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Re: Islamic Theodicy/Why God Create Suffering

PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 8:00 am
by manfred
Here we go again. Somehow you know better what Christians actually believe.

I have already answered that point. Scroll up a bit.

Also what Christians do thank God for generally is not for having found the perfect shoes for wearing with a particular frock or winning the lottery or things like that. It is for the mercy and good will towards all mankind as revealing in Christ.

Re: Islamic Theodicy/Why God Create Suffering

PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 1:19 pm
by Garudaman
sum wrote:Hello Garudaman

Your reply avoids my question. The quote that you gave only talks about the person helping the one suffering but does not tell us why suffering is noble. Please explain.

sum

giving what your love thus lose what you love, dont make you suffer?

Re: Islamic Theodicy/Why God Create Suffering

PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 2:32 pm
by Garudaman
manfred wrote:
But let me come back to Christian belief, isn't it Christian belief that god has everything planned and everything that happens is part of that plan?


Christian belief is that there is an overall plan or reason in the creation such as it is, i.e. our lives are not pointless. It is not that God has a little sit down and decides each day, right, who shall we drown today? Who to electrocute? Who can we make miserable and laugh at them?

Think of a gardener: He sows and plans in order to produce a certain effect, a certain result, and he looks after his work. He does not control how each leaf of each plant will look or when it appears, what will be eaten by a slug or a rabbit, or exactly how many tomatoes each plant will yield. Plan does not mean absolute control.

James 4:13-15. Now listen, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money.” Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that."

Re: Islamic Theodicy/Why God Create Suffering

PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 2:35 pm
by sum
Hello Garudaman

Your quote -
giving what your love thus lose what you love, dont make you suffer?

I`m sorry but I do not understand your quote. Would you kindly clarify?

sum

Re: Islamic Theodicy/Why God Create Suffering

PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 2:52 pm
by Garudaman
if you giving your stuff which you love to other people, so you lose your stuff which you love, whether you will not be suffering?

Re: Islamic Theodicy/Why God Create Suffering

PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:40 pm
by sum
Hello Garudaman

You still have not explained what is noble about suffering.

If I am the subject of a freak accident which is not my fault and for which I am not to blame, why is my suffering noble?

Who says that it is noble? Would I get more hasanats for being noble in these circumstances?

sum

Re: Islamic Theodicy/Why God Create Suffering

PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:49 pm
by Garudaman
human don't like suffering, right? thus, it need big struggle to face suffering, right?

Re: Islamic Theodicy/Why God Create Suffering

PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 5:27 pm
by manfred
Garudaman wrote:
manfred wrote:
But let me come back to Christian belief, isn't it Christian belief that god has everything planned and everything that happens is part of that plan?


Christian belief is that there is an overall plan or reason in the creation such as it is, i.e. our lives are not pointless. It is not that God has a little sit down and decides each day, right, who shall we drown today? Who to electrocute? Who can we make miserable and laugh at them?

Think of a gardener: He sows and plans in order to produce a certain effect, a certain result, and he looks after his work. He does not control how each leaf of each plant will look or when it appears, what will be eaten by a slug or a rabbit, or exactly how many tomatoes each plant will yield. Plan does not mean absolute control.

James 4:13-15. Now listen, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money.” Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that."



OK, perhaps I should introduce a very old distinction from scholastic theology:

There are two quote different types of "will". Thomas Aquinas called the voluntas agens and voluntas tollens in Latin. Sounds complex, but really is very simple:

"voluntas agens" means "the will to do" and "voluntas tollens" means the "will to allow".

If you have a will TO DO something you generally follow it up by and action. I want to eat some ice cream. So I go to the fridge and get some.

If you have a will TO ALLOW something you generally do very little if anything as a result. It is hot, but I can't be asked to jump in the pool. I just put up with the heat.

People can change from one state of will to another usually by a change of circumstances. If the heat gets really bad I may jump in the pool after all.

The verse you speak of is about God's "voluntas tollens". It speaks of God "tolerating" something, not of making it happen.

Re: Islamic Theodicy/Why God Create Suffering

PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:53 pm
by sum
Hello Garudaman

Your quote -
human don't like suffering, right? thus, it need big struggle to face suffering, right?

