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Does Christanity tell that after death ?

PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:40 am
by iffo
Does Christanity tell that after death our spirit go to heaven or hell. And if it is heaven we meet our loved ones who had died and meet our pets, we don't have a physical body but just energy /spirit. Heaven is nothing but love .

Re: Does Christanity tell that after death ?

PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:59 am
by manfred
That depends which Christians you are asking. All Christians would say that there is more to life than this this life and the real purpose of all men is to be "re-united" with God. "Heaven" is imagined by people in a lot of ways, from a sexual pleasure dome to a an analogy for meeting the divine. If you do not have a a belief in heaven then the images that people use to describe it tell you a lot about them.

Re: Does Christanity tell that after death ?

PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:11 pm
by Nosuperstition
manfred wrote:That depends which Christians you are asking. All Christians would say that there is more to life than this this life and the real purpose of all men is to be "re-united" with God. "Heaven" is imagined by people in a lot of ways, from a sexual pleasure dome to a an analogy for meeting the divine. If you do not have a a belief in heaven then the images that people use to describe it tell you a lot about them.


Yes after having been separated from him due to the Original Sin of Adam and Eve in eating the fruit of knowledge by going against God's wishes.Now in the Bible God says that a bastard's progeny is barred from his temple not for 2 generations but for 10 generations.But in this concept of Original Sin it is multiplied for eternity unless of course if you are saved.

As far as what I have heard from missionaries proselytising outside of my house once upon a time,believers are promised houses of gold in Heaven.Jesus also asks his followers to give up the treasures of this world so that they inherit treasures in heaven.

Re: Does Christanity tell that after death ?

PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 2:24 pm
by manfred
"Original sin" is understood as a propensity to sin, a concupiscence as Augustine describes. And "houses of gold"? Honestly.... If you found the one thing that is the completion of all desire, why would you want a house of gold...

The NT tells a funny story of the devil offering Jesus everything he can see... and Jesus refused. That is because none of that stuff matters.

Re: Does Christanity tell that after death ?

PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:34 pm
by frankie
iffo
Does Christanity tell that after death our spirit go to heaven or hell. And if it is heaven we meet our loved ones who had died and meet our pets, we don't have a physical body but just energy /spirit. Heaven is nothing but love .



The Christian understanding of heaven and hell comes from Jesus, when He affirmed both during His ministry, but He never spoke about animals being in these places, as His mission was to save human beings souls for eternal life in the Kingdom of God, not animals.

It is the spiritual body which will enter either of these “places “when the physical body dies, to know more, a reading of the N.T.would be helpful.

To say” heaven is nothing but love” would agree with Christian understanding, as wherever God is, love is there also, which would indicate nothing but love must be in Heaven

Re: Does Christanity tell that after death ?

PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:05 pm
by iffo
The reason i asked becsuse ipeople who have near death experience say all these things about heaven. That they met their loved ones and it is all unconditional love they felt their. But most of them who say so sre chridtains. I would say 99%.
I wonder since its in theiir subconcious so that why they see all these. NDE what Ali sina was quite excited about and i was quite convinced as well, but i have my
doubts now that it is indded trick your mind plays.

Re: Does Christanity tell that after death ?

PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:29 pm
by frankie
iffo wrote:The reason i asked becsuse ipeople who have near death experience say all these things about heaven. That they met their loved ones and it is all unconditional love they felt their. But most of them who say so sre chridtains. I would say 99%.
I wonder since its in theiir subconcious so that why they see all these. NDE what Ali sina was quite excited about and i was quite convinced as well, but i have my
doubts now that it is indded trick your mind plays.


Iffo

Not all the people who have had NDE have been Christians, there have been atheists and people of other faiths, and so 99% is not proportional.

However, it would be right to say that a pious Christian does not need to have a NDE experience to know there is an after life, their faith is enough.

Re: Does Christanity tell that after death ?

PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:22 am
by iffo
frankie wrote:
iffo wrote:The reason i asked becsuse ipeople who have near death experience say all these things about heaven. That they met their loved ones and it is all unconditional love they felt their. But most of them who say so sre chridtains. I would say 99%.
I wonder since its in theiir subconcious so that why they see all these. NDE what Ali sina was quite excited about and i was quite convinced as well, but i have my
doubts now that it is indded trick your mind plays.


Iffo

Not all the people who have had NDE have been Christians, there have been atheists and people of other faiths, and so 99% is not proportional.

