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Re: Muslim questions on Christianity

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:17 pm
by Eagle
There is no guarantee other than trust, that the postman will deliver his next mail as promised. So how does his son's murder increase my trust in him? If anything, it only shows he's a deluded criminal.

God promises and teaches over and over that forgiveness doesnt come freely but is earned, through concrete, repeated, steadfast actions proving one's sincere penitent resolve, as well as if possible the restitution of the harm done.

As to monstrosity, Jesus states in the Greek Testament in when contrasting the ephemeral wordly benefits with the real, everlasting reward of the Hereafter which every believer should ultimately strive for
"store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also".
That mindframe inclines the individual to goodness, seeing how God's generous, gracious reward far surpasses in value the merit of those that shall benefit from it. Jesus further tells them that if they do not pray, fast or give to charity with the right attitude, but only to be seen by men as the hypocritical Jews of his time did, just as the hypocritical Muslims in Muhammad's time did 9:53-4, then "you will have no reward from your Father in heaven" and that their works will remain in this passing world and vanish.

The glorious Quran of course, being from the same divine origin as the revelation bestowed upon the prophet Jesus, repeatedly states that the right attitude in all endeavours especially in the performance of religious duties, is to do good to please God in all circumstances, having the ultimate reality of the Hereafter and its everlasting reward in view, and moreso in times of hardship
14:31,13:22"And those who are constant, seeking the pleasure of their Lord, and keep up prayer and spend (benevolently) out of what We have given them secretly and openly and repel evil with good; as for those, they shall have the (happy) issue of the abode".


Elsewhere it eloquently states 35:10"To Him do ascend the good words and the good deed lifts them up" the righteous word and the righteous action are presented as inter-dependent. No action can be righteous merely on the basis of its external and apparent form unless it has a righteous creed behind it. And no righteous creed can be reliable unless it is supported and confirmed by a person's action
6:158"On the day when some of the signs of your Lord shall come, its faith shall not profit a soul which did not believe before, or earn good through its faith."


James, Jesus' rightful spiritual successor stated the same thing
James2:20-25
You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Re: Muslim questions on Christianity

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:33 pm
by manfred
The question if salvation is by faith alone or by good works also was one of the issues in the reformation.

It has always been held that faith without actions is not really faith. In Christian theology (catholic, orthodox and most of the reformed churches, but not all) Faith is a gift of grace, and it causes the behaviour of people to change. In other words, "actions" are a consequence of faith.

If you are invited somewhere, then you need to do something more than say yes. You need to actually go. But if you do, you find yu will want to buy a present, bring some flowers, or all kinds of things.

In Christianity salvations is not "earned" by anyone or any action, it is a gift of God. You cannot buy a ticket to heaven.

But you can accept an invitation. Then your life changes, and the "actions" are merely a further gift of God.

The worst aspect of Islam is that is suggests people can bargain with God and buy your way into "paradise" with murder of non-Muslims.

If anything, it only shows he's a deluded criminal.


How do you murder God?

The ONE God murdered himself?

Re: I am disappointed with the muslims in the forum.

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:38 pm
by Eagle
frankie wrote:Eagle


As to the hadith, it is worthwhile mentioning that there is no basis for the caliphate with an ideology for territorial expansion in either the Quran or in prophetic traditions.


Why did Mohammed claim he had been ordered to fight anyone, if Islam is not about world domination for its god Allah.

Sahih Al Bukhari Vol 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 196.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Abu Huraira : Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has
the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' his life and
property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to forgive him.)









Basic intellectual honesty dictates that when one is dealing with a piece of a text, is to put it in its context, rather than simply isolating it all on it’s own, and then deriving a supposed interpretation and conclusion. If it meant what those who know nothing, wanted it to mean, then these would have been able to find a precedent in the prophet of God's life to corroborate. But as already said and shown, such precedent is nothing but wishful thinking, and the divine source is explicit that There is no compulsion in religion, until the end of days, ironically the same day which, those who know nothing and believe in vain things, think that all races and nations will be forcefully bowing to their God Zech14.