That does not make suffering "noble".

sum

Re: Islamic Theodicy/Why God Create Suffering

PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:36 pm
by iffo
manfred wrote:Here we go again. Somehow you know better what Christians actually believe.

I have already answered that point. Scroll up a bit.

Also what Christians do thank God for generally is not for having found the perfect shoes for wearing with a particular frock or winning the lottery or things like that. It is for the mercy and good will towards all mankind as revealing in Christ.


That's actually not true. People do thank for things like winning an award or passing some exam. They are thanking god for things happen to their life, not for mercy towards whole mankind etc.

hriz7.jpg

Re: Islamic Theodicy/Why God Create Suffering

PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 12:37 am
by manfred
Good grief. It seems nothing is sinking in with you at all.


That's actually not true.


Yes it is and it s very rude to suggest I am lying to you.

Now, as to the rest....


Yes of course people sometimes thank God for passing an exam. Do they believe God rigged the exam in their favour though?

In reality you pass an exam by studying properly. I have not met anyone who prayed to pass an exam, and then passed it without the slightest effort on his part. Have you?

Why do people thank God for passing an exam? Because the believe that their perseverance in preparing for it was not purely due to their own efforts. They also had things helping them which are not down to them, a level of intelligence with which they were born, or a sense of responsibility, the ability to endure hard work and such things. So it should be those things you should be thankful for, and not a mere pass on an exam. Note that all the things I mention make the passing of an exam POSSIBLE, but not inevitable. You can be highly intelligent but you can decide not to use that gift to study hard.

Sometimes people also thank God for having had a narrow escape in an accident. This is because they think it may be due to an exceptional intervention. This may or may not be true. I tend to be quite sceptical about such claims. But even if that were to be true, it does not mean God is controlling every little thing everywhere at all times. One simply does not follow from the other. It is about an EXCEPTIONAL intervention.

As to some silly actors thanking God for an "Oscar", ask them about that, how do I know, but to me that looks like a bit of virtue signalling, specially if done in a public speech, and they thank God and Jesus right alongside with their mother, their hairdresser and their their pet poodle. You are the the first person I met who thinks he can learn about Christian teachings from Oscar acceptance speeches.

But even actors have things "given" to them, out of their control, as not everybody can act well.

It is our TALENTS we can be grateful for, but it is our duty to make the best of them, whatever they are.

Also you have not processed the distinction between voluntas agens and voluntas tollens, see above.

Re: Islamic Theodicy/Why God Create Suffering

PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:18 am
by iffo
manfred wrote:Good grief. It seems nothing is sinking in with you at all.


That's actually not true.


Yes it is and it s very rude to suggest I am lying to you.

Now, as to the rest....


Yes of course people sometimes thank God for passing an exam. Do they believe God rigged the exam in their favour though?

In reality you pass an exam by studying properly. I have not met anyone who prayed to pass an exam, and then passed it without the slightest effort on his part. Have you?

Why do people thank God for passing an exam? Because the believe that their perseverance in preparing for it was not purely due to their own efforts. They also had things helping them which are not down to them, a level of intelligence with which they were born, or a sense of responsibility, the ability to endure hard work and such things. So it should be those things you should be thankful for, and not a mere pass on an exam. Note that all the things I mention make the passing of an exam POSSIBLE, but not inevitable. You can be highly intelligent but you can decide not to use that gift to study hard.

Sometimes people also thank God for having had a narrow escape in an accident. This is because they think it may be due to an exceptional intervention. This may or may not be true. I tend to be quite sceptical about such claims. But even if that were to be true, it does not mean God is controlling every little thing everywhere at all times. One simply does not follow from the other. It is about an EXCEPTIONAL intervention.

As to some silly actors thanking God for an "Oscar", ask them about that, how do I know, but to me that looks like a bit of virtue signalling, specially if done in a public speech, and they thank God and Jesus right alongside with their mother, their hairdresser and their their pet poodle. You are the the first person I met who thinks he can learn about Christian teachings from Oscar acceptance speeches.

But even actors have things "given" to them, out of their control, as not everybody can act well.

It is our TALENTS we can be grateful for, but it is our duty to make the best of them, whatever they are.

Also you have not processed the distinction between voluntas agens and voluntas tollens, see above.


