Islamic Theodicy/Why God Create Suffering

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iffo
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Re: Islamic Theodicy/Why God Create Suffering

Post by iffo »

@Guardman
Earth quick comes in which a woman losses her all 3 children, who is behind the pain and suffering of that woman??
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Fernando
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Re: Islamic Theodicy/Why God Create Suffering

Post by Fernando »

Garudaman wrote:human want suffering
Speak for yourself! We're not all Muslims here, remember.
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Re: Islamic Theodicy/Why God Create Suffering

Post by iffo »

Garudaman wrote:you mean earthquake? God, since He is creator of human will.
So God caused all the pain and suffering to that innocent human ....with no shame
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Re: Islamic Theodicy/Why God Create Suffering

Post by sum »

Hello Garudaman

Your quote -
there's no shame in noble deed/purpose.

What is noble about causing deep suffering? What is the purpose of causing deep suffering?

sum
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Fernando
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Re: Islamic Theodicy/Why God Create Suffering

Post by Fernando »

Garudaman wrote:there's no shame in noble deed/purpose.
What about ignoble need with noble purpose? Does the end justify the means? Was it right in mediaeval times to burn people to death to supposedly save their souls, for instance? Was it right in modern times for IS to burn a pilot to death to support their Caliphate?
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah
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Re: Islamic Theodicy/Why God Create Suffering

Post by iffo »

sum wrote:Hello Garudaman

Your quote -
there's no shame in noble deed/purpose.

What is noble about causing deep suffering? What is the purpose of causing deep suffering?

sum
What kind a silly reply is that. What is noble about causing pain and suffering to an innocent woman seeing her babies buried under the mud.... do you even imagine the pain she goes through

How about if someone kills your children right in front of your eyes and make you suffer and cry and call it a noble act. You realize how crazy your statement was. Is this Islam that has deprived you of any empathy ?
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Re: Islamic Theodicy/Why God Create Suffering

Post by manfred »

There is no simple answer to this question, because there are many causes of suffering.

Some is caused by our own actions, some is simply part of life.

God did not promise an easy life. In Christianity, if God himself did shy away from suffering it means we should also accept that our life will take all kinds of twists and turns too.

It is neither the pleasures nor the pain nor the triumphs nor the failures in our lives that define it. It is how we manage to grow through them all.

The belief Christians hold, and it is a belief, so don't ask for proof, is that ALL of our life, the good, the bad, the exciting and the dull have all something somewhere to help us grow, and it is part of the challenges of life to find it. Suffering will in the end cease, and injustice made right, but we are not spared what God did not shy away from.

If we allow suffering to result is loss of hope, in despair, and in blame, then we are missing the point.

A good introduction to this vast topic is perhaps the allegorical tale of Job in the bible. It focuses on the importance on the right response to suffering.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"
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Re: Islamic Theodicy/Why God Create Suffering

Post by iffo »

manfred wrote:There is no simple answer to this question, because there are many causes of suffering.

Some is caused by our own actions, some is simply part of life.

God did not promise an easy life. In Christianity, if God himself did shy away from suffering it means we should also accept that our life will take all kinds of twists and turns too.

It is neither the pleasures nor the pain nor the triumphs nor the failures in our lives that define it. It is how we manage to grow through them all.

The belief Christians hold, and it is a belief, so don't ask for proof, is that ALL of our life, the good, the bad, the exciting and the dull have all something somewhere to help us grow, and it is part of the challenges of life to find it. Suffering will in the end cease, and injustice made right, but we are not spared what God did not shy away from.

If we allow suffering to result is loss of hope, in despair, and in blame, then we are missing the point.

A good introduction to this vast topic is perhaps the allegorical tale of Job in the bible. It focuses on the importance on the right response to suffering.
If suffering from natural disaster like flood, tornado, earth quake is part of life and has nothing to do with God, god did not cause earth quake or flood, then one can understand that explaination. .
But if someone saying god was behind it and it was part of god's plan to see a wave of water coming and taking a mother's 3 little children from her lap or a children seeing their mother taken away by water wave while they are crying helplessly , and saying that it was good for them ... makes no sense. That god is just as brutal and cruel as any human being or a beast.
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Re: Islamic Theodicy/Why God Create Suffering

Post by Chiclets »

iffo wrote:
If suffering from natural disaster like flood, tornado, earth quake is part of life and has nothing to do with God, god did not cause earth quake or flood, then one can understand that explaination. .
But if someone saying god was behind it and it was part of god's plan to see a wave of water coming and taking a mother's 3 little children from her lap or a children seeing their mother taken away by water wave while they are crying helplessly , and saying that it was good for them ... makes no sense. That god is just as brutal and cruel as any human being or a beast.
All I can say about theism is :clueless:

Whenever there is such a natural disaster there are some survivor stories and you see them survivors claim that it was definitely god who somehow saved them, it is so comical, I feel like punching those mofos on their faces, your fucking god was saving you all this while at the same time letting thousands perish.

Theism and theists make no sense :clueless:
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Re: Islamic Theodicy/Why God Create Suffering

Post by manfred »

That god is just as brutal and cruel as any human being or a beast.
Yes you are very good at missing the point iffo, as always.

As a parent, do you also tie up your children so that they cannot move and do any harm to themselves, wrap them in bubble wrap perhaps?

Is it really that hard to understand? The control-freak God is your obsession and not the belief held in Christianity. God created an ever changing universe following a number of laws, but otherwise evolving on its own. Similar humans have a number of limitations, but also freedom of choice.

God neither directs every action of ever person or animal, nor forces events to occur. He made a world of possibilities. You can blame him for allowing the possibility of a flood to occur, if you must.