As to the hadith, it is very close to a reoccuring Quran verse
8:39,2:193"And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors" the verse and its wider context are speaking of religious persecution. It is the right and duty of every Muslim to defend himself against that persecution causing him fear or preventing him completely from practicing his religion, or even compromising some of it to please the oppressor.
"and all the religion is for Allah" explains why religious persecution must be fought; by THE religion (singular, pointed with a definite article ie Islam) should be entirely for Allah, what is meant is there cannot be any forceful compromise between this way (Islam) and any other way or form of worship out of fear. Muslims should be able to worship freely and without any fear just as the followers of previous revelations had the right to worship safely and without any compulsion which is why it is said in 22:40 that throughout the ages Allah repelled some men by means of others to keep safe synagogues, churches and cloisters 2:251"And were it not for Allah's repelling some men with others, the earth would certainly be in a state of disorder; but Allah is Gracious to the creatures".

The end of the verse 2:193 re-stresses against whom fighting must be exclusively directed, showing that the aim is not to erase all other forms of worship, but only to stop fitna/religious persecution "but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors". (see 10:83,16:110,85:10 for fitna).

If they desist from persecution, the Muslims are at once to stop fighting against them, and hostilities are not to be continued against any except the aggressors. The interpretation that these words mean that fighting is to be continued until all people accept Islam, is therefore belied, not only by the clear wording of the verse itself, but by the rest of the Quran speaking of peaceful coexistance regardless of faith so long as no hostility is initiated against the Muslims, and also belied but by history itself.

There is no coercion in religion because truth is made plain through the revelation 2:256,18:29 it becomes self evident against falsehood and thus must naturally prevail over any form of worship that is not the surrender to Allah 3:19,9:33,34:46-47,48:28,61:9. This is according to a universal system established upon Truth, and where falsehood is therefore bound to vanish 15:85,17:81,21:16-8.

This prophecy which the prophet saw the fulfillement in his lifetime on the land of Arabia, is particularly made clear in 48:27-8 and does not signify that other religions would at any time entirely disappear. It only indicates that the superiority of the religion of Islam over all other religions will at last be established, and Islam will be the religion of the majority of the nations of the earth. Although it initially addresses a specific nation 6:92,42:7 since the one charged to deliver it was from that particular location, the Quran, because of its pristine nature in relation to the original monotheism and to all of humanity's innate disposition, as well as its universal, timeless relevancy, was meant as mercy to the entire world 62:3"and [to cause this message to spread] from them unto other people as soon as they come into contact with them".

It is the natural right of all Muslims and every human being to 26:227"defend themselves after they are oppressed". The divinely sanctionned right, throughout the ages and nations, of jihad in self defense has a clear objective which is not to gain territorial expansion but to dispel mischief, and corruption/fasad on the earth and stop religious oppression 2:251,22:40. Even though the object of the enemies of Islam when they take on arms and engage Muslims in war is to exterminate them entirely, the Muslims are told that the Divine object in assisting the believers in punishing the disbelievers at war is not to exterminate them, but to deliver a blow that would deter them from continuous agression 3:127.

Many verses, in addition to the ones previously mentionned, and passages lay out the limits of reprisal when one is exercizing his right to self-defence. That aspect of Jihad cannot be directed are those 60:8"who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes..show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice" or those who come in peace without any desire to fight 4:90 and this is because not all of Islam's opponents are alike, some do not strive actively for the extermination of Muslims and should therefore not be fought in the same way as one would engage an armed enemy. They, as well as others could be influenced by their comunity and so the benefit of the doubt is on their side 60:7"It may be that Allah will bring about friendship between you and those whom you hold to be your enemies among them; and Allah is Powerful; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful".

Those upon whom the law of armed self-defense is ordained are 60:9"those who made war upon you on account of (your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion". In situations of opression and the infliction of evil on them, the believers must retain their composure and live up to their level of faith and God-consciousness by keeping in mind the higher realities. Although they will be in no way blamable for retaliating and defending themselves with the same level of evil they have suffered, they should prefer magnanimity whenever pardoning can be conducing to reconcilement and possible reforming of the evil doer. And since in that case it necessarily involves the selfless act of supressing of one's own feelings for the sake of a higher truth, Allah reassures the person that the corresponding reward is well kept with Him and the Quran concludes once again by upholding and praising the virtues of patience and forgiveness in adversity, as well as recognizing the great resolve such an attitude requires 2:177,42:37-43.