However, it would be right to say that a pious Christian does not need to have a NDE experience to know there is an after life, their faith is enough.


True, there are people of other faiths as well , but by in large christains have their NDE. Yes pious christains do not need NDE to believe in heaven they depend on their faith. But then there are others who are not convinced unless there is some evidence.

Not sure if Ali still believes in NDE, which he called game changer. I was reading that there is a drug called DMT, given to people it produces same results as NDE. Interstingly DMT is also in human brian. If human brain releases this DMT at the time of death then it will explain why people have NDE.

Re: Does Christanity tell that after death ?

PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:37 am
by manfred
Maybe NDE are mostly recorded in Western countries? I do no accept they are evidence of any specific "heaven", though. There are plain explanations for these without a need to resort to super natural things.

Re: Does Christanity tell that after death ?

PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:56 am
by frankie
iffo wrote:
frankie wrote:
iffo wrote:The reason i asked becsuse ipeople who have near death experience say all these things about heaven. That they met their loved ones and it is all unconditional love they felt their. But most of them who say so sre chridtains. I would say 99%.
I wonder since its in theiir subconcious so that why they see all these. NDE what Ali sina was quite excited about and i was quite convinced as well, but i have my
doubts now that it is indded trick your mind plays.


Iffo

Not all the people who have had NDE have been Christians, there have been atheists and people of other faiths, and so 99% is not proportional.

However, it would be right to say that a pious Christian does not need to have a NDE experience to know there is an after life, their faith is enough.


True, there are people of other faiths as well , but by in large christains have their NDE. Yes pious christains do not need NDE to believe in heaven they depend on their faith. But then there are others who are not convinced unless there is some evidence.

Not sure if Ali still believes in NDE, which he called game changer. I was reading that there is a drug called DMT, given to people it produces same results as NDE. Interstingly DMT is also in human brian. If human brain releases this DMT at the time of death then it will explain why people have NDE.



iffo
True, there are people of other faiths as well , but by in large christains have their NDE


Interstingly DMT is also in human brian. If human brain releases this DMT at the time of death then it will explain why people have NDE.


You cannot have this both ways iffo,either NDE is exclusive mainly to Christians, or it is an all human issue.

Re: Does Christanity tell that after death ?

PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:08 pm
by manfred
As far as I am given to understand, NDE are linked to two important things...
a) the sequence in which the brain shuts down. This is related to the "life flashing before your eye" experience, as well as the "bright light" thing, as well as other things. As the sequence of shut-down is the same for all humans, some NDE will be very similar no matter who experiences them.

b) Cultural and religious expectation. These contribute more individual, specific experiences. Some of these will be calm or even euphoric, others nightmarish. So you are quite right, iffo, if research on NDE is mostly done with Christian people, there will be an element of these experiences that is coined by their religious and cultural background.

I think when it comes to descriptions of heaven (or hell) Christians should take careful note of the way Jewish scholar approach this... They say very little beyond that life does not end with death. Sometimes Christians let their imagination run riot. After all, "heaven" by definition is beyond our world, so none of or senses can explore it, none of our words describe it adequately. So less is better than too much, specially when our descriptions in the end only reveal our own personality, and not what heaven really means.

Muslims have even less scruples in letting their desires define heaven, leading to some quite absurd ideas.

Having said that, some verifiable out of body experiences are very hard to explain, and I cannot offer any analysis on that.

Re: Does Christanity tell that after death ?

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:44 am
by Nosuperstition
manfred wrote:"Original sin" is understood as a propensity to sin, a concupiscence as Augustine describes. And "houses of gold"? Honestly.... If you found the one thing that is the completion of all desire, why would you want a house of gold...

The NT tells a funny story of the devil offering Jesus everything he can see... and Jesus refused. That is because none of that stuff matters.


Gold means ambience. Who in their right mind would not like to live in ambient living habitats that too if it is a case of eternal life.Jesus also told his followers to give up treasures of this world so that they could inherit the same treasures in the hereafter.That when Christianity did not have the power of official recognition in the Roman Empire,was considered a cult of the lower classes that is the fifth column of the Persians and depended upon generating more goodwill amongst the poor pagans.And with regards to Jesus refusing,of course being a firm believer in the hereafter,he refused what the devil offered him,but does he refuse what his heavenly father has to offer to him?And having already been the Messiah,he is already fit enough to inherit the ends of earth for his inheritance.Why does one small city satisfy him or his followers?Conquistadors told the conquered native Amerindians that they has a thirst that can only be satisfied with gold.

Re: Does Christanity tell that after death ?

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:12 am
by Nosuperstition
frankie wrote:It is the spiritual body which will enter either of these “places “when the physical body dies, to know more, a reading of the N.T.would be helpful.


If so then why is there so much emphasis on land consuming burial last rites in Christianity.Aren't human beings resurrected from atom to atom on the Day of Judgement?Now apologists for the Spanish conquistadors at the racist site,the frontpagemag said that the Conquistador families had only one to two acres of land back in the Iberian peninsula so therefore they opted for stealing the land of the native Amerindians.If Christianity really doesn't teach about physical bodies,then they can opt for cremation,isn't it?

Re: Does Christanity tell that after death ?

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:35 am
by manfred
Heaven and golden houses is nonsense, as are most imaginative descriptions of heaven.If God is that which completes you utterly and fulfils all desire, not by providing it at face value, but by giving something sublimely better instead, "golden house" will seem like a dung heap.

And the idea that God bribes people with possession (or sex) really is stupid.

Re: Does Christanity tell that after death ?

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:44 am
by frankie
Nosuperstition wrote:
frankie wrote:It is the spiritual body which will enter either of these “places “when the physical body dies, to know more, a reading of the N.T.would be helpful.


If so then why is there so much emphasis on land consuming burial last rites in Christianity.Aren't human beings resurrected from atom to atom on the Day of Judgement?Now apologists for the Spanish conquistadors at the racist site,the frontpagemag said that the Conquistador families had only one to two acres of land back in the Iberian peninsula so therefore they opted for stealing the land of the native Amerindians.If Christianity really doesn't teach about physical bodies,then they can opt for cremation,isn't it?


Nosuperstition

You are confusing the worldly with the spiritual here.

Yes it is true that Christians believe the soul lives on after the physical body dies, but this does not excuse any lapses in breaking the very rules Christians lived by whilst they had life on earth.

Unfortunately greed can raise its ugly head in all situations, of which Christians being human, are not immune.

There is no Christian "law" which demands Christians to be buried, it is only because Jesus was buried, why the custom continued.

Re: Does Christanity tell that after death ?

PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:38 am
by iffo
I am quite sure other faiths also have NDE , they just don't document it. Christians also just started documenting it recently. There is no doubt that DMT produce same results as NDE. I have read many what they call DMT trip experience. Scientist have been trying to prove that this whole NDE is bogus and proves nothing about afterlife. They believe it happens because of lack of oxygen in the brain which sparks brain activity just before death. But that argument is just a theory, they have no evidence that lack of oxygen cause NDE. If they can prove that at time of death brain releases DMT then whole NDE will be debunked but as of now there is no evidence that brain releases DMT at time of death. Perhaps 20 years from now they will prove it wrong, will have to wait and see. As of now I am skeptical of NDE even though they are quite convincing.

Re: Does Christanity tell that after death ?

PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:21 am
by manfred
Well, this being so, iffo, if would not be helpful to roll out NDE as "proof" for an afterlife.
At the end of the day, this is a question of belief. At best you can argue that NDE appear to be at least in parts compatible with some religious beliefs, but as we have explanations for them that do no require recourse to "afterlife" religious teachings, they cannot provide much in the way of evidence.

Re: Does Christanity tell that after death ?

PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:15 pm
by Nosuperstition
manfred wrote:Heaven and golden houses is nonsense, as are most imaginative descriptions of heaven.If God is that which completes you utterly and fulfils all desire, not by providing it at face value, but by giving something sublimely better instead, "golden house" will seem like a dung heap.

And the idea that God bribes people with possession (or sex) really is stupid.


I haven't had direct sex with any other person on the planet up until now,so I cannot say,but a muslim forum member at bismiaallahuma discussion forum where all the posts presently stand deleted or unavailable said once that sex is beautiful you moron.

Re: Does Christanity tell that after death ?

PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:16 pm
by sum
Hello Nosuperstition


Who is the moron? Do you mean that the muslim means that you are the moron, or, is it that you think that manfred is the moron?

sum

Re: Does Christanity tell that after death ?

PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:50 pm
by Fernando
sum wrote:Hello Nosuperstition


Who is the moron? Do you mean that the muslim means that you are the moron, or, is it that you think that manfred is the moron?

sum
Either way, NS, please don't start copying SAM. One is enough.
EDIT:
Anyway, in the bit that you have underlined, NS, Manfred was disputing a claim about an action of god, not a claim about the relative attractiveness of sex.