What purpose does Jesus serve to Muslims

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frankie
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What purpose does Jesus serve to Muslims

Post by frankie »

I have opened a new thread for discussion,preferably for the Muslims to give their answers.

I would be interested to know in what way Jesus, said to be a prophet in Islam, serves their faith,which sources do Muslims refer to, apart from the Quran, that show Jesus to be a prophet of Islam?The Quran gives very little information on WHY Jesus had to be born without the intervention of a man and woman,which an event in itself strongly indicates Jesus's status was even greater than Mohammed's,as Allah himself had a direct involvement in Jesus's creation.

What exactly is the message of Jesus to Muslims and how and why did he convey this message?
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manfred
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Re: What purpose does Jesus serve to Muslims

Post by manfred »

Hi,

Jesus has always been somewhat of a sticking point for Muslims... So he is a "prophet". What was his message? Muslims say some parts are in the gospels, but the original has been lost.

The "injil" is an Arabic rendering of the Greek word "euangelion". However Muslims will generally claim that the Christian Gospels are not Jesus's "injil". He was "given" this "injil, and then it was lost/corrupted. To make it worse, Jesus did not die on the cross. Allah saved him by deception, thereby deliberately starting the false religion of Christianity. Only centuries later did Allah send old Mo to explain it all, so Allah was not bothered about having led millions of Christians astray who lived before Mohammed ...

So Jesus in Islam was a FAILED prophet who kind of was bailed out by Allah, but his message could not be saved by Allah. The deception makes no sense at all as it only adds to consigning Jesus to the dustbin of prophetic failures.

He has very little other purpose in Islam beyond being one of many biblical figures used by Mohammed to prop up his claims. Mohammed found it necessary to "marry" the mother of Jesus on his ride to heaven... another sign how desperately Mohammed tried to grab legitimacy by any means possible.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"
frankie
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Re: What purpose does Jesus serve to Muslims

Post by frankie »

manfred wrote:Hi,

Jesus has always been somewhat of a sticking point for Muslims... So he is a "prophet". What was his message? Muslims say some parts are in the gospels, but the original has been lost.

The "injil" is an Arabic rendering of the Greek word "euangelion". However Muslims will generally claim that the Christian Gospels are not Jesus's "injil". He was "given" this "injil, and then it was lost/corrupted. To make it worse, Jesus did not die on the cross. Allah saved him by deception, thereby deliberately starting the false religion of Christianity. Only centuries later did Allah send old Mo to explain it all, so Allah was not bothered about having led millions of Christians astray who lived before Mohammed ...

So Jesus in Islam was a FAILED prophet who kind of was bailed out by Allah, but his message could not be saved by Allah. The deception makes no sense at all as it only adds to consigning Jesus to the dustbin of prophetic failures.

He has very little other purpose in Islam beyond being one of many biblical figures used by Mohammed to prop up his claims. Mohammed found it necessary to "marry" the mother of Jesus on his ride to heaven... another sign how desperately Mohammed tried to grab legitimacy by any means possible.

manfred:
Thanks manfred for your input,which is as always most welcome and valuable.

As to whether any Muslim will care to add his response, remains to be seen.
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kaimana1
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Re: What purpose does Jesus serve to Muslims

Post by kaimana1 »

manfred:
Thanks manfred for your input,which is as always most welcome and valuable.

As to whether any Muslim will care to add his response, remains to be seen
:lotpot: The reason i am laughing is because i went through this with my little sidekick mono- and he came up rather desperate. Be prepared for a slew of acrobatical gymnastics i tell you. :nono:
Eagle
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Re: What purpose does Jesus serve to Muslims

Post by Eagle »

frankie wrote:The Quran gives very little information on WHY Jesus had to be born without the intervention of a man and woman
It wasnt "without the intervention of a man and woman" but only without the intervention of a man. Jesus is the only explicit case in the Quran where a human's birth did not result from sexual reproduction. The Quran doesnt even state that Adam was born in such a way.
Jesus as well as his mother were chosen to be made jointly, a single sign of the power of the Maker and Creator over all things 23:50,21:91

Besides the feeble attempts of some Christians to use some passages in Romans5 to imply that the Christian invention of an inherited sin was circumvented through Jesus' miraculous birth since that imaginary disease is apparently transmitted by males (but wait, doesnt that make women sinless?), your NT says it was primarly in fulfilement of OT prophecies yet:
- such a prophecy doesnt exist, except in the infamous Christian corrupted Greek Septuagint
- the same NT that insists on the fulfillement of an ancient prophecy paints Mary as being engaged before her pregnancy and married when she delivered meaning the virgin birth was a secret yet this allegedly was of the most crucial fulfilements of OT prophecies the Israelites had to know from the very beginning to identify the awaited savior Isa7:14,Matt1:22"All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel". Jesus had to be known as special since the very beginning according to specific criteria in order to be identified, yet not only was the virgin birth obscured to the people but the NT also repeatedly says how the young Jesus was completely unknown in any particular way prior to his ministry in adulthood, see Matt13 for example.
frankie wrote:which an event in itself strongly indicates Jesus's status was even greater than Mohammed's
Firstly, Muslims must regard all prophets and messengers as equals 3:84, but from Allah's perspective He has exalted some above others in some particular aspects 2:253,17:55, this doesnt mean some are greater in "status" than others. For example Moses spoke to and was spoken to directly by Allah, Jesus was a living sign of Allah to the people, along with his mother 21:91,23:50 and given the ability to perform great wonders. Even though all prophets are given clear signs 57:25 and receive divine inspiration through the angels 16:2,102 the manifestation of such phenomenons with Jesus were more pronounced than other prophets which is why 2:253 singles him out.
Muhammad was exalted above other apostles in the following aspects: he was drawn close to God 53:9, sent with a message aimed at all nations 25:1,34:28,62:3,6:19, as a mercy to the worlds 21:107 and light giving torch 33:46, was made the seal of the prophets 33:40, was given the Quran as a guardian over all past revelations 5:48.
Even though Allah exalted some prophets above others in particular aspects relevant to their mission, Muslims are required to believe in all of them equally, not making any distinction between them 2:136,3:84,4:150-2 since Allah has emphatically explained how all revelations are one in essence 46:9,21:7‑10,4:163. Stress is also laid, in different ways, on the principle that rejecting one messenger amounts to rejecting all the messengers because all of them had brought one and the same message from Allah 26:105,123,141,160,176.
Whatever was the special knowledge distinction or ability with which they excelled their people, the prophets always attributed them to God 12:37-40,27:15-19
frankie wrote:Allah himself had a direct involvement in Jesus's creation
God has a constant, direct involvement in all things, all the time. The particular circumstances of Jesus' birth do not make him any different in his humanity. All humans have been created through a process fully in God's hands and have the same constituants 3:59"Surely the likeness of Isa is with Allah as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, "Be", and he was". They are both the manifestation of the creative word 2:117"Be".
frankie wrote:What exactly is the message of Jesus to Muslims and how and why did he convey this message?
Jesus' message was to the Children of Israel. He was the final prophet in a series of prophets sent to them exclusively Matt10:5-6,15:24-26,21,Quran3:49, to warn them of their constant betrayal of their covenant with God, including their hiding and distorton of true expression of the Torah, like Moses foresaw Deut31:25-29 and Jeremiah confirmed Jer7:21,8:8,23:9-36. Being the last one in the line of Israelite prophets, Jesus had to prophecy the coming of the final prophet who would be sent to all of mankind and he did so through his prophecies of the paraclete, as echoed in the Quran 61:6.
Jesus came to verify the Torah, and to allow some of the things that were forbidden to the Jews through the traditions of men 3:50,5:46,(NT Matt15,23). That is why he applied himself to turning their attention away from their oral man-made traditions to the true divine source, the Torah which he claimed to uphold and fulfill to the letter Matt5:17-20. The fulfillement of the Torah refers to the revival of its spirit, that the soulless man made traditions of the Pharisees had distorted beyond recognition Quran43:63,Mk7:7.
manfred wrote:The "injil" is an Arabic rendering of the Greek word "euangelion". However Muslims will generally claim that the Christian Gospels are not Jesus's "injil". He was "given" this "injil, and then it was lost/corrupted.
Some say it is the Taarib (conversion and adoption of a foreign word into the Arabic language, without necessarly retaining the original meaning) of the Greek word evangelion/good news (gospel in English). If that is the case, then the Quran only recognizes one among several -canonical or not- gospels as it speaks of "Injil" in the singular, a revelation stamped into Jesus's heart since his infancy 3:3,48,19:30 a source of guidance, admonition, light and wisdom 3:48,5:44,46 verifying the Torah that precedes it 3:50,5:46 while abolishing to the Jews the self imposed restrictions of their man-made soulless traditions, as well as giving glad tidings of a prophet to come after him.
Like the past Israelite prophets, Jesus put into writing what was revealed to him of wisdom, teachings, prophecies, warnings and admonitions 7:157. There is no reason to assume he would have done any differently than the likes of David, Jeremiah or Isaiah who put into writing what was revealed to them. While part of his scripture made it in its uncorrupted form into the current Greek NT, another part did not make it either due to negligence, forgetfulness, or some was discarded and worse yet obscured and tampered with as it did not fit the message, ideas and bias of the unknown Greek NT writers and later Bible compilers 5:14-15. The current NT is in great majority a compilation of writings about Jesus, not of Jesus, and contains some authentic elements from his revealed scripture, the Injil. That is why the Quran refers to the Book in the hands of its Christian addressees as Injil in the singular; it only recognizes whatever remains from Jesus' scripture among other canonized scriptures in Christian hands as true.
manfred wrote:To make it worse, Jesus did not die on the cross
He didnt
manfred wrote:Allah saved him by deception, thereby deliberately starting the false religion of Christianity. Only centuries later did Allah send old Mo to explain it all, so Allah was not bothered about having led millions of Christians astray who lived before Mohammed ...
You tried this before viewtopic.php?f=21&t=14095&start=20#p191671" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Christians have only themselves to blame for believing a lie none of those who are alleged to have written their testimonies of the event have even witnessed
manfred wrote:So Jesus in Islam was a FAILED prophet
He succeeded 100% in conveying the message he was meant to convey. However your NT blunders by claiming him to be the Jewish messiah prophecied in the OT yet none of the OT criteria of the Jewish Messiah are fulfilled in Jesus, from his genealogy to his death. The NT also paints him as a false prophet due to the failure of his end time prophecies, but that is another discussion.
manfred wrote:He has very little other purpose in Islam beyond being one of many biblical figures used by Mohammed to prop up his claims
You mean like past scriptures and prophets quoted by Jesus and the unknown writers and compilers of your NT are used to qualify Jesus' claims?
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sum
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Re: What purpose does Jesus serve to Muslims

