Abraham's God Was Anu

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Takeiteasynow
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Re: Abraham's God Was Anu

Post by Takeiteasynow »

Interesting post, Takeiteasynow. I'll view the sites you linked. One thing's for sure, YHVH is not the original deity of Abraham and the early patriarchs. In fact, the Bible clearly shows that the "Queen of Heaven", Asherah, was more popular until the kings of Israel had her followers all killed. Yahwism only exists today because of genocide, ironically. Whenever Jews gripe about genocide just ask them what happened to all the Asherah worshipers? I don't recall any mass conversions by verbal persuasion in there. There was no compulsion though. They had the free choice of YHVH or death. I see where Muslims got the idea now.
I am afraid there's much more to it.

1) The most likely candidate as deity for Abraham and the early patriarchs is still Hadad-(proto) Yahweh. This deity was worshiped by the Amorites ( from amurru - 'westerners') - alien to Mesopotamia and originally from Canaan/Syria - and Edomites and later, in the same territories under the name of 'Dushara' until circa 700 AD. As can be concluded from the work of John F. Hailey other local deities can be identified as manifestations of Hadad-Yahweh, using epithets or honorary titles. So Hadad-Yahweh was venerated over a period of at least 2700 years.

2) You have to understand how Abrahamic theology works: big changes are introduced by messengers or prophets of only God 'owns the law'. So big changes are molded into narratives that support long term theological developments in scriptures and secondary literature.

3) If Abraham is or relates to Hammurabi then many questions are resolved instantly. It would be like a Theological Domino Day.

4) It hooks up with the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah - around 1700 BC a super heated asteroid explodes near the center of Canaanite religion.

So did the Amorites introduce Hadad-Yahweh in Babylon? That is what needs to be researched.
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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marduk
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Re: Abraham's God Was Anu

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I think there may also be a Hindu connection. A Hindu god with various names, including Murukan, is associated with the hexagram. Where did Solomon get the idea? It's a magical symbol alright, but a Hindu one. More info on this page where this image is from http://narayanaoracle.com/?p=505 Now you see why Hindu idols stand in that odd position, because they're forming a hexagram.

Image

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marduk
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Re: Abraham's God Was Anu

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Reading that pdf about Hammurabi, it says that the stele shows him getting the law from shamash, the sun god. So I guess I was off when I said Anu. Apparently in the preamble to the law code Hammurabi says that he himself was the author though. So those laws about slaves and babies didn't exist before Hammurabi, so we know for certain that the Abraham story had ti be set in a time after the law code was written and widely known.

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Takeiteasynow
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Re: Abraham's God Was Anu

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So those laws about slaves and babies didn't exist before Hammurabi, so we know for certain that the Abraham story had ti be set in a time after the law code was written and widely known.
Or: the story is just a story, basically an extension of an historical event.

So we have Hammurabi and Abram. The name Abram (Anglicized version of Avram) or Abraham is widely attested in Akkadian and first attested in Babylon during the reign of Hammurabi (Anglicized version of his West-Semitic name). Abram means 'high father' or 'the one who protects' and refers to the role of kings in Amorite culture as religious leader and protector of the faith. Hammurabi means something like 'healer of my kinsmen', a kind of honorary title also assigned to Nabataean Kings who also acted as religious leader of their people. So it looks like this Babylonian ruler acts in the same traditions as Edom/Nabataea/Syria which comes as no surprise as the 'Babylonian empire' of Hammurabi is factual an Amorite state like the Egypt of Cleopatra was a Greek kingdom. And the Amorites originate from Syria/Northern Palestine (before migrating from Yemen - circa 2500 BC).

This causes a theological or logical problem. Biblical names like Abram or Hagar are attested up to a millennium earlier in Akkadian and Aramaic than in Hebrew. Assyrian kings battle with Mesopotamian desert tribes carrying biblical names 600 to 800 years before the Pentateuch is codified. And then when the Pentateuch is being codified observers describe the Nabataean empire being organized in 12 districts with an Ishmaelic naming convention. So that's nice! Did they anticipate the upcoming publication of the Pentateuch?

Enough nonsense - the story of Abraham is meaningless in a Hebrew context and was picked up as as Hebrew tribes migrated from Egyptian territories up north. So that makes it possible to take a more promising look at verses such as Genesis 17:5 - "No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations. This matches the adventures of Hammurabi who transformed from a 'high father' in a small nation into a ruler of many nations during his lifetime.

At the same time this analysis takes Judaism much further back in time. With Abraham from Amorite descent (proto) Judaism goes back to at least 2500 BC and possible even older knowing that the Amorite lexicon shared many religious concepts with Yemenite Sabaean.

