Noah's Flood in the Bible

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SAM
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Re: Noah's Flood in the Bible

Post by SAM »

manfred wrote:
Islam has its own story of Noah's Ark without referral from other sources such as Christianity mimicking the story of Sumerian,
:lol: Just where you think old Mo got the story from?
In the Quran say "take on board pairs of every species, male and female,"

Not only pigs that exist in Noah's ark, cats also existed at that time. I know the story of what happened in Noah's Ark between the animals and the followers of Noah.
a) DO ALL animals have a male and female form?
b) So suddenly there were pigs? Earlier you said there weren't?
c) Something happened between the animals and the followers of Noah? :lotpot: Trust you to come up with that.
It is allowed to eat pork, except in certain circumstances such as when it is like starving to death, if a person really has no other choice than to eat pork, then it is allowed to eat only enough to keep us alive , but prohibited eating like Halal food.
I assume this is a typo, and you meant "It ISN'T allowed....." So you are now quite happy to agree that a wild boar is a pig, as you suggest that wild boar sausages are pork. OK then....
It is allowed to eat pork, in other words "permissible" I repeat once again that the wild boar and domestic pigs are not the same.

You still can not prove to me that a wild boars can give birth to domestic pigs or their offspring. :lol:
In the Quran does not say a Great Flood came to cover the whole Earth, unlike in the Bible (Genesis) describes a worldwide flood covered even the highest mountains on earth.

Does it say it covered only part?

It seems other Muslims do not agree with you, Sam.... for example:
Quran 23:27

So We inspired him (with this message): "Construct the Ark within Our sight and under Our guidance: then when comes Our Command, and the fountains of the earth gush forth, take thou on board pairs of every species, male and female, and thy family- except those of them against whom the Word has already gone forth: And address Me not in favour of the wrong-doers; for they shall be drowned (in the Flood).

Quran 11:44

Then the word went forth: "O earth! swallow up thy water, and O sky! Withhold (thy rain)!" and the water abated, and the matter was ended. The Ark rested on Mount Judi, and the word went forth: "Away with those who do wrong!"
Noah builds the ark and collected all kinds of specie in pair, then the ark lands on a mount. Wouldnt this mean the floods were global.

Apart from those who boarded Prophet Nuh's (as) Ark, the entire tribe was drowned. The dead included the Prophet's son who thought he could escape by seeking shelter on a mountain.

So why was it not global flood. If you consider that Earth was considered flat at that time, this makes perfect sense. My other argument is one needs only about 100 ft of flood water (esp in those times) to destory a particular tribe. We are talking about Mountains here.

Many scholar of tafsir including Ibn Katheer based on few evidences in Quran suggests that the flood was global

For example in (Al-Sua'araa 119-120)
And We saved him and those with him in the laden ship, Then We drowned the rest (disbelievers) thereafter.
And in Surrat Al-Saffaat says clearly that all humankind today are from prophet Noah
And, his progeny, them We made the survivors (i.e. Shem, Ham and Japheth)
After few ayas in the same context Allah says:
Then We drowned the others (disbelievers and polytheists).
Also this agrees with prophet Noah' duaa
And Nûh (Noah) said: "My Lord! Leave not one of the disbelievers on the earth!

http://islam.stackexchange.com/question ... l-or-local" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not all the writer suggests are very good arguments, but there is one quite strong one: The Qur'an does claim all people living after Noah were his descendants, and all others were drowned. This does very strongly suggests the notion of a global flood, does it not, SAM?

As a general point, it is rarely a good way to argue from the ABSENCE of something.
And Nûh (Noah) said: "My Lord! Leave not one of the disbelievers on the earth!

Earth in Arabic also means territory, soil, ground, land. Great Flood just happened to Noah's people rather than the whole of humanity in the world.

Compare to Bible a load of bullsh*t and rubbish that the flood covered the whole/entire world and contain all the animals in the world in the Noah's Ark.
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Re: Noah's Flood in the Bible

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iffo wrote:We know what Jesus said. Those were Jesus's words and Jesus had no reason to say "back in the days" if Noah was not a real person.
Actually no. We know what Matthew and Luke have said, some 30 years after Jesus. We can be quite certain that when Jesus taught about judgement day he mentioned Noah, but the EXACT words? 30 years later?