All believer in religion have to lie to some extent you are no different.

manfred
Yes of course people sometimes thank God for passing an exam. Do they believe God rigged the exam in their favour though?

I don't know that's a question for them to answer, what they are thanking god for. But my point is Chrsistians thank god, because they think god helped them some how. That's what they believe in, that's the Christanity they know and that's how majority is. To suggest otherwise is not correct. Your belief even though makes more sense do not represent majority of Christians and christanity they have learned and know. Same goes for voluntas v and voluntas tollens, majority does not even know about it, they think what I mentioned that god intervenes in their life, that's why they are thanking god for little things.

Re: Islamic Theodicy/Why God Create Suffering

PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:46 am
by manfred
All believer in religion have to lie to some extent you are no different.


You are outrageously rude, and to say that having a religion makes you a liar is saying rather a lot about you.

There is no point talking to a man who will dismiss anything you say as a lie and sets himself up as supreme authority in a religion he never even followed.

So when Christians say a prayer before a meal their don't thank God for creating a situation in which we can grow and prepare food for themselves, and to remind themselves of the duty to share what they have. Iffo knows better. Christians believe that God went to the supermarket and bought the food there, and he cooked it in the kitchen, and served it. God the Harry Potter house elf. That is what Christians say thank you for. Right Iffo?

Iffo for pope, anyone?

Re: Islamic Theodicy/Why God Create Suffering

PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:04 am
by Fernando
iffo wrote:All believer in religion have to lie to some extent you are no different.
You're making the same mistake as Garudaman with his "fake" tafsirs. You can reasonably claim that all believers in religion are mistaken - deluded even - but they would only be lying if they knew all along that their "beliefs" were wrong. But then they wouldn't be believers, would they?

Re: Islamic Theodicy/Why God Create Suffering

PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:33 am
by manfred
I agree Fernando, but I would want to add that if you want to dismiss a religion you would at least try to find out the actual teachings, and not make a caricature version of a religion and then conclude all people subscribing to that are both very stupid and lie in everything they say about their beliefs.

I don't want to convince iffo of anything, but his permanent strawmen get on my nerves. Sure, he can believe that Christianity is false, but he is not in a position to tell Christians what they ought to believe so he can ridicule them.

Re: Islamic Theodicy/Why God Create Suffering

PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:20 pm
by iffo
Fernando wrote:
iffo wrote:All believer in religion have to lie to some extent you are no different.
You're making the same mistake as Garudaman with his "fake" tafsirs. You can reasonably claim that all believers in religion are mistaken - deluded even - but they would only be lying if they knew all along that their "beliefs" were wrong. But then they wouldn't be believers, would they?


Some time we lie to others just for the sake of argument, but deep down we know what we are saying is not really correct and does not make much sense. Sometime we lie to ourselves by having a blind eye and looking the other way... But you are right, 'deluded' is perhaps a better choice of word

Re: Islamic Theodicy/Why God Create Suffering

PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:22 pm
by iffo
manfred wrote:
All believer in religion have to lie to some extent you are no different.


You are outrageously rude, and to say that having a religion makes you a liar is saying rather a lot about you.

There is no point talking to a man who will dismiss anything you say as a lie and sets himself up as supreme authority in a religion he never even followed.

So when Christians say a prayer before a meal their don't thank God for creating a situation in which we can grow and prepare food for themselves, and to remind themselves of the duty to share what they have. Iffo knows better. Christians believe that God went to the supermarket and bought the food there, and he cooked it in the kitchen, and served it. God the Harry Potter house elf. That is what Christians say thank you for. Right Iffo?

Iffo for pope, anyone?


I did not call you 'liar" initially. I said "that is not correct" You tuned that into 'lie' thing and then i went along with it. I take it back, Sorry ..you are not a liar, more appropriate word will be as Fernando suggested 'Deluded' or 'Mistaken'

manfred
Christians believe that God went to the supermarket and bought the food there, and he cooked it in the kitchen,

Now you are going to an extreme. I never said they think god doing all this, neither any Christian think this way.