What is to be kept in mind, once more is that in no case does Islam deny the basic human right of self-defense under opression. The Quran forbids any retaliation above and beyond what a person has himself received. The very foundations of the divine law, as taught by all Prophets, is the establishment of justice and to argue a person has no right to seek his rights is an absolute wrong. In the above verses, the Quran has taught the best attitude, and that is to forgive and continue calling people to right and goodness, even if the people try and persecute another but when the persecution becomes unbearable and life threatening, hindering one from religious freedom then retaliation within limits is permitted.

The Prophet's conflict with his tribe was not because of any worldly reason; it was only for the freedom to practice the religion of God 4:74,94 in the place originally dedicated for it.
He wanted the leaders of the Quraysh to fulfill their obligations towards the House of God because they were its custodians. If they were not ready for this, then they had no right to keep it in their custody nor did they have any right to stop people through persecution from embracing the religion of God or practicing their worship on a land settled for the universal worship of the One God since the days of Ibrahim 22:25-9. This was Allah's way before in regards to a land declared sacred but whose purpose was perverted and progressively abandonned by a people who despite knowing God, had perverted His ways Gen15:16,Deut9,1Sam4:7. They would intimidate any convert to Islam or anyone willing to embrace it. It was to eliminate this fitna that the Prophet was ordered to dislodge the Quraysh from Mecca. And when he did so as prophecied publicly as a matter of warning at the very beginning of his prophetic call, people hastened to accept Islam in multitudes now that they were suddenly afforded with the liberty to choose their own religion, in total freedom from the shackles of the Quraysh. 110:2 predicted this reality long before the conquest of Mecca "And you see men embrace the religion of God in multitudes", and this was through the
guidance of the Heavenly Book that transcended all obstacles to give life to the spiritually dead 6:122.

Re: Muslim questions on Christianity

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:16 pm
by Eagle
@manfred

There is no paradise for murderers in Islam, however there seems to be approval for a disturbed, criminal and unjust God in the Christian heaven, irrationally murdering his son (his self/son) to try and extirpate himself from his inferiority complex to prove to his creation that he is trustworthy.

And if the son/self did not really die, then what did this staged deception achieve. After all, the HB God does not and cannot die (habakkuk1) so what is all this convoluted masquerade all about?

As to faith and deeds, it did not need Christianity's chaotic and convoluted advent to establish the fact that correct faith is what guides righteous deeds. This is because the righteous' way is enlightened while the one of the wicked is dark and crooked regardless of his perception of it, as here stated by Solomon Prov5:18-19"But the way of the righteous is like the light of dawn; it shines ever brighter until the day is perfect. The way of the wicked is like pitch darkness; they do not know on what they stumble".

An eloquent liguistic device used in the Quran to contrast guidance with the lack of it, is the mentionning of aala/upon with guidance, picturing the guided ones riding a calm entity or standing on an elevated place from where they have a clear view, while fi/in is mentionned with the state of error, picturing the misguided ones engulfed in the darkness of delusion and unable to perceive their surroundings correctly 34:24.

The notion of God guiding the righteous who walk in His way, making their steps firm by leveling and smoothing their path is expressed in the Hebrew Bible in many places. The prophet David supplicated God for that Ps5:9"O Lord, lead me in Your righteousness; because of those who lie in wait for me, make Your way straight before me" which resulted in that God Ps18:37"enlarged my step[s] beneath me, and my ankles have not slipped".

This guidance, making the believer's step "firm" gives a clear discernement of right and wrong as here, among many places stated in the Quran "and make for you a light with which you will walk"

Elsewhere the Quran is very appropriately referred to as al-Furqan/the Criterion, precisely for its endowing the believer with the correct insight to discriminate between right and wrong 25:1,45:20"This (Quran) is visions for the people and guidance and mercy for a people who are certain".

That sharpness of spiritual insight endowed upon those God deems fit is such that faith and righteousness become the dearest of values while unbelief and transgression become hated 49:7-8. The prophet Ibrahim, having received a clear discernment of right and wring even felt physically sick at the sight of falsehood 37:89. The prophet Yusuf, because of that faculty was able to extricate himself from a situation that would have otherwise compromised his chastity 12:22-4. Love of Truth and aversion towards everything false and sinful is the natural outcome of the acceptance of the straight path, the longing for divine knowledge and wisdom, as reflected in David's Psalms "From Your precepts I shall gain understanding; therefore, I hate all ways of falsehood. Your words are a lamp for my foot, and light for my path...Did I not hate Your enemies, O Lord? With those who rise up against You, I quarrel. I hate them with utmost hatred; they have become my enemies".

Re: Muslim questions on Christianity

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:29 pm
by manfred
There is no paradise for murderers in Islam


Tell that to your fellow Muslims blowing things up and killing people in Christmas markets. On second thoughts, better don't they might cut off your head as murtad.

Re: Muslim questions on Christianity

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:14 pm
by sum
Hello Eagle

Your quote -
There is no paradise for murderers in Islam,

Are fathers who "honour kill" their daughters able to go to paradise?

Another question for you.

If a muslim murders someone but then goes on a Jew killing spree and is killed after he has killed some Jews will he go to paradise?

sum

Re: Muslim questions on Christianity

PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:37 pm
by frankie
Eagle

If they desist from persecution, the Muslims are at once to stop fighting against them, and hostilities are not to be continued against any except the aggressors.



The Quran disagrees with you.


Quran 4.89

They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-


4.89 Abbas - Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs

They long that you should disbelieve) in Muhammad and the Qur'an (even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them)) in following idolatry. (So choose not friends from them) in religion or for seeking assistance and backing (till they forsake their homes) until they believe again and migrate (in the way of Allah) in obedience of Allah; (if they turn back) from faith and migration (then take them) as prisoners (and kill them wherever you find them) in the Sacred Precinct or anywhere else, (and choose no friend) in religion or for seeking assistance and backing (nor helper) a protector (from among them)

4.89 Jalal - Al-Jalalayn
They long, they wish, that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, so then you, and they, would be equal, in unbelief; therefore do not take friends from among them, associating with them, even if they should [outwardly] manifest belief, until they emigrate in the way of God, a proper emigration that would confirm their belief; then, if they turn away, and remain upon their ways, take them, as captives, and slay them wherever you find them; and do not take any of them as a patron, to associate with, or as a helper, to assist you against your enemy.


It is kuffr alone which is the reason for fighting according to Allah, not accepting Allah as the only god, with Mohammed as the prophet, is reason enough for hostility against all non Muslims.
Islam proves it is a false religion for this reason, no other prophet before Mohammed ever preached to fight people because of their unbelief in YHWH, because fighting people is not what true religion is based upon.

True religion is about the spiritual combat of a spiritual “enemy “using spiritual weapons, and not physical fighting of people, which is what Mohammed did in accordance with the Quran.
Mohammed proved he was a false prophet by doing just this, unbelievers are” enemies of Islam and its people “who must be fought against, to bring them to accept Allah as the only god.

Ibn Kathir 9.30
Allah the Exalted encourages the believers to fight the polytheists, disbelieving Jews and Christians, who uttered this terrible statement and utter lies against Allah, the Exalted. As for the Jews, they claimed that `Uzayr was the son of God, Allah is free of what they attribute to Him. As for the misguidance of Christians over `Isa, it is obvious. This is why Allah declared both groups to be liars,

Tafsir Ibn Kathir on 5.51.
Allah forbids His believing servants from having Jews and Christians as friends, because they are the enemies of Islam and its people, may Allah curse them. Allah then states that they are friends of each other and He gives a warning threat to those who do this

You belong to a false religion, invented by a false prophet, you are a victim of a "religious" deception.