Page 2 of 3

Re: A question for the muslims. How many gods are there?

PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 11:42 am
by Fernando
sum wrote:Hello Garudaman

Where are you? So far, you have completely failed to convince anyone that the God of the New Testament is the same as the god of the Koran.
Don't worry, Garudaman - you can still explain that Allah and Zeus are the same. Do please tell us whether they are.

Re: A question for the muslims. How many gods are there?

PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:18 pm
by Nosuperstition
Fernando wrote:Garudaman, you haven't told us: is Allah the same as Zeus?


No Zeus worshippers were lax in their morals according to ohmyrus. Many others also consider present day Christianity with a far greater stress on forgiveness from a loving father or grand father type figure much similar to Graeco-Roman philosophies. Now even the lax laws of the present Western societies are derived from some periods of their paganic heritage jurisprudence. Of course, since word Elohim sometimes means plurality of gods in Hebrew, even Judeo-Christianity can be considered polytheistic.

Re: A question for the muslims. How many gods are there?

PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:52 pm
by Garudaman
sum wrote:Hello Garudaman

You really are trying to defend the indefensible.

Your quote -
yeah but even with one scripture, the problem will still not go away, due to the differences of interpretation.

If Allah`s Koran was as clear as it claims to be then there should be no problem with interpretation. Was Allah wrong to say that the Koran was clear?

read also QS. 17:36, QS. 2:62, QS. 2:286. QS. 6:152, QS. 7:42, QS. 65:7, the meaning of that "clear" is clear in term/sense God is still calculated/counted the missinterpretation as the correct interpretation as long its within the capacity of the interpretator.

sum wrote:At this time their knowledge was that of Judaism, Christianity and Paganism. Would their intentions based on this pre-Islam religious period be acceptable to Allah as this was their knowledge?

yes, as long they arent actually know that other religion is true viewtopic.php?f=22&t=14704&p=194459#p194459

Re: A question for the muslims. How many gods are there?

PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:23 pm
by frankie
Garudaman:

Allah is not the god of the Bible, because Allah was an already known and worshipped pre Islamic pagan deity, worshipped at the Kaaba,it was known as a “creator”god,but was distinct from the Bible God, because this Allah had a “wife” Al Lat and intercessing “daughters “the pagan goddesses Uzza and Manet,who were prayed to in times of infertility, and want.

The God of the Bible is known as Yahweh, the God of Israel and therefore the Jews and Christians, the same God that Abraham recognised and worshipped as the only God
Yahweh is a Father to mankind, whose love is unconditional towards humanity,whose commands are based on love of God, and neighbour, meaning all humanity.

Conversely, the Islamic Allah, is a father to no one, and only “loves “those who believe in him, 3.31-32, 30.43-45, which is conditional love.

“Allah does not “love” unbelievers” who he says are the worst of creatures”98.6
and the enemies of Islam and its people” Ibn Kathir 5.51
.who must be fought against, to be brought into submission to his laws,9.29.
which is what Mohammed the prophet of Islam said he had been called to do Sahih Al Bukhari 52.4.196 and did. Sahih Muslim: Book 019, Number 4294


It can be plainly deduced then that the Islamic Allah cannot be Yahweh, the God of the Bible.


http://wathanism.blogspot.co.uk/



Allāh (Arabic: الله) is the Meccan creator god and the supreme deity of the pre-Islamic Arabian pantheon, who was worshiped by the pagan Arabs primarily in times of despair, need and drought as he was believed to grant life-giving rain and intervene in times of extreme crisis. The three chief goddesses of Mecca; al-Lāt, al-'Uzzā and Manāt, were believed to be his daughters and were invoked alongside many other deities to intercede for the worshiper on behalf of Allāh: all the tribes of pre-Islamic Arabia venerated him as the High God and supreme being, but direct worship of him was rare. After creating the universe, Allāh then retired into the position of a silent and remote spectator who dwelt in 'Aliyyin (Hebrew: Elyon), the highest heaven, and only intervened in human affairs in extreme cases of drought or danger. In pre-Islamic Arabia, the practice of calling upon God or gods to send rain ('istisqā') continued with Islam although the practice of calling upon any other god other than Allah is a grave sin in Islam.