And of course you dismiss the teachings about content and form because they would not fit your ideas. Nobody else, not even of people who spent their entire life studying the text, have any idea at all, only iffo has.

For the last time, "in the days of Noah" is a pointer to the story of Noah, and does not by necessity say Noah was a real person. It may be addressed at people who believed that he was, but Jesus does not tell us his own views on that. Otherwise you could clearly show me passages where Jesus expounded the historicity of Noah. The simple fact is, Jesus did NOT teach that, he said nothing as such about it.

Most Jews and pretty much all Christians will tell you that Noah is a legend, and story with a point. It is you who will not accept that simple point.

And no, the message of the gospel does not hang on two little words which have a completely different purpose to the one you suggest.
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Re: Noah's Flood in the Bible

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SAM wrote:And Nûh (Noah) said: "My Lord! Leave not one of the disbelievers on the earth!

Earth in Arabic also means territory, soil, ground, land. Great Flood just happened to Noah's people rather than the whole of humanity in the world.

Compare to Bible a load of bullsh*t and rubbish that the flood covered the whole/entire world and contain all the animals in the world in the Noah's Ark.
Hmmm, so ALL the other people, apart from "Noah's people" , all the people living elsewhere and did not drown, were "believers"?

Have you noticed there is a subtle but important difference in the biblical account of Noah and the Qur'an? For in the Qur'an says UNBELIEF is the reason for being drowned by the flood, whereas the bible means the ACTIONS of the people, their corruption and brutish behaviour.

Now, you have sidestepped a point made by your Muslim commentator:

He is referring to this passage from surah 37:
(In the days of old), Noah cried to Us, and We are the best to hear prayer.
And We delivered him and his people from the Great Calamity,
And made his progeny to endure (on this earth);
And We left (this blessing) for him among generations to come in later times:
"Peace and salutation to Noah among the nations!"
Thus indeed do we reward those who do right.
For he was one of our believing Servants.
Then the rest we overwhelmed in the Flood.
This means clearly that of any human living today, the Qur'an says they are all descendants of Noah. This does very strongly suggest the "global flood" , does it not?

Also, it appears, if you look at tafsir that almost all of the older tafsir writers also hold that view.

Also, it would be a reasonable question to ask, if the flood was meant only a local one, why collect animals pairs into the ark? There would be plenty left in other places? Does that not suggest that the writer is talking about a global catastrophe?
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Re: Noah's Flood in the Bible

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manfred wrote:
SAM wrote:And Nûh (Noah) said: "My Lord! Leave not one of the disbelievers on the earth!

Earth in Arabic also means territory, soil, ground, land. Great Flood just happened to Noah's people rather than the whole of humanity in the world.

Compare to Bible a load of bullsh*t and rubbish that the flood covered the whole/entire world and contain all the animals in the world in the Noah's Ark.
Hmmm, so ALL the other people, apart from "Noah's people" , all the people living elsewhere and did not drown, were "believers"?

Have you noticed there is a subtle but important difference in the biblical account of Noah and the Qur'an? For in the Qur'an says UNBELIEF is the reason for being drowned by the flood, whereas the bible means the ACTIONS of the people, their corruption and brutish behaviour.

Now, you have sidestepped a point made by your Muslim commentator:

He is referring to this passage from surah 37:
(In the days of old), Noah cried to Us, and We are the best to hear prayer.
And We delivered him and his people from the Great Calamity,
And made his progeny to endure (on this earth);
And We left (this blessing) for him among generations to come in later times:
"Peace and salutation to Noah among the nations!"
Thus indeed do we reward those who do right.
For he was one of our believing Servants.
Then the rest we overwhelmed in the Flood.
This means clearly that of any human living today, the Qur'an says they are all descendants of Noah. This does very strongly suggest the "global flood" , does it not?

Also, it appears, if you look at tafsir that almost all of the older tafsir writers also hold that view.

Also, it would be a reasonable question to ask, if the flood was meant only a local one, why collect animals pairs into the ark? There would be plenty left in other places? Does that not suggest that the writer is talking about a global catastrophe?
Don't be so idiot.. :lol: you expect that Noah traveled and swim all the oceans around the world eg Australia, North and South America, Asia, Africa to tell people to go back to the worship of the One True God. And all the animals (i.e Kangaroo, Rhino etc) in the world to walk or swim to the Noah's Ark... :lotpot:

Tafsir Ibn 'Abbas,

(And made his seed the survivors) until the Day of Judgement. Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Yapheth. Shem is the father of the Arabs and those people surrounding them; Ham is the father the Abyssinians, Berbers and inhabitants of Sind; and Yapheth is the father of the rest of people,

"(Sam was the father of the Arabs, Ham was the father of the Ethiopians and Yafith was the father of the Romans.)'' This was also recorded by At-Tirmidhi. What is meant here by Romans is the original Romans, i.e., the Greeks who claimed descent from Ruma (Roma) the son of Liti, the son of Yunan, the son of Yafith, the son of Nuh, peace be upon him."

"and made his descendants the survivors, thus all human beings are descended from him, peace be upon him. He had three sons: Shem (Sām), the ancestor of the Arabs, the Persians and the Byzantines; Ham (Hām), the ancestor of the Negroes; and Japheth (Yāfith), the ancestor of the Turks, the Khazar and [the peoples of] Gog and Magog and [the inhabitants of] such regions." (Tafsir Al-Jalalayn)

As you can see, none of the tafsirs mentions other civilizations like those inhabiting North and South America, China, Japan etc. They only refer to the people in some parts of Asia, Africa and Europe. Therefore, it cannot be concluded based on the tafsirs whether the flood was regional or global.

What about Aboriginal people, Indigenous people i.e Australians, Maya, Inca, and Aztecs, Orang Asli etc.. why are they still alive. Is it because they are also one of those Noah descendant or what?.. :lol:
Last edited by SAM on Wed May 11, 2016 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Noah's Flood in the Bible

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It is allowed to eat pork, in other words "permissible" I repeat once again that the wild boar and domestic pigs are not the same.

You still can not prove to me that a wild boars can give birth to domestic pigs or their offspring.
SAM maybe your English is not getting enough practice....

if you say

"it is allowed" followed by "except..." you are saying eating pork is GENERALLY allowed but NOT in an emergency. Obviously that is not what you mean so I suggested maybe you typed it wrong. Clearly you mean to say pork in Islam is NOT allowed generally, but there are some exceptions, as such as you say.

As to wild boars, for goodness sake, I despair at times what I need to explain here, they are the ancestors of domestic pigs. Wild boar and domestic pig can interbreed and frequently are made to, in order to make new varieties.

Sure, obviously they are different, but they are both pigs, obviously. You have implicitly agreed this point, as you suggest that boar sausages are in fact pork.

A black woman from Africa cannot spontaneously produce a white or Asian baby, but she can have a white or Asian husband if she so chooses. Does that mean she is not a human being?

Humans come is about half a dozen varieties, pigs have many more.
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Re: Noah's Flood in the Bible

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Don't be so idiot.. :lol: you expect that Noah traveled and swim all the oceans around the world eg Australia, North and South America, Asia, Africa to tell people to go back to the worship of the One True God. And all the animals in the world to walk or swim to the Noah's Ark... :lotpot:
I tell you what the Qur'an says, and I am the idiot? These are not my words but those from the Qur'an. I also mentioned how this is commonly understood and what we find in tafsir and hadith.

But perhaps this is rather a crucial point: What do you do when something in the Qur'an does not make sense? So Noah did not travel all the world to collect animals or preach, he couldn't. In fact there are lots of things in the story that don't really work. Even making a ship all by himself with no proper tools makes no sense.

The thing we are told is that ALL of present humanity are descendants of Noah and the people who joined him on the ship. The Qur'an says there were NO other survivors. I am just telling you what it says. It is up to you to work out what that means. Now go, SAM, think on it.
As you can see, none of the tafsirs mentions other civilizations like those inhabiting North and South America, China, Japan etc.
You expect the writers of tafsir to mention civilisations which they knew nothing about?
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Re: Noah's Flood in the Bible

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manfred wrote:
Don't be so idiot.. :lol: you expect that Noah traveled and swim all the oceans around the world eg Australia, North and South America, Asia, Africa to tell people to go back to the worship of the One True God. And all the animals in the world to walk or swim to the Noah's Ark... :lotpot:
I tell you what the Qur'an says, and I am the idiot? These are not my words but those from the Qur'an. I also mentioned how this is commonly understood and what we find in tafsir and hadith.

But perhaps this is rather a crucial point: What do you do when something in the Qur'an does not make sense? So Noah did not travel all the world to collect animals or preach, he couldn't. In fact there are lots of things in the story that don't really work. Even making a ship all by himself with no proper tools makes no sense.

The thing we are told is that ALL of present humanity are descendants of Noah and the people who joined him on the ship. The Qur'an says there were NO other survivors. I am just telling you what it says. It is up to you to work out what that means. Now go, SAM, think on it.
Christian and Jews believe that the flood was global and wiped out everyone except those who went with Noah on the ark... :yuk:

Now go, Manny, think on it your Bible full of corrupted and man made stories.. In Bible says that only 8 people in the whole world survived. So this 8 people including Noah's family generates 7 billion people in the world. :lotpot:
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Re: Noah's Flood in the Bible

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I have provided a detailed account of what Christians and Jews say about the story of Noah, with links and quotes. You should read it instead of writing the usual stuff.

I see, talking about this passage from the Qur'an is too uncomfortable for you, so you just ignore what I told you and change the subject...

In a way you have given me a very telling answer to my question: "What do you do if something in the Qur'an does not make sense?" Well, what you do is run away and talk about something else.
So this 8 people including Noah's family generates 7 billion people in the world.
Not my suggestion SAM, the Qur'an.
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Re: Noah's Flood in the Bible

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manfred wrote:I have provided a detailed account of what Christians and Jews say about the story of Noah, with links and quotes. You should read it instead of writing the usual stuff.

I see, talking about this passage from the Qur'an is too uncomfortable for you, so you just ignore what I told you and change the subject...

In a way you have given me a very telling answer to my question: "What do you do if something in the Qur'an does not make sense?" Well, what you do is run away and talk about something else.
So this 8 people including Noah's family generates 7 billion people in the world.
Not my suggestion SAM, the Qur'an.
Bulsh*t...written in your Bible (1 Peter 3:20) to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,..

Only eight people to build Noah's Ark. The others all disobedience and certainly not help make the Ark..

Your Bible full of rubbish story of the Noah's Ark.. :lol:
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Re: Noah's Flood in the Bible

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SAM wrote:
I know the story of what happened in Noah's Ark between the animals and the followers of Noah.
I would love to hear that story.
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Re: Noah's Flood in the Bible

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As I said, if the Qur'an makes no sense, you run away and change the subject.

As to Peter's letter, in it Peter is referring to Noah's story in Genesis in a similar way as Matthew was doing in the issue iffo raised. He is using the story of Noah as a teaching vehicle about BAPTISM. He equally does not make any claim about the historicity of Noah, one way or the other, he is using the old story to illustrate a point about something else. He is talking about salvation, his understanding of that, the role of Christ in that, and baptism.

As I have now repeated at nauseam, please distinguish FORM and CONTENT. Content: salvation, baptism, role of Christ. Form: Noah (among others). Form is the vehicle with which to convey a message, and it generally is linked to the audience the text was intended for.


While I, alongside with most Christians and Jews, do not take the story of Noah as a historical description of events, but a legend with a teaching point with a kernel of real events. Muslims do think it is literally fact, and take the account in the Qur'an generally as a literal description of events. You will not face up to the issues this poses, but instead merely project your own problems with that story onto others.
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Re: Noah's Flood in the Bible

Post by Fernando »

I see that genealogy starts at 4004 BC. I think only a few fundies stick to Bishop Ussher's calculation these days.
While I hardly dare dip my toe into theology, could it be that since Jesus was in human form he was humanly fallible and made a mistake about Noah? I'm sure Muslims would think that, since he ranks below Mohammed in their eyes!
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Re: Noah's Flood in the Bible

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Fernando wrote:I see that genealogy starts at 4004 BC. I think only a few fundies stick to Bishop Ussher's calculation these days.
While I hardly dare dip my toe into theology, could it be that since Jesus was in human form he was humanly fallible and made a mistake about Noah? I'm sure Muslims would think that, since he ranks below Mohammed in their eyes!