So Abraham is Hamurrabi and Judaism is at least 4500 years old.
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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manfred
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Re: Abraham's God Was Anu

Post by manfred »

There are rather a lot of "ifs" that we are asked to accept here... We know that the oldest source of the Pentateuch is a long time after Abraham, and also after Hammurabi. (around 1000 BC). But these five texts were not all written at the same time. There are at least four authors or groups of authors centuries apart. And what they relate is at least in part also a much older oral tradition.

As to equating Abraham with Hammurabi is rather a leap too far for me.... Hammurabi was around 1700 BC, some time, 300 years, after Abraham, if we accept the generally accepted dating. So you confused me when you first date Abraham later than usual, but then suggest that Muslim time line is right and he lived some 800 year before Hammurabi....

Time machine?
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Takeiteasynow
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Re: Abraham's God Was Anu

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Hmm, where do I suggest an Islamic timeline? I consider Islam as a development from Himyarite Judaism. And of course you don't have to accept anything as I severely doubt classical Biblical scholarship. And I certainly don't accept that the Pentateuch was codified before the Intertestamental period in a Hebrew context. I can understand the confussion - I should have written that Abraham's story is not unique for and De facto alien to Israelite Judaism.

I argued that Abra(ha)m belongs to an Akkadian/Amorite tradition as both archeology and linguistical evidence restrict the name Abra(ha)m to most West-Semitic areas excluding Palestine until the early centuries BC. It seems that the name Abra(ha)m is completely absent in Hebrew inscriptions or any Palestine inscription that could be described as a form of Judaism until the Intertestamental period (200BC). The scrolls from the Jewish community in Elephantine (Southern Egypt - 500 to 300 BC) don't mention a single Abram or the notion that Abraham plays any role in their religious system. The most simple explanation is that Abraham's story was injected into the Israelite branch of Judaism at the beginning of the Intertestamental period. Once more, Nabataean and Mesopotamian tribes were already using Ishmaelic names long before the first notion of any Abraham within Israelite Judaism.

Basically I formulate the hypothesis that Israelite Judaism is a only side branch of Judaism. Previously I presented other evidence, on multiple occasions, that an Edomite/Safaitic (Amorite) origin would make much more sense.

The Biblical Abraham never existed as a real person and should be considered to be a spiritual figure based upon or inspired by an earthly figure. Abrahamic theological patterns are plain obvious and repetitive - as only God may own the 'Law' historical figures are converted into abstract spiritual figures who act in the name of God. So the proposed birth date of Biblical Abraham is actually irrelevant - although the Masoretic tradition propagates that Abraham was born in 1810 BC (Hammurabi 1812 BC).

What does matter is Abraham's role in the scriptures. Obviously he commits his people to the Covenant. So the question if this process can be attested in an Akkadian/Babylonian context and thus find the master branch of Judaism.

I may be wrong and there's only one thing that may convince me - early Hebrew inscriptions mentioning Abram. And I can't find them.
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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manfred
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Re: Abraham's God Was Anu

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And I certainly don't accept that the Pentateuch was codified before the Intertestamental period in a Hebrew context.
Well, if you are arguing from absence.... Let me ask you if you believe in the existence of France? You heard about it, so is that enough? You may have been there, but how do you know you were not deceived? When is evidence enough to be reasonable?

Here is the problem with ancient texts written on organic materials. The have a limited life span. They simply do not last thousands of years. Qumran is probably the limit.

So does absence always prove non-existence? My glasses have disappeared, I cannot find them. So I use old ones for now. Does that mean my real glasses are just my imagination?

The Septuagint translation pre-dates the "intertestamental" period you specify, not by a lot, some 50-80 years. It is a Greek translation of Hebrew biblical texts, all of them in fact. We know the history of this translation. So the source texts must have existed LONG before then, unless you suggest this translation was made up....

If that is your point, you would also need to explain the Ketef Hinnom Silver Scroll Amulets, which have fractions of the Torah in Hebrew and date from about 600 BC...

Just because we cannot lay hands on the all of the old texts, it does not mean people before us were in the same position.

As to Abraham being real... we seem to like to deny existence of people who lived long ago. We cannot of course prove that he was a historical person, but that is not the same as proof of his non-existence. The most likely answer is that he was a real person, but not all we are told about him is necessarily accurate. He was formed into that patriarch by people living much later, and they had a purpose in telling his tale.