Chicklet's point is a more rational one. If God save someone from a natural distaster and not another there is a question to answer.

To be honest I cannot tell if God ever really saved anyone from a disaster. I can understand why people who have had a very lucky escape may say that though. They may be right they may be wrong, how can we tell? It is no more than expression of a belief.

The Christian belief is not that God protects everyone from accident and disaster, but that God will in the end righten things and not abandon those who suffered.
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Re: Islamic Theodicy/Why God Create Suffering

Post by Garudaman »

sum wrote:What is noble about causing suffering? What is the purpose of causing suffering?
for/to causing noble deed (give from which you love) :
QS. 3:92. Never will you attain the good [reward] until you spend [in the way of God] from that which you love. And whatever you spend - indeed, God is Knowing of it.

that the better/special gift, is the gift from that which human love/the gift that comes from struggle, then is make sense if God create suffering for human so human can give worship to God with struggle.
Last edited by Garudaman on Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Garudaman
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Re: Islamic Theodicy/Why God Create Suffering

Post by Garudaman »

iffo wrote:What kind a silly reply is that. What is noble about causing pain and suffering to an innocent woman seeing her babies buried under the mud.... do you even imagine the pain she goes through
that's the point, give/do good when happy is easy, now imagine how difficult to give/do good when suffers, thus imagine how glorious it.
iffo wrote:You realize how crazy your statement was. Is this Islam that has deprived you of any empathy?
I know it sounds crazy, but you can't deny the truth of that logic.
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Re: Islamic Theodicy/Why God Create Suffering

Post by sum »

Hello Garudaman

Your reply avoids my question. The quote that you gave only talks about the person helping the one suffering but does not tell us why suffering is noble. Please explain.

sum
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Re: Islamic Theodicy/Why God Create Suffering

Post by iffo »

manfred wrote:
That god is just as brutal and cruel as any human being or a beast.
Yes you are very good at missing the point iffo, as always.

As a parent, do you also tie up your children so that they cannot move and do any harm to themselves, wrap them in bubble wrap perhaps?

Is it really that hard to understand? The control-freak God is your obsession and not the belief held in Christianity. God created an ever changing universe following a number of laws, but otherwise evolving on its own. Similar humans have a number of limitations, but also freedom of choice.

God neither directs every action of ever person or animal, nor forces events to occur. He made a world of possibilities. You can blame him for allowing the possibility of a flood to occur, if you must.

Chicklet's point is a more rational one. If God save someone from a natural distaster and not another there is a question to answer.

To be honest I cannot tell if God ever really saved anyone from a disaster. I can understand why people who have had a very lucky escape may say that though. They may be right they may be wrong, how can we tell? It is no more than expression of a belief.

The Christian belief is not that God protects everyone from accident and disaster, but that God will in the end righten things and not abandon those who suffered.
I did not miss the point, you just eager to start an argument. I have no problem with what you wrote and it makes sense. That's why I said.

"If suffering from natural disaster like flood, tornado, earth quake is part of life and has nothing to do with God, god did not cause earth quake or flood, then one can understand that explaination. "

But let me come back to Christian belief, isn't it Christian belief that god has everything planned and everything that happens is part of that plan?
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Re: Islamic Theodicy/Why God Create Suffering

Post by iffo »

Garudaman wrote:
iffo wrote:What kind a silly reply is that. What is noble about causing pain and suffering to an innocent woman seeing her babies buried under the mud.... do you even imagine the pain she goes through
that's the point, give/do good when happy is easy, now imagine how difficult to give/do good when suffers, thus imagine how glorious it.
iffo wrote:You realize how crazy your statement was. Is this Islam that has deprived you of any empathy?
I know it sounds crazy, but you can't deny the truth of that logic.

There is no logic Garudaman. Its logical to ill-logical people and unfortunately you are one of them, thanks to your religion. Its like a crazy father to test how much his son loves him pull his nails and burn his skin every day , and beat and rape his mother in front of him to test him. Now you guys are what I call desperato. You are desperate to stick to your forefathers religion and have justification for every thing wrong with your belief. Had Muhammad or your religion had asked you guys to have sex with your sisters and daughters I am sure you would have had a justification for that as well today and would have been defending that, that is the level of your desperateness.
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Re: Islamic Theodicy/Why God Create Suffering

Post by manfred »

But let me come back to Christian belief, isn't it Christian belief that god has everything planned and everything that happens is part of that plan?
Christian belief is that there is an overall plan or reason in the creation such as it is, i.e. our lives are not pointless. It is not that God has a little sit down and decides each day, right, who shall we drown today? Who to electrocute? Who can we make miserable and laugh at them?

Think of a gardener: He sows and plans in order to produce a certain effect, a certain result, and he looks after his work. He does not control how each leaf of each plant will look or when it appears, what will be eaten by a slug or a rabbit, or exactly how many tomatoes each plant will yield. Plan does not mean absolute control.
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Re: Islamic Theodicy/Why God Create Suffering

Post by iffo »

manfred wrote:
But let me come back to Christian belief, isn't it Christian belief that god has everything planned and everything that happens is part of that plan?
Christian belief is that there is an overall plan or reason in the creation such as it is, i.e. our lives are not pointless. It is not that God has a little sit down and decides each day, right, who shall we drown today? Who to electrocute? Who can we make miserable and laugh at them?

Think of a gardener: He sows and plans in order to produce a certain effect, a certain result, and he looks after his work. He does not control how each leaf of each plant will look or when it appears, what will be eaten by a slug or a rabbit, or exactly how many tomatoes each plant will yield. Plan does not mean absolute control.
We see Christians thanking god all the time. I think that makes no sense as we established god does not interfere in our lives.
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