If Christians don't believe god intervene in their lives then their is no point asking for his help and thanking him for personal items, the concept of prayer goes down the toilet if god does not help. But people do pray and ask god for help, don't they? That's how majority of Christians who believe in god and church are . Your version of Christanity is some what different, you saying Christians don't believe god intervene in personal lives and matters of this world. He is out their as silent spectator. That' where I disagree with you

Image

I don' t want to be pop, because in doing so I will have to compromise truth. I am sure their are many many things pop has to look other way , that's the only way he can stick to his religion of birth. There is no other choice and I feel for every believe in religion and sympathasize with him or her. Its unfortunate but that's the reality. This life and world is a mystery and we have very few answers.

Re: Islamic Theodicy/Why God Create Suffering

PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 7:45 pm
by manfred
If Christians don't believe god intervene in their lives then their is no point asking for his help and thanking him for personal items, the concept of prayer goes down the toilet if god does not help. But people do pray and ask god for help, don't they?


Now, that is also not quite what I explained to you.

God has dramatically "intervened" by revealing himself fully in Christ and by walking and living among us. He has shared is all that is human, the joy and the sadness, the pleasure and the pain, up to death. This is a very powerful message. In fact, the whole of the bible is about God's interaction with man. But all of that was on Gods terms, with God's plan and purpose, the writers of the bible tell us.

It is also clear that the same writers see the world God created to be subject to a number of "laws" and built-in rules and patterns, and while God is not bound by these rules, he only very rarely chooses to break them. So while we can pray for a miracle it would be strange to expect one. By definition such things are the rare exception. By rights, I should have died from cancer some years ago. I have not, and I am very grateful for my time and try to make good use of it. Do I call it a miracle? No. Why not? Because not everything I cannot explain is a miracle. I simply accept that at this point I cannot properly explain it, and my continuous breathing is also puzzling the medical doctor who gave me a year to live 9 years ago.

The cardinal Christian prayer asks for very little. It asks mostly for "your will be done." The point of prayer is a a communication, and not a presentation of demands. The making of demands is more the Muslim idea... give Allah this and that, which he needs or likes, and you get something back in return. A Christian prayer is in its purest form a moment of dwelling with God. It is about listening as much as about talking.

Have a look of a Christian prayer, if it interests you.
http://universalis.com/vespers.htm
There are 7 prayer services like this each day, said by all the monks and nuns in all the world. They mostly consist of a song, then some chants, usually from the psalms, a reading of a biblical text, a period of silence, the our father and a concluding prayer.

The concept of a prayer like this "my wife has left me. Make her come back and I do something for you, God and if you don't I stop praying." is a flawed one and actually quite offensive to many Christians. A woman demanding "give me a child" has not worked out what prayer is. A better prayer would be to ask for help to take life as it comes, and to grow from any experience presented.

As I now said three times, Christians accept that God can and sometimes does (but not often) directly intervene in the running of things, but as a rule that is not what prayer is about. It is mostly about taking a step back, a time of reflection, a moment of focus, to work out what to do next in life. It is asking God for spiritual focus, and not this or that special favour.

Your concept of prayer does not go to the toilet, it has always been there. However, it never has been what Jews or Christians understood prayer to be.

Have a read of the biblical tale of Job. It has quite a lot to say about this topic, if you have the time and the will to listen.

If you want to hammer out a trade deal with God, the mosque is your place, in a church you would not find a lot of understanding for that idea.

Finally, as in your view I am deluded, I thank you for not bothering me with demanding explanations to things that do not interest you; you give yourself all the answers you want to hear, so there is nothing you need to ask. I know you have a hatred for God and for all people with any belief which makes it next to impossible to process certain types of information; I cannot help you with that, it is something that is left over from your Islamic past, and your uncritical pretty much whole-sale acceptance of a certain professor Dawkins' comments.

In fact, he raises nothing that has not been discussed and resolved in theology for centuries, and if you want to read a reaction to his book by other academic writers, have a look here:

http://www.equip.org/article/the-god-delusion/

Re: Islamic Theodicy/Why God Create Suffering

PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:09 pm
by iffo
manfred wrote:
If Christians don't believe god intervene in their lives then their is no point asking for his help and thanking him for personal items, the concept of prayer goes down the toilet if god does not help. But people do pray and ask god for help, don't they?


Now, that is also not quite what I explained to you.

