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Re: Noah's Flood in the Bible

PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2016 9:52 pm
by manfred
Dear Iffo please do not post an edited version of my post. Quote it and answer seperately as otherwise you appear to "correct" or "edit" my posts.

Like skynightblaze said , please provide an example where "back in the days" was used for a fictional character .


"in the days of Yore" is another expression similar to that. "Back in the Golden Age"... I already gave you half a dozen or so similar phrases.

May a song will do the trick?:

Here is "Back in the days of Christopher robin" (That is a character from "Winnie the Pooh")



And you still not getting it.
a) we cannot be sure there exact words were even used.
b) they do not PROVE that Jesus thought Noah was real, he may or may not have done, we don;t know. But they certainly do not mean he TAUGHT that, no matter what he thought. All you have is your conjecture from a phrase in Matthew and you are telling Christians on the basis of that what they should believe.
c) When you are using a story to teach something else it is entirely natural to speak of it AS IF it was real.
d) I DON'T KNOW what Jesus thought about a historical Noah, nobody knows, and you don't either. I prefer to simply say that I don't know, whereas you prefer to present your belief as inescapable fact


SO they were Mathew's words "back in the days" not words of Jesus. So basically its not only this thing about Noah, but basically nothing we read regarding what Jesus said in gospel can be claimed 100% correct.


Sure. All we have is a text that is written some considerable time later. But we have similar accounts from several writers, so we can be quite sure of the general gist, but not obviously of every tiny detail. Christianity is not really a "book religion", the "Book" is part of a living tradition.


Only god knows what he said, as he was so stupid that he sent his son but had no plan to record anything he said for coming generations that they can trust. See how silly this whole thing is.


That is not quite what I said. What I mean it you cannot base a major argument on a couple of words from the text. You are not interested in what he said, otherwise you would realise he was merely using Noah to teach something else.You only want to cast ALL Christianity as fundamentalist so that you can have a laugh at it. That is the only reason why these two words must be read ONLY in the way you want, otherwise things don't work so well and you cannot poke so much fun.. What exact words he used, we don't know, but we have the ideas he put forward. And I am glad to learn that you are so much cleverer than God, iffo. One day maybe you meet him and you tell him how to run things, I am sure he will be impressed.

Well islamic scholars also spent their whole life studying Islam, so do we agree with them and believe everything they say?


We would hopefully agree that in most cases they speak for Islam and what it teaches. Whether you agree with the teachings is another issue entirely. They can provide a yardstick as to what Islam teaches but what you believe is your business.

That means very little manfred, they have no choice because this whole Noah story is so stupid.


It is only stupid if you pretend it is something it isn't. As I said to you before, a book is like a mirror. You can only get from it things that you already have.

Sam illustrated how to make it look stupid. That part is easy and requires little effort. Understanding it is quite a bit harder.

Anyway I tried my best to give you an introduction to that passage, and I really don't want to spend another day writing in this topic. I have quite a few things to do. So, iffo, thanks for chatting, "buy" whatever you fancy. Let's not drag this out until it gets boring.

Re: Noah's Flood in the Bible

PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2016 10:07 pm
by manfred
The great flood destroyed Noah's people only. Bear in your mind there is no mention is made of it being a global flood in the Quran.

I asked you before, and you ignore it, do you expect that Noah traveled and swim all the oceans around the world such as Australia, North and South America, Asia, Africa etc. Maybe Allah forgot want to lend Al-Buraq to Noah.. :lotpot:

Did Noah know speak multiple languages Chinese, Javanese, Malay, Zulu, Tamil, Pakistani, Maya, Inca, Aztecs and other languages to tell people to go back to the worship of the One True God. And bring all the insects/animals of the world, walk or swim to Noah's ark his homeland in Turkey or Mountains of Ararat


Why are you asking me? I am not the one who claims Noah did anything like that. I don't even believe there was a real Noah, of if there was, the real tale of his would be very much simpler.

I merely pointed at what the Qur'an is saying. If you think it makes no sense, fair enough, then you need you re-evaluate the Qur'an.

