Islamic Theodicy/Why God Create Suffering

[Garudaman]

so this is how the story :

QS. 7:172. And [mention] when your Lord took from the children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants and made them testify of themselves, [saying to them], "Am I not your Lord?" They said, "Yes, we have testified." [This] - lest you should say on the day of Resurrection, "Indeed, we were of this unaware."

QS. 23:115. Then did you think that We created you uselessly and that to Us you would not be returned?"

QS. 51:56. And I did not create the jinn and human except to worship Me.

God create/design human with the will of worship to God, & due to the fact :

QS. 3:92. Never will you attain the good [reward] until you spend [in the way of God] from that which you love. And whatever you spend - indeed, God is Knowing of it.

that the better/special gift, is the gift from that which human love/the gift that comes from struggle, then is make sense if God create suffering for human so human can give worship to God with struggle.

but it should be noted, this does not mean to suggest human to seek suffering, since give is also meant seeking the success of give :

QS. 9:122. And it is not for the believers to go forth [to battle] all at once. For there should separate from every division of them a group [remaining] to obtain understanding in the religion and warn their people when they return to them that they might be cautious.

QS. 16:106. Whoever disbelieves in God after his belief [upon them is wrath from God] except for one who is forced [to renounce his religion] while his heart is secure in faith [upon them there's no sin]. But those who [willingly] open their breasts to disbelief, upon them is wrath from God, and for them is a great punishment;

[manfred]

Selamat datang lagi, Garudaman, good to see you back.

You have chosen a very big and very difficult subject, I hope we get many people joining in.

[Garudaman]

hello manfred, nice to meet you again as well!

[Fernando]

Hello Garudaman, welcome back.
Not my territory, I'm afraid.

[manfred]

I wonder if you would ever say to your wife... "hey, let's make a baby. She can wash the dishes when she is old enough.I know, if it's a boy he can do the garden and wash the car."

Most likely not.... You love your kids, just because they are your kids, right? OK sometimes you get mad at them when they do something stupid or annoying, but no matter what, you always love them, and you simply would never ever do anything to hurt them.

It is not therefore somewhat odd, this idea that God makes man purely so that he has someone to worship him? I thought Allah has no needs....

Some suffering, sure is the result of people doing bad things or stupid things. But others? Dengue fever, for example? A baby born deformed?

[Garudaman]

I wonder if you would ever say to your wife... "hey, let's make a baby. She can wash the dishes when she is old enough.I know, if it's a boy he can do the garden and wash the car."

Most likely not.... You love your kids, just because they are your kids, right? OK sometimes you get mad at them when they do something stupid or annoying, but no matter what, you always love them, and you simply would never ever do anything to hurt them.

quite the opposite, no parents who don't want their children to be useful for others.

It is not therefore somewhat odd, this idea that God makes man purely so that he has someone to worship him? I thought Allah has no needs....

not odd if the highest happiness is worship to God/truth.

Some suffering, sure is the result of people doing bad things or stupid things. But others? Dengue fever, for example? A baby born deformed?

that odd comment, as if I said that suffering is caused by human.

[manfred]

You misunderstand, garudaman, or maybe I misread what you mean. Be patient, we come back to that once we clear things up a bit. OK, let's do it your way, and instead of me jumping into the topic, ask you first to explain.

As a Muslim you believe Allah is just and Allah is forgiving. You also know about suffering. So far you say the source of happiness is found in serving Allah. However even that does not protect you from suffering.... Or are all Muslims always 100% happy and immune to suffering?

BTW about all parents wanting their kids to be useful, you should meet some of the younger parents over here... most of them think everybody and everything revolves around their kids and everybody should be useful TO THEM...

There are some ways in which society is healthier in Asia... and others in which it is worse.

[Garudaman]

As a Muslim you believe Allah is just and Allah is forgiving. You also know about suffering. So far you say the source of happiness is found in serving Allah. However even that does not protect you from suffering.... Or are all Muslims always 100% happy and immune to suffering?

as QS. 3:92 logic explained, suffering/struggle is needed for higher happiness, so the goal was never so Muslims to avoid suffering, but to avoid confusion about the reason why God created suffering.

BTW about all parents wanting their kids to be useful, you should meet some of the younger parents over here... most of them think everybody and everything revolves around their kids and everybody should be useful TO THEM...

There are some ways in which society is healthier in Asia... and others in which it is worse.

younger/not wise/not ideal parents can't be used as standard.

[manfred]

younger/not wise/not ideal parents can't be used as standard.

Tell me about it.... I only mentioned that because you said "all parents".

3:92 logic explained, suffering/struggle is needed for higher happiness, so the goal was never so Muslims to avoid suffering, but to avoid confusion about the reason why God created suffering.

Now you really confuse me... 3:92 seems to me a warning against being a hoarder or money or being greedy or mean. It does not really have suffering as a theme. Unless you mean, if you give something to the poor that is suffering?

And then....

"God creates suffering so that Muslims (only?) avoid confusion why God created suffering?"

A man beats his son so that he is not confused about being beaten?

God creates a goose so that people are not confused why he made the goose?

This really needs to be explained, it makes no sense to me, and it probably is a language thing.

As to the other point suffering is needed for higher happiness, again, could you explain that too?

And while I am writing let me give you a simple thought on this:

As we move through life, many things happen to us. We class some of these things as "good" and some as "bad". In reality events are just events. We want love, perhaps money, and we don't want to be sick or poor and hungry.

It is our DESIRE to have good things to happen and our FEAR of bad things, that give events a "value". Without our desire they would simply be things that happen.

If we had no desires, therefore, we could accept all things equally, see good and bad (or neither) in all things, and in the end nothing could really make us suffer.