God has dramatically "intervened" by revealing himself fully in Christ and by walking and living among us. He has shared is all that is human, the joy and the sadness, the pleasure and the pain, up to death. This is a very powerful message. In fact, the whole of the bible is about God's interaction with man. But all of that was on Gods terms, with God's plan and purpose, the writers of the bible tell us.

It is also clear that the same writers see the world God created to be subject to a number of "laws" and built-in rules and patterns, and while God is not bound by these rules, he only very rarely chooses to break them. So while we can pray for a miracle it would be strange to expect one. By definition such things are the rare exception. By rights, I should have died from cancer some years ago. I have not, and I am very grateful for my time and try to make good use of it. Do I call it a miracle? No. Why not? Because not everything I cannot explain is a miracle. I simply accept that at this point I cannot properly explain it, and my continuous breathing is also puzzling the medical doctor who gave me a year to live 9 years ago.

The cardinal Christian prayer asks for very little. It asks mostly for "your will be done." The point of prayer is a a communication, and not a presentation of demands. The making of demands is more the Muslim idea... give Allah this and that, which he needs or likes, and you get something back in return. A Christian prayer is in its purest form a moment of dwelling with God. It is about listening as much as about talking.

Have a look of a Christian prayer, if it interests you.
http://universalis.com/vespers.htm
There are 7 prayer services like this each day, said by all the monks and nuns in all the world. They mostly consist of a song, then some chants, usually from the psalms, a reading of a biblical text, a period of silence, the our father and a concluding prayer.

The concept of a prayer like this "my wife has left me. Make her come back and I do something for you, God and if you don't I stop praying." is a flawed one and actually quite offensive to many Christians. A woman demanding "give me a child" has not worked out what prayer is. A better prayer would be to ask for help to take life as it comes, and to grow from any experience presented.

As I now said three times, Christians accept that God can and sometimes does (but not often) directly intervene in the running of things, but as a rule that is not what prayer is about. It is mostly about taking a step back, a time of reflection, a moment of focus, to work out what to do next in life. It is asking God for spiritual focus, and not this or that special favour.

Your concept of prayer does not go to the toilet, it has always been there. However, it never has been what Jews or Christians understood prayer to be.

Have a read of the biblical tale of Job. It has quite a lot to say about this topic, if you have the time and the will to listen.

If you want to hammer out a trade deal with God, the mosque is your place, in a church you would not find a lot of understanding for that idea.

Finally, as in your view I am deluded, I thank you for not bothering me with demanding explanations to things that do not interest you; you give yourself all the answers you want to hear, so there is nothing you need to ask. I know you have a hatred for God and for all people with any belief which makes it next to impossible to process certain types of information; I cannot help you with that, it is something that is left over from your Islamic past, and your uncritical pretty much whole-sale acceptance of a certain professor Dawkins' comments.

In fact, he raises nothing that has not been discussed and resolved in theology for centuries, and if you want to read a reaction to his book by other academic writers, have a look here:

http://www.equip.org/article/the-god-delusion/


Only comment I have, I don't hate god. Why should I. I don't know who he is. Though I don't believe any religion has anything to do with any god, I do think there got to be some super power that has created everything, unlike Dawkins. Whether it intervene in world affairs and our personal lives or do nothing I don't know. I still pray like ' if there is god and you intervene and listen, please help me'' or thank god like ' if there is god and you have any role to play in this, thank you''. Though I think whoever created all this , does not interfere in anything.

Re: Islamic Theodicy/Why God Create Suffering

PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 1:16 pm
by idesigner1
God didn't create any suffering as we don't know what he created, when he did it how he did it, why he did it!

Almost all religions created lots of suffering for their own benefits as none can make life better for humans in this life. They all tell us if you suffer lot in this life, it will be lot better in the next!!What a stupid idea! :x

Islam is lot stupider than others . It tells us Allah created everything, he knows everything, he does everything and finally he will punish and reward all in the next. If you disbelieve or doubt him his followers will kill you in this world and Super Arab or Allah will punish you in next!. No any finer points of discourse about its theology.Even a child has better logic. What you can expect from a dumb desert dweller!!

Only technology and science made life lot more bettert, comfortable livable and enjoyable.