Bear in your mind there is no mention is made of it being a global flood in the Quran.


Sure, but it is difficult to escape the fact that a global event is described. It certainly also does not talk about a LOCAL flood in any explicit terms.

That is why the Bible and the Torah has been corrupted and unreliable as the word of God.


So when you copy an allegedly "corrupt" text it "un-corrupts" itself?

And why don;t comment on what I say instead of producing the usual stock phrases?

Re: Noah's Flood in the Bible

PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2016 10:23 pm
by SAM
manfred wrote:
The great flood destroyed Noah's people only. Bear in your mind there is no mention is made of it being a global flood in the Quran.

I asked you before, and you ignore it, do you expect that Noah traveled and swim all the oceans around the world such as Australia, North and South America, Asia, Africa etc. Maybe Allah forgot want to lend Al-Buraq to Noah.. :lotpot:

Did Noah know speak multiple languages Chinese, Javanese, Malay, Zulu, Tamil, Pakistani, Maya, Inca, Aztecs and other languages to tell people to go back to the worship of the One True God. And bring all the insects/animals of the world, walk or swim to Noah's ark his homeland in Turkey or Mountains of Ararat


Why are you asking me? I am not the one who claims Noah did anything like that. I don't even believe there was a real Noah, of if there was, the real tale of his would be very much simpler.

I merely pointed at what the Qur'an is saying. If you think it makes no sense, fair enough, then you need you re-evaluate the Qur'an.

Bear in your mind there is no mention is made of it being a global flood in the Quran.


Sure, but it is difficult to escape the fact that a global event is described. It certainly also does not talk about a LOCAL flood in any explicit terms.

That is why the Bible and the Torah has been corrupted and unreliable as the word of God.


So when you copy an allegedly "corrupt" text it "un-corrupts" itself?

And why don;t comment on what I say instead of producing the usual stock phrases?
You did not answer my question. As usual you are a runner.. :lol:

1) You need to provide evidence from the Quran or authentic hadiths, which states clearly that the flood was global.

2)Do you expect that Noah traveled and swim all the oceans around the world such as Ocean Pacific, Atlantic Ocean, Indian Ocean etc to countries such as Australia, North and South America, Asia, Africa etc.

3)Did Noah know speak multiple languages Chinese, Javanese, Malay, Zulu, Tamil, Pakistani, Maya, Inca, Aztecs and other languages to tell people to go back to the worship of the One True God. And bring all the insects/animals of the world, walk or swim to Noah's ark his homeland in Turkey or Mountains of Ararat. Allah was only referring to Noah's animals only.


It is you need you re-evaluate and reassess the corrupted Bible and Torah not Quran.

Re: Noah's Flood in the Bible

PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2016 11:06 pm
by manfred
Sam I really much prefer to answer sensible questions, but here you go, just because it is you....

1) You need to provide evidence from the Quran or authentic hadiths, which states clearly that the flood was global.

We went over that.
As the Qur'an claims that ALL except Noah and the people on the ark drowned, you cannot really argue that it is taking about a local event. ALL humanity as it is today is supposed to be descended from Noah.


2)Do you expect that Noah traveled and swim all the oceans around the world such as Ocean Pacific, Atlantic Ocean, Indian Ocean etc to countries such as Australia, North and South America, Asia, Africa etc.


I didn't make any claim that Noah did any of that, I maintain he is a figure of legend.

3)Did Noah know speak multiple languages Chinese, Javanese, Malay, Zulu, Tamil, Pakistani, Maya, Inca, Aztecs and other languages to tell people to go back to the worship of the One True God. And bring all the insects/animals of the world, walk or swim to Noah's ark his homeland in Turkey or Mountains of Ararat. Allah was only referring to Noah's animals only.


A legendary character only says the words the tellers of the story give him. It makes no sense to ask what languages he could speak or what he did. He was not a real person. That also answers your complaint that he could not assemble all the animals.

It is you need you re-evaluate and reassess the corrupted Bible and Torah not Quran.