[Garudaman]

Now you really confuse me... 3:92 seems to me a warning against being a hoarder or money or being greedy or mean. It does not really have suffering as a theme. Unless you mean, if you give something to the poor that is suffering?

give what you love is suffering, isn't?

"God creates suffering so that Muslims (only?) avoid confusion why God created suffering?"

you ask, whether the explain about why God create suffering is, so muslim are protected from suffering, isn't?

As to the other point suffering is needed for higher happiness, again, could you explain that too?

give from which you love is suffering, isn't? but make you happier, rather than give from which you dont love, isn't?

And while I am writing let me give you a simple thought on this:

As we move through life, many things happen to us. We class some of these things as "good" and some as "bad". In reality events are just events. We want love, perhaps money, and we don't want to be sick or poor and hungry.

It is our DESIRE to have good things to happen and our FEAR of bad things, that give events a "value". Without our desire they would simply be things that happen.

If we had no desires, therefore, we could accept all things equally, see good and bad (or neither) in all things, and in the end nothing could really make us suffer.

yeah, you can say God create suffering by create desire.

[Nosuperstition]

I wonder if you would ever say to your wife... "hey, let's make a baby. She can wash the dishes when she is old enough.I know, if it's a boy he can do the garden and wash the car."

Most likely not.... You love your kids, just because they are your kids, right? OK sometimes you get mad at them when they do something stupid or annoying, but no matter what, you always love them, and you simply would never ever do anything to hurt them.

Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them.

http://biblehub.com/proverbs/13-24.htm

[manfred]

NS, "the rod" is not necessarily understood to be a real stick these days, for goodness sake. Of course a child needs discipline, but there are many ways to raise a disciplined child without hitting it. In fact, in most Western countries that is against the law.

[sum]

Hello Garudaman

Welcome back.

All the various gods are indifferent to people suffering as they never intervene. This is where man`s creation of religion gives a "consolation" to the person suffering.

One also has to ask If Allah is being sadistic when he subjects non-muslim dhimmis to a life of desperate oppression and suffering and expects them to be consoled by their own religion - if they have one. One must question whether Allah is a sadist or whether he actually exists.

Suffering would exist just the same if there was no god. Suffering is not created by any god but simply a product of mankind`s own making and natural disasters.

sum

[idesigner1]

Almost all religions preach acceptance of suffering in this world.

More you suffer in this world more rewards are waiting in next. Lots of parables, stories, preaching are testimony to this goofy belief!

Most of the religions especially prophetic religions preaches followers that God loves testing the faith of believers. There are numerous stories about sufferings Well known is Job's. Christ whole life was epitome of suffering so that finally his lord will raise him from dead and he will be final arbitrator..

It's the most absurd logic when God wants to test believer about the faith. He is god, he knows everything still he wants to torture the believer to prove his pointSome sadistic son of bitch!

Islam preaches suicide bombers that if they kill and get killed 72 houris wait for them in next! Pain in this life and enjoyment in next!!

[Garudaman]

Suffering is not created by any god but simply a product of mankind`s own making and natural disasters.

that's only true if God not exist, but based on there are too many coincidence which required in order to form/support life viewtopic.php?f=21&t=13780&start=20#p189076 , God is exist.

[Garudaman]

It's the most absurd logic when God wants to test believer about the faith. He is god, he knows everything still he wants to torture the believer to prove his pointSome sadistic son of bitch!

as TS article described, God do it not because God want to know, but because human want to give/prove themselves (to God).

[Fernando]

Suffering is not created by any god but simply a product of mankind`s own making and natural disasters.

that's only true if God not exist, but based on there are too many coincidence which required in order to form/support life viewtopic.php?f=21&t=13780&start=20#p189076 , God is exist.

Well, I was going to ask if many coincidences are needed to support life, however many more must be needed before God can exist?
But then I stopped and thought: if it's Allah we're talking about, it just needs one coincidence. The precise area of brain affected when Mo had his fit in the cave and imagined it all.

[idesigner1]

It's the most absurd logic when God wants to test believer about the faith. He is god, he knows everything still he wants to torture the believer to prove his pointSome sadistic son of bitch!

as TS article described, God do it not because God want to know, but because human want to give/prove themselves (to God).

Then why misleading title why God CREATES suffering? It should say Humans invite suffering to prove his belief!!

It also says but but but humans shouldn't seek suffering.

If you see context of prophetic religions it's God who knows, who dictates each and every action of humans. Humans re told they came from god will go back to god . He doesn't want to prove anything it's God who wants to prove that he is the only Sob and he doubts the belief of humans, Devils, Jins as well as prophets.

[Garudaman]

Then why misleading title why God CREATES suffering? It should say Humans invite suffering to prove his belief!!

human want suffering, so God created it for human, but, before that, human will is God creation, so in many ways, suffering is indeed God's creation.

It also says but but but humans shouldn't seek suffering.

yeah, because suffering can reduce the succesful rate of prove to God, so seek suffering = less prove to God.

[idesigner1]

Then why misleading title why God CREATES suffering? It should say Humans invite suffering to prove his belief!!

Garudaman: :human want suffering, so God created it for human, but, before that, human will is God creation, so in many ways, suffering is indeed God's creation.

Idesigner1
If we take to logical conclusion there is no free will. Ultimately it's god who cretes suffering. Looks like here God is a waiter who takes orders though he knows what you are going to order. He changes the order sometime!!
If he is Al Rahim, Al Rahman, Al Hakim he will guide all humans to righteous path and avoid unnecessary suffering, whether the idea of suffering originated in humans or it was God inspired. Humans prays to god so that he won't suffer unnecessarily but God uses twisted logic to make humans suffer for no reason. He is not telling us that there are certain natural calamities which can't be avoided as it's the cycle of his creation. He is not telling us that some time its human kinds own bad action which creates suffering.