We are no longer able, after such a long time, to tease apart fact from legend in every instance. So we a left with a story, and we need to decide what it means for us.
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Takeiteasynow
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Re: Abraham's God Was Anu

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I am afraid that this is not really helping. The textual analysis of the KH1 and 2 scrolls could also indicate that it was some kind of source extended into multiple chapters over the centuries. But that's beside the point: the conversion of a historical person into Messianic figures is a default feature of Abrahamic theology. There's enough interdisciplinary evidence that can be aggregated into a single grand theory which would explain how this works - as a mixture of historicity, religious devotion and propaganda. But that's beside the point and utterly boring.

I didn't ask for old texts but inscriptions. Absence of the 'founding father' and the 'covenant' in inscriptions can't be ignored as there are plenty of others that do mention YHWH in different contexts, for instance with Ashera. Everything indicates that Hebrew tribes converted to Judaism in a later stage and broke away to start their own branch.
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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Re: Abraham's God Was Anu

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The textual analysis of the KH1 and 2 scrolls could also indicate that it was some kind of source extended into multiple chapters over the centuries.
Well, that would rather odd... why would exactly these pieces be the kernel for a presumed later Torah? In what way are they central?

Inscriptions? The Levant at the time of Abraham was backwater, and if you are looking for ancient inscriptions you need to look in more advanced places, such as Egypt. Here is one about Israel:
The princes are prostrate, saying, "Peace!"
Not one is raising his head among the Nine Bows.
Now that Tehenu (Libya) has come to ruin,
Hatti is pacified;
The Canaan has been plundered into every sort of woe:
Ashkelon has been overcome;
Gezer has been captured;
Yano'am is made non-existent.
Israel is laid waste and his seed is not;
Hurru is become a widow because of Egypt.
This is a sort of victory brag found on an Egyptian stele, the Meneptah Stele. (There is more on that tablet, but this bit is the interesting part here.)

The inscription dates from about 1210 BC. It is evidence of a people known as Israel in the Levant. It is referred to by name. "Israel" as a name for a people strongly links this people to Jacob, the descendent of Abraham. The very use of that name means that at that time the Israelites had identified as descendants of of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, known as "Israel".

Moreover, we are told this by someone hostile to Israel, an enemy, with no interest to promote or support any of Israel's agenda. They simply state that they knew about these people and that they called their ancestor Israel.

There is also found in Egypt an inscription about Joseph.... The slab in question, known as Sania 115, dates from 1842 BCE and is on display at Harvard’s Semitic Museum. It identifies Joseph and his two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, and is inscribed with the words “6 Levantines: Hebrews of Bethel, the beloved.” Also, Douglas Petrovich. an ancient-inscription specialist, archaeologist and professor of Egyptian history at Wilfrid Laurier University in Ontario, said he subsequently translated 16 more Hebrew inscriptions from four other ancient slabs discovered in Egypt and Sinai, including one from 1446 BCE, which describes Moses as a figure heralded by the ancient Jews shortly before he led the exodus from Egypt.

All this suggests that the the biblical narrative was at least partially known in ancient times, outside the people of Israel.
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Re: Abraham's God Was Anu

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There is also found in Egypt an inscription about Joseph.... The slab in question, known as Sania 115, dates from 1842 BCE and is on display at Harvard’s Semitic Museum.
There ares some serious issues with Sania 115. According to critics:
(1) The correct reading is in two lines: Jpn, son of Jrw. Petrovich combines J and p from line one with r from line 2.
(2) Egyptian /j/ is used to render Semitic aleph, never an ayin (and one would need an ayin here to have
the word “Hebrew”).
(3) Similarly, in the 12th dynasty, Egyptian /r/ is never a transcription of Semitic /r/, but of /l/ and /d/.
(4) Also, /p/ is a regular rendering of Semitic /p/ and not /b/, although this is less objectionable.
(5) Ultimately, therefore, Petrovich’s proposed reading of this word as “Hebrew” is not possible.

I am afraid Petrvich is more concerned with his legacy than science. That being said the Egyptian context seems promising.
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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Re: Abraham's God Was Anu

Post by manfred »

So ALL his claims are wrong?
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Takeiteasynow
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Re: Abraham's God Was Anu

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Hmmm does Ephraim contain an Egyptian /r/ and/or /p/ ....? :sly:

Anyway, there is something far more interesting. The mysterious Hyksos introduced a nameless Sky/Thunder god during the same time Hammurabi founds his empire. Hyksos refers to "king-shepherds" and that's preciously how the Amorites are described in Babylonian texts. Now the Hyksos use superior weaponry that's also or only known in Babylon. Could Hammurabi's successors, Amorites themselves, have provided this technology to their close relatives in Syria/Palestine? And what about the banishing of idolatry?
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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Re: Abraham's God Was Anu

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I think I am done here. You seem to constantly shift the goalpost.... You ask for things and when given you want something else. For example you claim there was no Hebrew bible as such before 200 BC, ad when you see a much older inscription with a quote from it you complain that it not all of it.
You ask about inscriptions about Israel and the Patriarch and when some are given you ignore one all together and the other you claim is not translated right.

All I can say, it would be better to allow all the evidence and not merely the bits that seem to support your ideas. It is perhaps also worth remembering that if you reject the work of scholars then it is up to you to provide the proof, not for others to disprove you. You are the one challenging archaeology and conventional biblical study, so the burden of proof is yours.

Balance in these things are important.

Also be weary of contradicting yourself. For example, you hypothesise that Abraham is equal to Hammurabi, which would place him at about 1700 BC; but just a but further you say Abraham lived at 2500 BC, and then, later still, he was not real at all. Well, Hammurabi was. So all these ideas contradict each other, and you need to decide which to adopt and which to reject.

And you are arguing about "Hebrew" as if that was written as in modern Hebrew. The Hebrew alphabet is a much later development than the Egyptian inscriptions. and where are your sources?
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Re: Abraham's God Was Anu

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Hmm funny, I was having the same impression:)

I don't have to take anything into account of course. Most material from biblical ore related scholarship are all dead end streets and explain nothing. That's why one formulates new questions that need research and naturally don't provide immediate answers and may even evolve whilst being debated. You consistently ignore key questions and stop speculating about what I write - Abraham in an Islamic timeline, Abraham in 2500 BC: all crap - or promote/cherry pick sidelined topics.
Anyway, that won't stop me of course.

(Edit): And a note on the side topic Septuagint (where I referred to the Pentateuch) - 305,358 words and only a few phrases are (possibly) mentioned in a single inscription? One would expect much more archeological evidence especially knowing that professional record keepers like the Egyptians and Babylonians were already deeply involved in Jewish affairs. The codification process is my main source of concern - from the intertestamental period one can easily conclude that different nominations like Hebrew sects and Samaritans are almost codifying simultaneously in different languages and different scripts to achieve the same result. That indicates that these nominations were using the same (external) source as the differences between the Samaritan Pentateuch and matching Hebrew Bible chapters are minimal (location of the Temple).
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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Re: Abraham's God Was Anu

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I don't have to take anything into account of course.
Sure. I think that explains it fully.
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Takeiteasynow
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Re: Abraham's God Was Anu

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Image

Delicious cherries! Take your pick!
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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Re: Abraham's God Was Anu

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Why are you trying to be impolite? You are the one contradicting himself, and the one who is being selective with evidence. It seems to be rather human thing to project things onto others when one does not really want to address something.

I think we better leave this topic now.
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Takeiteasynow
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Re: Abraham's God Was Anu

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That's fine with me. I will open a new thread about this matter in due time and present material in an orderly fashion.

The Hyksos or Amorites and their nameless god appear to be the missing glue for an elegant grand theory that covers it all.

Marduk, thanks for introducing me to the Babylonian hemisphere!
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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Re: Abraham's God Was Anu

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I look forward to that.
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Re: Abraham's God Was Anu

Post by Takeiteasynow »

Well, that maybe take a while. This seems to be Pandora's Box indeed. It all centers around Amorite Harran and some 25.000 Amorite Mari tablets (dated 1810 BC - 1750 BC) that mention most figures from the Abrahamic timeline as proper names or city names. They even mention the Hebrew (Hapiru) as some kind of Amorite tribe.

This makes it possible to build linguistical and etymological pipelines that include the transfer of religious rituals. For instance with Semitic root rb(b) meaning teacher or master. Hammurabi (d'ammu'rapi) simply means 'He is my Teacher' or 'God is My Teacher'. The master teaching role is attested is Harran and simply a rabbi. Then through the ages this role is transferred or injected into the Palmyrian and later Petraean area where the root rbb is attested in religious roles. And the Mari tables mention the nameless God Yahweh, 900 years before the first mentioning in Israel but only a few centuries before the new cult of the 'Lord of the Convenant' appears in Schezem with clear ties with Amorite Harran.

Harran links this tradition to the Quran as Harranites are mentioned as Sabaeans. This matches the notion that the Amorite Harrans migrated from Yemen around 2400 BC. Genesis can only be an Amorite/Aramaic tradition.

It may take a while to test this line of evidence in multiple disciplines.
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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