SAM it is your ideas about the bible that really are quite silly, I am sorry to say.

The bible contain many texts from different ages and different genre. Noah and the flood is a Hebrew version of an ancient myth. That does not mean it is a pointless effort to read it. It has been used in many way to make many different teaching points and to express many different ideas. If you take it as what it really is it has quite a few things to tell you.

If you to take it as a historical text, an account of events, you missing the point completely and all you end up doing is to look at all the odd things in the story. It is a STORY, a LEGEND, it is entitled to have incredible things and even contradictions. Only a really dull person gets hung up on that. You need to have a little imagination, go with the flow of the story and when you get to the end decide what it means to you, if anything. I mean you don't go to watch spiderman and tell all the other people in the cinema what is wrong with the plot every 2 minutes?

Re: Noah's Flood in the Bible

PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 5:30 am
by iffo
Indeed its getting boring.

Why should one believe these are Mathew's but not Jesus words? "back in the days ". Just because Jesus got busted, we should say these are not his words? Jesus was a human not god or anything, he made a mistake just like we all do , I think that's what happened.

manfred
And I am glad to learn that you are so much cleverer than God, iffo. One day maybe you meet him and you tell him how to run things, I am sure he will be impressed.


Not only me manfred, any person who is honest, unbiased , who want to know only the truth and have minimum level of common sense will ask god the same question, that why the hell you sent your son and have nobody recorded what he said that one can trust and rely on. What a waste of life. Thanks to writers of gospel who wrote something right or wrong, if they wouldn't have written anything we would not have known who the hell he was.

And I know what god will say or do. He will punch me on the face and would say how dare you insulted me by associating Christianity with me , do you think I am creator of billion galaxies is so dumb to send my son for nothing with nobody correctly recording what he said for future generations.

Christianity is based on unreliable writing of gospel writers, god knows what Jesus said and what they wrote in gospel as Noah's ark story proved, and admitted by you that Mathew added his own words. There is no point in churches reading from the gospel saying Jesus said this and that, since it is not reliable.
To me this whole thing is a joke, and an insult to human intelligence.

Re: Noah's Flood in the Bible

PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 7:23 am
by manfred
Why should one believe these are Mathew's but not Jesus words? "back in the days ". Just because Jesus got busted, we should say these are not his words? Jesus was a human not god or anything, he made a mistake just like we all do , I think that's what happened.


ALL of Matthew's gospels are Matthew's words. Jesus did not write anything and Matthew wrote some 30 years later. It would be silly to assume ALL and EVERY quote is verbatim. Nobody got "busted". That is simply just your wishful thinking. How many more times? You are drawing a conclusion from something we simply don't know. You have not provided sufficient evidence. It is not an article of faith to believe in a literal flood and a real Noah in any mainstream denomination. I have not ruled your idea OUT completely I have said it is merely your reading of the text, and not the understanding of Christians generally. It simply is not enough to draw a firm conclusion on a phrase used by Matthew when introducing the teaching of Jesus on judgement day. We cannot be certain even that Jesus used that exact phrase, and if he did, it does not imply BY NECESSITY that Jesus believed in a real Noah.

That does not mean he did not, he could have done. So while your idea is a POSSIBLE interpretation, it is not the ONLY POSSIBLE one. The standard reading of it is also perfectly reasonable.

It seems nothing will make you see that. I really have explained it often enough by now. I noticed at one point you wanted an EXACT analogous use of metaphor, "in the days of" followed by a fictitious character. I found you one, and you just sidestep that. Could it be you are only interested in things that support your own ideas?

Not only me manfred, any person who is honest, unbiased , who want to know only the truth and have minimum level of common sense will ask god the same question, that why the hell you sent your son and have nobody recorded what he said that one can trust and rely on.


Here we go, the "no true Scotsman" again. So all Christians are biased and downright dishonest. So it seems that you too have caught the bug of bashing Christians, as a way of a hobby, like glitch described.

Guess what, I don't owe you a justification. I have answered you and if you don't like what I told you that is really not my concern. For my efforts to explain something I get called dishonest. Twice now.