The pre-Islamic Arabian tribes who followed the native polytheistic religion, in particular the Banu Quraysh of Mecca, acknowledged Allāh to be the creator of the universe; the father of the gods, angels and jinn, and the supreme being who controls the mechanisms of the universe: the Arabian counterpart of the ancient Hebrew creator god El. The Jewish and Christian tribes of pre-Islamic Arabia called their Biblical god Allāh, although the Allāh of the Arab polytheists was distinct in concept to the Christian and Jewish Allāh. Officially, the god Allāh had no idol assigned to him, however; a black meteorite called al-Hajar al-Aswad was kept at a shrine in the corner of the Ka’aba: Allāh was believed to house a portion of his power within this mysterious black stone due to its alleged heavenly origins.


A few of the rituals of modern Islam are traceable to pagan roots, here are some practised before and after the emergence of Muhammad:

The tawaf ritual was performed both during the pilgrimage to a shrine (Hajj) or in home worship. In the home, the household would set up a baetyl and circumambulate it seven times whilst uttering the talbiyah invocation: seven being a mystical number to the pagan Arabs as it was significant of the seven planets. Reportedly, the pagan Arabs would perform the tawaf naked as they refused to approach their gods in the clothes they had sinned in although from an Islamic point of view, this practice was seen as blasphemous and disrespectful and as a prime example of pre-Islamic ignorance or jahiliyyah.


In pre-Islamic Arabian religion, the talbiyah was a prayer: a chant that was loudly acclaimed by worshipers as they completed a processional circuit around an idol, temple or sacred stone which was the abode of a divinity during a pilgrimage. The purpose of the talbiyah was to show gratitude to the deity or deities for assisting and supporting their devotees; in addition to placing emphasis on the benevolence and power of the deity.The main talbiyah in the pre-Islamic period differed from its incarnation post-Muhammad in that it proclaimed that there were other gods besides Allah although it asserted the fact that Allah was supreme even among the polytheists.

''Labbayka Allāhumma! Labbayka! Labbayka lā sharika laka, illa sharikun huwa laka, Tamlikuhu wa-mā malaka.''

This pre-Islamic talbiyah translates as:

''At thy service O Deity! At thy service! At thy service!
Thou hast no associate save the one who is thine,
Thou hast dominion over him and over what he possesseth.''

The point of this was to proclaim Allah's glory even over the other pagan gods who were powerless to intercede on behalf of the worshiper without the high god Allah's sanction. The word 'Allāhumma' was used as an invocation to any divine being during the pre-Islamic hajj and was not specific to Allāh alone. There was also another talbiyah of the Quraysh in specific veneration of the warrior god Hubal which goes as:

"Labbayka Allāhuma! Labbayka, innana laqah. Haramtana 'ala assinati ar-rimah. Yahsuduna an-nasu 'ala an-najah."

Translated into English, this talbiyah reads as

"At thy service O Deity! At thy service, we are immune. Thou hast protected us from the edges of the lances. People envy us for our success."

The talbiyah ritual was carried through into Islam as part of the Muslim hajj, although any references to polytheism were removed. The god Allah was considered to be the benevolent creator by the pagan Arabs and was believed to be remote, distant and inaccessible to the everyday man and woman; so other deities were called upon to intercede for Him or bring the worshiper closer to Him. The concept of shafā'a, that is, gods and goddesses interceding on behalf of Allah, is reflected especially in the myriad talbiyah that were chanted by the Quraysh and other Arab tribes as they circumambulated the Ka'aba, going as:

'Wa'l-Lāt-a wa'l Uzzā, wa Manāt-a al-thalithāta al-'ukhrā, Tilk al-gharāniq al-'ulā, wa inna shafā'ata-hunna la-turtajā.'

In English:

'By al-Lāt and al-'Uzzā, and Manāt, the third goddess, the other; Verily they are the most exalted cranes, and their intercession is to be hoped for.''

The talbiyah of the tribe of Banu Thaqif who lived in Ta'if, not far from Mecca, proclaimed Allah to be be superior to their tribal goddesses al-Lāt and al-'Uzzā; the verse going as:

'Uzzāhumu wa'l-Lātu fi yadayka, Dānat laka al-asnāmu ta'ziman ilayka, Qad adh'anat bi silmihā ilayka.'

Translated as:

'Al-'Uzzā and al-Lāt are in thy hands, Allāh; the idols submit to thee by glorifying thee; they approach thee submissively in devotion.'

Re: A question for the muslims. How many gods are there?

PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:42 pm
by manfred
Hi Frankie, from what I can gather in some of the hadith, before Mohammed stripped down the Kaaba, it had all kinds of deities in it, both as crude statues and pictures. In among all that also was representation of Jesus and Mary, according to one source.