What he really thought about the story of Noah is not really something we are told, so we don't know. A lot of things could be. However, if you are planning to use this story to make a point to an audience that mostly saw the story as much more factual than we do to day, it makes perfect sense to speak of if AS IF it was historical irrespective of your own view on it.

After all, he was not trying to teach anything about Noah, but about something else, merely using using the story as a vehicle.
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Re: Noah's Flood in the Bible

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Ariel wrote:
SAM wrote:
I know the story of what happened in Noah's Ark between the animals and the followers of Noah.
I would love to hear that story.
XXX-rated no doubt...
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Re: Noah's Flood in the Bible

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Ariel wrote:
SAM wrote:
I know the story of what happened in Noah's Ark between the animals and the followers of Noah.
I would love to hear that story.
Ask iffo...

You will learn something new historical ignorance and stupidity of the biblical Noah 's ark. You can easily see through its absurdity. If rain for 40 days and nights could flood the world then God save us, it rains for 24 hours and 7 days non stop the whole year. Noah's ark: 43 feet high, 440 feet long, 73 feet wide and made of wood. It could hold 8 people only and caring all worldwide animals, 17400 birds, 1200 reptiles, 9000 mammals, 5000 amphibian, 2000000 insects etc... Bible full of corrupted and nonsense.. :lol:
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Re: Noah's Flood in the Bible

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Sigh... you really are a hopeless case SAM. You have not read anything in this thread at all.

You misrepresent the Jewish and Christian reading of the story, get into veritable orgasms over ridiculing what you have no intention to understand, while at the same time running a mile when the qur'anic version come up.

Seriously, at least try to have a sensible conversation once in a while... you used to be able to do that.
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Re: Noah's Flood in the Bible

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manfred wrote:Sigh... you really are a hopeless case SAM. You have not read anything in this thread at all.

You misrepresent the Jewish and Christian reading of the story, get into veritable orgasms over ridiculing what you have no intention to understand, while at the same time running a mile when the qur'anic version come up.

Seriously, at least try to have a sensible conversation once in a while... you used to be able to do that.
I don't buy your bullsh*t arguments with iffo...
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Re: Noah's Flood in the Bible

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All the intellectual, as always. I am not selling you anything. I am just telling you how it is. So you don't like it, well tough.
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Re: Noah's Flood in the Bible

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SAM wrote:You will learn something new historical ignorance and stupidity of the biblical Noah 's ark. You can easily see through its absurdity. If rain for 40 days and nights could flood the world then God save us, it rains for 24 hours and 7 days non stop the whole year. Noah's ark: 43 feet high, 440 feet long, 73 feet wide and made of wood. It could hold 8 people only and caring all worldwide animals, 17400 birds, 1200 reptiles, 9000 mammals, 5000 amphibian, 2000000 insects etc... Bible full of corrupted and nonsense.. :lol:
I have to agree with you that the global flood and an ark full of animals is no more than a fable - and it's only believed by a few fundamentalist Christians. However, I must take you to task on all those animals being just a Christian fable. You yourself said on the previous page:
In the Quran say "take on board pairs of every species, male and female,"
which is surely the same thing without detailed numbers. (I'd previously thought the Koran made no mention of animals but I stand corrected.)
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Re: Noah's Flood in the Bible

Post by SAM »

Fernando wrote:
SAM wrote:You will learn something new historical ignorance and stupidity of the biblical Noah 's ark. You can easily see through its absurdity. If rain for 40 days and nights could flood the world then God save us, it rains for 24 hours and 7 days non stop the whole year. Noah's ark: 43 feet high, 440 feet long, 73 feet wide and made of wood. It could hold 8 people only and caring all worldwide animals, 17400 birds, 1200 reptiles, 9000 mammals, 5000 amphibian, 2000000 insects etc... Bible full of corrupted and nonsense.. :lol:
I have to agree with you that the global flood and an ark full of animals is no more than a fable - and it's only believed by a few fundamentalist Christians. However, I must take you to task on all those animals being just a Christian fable. You yourself said on the previous page:
In the Quran say "take on board pairs of every species, male and female,"
which is surely the same thing without detailed numbers. (I'd previously thought the Koran made no mention of animals but I stand corrected.)
According to Tafsir Hashim Al-Husaini Al-Bahrani, there were eight animals on the Ark mentioned in Quran 7:143-144 which include goats, sheep, cows and camels.
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
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