Speak for yourself! We're not all Muslims here, remember.Garudaman wrote:human want suffering
Garudaman wrote:you mean earthquake? God, since He is creator of human will.
What about ignoble need with noble purpose? Does the end justify the means? Was it right in mediaeval times to burn people to death to supposedly save their souls, for instance? Was it right in modern times for IS to burn a pilot to death to support their Caliphate?Garudaman wrote:there's no shame in noble deed/purpose.
sum wrote:Hello Garudaman
Your quote -
there's no shame in noble deed/purpose.
What is noble about causing deep suffering? What is the purpose of causing deep suffering?
manfred wrote:There is no simple answer to this question, because there are many causes of suffering.
Some is caused by our own actions, some is simply part of life.
God did not promise an easy life. In Christianity, if God himself did shy away from suffering it means we should also accept that our life will take all kinds of twists and turns too.
It is neither the pleasures nor the pain nor the triumphs nor the failures in our lives that define it. It is how we manage to grow through them all.
The belief Christians hold, and it is a belief, so don't ask for proof, is that ALL of our life, the good, the bad, the exciting and the dull have all something somewhere to help us grow, and it is part of the challenges of life to find it. Suffering will in the end cease, and injustice made right, but we are not spared what God did not shy away from.
If we allow suffering to result is loss of hope, in despair, and in blame, then we are missing the point.
A good introduction to this vast topic is perhaps the allegorical tale of Job in the bible. It focuses on the importance on the right response to suffering.
If suffering from natural disaster like flood, tornado, earth quake is part of life and has nothing to do with God, god did not cause earth quake or flood, then one can understand that explaination. .
But if someone saying god was behind it and it was part of god's plan to see a wave of water coming and taking a mother's 3 little children from her lap or a children seeing their mother taken away by water wave while they are crying helplessly , and saying that it was good for them ... makes no sense. That god is just as brutal and cruel as any human being or a beast.
gupsfu wrote:When someone uses the "taken out of context" argument without explaining what it's really supposed to mean, you know he's lying.
That god is just as brutal and cruel as any human being or a beast.
sum wrote:What is noble about causing suffering? What is the purpose of causing suffering?
QS. 3:92. Never will you attain the good [reward] until you spend [in the way of God] from that which you love. And whatever you spend - indeed, God is Knowing of it.
that the better/special gift, is the gift from that which human love/the gift that comes from struggle, then is make sense if God create suffering for human so human can give worship to God with struggle.
iffo wrote:What kind a silly reply is that. What is noble about causing pain and suffering to an innocent woman seeing her babies buried under the mud.... do you even imagine the pain she goes through
iffo wrote:You realize how crazy your statement was. Is this Islam that has deprived you of any empathy?
manfred wrote:That god is just as brutal and cruel as any human being or a beast.
Yes you are very good at missing the point iffo, as always.
As a parent, do you also tie up your children so that they cannot move and do any harm to themselves, wrap them in bubble wrap perhaps?
Is it really that hard to understand? The control-freak God is your obsession and not the belief held in Christianity. God created an ever changing universe following a number of laws, but otherwise evolving on its own. Similar humans have a number of limitations, but also freedom of choice.
God neither directs every action of ever person or animal, nor forces events to occur. He made a world of possibilities. You can blame him for allowing the possibility of a flood to occur, if you must.
Chicklet's point is a more rational one. If God save someone from a natural distaster and not another there is a question to answer.
To be honest I cannot tell if God ever really saved anyone from a disaster. I can understand why people who have had a very lucky escape may say that though. They may be right they may be wrong, how can we tell? It is no more than expression of a belief.
The Christian belief is not that God protects everyone from accident and disaster, but that God will in the end righten things and not abandon those who suffered.
Garudaman wrote:iffo wrote:What kind a silly reply is that. What is noble about causing pain and suffering to an innocent woman seeing her babies buried under the mud.... do you even imagine the pain she goes through
that's the point, give/do good when happy is easy, now imagine how difficult to give/do good when suffers, thus imagine how glorious it.iffo wrote:You realize how crazy your statement was. Is this Islam that has deprived you of any empathy?
I know it sounds crazy, but you can't deny the truth of that logic.
But let me come back to Christian belief, isn't it Christian belief that god has everything planned and everything that happens is part of that plan?
manfred wrote:But let me come back to Christian belief, isn't it Christian belief that god has everything planned and everything that happens is part of that plan?
Christian belief is that there is an overall plan or reason in the creation such as it is, i.e. our lives are not pointless. It is not that God has a little sit down and decides each day, right, who shall we drown today? Who to electrocute? Who can we make miserable and laugh at them?
Think of a gardener: He sows and plans in order to produce a certain effect, a certain result, and he looks after his work. He does not control how each leaf of each plant will look or when it appears, what will be eaten by a slug or a rabbit, or exactly how many tomatoes each plant will yield. Plan does not mean absolute control.
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