This may explain where Mohammed got that odd idea of the trinity from... Allah, Jesus and Mary... just as in the Kaaba...

Of course we cannot be sure, but that seems quite a likely explanation.

Re: A question for the muslims. How many gods are there?

PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:55 pm
by Fernando
Nosuperstition wrote:
Fernando wrote:Garudaman, you haven't told us: is Allah the same as Zeus?


No Zeus worshippers were lax in their morals according to ohmyrus. Many others also consider present day Christianity with a far greater stress on forgiveness from a loving father or grand father type figure much similar to Graeco-Roman philosophies. Now even the lax laws of the present Western societies are derived from some periods of their paganic heritage jurisprudence. Of course, since word Elohim sometimes means plurality of gods in Hebrew, even Judeo-Christianity can be considered polytheistic.
Very interesting, Garudaman. So the Jewish and Christian gods are plural, and you say they're the same as Allah - so Allah must be plural. So maybe Zeus is one of the several too - faults among worshippers aren't unknown among Jews, Christians or Muslims either, so lax morals have no bearing on the matter.
Let's see: I think we may have got up to an absolute minimum of two gods now - Allah plus at least one other. Maybe more, depending on how many have multiple identities.

Re: A question for the muslims. How many gods are there?

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:32 pm
by frankie
manfred wrote:Hi Frankie, from what I can gather in some of the hadith, before Mohammed stripped down the Kaaba, it had all kinds of deities in it, both as crude statues and pictures. In among all that also was representation of Jesus and Mary, according to one source.

This may explain where Mohammed got that odd idea of the trinity from... Allah, Jesus and Mary... just as in the Kaaba...

Of course we cannot be sure, but that seems quite a likely explanation.


Hi Manfred

I would agree, Mary would be deemed wrongly part of the Trinity because of her close association with Jesus, highlighted by a statue of her holding the infant Jesus, in the Kaaba, statues of which can still be seen in Christian churches today.

Christian doctrine has never taught Mary to be part of the Trinity as you know, but Allah still got it wrong and claimed she is, proving yet again that Allah cannot be YHWH, the God of the Bible.

Re: A question for the muslims. How many gods are there?

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:21 am
by sum
Hello Garudaman

Your quote -
read also QS. 17:36, QS. 2:62, QS. 2:286. QS. 6:152, QS. 7:42, QS. 65:7, the meaning of that "clear" is clear in term/sense God is still calculated/counted the missinterpretation as the correct interpretation as long its within the capacity of the interpretator.

Do you really believe that the gobbledegook that you presented is anywhere near a sensible reply? It is utter nonsense and quite laughable. "Clear" means clear and nothing else. There is no way to redefine what that Koran means by "clear". Do not forget that "...none can change his words". What you are trying to say is that "clear" means whatever you want it to mean.

Please do not deviate from explaining how one god can give diametrically opposed guidance.

Would one god do this or is it the work of two gods?

sum

Re: A question for the muslims. How many gods are there?

PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:06 am
by sum
It is clear that Garudaman, who insists that there is only one god, can not come anywhere near explaining the diametrically opposed guidance from this one god.

One has to be false.

Garudaman is at a loss to explain why Islam is the truth and Christianity is false and so what does he do? He leaves the thread - a typical muslim trait when they run into difficulties.

sum

Re: A question for the muslims. How many gods are there?

PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:17 pm
by SAM
sum wrote:Would any muslim tell me how many gods they believe exist?

sum
The world's population today is 7.6 billion, so there's 7.6 billion gods .. you're stupid except Allah is ONE.

Re: A question for the muslims. How many gods are there?

PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:20 pm
by manfred
SAM, if you just calling people names or say they are stupid you cannot post here. Either you talk to people with respect or not all.

Re: A question for the muslims. How many gods are there?

PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:17 pm
by Fernando
SAM wrote:
sum wrote:Would any muslim tell me how many gods they believe exist?

sum
The world's population today is 7.6 billion, so there's 7.6 billion gods .. you're stupid except Allah is ONE.
One of 7.6 billion? Ypu'll be in trouble for saying that. :nono1:

Re: A question for the muslims. How many gods are there?

PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:03 pm
by SAM
Fernando wrote:
SAM wrote:
sum wrote:Would any muslim tell me how many gods they believe exist?

sum
The world's population today is 7.6 billion, so there's 7.6 billion gods .. you're stupid except Allah is ONE.
One of 7.6 billion? Ypu'll be in trouble for saying that. :nono1:
my intellectual superior atheist .. if you do not understand what I'm talking about .. make sure your mouth is shuddup.. :*)

Re: A question for the muslims. How many gods are there?

PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:33 pm
by manfred
OK, this is the last time I am telling you to mind you manners.

Re: A question for the muslims. How many gods are there?

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:22 pm
by Nosuperstition
Fernando wrote:
SAM wrote:
sum wrote:Would any muslim tell me how many gods they believe exist?

sum
The world's population today is 7.6 billion, so there's 7.6 billion gods .. you're stupid except Allah is ONE.
One of 7.6 billion? Ypu'll be in trouble for saying that. :nono1:


That is not what Hinduism's Advaita supposedly says. It means the individual soul is a spark that got separated from the Lord and hence will re-unite with him once it is cleansed of the physical impurities with which it associates itself during births and re-births. It is Jainism which says that upon getting completely cleansed, the individual soul itself becomes akin to god
or joins the pantheon of divinities much similar to beliefs in Pharoanic Egypt.

Re: A question for the muslims. How many gods are there?

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:28 pm
by Fernando
Talking of the multiplicity or otherwise of gods, a little while ago I was reading that the early Jews moved gradually from polytheism to monotheism. In between, they believed in, in effect, in one "chief god" who was the only one to be worshipped. The word used was henotheism, which seems to be much the same as monolatry, as described here:
https://www.gotquestions.org/henotheism.html and here:
http://booksnthoughts.com/ancient-jews-believed-in-the-existence-of-many-gods/
I suspect that either word might well describe the beliefs of the early Muslims.

Re: A question for the muslims. How many gods are there?

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:29 pm
by sum
Garudaman has not dismissed the Christian God and still believes that Allah exists. He says that there is only one god. This would imply that god is a schizophrenic who gives diametrically opposed guidance.

He has had plenty of time to consult his Imam and come back with some Islamic explanation but we are still waiting. Perhaps his Imam can not explain why one god gives diametrically opposed guidance.

If Garudaman falls at this fence perhaps Eagle might have some ideas.

sum

Re: A question for the muslims. How many gods are there?

PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:12 pm
by Garudaman
sum wrote:"Clear" means clear and nothing else

is the ground water, clear?

Re: A question for the muslims. How many gods are there?

PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:35 pm
by Eagle
The Quran, using simple logic and observation, besides the many appeals to the signs in the heavens and earth testifying to the unity of a Single, uncreated and Independant Cause, denies the simultaneous existence of several gods by stating they would naturally compete with oneanother, affecting the order of the universe, and issue contradicting commands in view of their own self-interests
17:111"And say: ‘(All) Praise is Allah’s, Who has not taken unto Him a son; nor has He got any partner in the Sovereignty; and there is not for Him any helper out of humbleness.’ And magnify Him with all magnificence".

A quick look at the mythologies of polytheist beliefs all throughout the history of mankind, confirms this
21:22"If there had been in them any gods except Allah, they (the heavens and the earth) would both have certainly been in a state of disorder"
17:42"If there were with Him gods as they say, then certainly they would have been able to seek a way to the Lord of power"
23:91"never was there with him any (other) god-- in that case would each god have certainly taken away what he created, and some of them would certainly have overpowered others; glory be to Allah above what they describe!".
If Allah had had partners and more than one god had ruled over the world, each of these gods would have managed and established his control over the realm of his own creations. Consequently different parts of the universe would end up being managed under different laws and systems. This would have given rise to chaos and disorder in the universe and this does not accord with the unity of creation that we witness around us, governed by laws that are the same everywhere in the heavens and the earth. Multiplicity inevitably leads to differences and in such a vast, intricately related universal system, these differences would lead to chaos.

Polytheism equally inevitably leads to the idea of gods begetting children and being begotten 16:20 succeeding oneanother or relying on one another in times of incapacity. This is equally denied by the concept of a single all encompassing God, preceding all things and outlasting them, incorporeal and self-sufficient. Sura ikhlas intricately and eloquently discusses and refutes that idea.

Re: A question for the muslims. How many gods are there?

PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:33 pm
by Fernando
Henotheism, dear chap. One boss god with other, lesser, gods. "One god to rule them all", to paraphrase :sml: