte u. a. Kampagnen-Material ins Englische und Spanische. Von 1989 bis 1990 arbeitete er in der Nachrichtenabteilung der Pressestelle des israelischen Premierministers Jitzchak Schamir. 1990 begann er in den USA seine Vortragstätigkeit in christlichen Kirchen, in Synagogen und trat in Radio- und Fernsehsendungen auf.

Von 1991 bis 1993 absolvierte er ein Ergänzungsstudium an einem Jüdisch-Theologischen Seminar, um sich ab 1994 erneut ganz seiner Vortragstätigkeit zu widmen.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avi_Lipkin" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is what it says:
Lipkin grew up in the state of New York, became a follower of revisionist-Zionist beliefs at an early age and emigrated to Israel in 1968 at the age of 19. He studied Sovietology, Hispanic Studies and Latin American Studies in New York and at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem (he graduated there in 1973). Between 1972 and 1989 he worked for the IDF in various positions as an officer (last rank major) and among other things as a military spokesman or in the communications department. At the same time he was a businessman based in Jerusalem, and also active as a real estate agent in various areas.

In 1988 he was part of the successful Likud campaign team for several months. and among other things translated Campaign material into English and Spanish. From 1989 to 1990 he worked in the news department of the Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir's press office. In 1990 he began lecturing in Christian churches and synagogues in the United States and appeared on radio and television programs.

From 1991 to 1993 he completed a supplementary course at a Jewish theological seminar in order to devote himself again entirely to his lecturing work from 1994.
So he has studied a very short theology course (2 years)... (to teach religious studies in a school, the minimum is 4 years, to be a priest 7 years, to be a bishop you need an additional doctorate. ) Also, theological studies contain some history and historical methods, but that is not the main emphasis.

He is mostly a modern language specialist, with a knowledge in Russian history in the 20th century, and a bit of religious studies.

What is most worrying about him as a source is that he is a "revisionist", i.e. someone who is rewriting aspects of Jewish history for political reasons. He said that Israel should include Sinai and Iraq, and everything in between, including all of Arabia, and his curious tale of Moses in Mecca is part of that picture.

So, to be honest, I pay no attention to him.
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Hombre
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Re: ISRAELIS ARE INVITED TO VIST...............MEKKAH

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manfred wrote: So he has studied a very short theology course (2years)... (to teach religious studies in a school, the minimum is 4 years, to be a priest 7 years, to be a bishop you need an addition doctorate. Also theological studies contain some history and historical methods, but that is not the main emphasis.

He is mostly a modern language specialist, with a knowledge in Russian history in the 20th century, and a bit of religious studies.

What is most worrying about him as a source is that he is a "revisionist", i.e. someone who is rewriting aspects of Jewish history political reasons. He said that Israel should include Sinai and Iraq, and everything in between, including all of Arabia, and his curious tale of Moses in Mecca is part of that picture.

So, to be honest, I pay no attention to him.
Exactly.
He has his own website
https://www.avilipkin.net/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: ISRAELIS ARE INVITED TO VIST...............MEKKAH

Post by Hombre »

SAM wrote:Hag in Hebrew means a holiday or going around in circle.
Hag (חג) Since modern Hebrew is published w/o the vowels, its hard for people like you to know that this combination come in two forms & words
Hag (sounds like "act") - Holiday
Haag (sounds like "bar") - hover above.

Maybe next time make sure you understand the full meaning of Hebrew names - before you make a spectacle of yourself.

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manfred
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Re: ISRAELIS ARE INVITED TO VIST...............MEKKAH

Post by manfred »

Hombre, is it a common thing in Israel, the idea of expanding the country somehow? I have never met people like that, but I have not been to Israel in a while...

Personally I think a man like Lipkin fuels hamas...
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Re: ISRAELIS ARE INVITED TO VIST...............MEKKAH

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manfred wrote:Hombre, is it a common thing in Israel, the idea of expanding the country somehow? I have never met people like that, but I have not been to Israel in a while...

Personally I think a man like Lipkin fuels hamas...
Indeed he does that. Otherwise, Lipkin follows the same pattern used by opportunist like Iyn Rand, Danish DeSousa & others. They approach their theories as a commodity traded in public arena. They find a need in the market & try to fill it with their own "product".

In this case, Lipkin has introduced theories which counter the accepted norms (location of Mt. Sinai) then find an audience (Muslims) who is willing to listen & buy his products (books & films).

As I wrote earlier, DeSousa is another unscrupulous shady character who fond large segment of White-conservative American who are willing to buy his virulent anti-democrat anti-liberal garbage.

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Re: ISRAELIS ARE INVITED TO VIST...............MEKKAH

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I would have thought as a former Israeli soldier he would think about what his theories may do....
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Hombre
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Re: ISRAELIS ARE INVITED TO VIST...............MEKKAH

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manfred wrote:I would have thought as a former Israeli soldier he would think about what his theories may do....
You are right, I thought too. Who knows.?
I never heard of him before.

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Re: ISRAELIS ARE INVITED TO VIST...............MEKKAH

Post by Takeiteasynow »

Manfred wrote:As far as I remember, and that is a bit vauge, religion of the Liyan, was "almost" monotheistic, but there were other deities worshippped too, there was an influence from Yemen I think. Wadd the snake god?
We finally found the origin of the copper ore imported by the Mineans from Yemen. It's from the southern Sinai (and Negev) so Wadd is Yah and Wadd is Qos. Yah is Shalim and took his place as a god in the Canaanite religion pantheon and thus became associated with Ashera. A simple data model that matches with the theological, archeological and epigrahical one.

Even the Mineans had some kind of monotheistic religion - seems that the Sinai was the monotheist factory of the Near East - just follow the copper.
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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Re: ISRAELIS ARE INVITED TO VIST...............MEKKAH

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King Salomon Mines are located in area called "Timnaa" in sountern area of Negev region about 20miile north of city of Eilat.

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Takeiteasynow
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Re: ISRAELIS ARE INVITED TO VIST...............MEKKAH

Post by Takeiteasynow »

Hombre wrote:King Salomon Mines are located in area called "Timnaa" in sountern area of Negev region about 20miile north of city of Eilat.
It would be great if archeology produced references to Salomon or the House of David as it would link the Hijaz and even Yemen to Judea instantly. It seems that this matter needs a different approach - the House of David (byt dwd) can also be rendered as byt d'w'd(d) meaning something as the "House of the Beloved (eternal father/uncle)" from Amorite root for god (dd) which can be found anywhere throughout the Middle East.
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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Re: ISRAELIS ARE INVITED TO VIST...............MEKKAH

Post by manfred »

There isn't much, but there is some archaeological evidence:

https://www.livescience.com/51223-king- ... vered.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The kings of Israel generally were not like the Pharaohs who used buildings to make sure they are remembered (or in some cases, even changed inscriptions to make it look they built that....)
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Takeiteasynow
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Re: ISRAELIS ARE INVITED TO VIST...............MEKKAH

Post by Takeiteasynow »

Very interesting. Unfortunately the article doesn't mention if Khirbet Qeiyafa had a temple complex.

This found may relate with the temple recently excavated at Tel Mosa that matches the descriptions of Solomon's temple and the mentioning of The House of "D'WD" in the Mesha Stele. The Two Temples near and at the modern site of Jerusalem would be the easiest explanation for 2 religions fusing. Perhaps something like Canaanite Shalim (Tel Mosa) and Proto-Hebrew Ur (Jerusalem).
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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Re: ISRAELIS ARE INVITED TO VIST...............MEKKAH

Post by Hombre »

Here is an affirmation to exact location of Salomon's mine in the negev desert in Israel.
Jerusalem Post 24 January 2020
King Solomon’s Mines found
Based on multi-disciplinary investigations, Erez Ben-Yosef concluded that the copper mines at Timna formed part of an extensive economic/industrial system operated by the Edomites.
For the last 70 years, many archaeologists assumed that King Solomon was at best a minor local chieftain, simply because no credible evidence had been found documenting his Biblical realm in 900 BCE. However, discoveries beginning 10 years ago at Timna, led by Erez Ben-Yosef, a young articulate archaeologist (who sports a leather hat but does not carry a bullwhip), have upended these theories. Ben-Yosef examined the 1,000 copper mines at Timna and found materials which could be carbon-dated. He was quite surprised to find that they were from 900 BCE, corresponding with the specified period of Solomon’s rule in the Bible.

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Re: ISRAELIS ARE INVITED TO VIST...............MEKKAH

Post by Takeiteasynow »

Perhaps the high days of the copper mine at Timna were a little bit earlier. Most of the sites in the Timna Valley and Wadi Faynan were deserted at the end of the 10th century BCE., following Pharaoh Shishak's campaign (ca. 925 B.C.E.). The sites which continued to exist did so seemingly in a new and more efficient technology - including larger furnaces and other innovative metallurgical installations.

Pharaoh Shishak's campaigns may have caused a migration up north with many new settlements in Judea as Finkelstein reports.

Tracing deity Shalim is an epigraphical nightmare as Semitic root SLM is used for almost anything - there is even another competing Uguritic deity Salman rendered from this root. The most common form is s'lm (s1lm) which means peace, security north of a virtual line in southern Jordan and statue or image south of it but is occasionally also attested as slm b'l or statue/image of the lord. This is a promising lead.
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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