manfred wrote:Something for iffo to think about... I hope
I have no intention of getting into "proving" God's existence, and for the purposes of what follows please add "If God exist, then..." to what follows, whenever you feel the need to.
Any religious teacher or philosopher, speaking of God (or even gods) will agree on some basic ideas: God is the SOURCE of all that is good, would be one.
They will also say that God strictly has no attributes at all. God cannot be defined by something that is not in itself divine. But nothing except God is divine. So God does not "have" goodness, like I have a pair of socks, ALL of God IS "goodness" and nothing in addition.
In its simplest form, the "working definition" of this idea of of "God" is: God IS (not "has") goodness, perfect goodness.
This means a god who in some way is "evil" is lacking something of HIS OWN nature, something that in itself defines what he is, not some kind of "attribute". An evil god is by definition an imperfect, incomplete, faulty deity, i.e. he cannot be "god", but has to be something else, because that what defines "God" is not present. You cannot be "god" and lack the divine at the same time. You can have a human being with one leg, without hair, in endless variety, but you cannot have a "human" who in every way really is a goldfish. There is something that makes us "human", and while we sometimes have trouble pointing out what it is, we certainly know when something is NOT a human. This means we do actually know the "humanity" that defines us all. The thing that makes god "God" is his essence, which is "goodness" in perfect form. Anything that is not entirely "goodness" cannot be "God".
The concept of an evil God is an intrinsic contradiction. There is no such thing as an imperfect perfection.
This simple notion was not lost on ancient man. That is why some ancient early gnostic sects suggested the God of the HB was in reality "evil", some kind of demon, pointing at the passages you like so much, and proposing that were must be two "Gods", a good one and a bad one.
This was utterly rejected by the Church. (Judaism never had to face that challenge) The reason given was the argument I gave above.
That left those passages, of course. The classical and medieval reply to that question was not the modern text critical analysis, of the kind I mentioned, but something quite simple: God is goodness, through and through, and nothing else, this much follows from even secular philosophy such as Aristotle. Human UNDERSTANDING of God and "God''s will" has not always been perfect, and in fact has grown and developed throughout the ages. Past concepts grow and others become obsolete.
It is natural that people saw God somewhat differently in ancient days, when "revelation" was young and incomplete. We are are still refining our ideas, but we stand on the shoulders of those before us.
The theology of the priestly source, which recounts the story of the Midianites, the same writer who speaks of many rules for people and makes much of ritual "purity" is not hugely relevant today, but it does show us something of beliefs of the past. It is telling that the two older sources, the Yahwist and the Elohist, are silent about the Midianites. This strongly suggests that this whole story is a later tradition.
Human UNDERSTANDING of God and "God''s will" has not always been perfect, and in fact has grown and developed throughout the ages. Past concepts grow and others become obsolete.
It is telling that the two older sources, the Yahwist and the Elohist, are silent about the Midianites. This strongly suggests that this whole story is a later tradition.
In my view its because god never communicated with us and told us about himself, we are just guessing.
We don't know beside Midianites what else never happened.
Isn't it a problem of definition?
Can there be an evil God?
I think yes. Demonstrably
The three gunas are born from Prakriti(nature).The self does not reside in them,but they reside in Him.
Obviously we can find many examples of CONCEPTS of an "evil God". I tried to say these make no sense. "Allah", as presented by the QUr'an, simply cannot be "God", unless you redefine "God". That is also why both Christians and Jews find it irritating if Muslims come up with "the same God" nonsense. "Allah" does not fit the concept of the Jewish or Christian God.
manfred wrote:Allah is merely Mohammed's glove puppet, and has nothing at all to do with what Jews or Christians think of as God. Philosophy is forbidden in Islam as it would show that the Islamic concept of God is a nonsense. A deity who creates being to torture them is not the Christian nor the Jewish God.
That is actually not true. Bible talks about torture in hell for sins and jesus spoke about that as well. Judo christain god is just as bad as muslim god when it comes to hell.
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.
pr126 wrote:Can there be an evil God?
I think yes. Demonstrably.
pr126 wrote:Although I must say that in my opinion god(s) exist in the human mind only.
There is no evidence at all - and none required - that a creator of the universe exist naturally or supernaturally.
pr126 wrote:There were many gods that were "demanding" human sacrifices. Baal, the Aztecs, etc.
pr126 wrote:IMO Humans created their gods in their own images, the most recent "evil god" is Allah, that was created by Muhammad after his own mental makeup.
The religion [Islam] was created for war, conquest, plunder, greed, sex and power.
Sanctifying (for eternity) the founder's own desires.
manfred wrote:That is actually not true. Bible talks about torture in hell for sins and jesus spoke about that as well. Judo christain god is just as bad as muslim god when it comes to hell.
And I have explained hell to you umpteen times, but it makes not difference.
We went over the PARABLE of Lazarus a dozen times, to no effect.
Heaven and hell are relations to or experiences of God's just and loving presence. Hell and heaven are dimensions of God's intensifying presence, as this presence is experienced either as torment or as paradise depending on the spiritual state of a person dwelling with God. For one who hates God and by extension hates himself as God's image-bearer, to be encompassed by the divine presence could only result in unspeakable anguish.
Look at the passage in the gospel again: Luke 16:19-31
It is an allegory of life after death. Did you notice that in that story heaven and hell in that story are firmly separated but also so close to each other that people can talk to each other and see each other. Now please read again what It says in the paragraph above.
And here is what various Christian groups teach.
And also look at this passage:
What you read there is what the "last judgement" is based on:For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.
This is stated twice, to make sure even you wont miss it.
It is not "obey Mohammed" or "kill the unbeliever" or anything like that. It is not even about your beliefs. It is SOLELY how you treat your fellow man.
All the things mentioned are about care and compassion, for those around you. They are not about which foot you use to enter the toilet.
They are all things you can easily do, irrespectively of any specific beliefs. It means you are the one who decides your fate.
In Islam your fate is decided before you are born.
It would be be helpful if you would not try to seize every opportunity to try to flog the dead horse of Christianity is the same as Islam. It simply isn't.
Matthew 13:41-42, 49-50 “The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Mark 9:43, 48-49 “And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire…where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’ For everyone will be salted with fire.”
manfred wrote:Oh for goodness sake iffo, stop playing the bible scrabble game, it really is getting very tedious. You disembowelled Matthew 13 and dissected two pieces of text, and presented them as if they belong together and were all that is there. The chapter is a collection of teaching stories of Jesus, with commentaries by Matthew. The parts you quoted are parts of Matthew's commentary to two different stories.
Now look closely at what is says:
The "fiery furnace" is also where "In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." If you throw your neighbour into a volcano, he will not be crying or gnashing his teeth. He will be reduced to a handful of ash. Obviously also Matthew would have known about the effect of fire on the human body. So why do you think he is using this curious phrase?
It can only mean that this "fiery furnace" is an image, not a real flame.
Yes hell is real in Christianity, but it is a mindset we create for ourself.
Many people like their mother in law. Suppose they come and visit. Maybe they sometimes say things you don't like, but overall you can cope with all of that.
Now image she came to move in permanently. Then things become different: Unless you are genuinely fond of her, her permanent presence can and would be a source of ever increasing irritation. But this is something inside you, not something your mother in law would plan to do.
Now imagine this infinitely indifferent and distant God of yours all of a sudden were to become an inescapable reality, a presence wherever you look. For you this would be hell, as you hate God above all other things. For others that same experience would be heaven because they love God above all other things.
Question: "Is hell real? Is hell eternal?"
Answer: It is interesting that a much higher percentage of people believe in the existence of heaven than believe in the existence of hell. According to the Bible, though, hell is just as real as heaven. The Bible clearly and explicitly teaches that hell is a real place to which the wicked/unbelieving are sent after death. We have all sinned against God (Romans 3:23). The just punishment for that sin is death (Romans 6:23). Since all of our sin is ultimately against God (Psalm 51:4), and since God is an infinite and eternal Being, the punishment for sin, death, must also be infinite and eternal. Hell is this infinite and eternal death which we have earned because of our sin.
The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41), “unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12), “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49), a place of “torment” and “fire” (Luke 16:23-24), “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11), and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10).
The punishment of the wicked in hell is as never ending as the bliss of the righteous in heaven. Jesus Himself indicates that punishment in hell is just as everlasting as life in heaven (Matthew 25:46). The wicked are forever subject to the fury and the wrath of God. Those in hell will acknowledge the perfect justice of God (Psalm 76:10). Those who are in hell will know that their punishment is just and that they alone are to blame (Deuteronomy 32:3-5). Yes, hell is real. Yes, hell is a place of torment and punishment that lasts forever and ever, with no end. Praise God that, through Jesus, we can escape this eternal fate (John 3:16, 18, 36).
nothing to do with what Jesus said.
Or there will be no body of flesh but your soul will feel the pain just like you feel when the body is burned for ever. At any rate in both cases it is cruel and unjustified.
manfred wrote:Your rather silly bible hopscotch post is from here
It is some American fundamentalist outfit, I can neither answer for, nor share responsibility for, nor accept.
It's founder is a certain S.Michael Houdmann, a man who claims to have had visions and describes himself as the "last prophet".... sounds familiar?
I gave a a balanced overview with links on the Christian teachings on hell many times over now, and it is baffling that you rather accept the nonsense by this man than the teachings of any serious Christian group. This is the reason why I getting convinced you are not interested in really finding things out, only to spread some propaganda.
Any normal Christian would find a response like that at best comical, more usually nauseating. What do I need to do to get you to understand that the bible is not to Christians what the Qur'an is to Muslims?
Question: "Is hell real? Is hell eternal?"
The answer to that is very simply: you make your own hell. You make it as permanent as you want it to be.
I recommended a most excellent little book for your many times, I doubt you bothered to read it.
Here it is again, it is only 50 pages long, you can read it in an hour. To me it is one of the best explanations of this issue by a very intelligent man, and it is written in a very readable way.
you find it here
If you take all time you spent on collecting un-intelligent silly material to fight your jihad against Christianity, you find it was a lot more than the time you try to get to the facts. I have tried hard to explain things to you, but I doubt it was time well spent.
So show some honesty by trying to sincerely understand.nothing to do with what Jesus said.
Huh? I gave you two passages from the gospels telling what Jesus said, and you say it wasn't?spinOr there will be no body of flesh but your soul will feel the pain just like you feel when the body is burned for ever. At any rate in both cases it is cruel and unjustified.
The pain of hell is LIKE a "flame". A burning feeling of having failed to find one's destiny. You have that flame already in yourself: it is your anger against God. You are fuelling it, and you have lit it, and only you can put it out.
"God" is not responsible for that burning feeling. You are.
The pain of hell is LIKE a "flame".
I have nothing against god, I am against the imaginary god Christians believe in. Just like you have nothing against god, but you are against Allah, the imaginary god muslims believe in.You have that flame already in yourself: it is your anger against God. You are fuelling it, and you have lit it, and only you can put it out.
I have repeatedly given you the general teachings on the subject, with sources. Not spin. You are doing the spinning.
That's what not Jesus said.
All I can say that the link I posted is giving the honest answer as per bible.
I am against the imaginary god Christians believe in.
Source is irrelevant
manfred wrote:That's what not Jesus said.
Yes it is. He LIKENED "hell" to a burning place. He used IMIGERY in the story he told about hell.
Luke16:19-31All I can say that the link I posted is giving the honest answer as per bible.
iffo now you are trolling as you do know better than that. Googling"hell in the bible" and putting only the quotes together that confirm your view is not an honest answer. The bible has many writers so has many views. Each time a term is used you also need to know who by, in what context, and what was the genre of the text. This is something all fundamentalists by-pass completely. The key passages for Christians are the two I gave, because those are the teachings of Jesus himself, and they, in conjunction with Paul's letters, are at the root of Christian teaching of that issue.
You should by now also know that to Christians the bible is not like the Qur'an, and you cannot quote-fish to "settle" a question. The bible is a source of faith, a collection of writings to do with religious beliefs, not a cookbook for religion. Our own beliefs are based on it, but not defined by it. Faith is living, growing and changing. The biblical texts are our inheritance, not our shackles.I am against the imaginary god Christians believe in.
So prove that your version is the only real one.Source is irrelevant
Well that says just about all you have to offer on the subject. You are not interested in what Christians actually believe or teach you only want abuse their religion without even trying to learn the first thing about it. Sources are irrelevant, you say. I just wonder why only YOUR sources matter and nobody else's.
This is in effect your admission you are not interested any form of real discussion, so anything else you post in this vein will be put into the soap box or bin, and you can scream foul as much as you like.
Yes it is. He LIKENED "hell" to a burning place. He used IMIGERY in the story he told about hell.
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