We don't have a verbatim record of the exact words of Jesus. Nor do we have a record how he cleaned his bum or what colour sandals he wore. Nor do we have a record of his exact interpretations of many texts, how he read Noah or the creation story, for example, and many others. All we do have a record of him picking up various parts of the Hebrew bible and using them teach something.

What we do have is a record of what early Christian believed about him. That is what is written down. It is about the big picture, not any nit picking. If that is "stupid" to you, well, that is your opinion.

The early writers concentrated on important things that touch our lives, not on silly games. Do you really think "God would send his son" to tell humanity that Noah is either a legend or real? To work that out we don't need any special help.

Re: Noah's Flood in the Bible

PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 8:26 am
by SAM
manfred wrote:Sam I really much prefer to answer sensible questions, but here you go, just because it is you....

1) You need to provide evidence from the Quran or authentic hadiths, which states clearly that the flood was global.

We went over that.
As the Qur'an claims that ALL except Noah and the people on the ark drowned, you cannot really argue that it is taking about a local event. ALL humanity as it is today is supposed to be descended from Noah.
You are talking nonsense, so the Christian God only saves 8 Noah's family and thousands of animals. Are animals more precious than human beings.

Estimate tens or hundreds of millions of people around the world at the time of Noah, who have not heard and knew the name of Noah was killed and exterminated by the Christian God because eight members of Noah's family. :yuk:

After the great flood receded all this 8 people including Noah's family generates 7 billion people in the world. They only has sex, intercourse, keep f*ck*ng day and night to reproduce a human. :lol:

2)Do you expect that Noah traveled and swim all the oceans around the world such as Ocean Pacific, Atlantic Ocean, Indian Ocean etc to countries such as Australia, North and South America, Asia, Africa etc.


I didn't make any claim that Noah did any of that, I maintain he is a figure of legend.
So, Noah only myths, fables and nonsense for you which you keep trying to tell iffo. There are still many Christians believe that Noah is real and exists, not the legend.

3)Did Noah know speak multiple languages Chinese, Javanese, Malay, Zulu, Tamil, Pakistani, Maya, Inca, Aztecs and other languages to tell people to go back to the worship of the One True God. And bring all the insects/animals of the world, walk or swim to Noah's ark his homeland in Turkey or Mountains of Ararat. Allah was only referring to Noah's animals only.


A legendary character only says the words the tellers of the story give him. It makes no sense to ask what languages he could speak or what he did. He was not a real person. That also answers your complaint that he could not assemble all the animals.
Genesis 6:19–20:
‘And of every living thing of all flesh, you shall bring two of every sort into the ark to keep them alive with you. They shall be male and female. Of the birds according to their kinds, and of the animals according to their kinds, of every creeping thing of the ground, according to its kind, two of every sort shall come in to you to keep them alive.’

Genesis 7:22, Everything on the dry land in whose nostrils was the breath of life died.

Genesis 6:15, This is how you are to make it: the length of the ark 300 cubits, its breadth 50 cubits, and its height 30 cubits.

I complained that the my intellectual superior Bible says Noah's Ark can assemble all the animals of the world.

It is you need you re-evaluate and reassess the corrupted Bible and Torah not Quran.

SAM it is your ideas about the bible that really are quite silly, I am sorry to say.

The bible contain many texts from different ages and different genre. Noah and the flood is a Hebrew version of an ancient myth. That does not mean it is a pointless effort to read it. It has been used in many way to make many different teaching points and to express many different ideas. If you take it as what it really is it has quite a few things to tell you.

If you to take it as a historical text, an account of events, you missing the point completely and all you end up doing is to look at all the odd things in the story. It is a STORY, a LEGEND, it is entitled to have incredible things and even contradictions. Only a really dull person gets hung up on that. You need to have a little imagination, go with the flow of the story and when you get to the end decide what it means to you, if anything. I mean you don't go to watch spiderman and tell all the other people in the cinema what is wrong with the plot every 2 minutes?
I am talking about the true Bible story of Noah's Ark in Genesis not World of Marvel comics. :D It's all nonsense! There is no scientific evidence of a global flood. The Book of Genesis’s flood story mirrors The Epic Of Gilgamesh from hundreds of years earlier.

Re: Noah's Flood in the Bible

PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 8:48 am
by pr126
About as credible as Mohammad riding on a buraq to heaven to haggle the number if prayers with Allah for Muslims.

And Muhammad's chest was opened, his heart taken out and washed with zam zam water?
Open heart surgery. No anaesthetics needed.

Re: Noah's Flood in the Bible

PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 9:25 am
by manfred
pr126 wrote:About as credible as Mohammad riding on a buraq to heaven to haggle the number if prayers with Allah for Muslims.


As I keep telling him, it is a legend. As such it is perfectly entitled to have fantastical elements, inconsistencies and incredible stuff. In fact, it would be a lousy legend with out it.

But he keeps pretending we are talking about real events and a real Noah, so that he can poke fun at the story. So that is really just another strawman...

I really wish he would do that in a movie theatre... imagine him watching "avatar" and telling all the people around him about holes in the plot all through the movie. Do you think he would make it to the end or get kicked out before?


What is even more ridiculous, he can come up with all of this stuff about the Genesis version, but apparently the Qur'an version is 100% "fact"....

To be honest PR, I sometimes despair.

Re: Noah's Flood in the Bible

PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 9:52 am
by pr126
I think he only keeps posting to annoy you. It is a kind of childish trolling really.
Nobody else takes any notice.
But you do have endless patience.

Re: Noah's Flood in the Bible

PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 10:48 am
by Fernando
SAM wrote:I don't buy it...keep your knowledge to yourself. :D
Quite the comedian, SAM. The old comics said it better though: "I do not wish to know that!"

Re: Noah's Flood in the Bible

PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 1:08 pm
by SAM
According to Islamic source that elephant was among animals in the Noah's Ark and pig descended from elephant. In other words that the existence of pigs come from elephants.

Re: Noah's Flood in the Bible

PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 4:37 pm
by manfred
I see, SAM, so at some point a mother elephant had a baby, and it was a piglet. Was she surprised?

Imagine your wife all of sudden giving birth to a fluffy, fury cute little thing with glands under the armpits producing fragrant lentil curry, a tiny voice only able to say "allah akhbar" and bobbing its head.... it's favourite occupation is running round in a circle... the new species will be call a Sametty, in your honour... Better buy a rabbit cage, just in case....

Re: Noah's Flood in the Bible

PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 4:47 pm
by Ariel
manfred wrote:I see, SAM, so at some point a mother elephant had a baby, and it was a piglet. Was she surprised?

Imagine your wife all of sudden giving birth to a fluffy, fury cute little thing with glands under the armpits producing fragrant lentil curry, a tiny voice only able to say "allah akhbar" and bobbing its head.... it's favourite occupation is running round in a circle... the new species will be call a Sametty, in your honour... Better buy a rabbit cage, just in case....


I admire your patience Manfred. At this moment I am in a hotel in Maastricht having an early dinner. Late this evening I will be home again. Good luck with SAM.

Re: Noah's Flood in the Bible

PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 5:01 pm
by SAM
manfred wrote:I see, SAM, so at some point a mother elephant had a baby, and it was a piglet. Was she surprised?

Imagine your wife all of sudden giving birth to a fluffy, fury cute little thing with glands under the armpits producing fragrant lentil curry, a tiny voice only able to say "allah akhbar" and bobbing its head.... it's favourite occupation is running round in a circle... the new species will be call a Sametty, in your honour... Better buy a rabbit cage, just in case....

As usual you always blurt out to whatever comes across your mind... Don't lose your head and make yourself look stupid.. :lol: If you don't know about it.. ask your buddy iffo.

Re: Noah's Flood in the Bible

PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 5:37 pm
by manfred
Seriously SAM, where do you get such daft ideas from?

The pig is not a descendant of an elephant. And it is not a question of religion, it is one of science, so I am surprised that you say some "Islamic source" made such a claim. I would like to see it.
Elephants' closest living relatives are manatees, dugongs, and hyraxes . The most recent common ancestor for elephants, hyraxes, dugongs, and manatees lived approximately 60 million years ago. That's not particularly recent, but it's much more recent than the most common ancestor that includes both elephants and pigs (about 105 million years ago).


https://answers.yahoo.com/question/inde ... 223AAPtIyt

So sure, elephants an pigs are related, all mammals are related with each other, even you, the second most perfect person after old Mo....

But for your suggestion to be right some type of elephant must be a common ancestor of the pig, which is not the case.

Why on earth would such a crazy idea be part of Islam?

Re: Noah's Flood in the Bible

PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 5:41 pm
by Hombre
Ariel wrote:
Batam wrote:The Bible OT/NT is a book full of myths, fables and fairy tales.


Why Batam? Please explain. And do you like the Koran better?
Yes Batam, you may be right for a simple reason. a) in ancient times, means of record keeping & story telling were primitive. b) People then were not equipped with the knowledge which we have today. Therefore any phenomenon - particularly natural ones, to which they could not explain, they attributed it to some higher & unknown power. That power was "god", "Allah", or a "spirit" (whatever). c) Due to that lack of record keeping, and knowledge of the universe, it naturally led to vivid imaginations and myth in regards to story telling.

There is now doubt that events did happen back then as they do today. Except people then had more vivid imagination which some cunning individuals had declared themselves as "prophets" who receive their knowledge from that "higher authorities, then exploited it to their own benefit. Muhammad being a classic example.

Looking at history of past 1400 years, it is evident that Muslims imagination - thanks to Muhammad own story telling, it is by far richer and mythical then others. Since Quran contains distorted version of the biblical stories, it is father of all mythical & fable stories among the 3 holy books

Re: Noah's Flood in the Bible

PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 6:06 pm
by SAM
As I said, Islam has its own story of Noah's Ark without referral from other source. Noah's Ark found on Mount Judi where quran states exactly. It is a prove that Qur'an is a true word from none other but Allah, unlike Bible man made story by unknown authors.

Re: Noah's Flood in the Bible

PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 7:03 pm
by Fernando
Wow, SAM! Comedian, theologian and evolutionary biologist, all at the same time!
Chapter and verse, please, for this evolution of pigs from elephants.

Re: Noah's Flood in the Bible

PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 7:31 pm
by manfred
SAM wrote:As I said, Islam has its own story of Noah's Ark without referral from other source. Noah's Ark found on Mount Judi where quran states exactly. It is a prove that Qur'an is a true word from none other but Allah, unlike Bible man made story by unknown authors.


REALLY???
So have a look what the nasty kafirs are saying about that....

Searches for Noah's Ark, sometimes referred to as arkeology,have been made from at least the time of Eusebius (c.275–339 CE) to the present day. Despite many expeditions, no scientific evidence of the ark has been found. The practice is regarded as pseudoscience and pseudoarchaeology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Searches_for_Noah's_Ark

How should they die?

BTW... "Mount Judi" is a Syrian legend, pre-dating Islam so it not Islamic original. It merely something else borrowed, something Mohammed picked up in the tales during his travels. So if there is any proof to be had, it is about Mohammed's plagiarism.

The Syrians of the east Tigris had a legend of the ark resting on the Djûdi mountain in the land of Corduene (Kard, Korchayk, Carduchoi). This legend may in origin have been independent of the Genesis account of Noah's flood, rooted in the more general Near Eastern flood legends, but following Christianization of the Syrians, from about the 2nd century AD, it became associated with the Mountains of Ararat where Noah landed according to Genesis, and from Syria also this legend also spread to the Armenians. The Armenians did not traditionally associate Noah's landing site with Mount Ararat, known natively as Masis, but until the 11th century continued to associate Noah's ark with Mount Judi.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Judi


And why do you not post your sources? Are you ashamed of them?