Post by sum »

The Koranic claim that muslims must regard all prophets as equals is simply an attempt to consolidate Muhammad`s claim to be a prophet and elevate his status from being an obvious warlord. To attempt to make Muhammad equal to Jesus is so far fetched as to be laughable. Perhaps Eagle could tell us how the message of Muhammad was superior to the message of Jesus rather than being equal.

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Re: What purpose does Jesus serve to Muslims

Post by manfred »

He succeeded 100% in conveying the message he was meant to convey.
So... where is it?? :???:
Christians have only themselves to blame for believing a lie
They are to blame for Allah's deception?
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Re: What purpose does Jesus serve to Muslims

Post by frankie »

Eagle:
Muslims claim Jesus to be a prophet of Islam,when his teachings diametricaly oppose what the Quran teaches.Jesus is said to BE the Gospel "Good news" not have been given a book with that name,otherwise his mircaculous birth would mean nothing,God would have gone to all that trouble of becoming involved with just a human,whose message was rejected anyway,and whose existance on earth was therefore meaningless.

The message of Jesus as you say, was fulfilled by the Torah.Exodus forms part of the Torah,when Moses received the Ten Commandments,for humanity to follow for all time.This Law can be summed up in one sentence,to love your neighbour as yourself.This love does not hate, discriminate or creates inequality when followed correctly.

The message in the Quran however,explicitly commands non friendship,discrimination, inequality,and the fighting of unbelievers, throughout its pages,until all sumbit to its god and prophet,as do the ways and example of this prophet,Mohammed.

If you are claiming Jesus's message says the same,then you are in error.Manuscripts held today show clearly where the O.T. and N.T. get their existance.These manuscripts have been examined by both believers and unbelievers in God,to determine what they say,who said them, and when they were said.The claim then that both such teachings could have been changed at some point in time, does not stand up to scrutiny. The same reasonings can be used for the existance of, and crucifixion of a man named Jesus from various non Christian historical sources,which you totally reject on another thread.

Such rejection suggests a mind which does not accept reallity, but claims to accept a faith which has no evidence whatsoever to prove is existance,only the word of one man,who is shown by these very teachings to be a man of violence,who thought only of himself to gain power,wealth and control to feed his diabolical ego.

Maybe its's time for you to question hard your teachings, which command you to fight and kill unbelievers in the name of its god and prophet.Such teachings cannot be from a divine source.For a so called god to use a man like Mohammed to preach about it,just shows what sort of god Mohammed believed in.A vengeful,deceiving entity which mirrors exactly its prophets characteristics.
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Re: What purpose does Jesus serve to Muslims

Post by Garudaman »

QS. 5:75. The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded.

to show that considers man as God, is included associating partners with God! :sml:
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pr126
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Re: What purpose does Jesus serve to Muslims

Post by pr126 »

Allah does have a partner, it is Muhammad.
They even share the booty in Quran 8:41.
Islam: an idea to kill and die for.
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manfred
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Re: What purpose does Jesus serve to Muslims

Post by manfred »

manfred wrote:
He succeeded 100% in conveying the message he was meant to convey.
So... where is it?? :???:
Christians have only themselves to blame for believing a lie
They are to blame for Allah's deception?
Ok, Eagle, no worries, it seems you don't want to tell us, as you moved to a different topic...
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frankie
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Re: What purpose does Jesus serve to Muslims

Post by frankie »

Garudaman wrote:QS. 5:75. The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded.

to show that considers man as God, is included associating partners with God! :sml:
Garudaman:

But Allahs spirit dictated that Jesus be born from a woman,which in effect makes Jesus part devine and part human,which in itself does associate Allah with man.

Why is it that Muslims do not see it this way?
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Re: What purpose does Jesus serve to Muslims

Post by Eagle »

manfred wrote:Ok, Eagle, no worries, it seems you don't want to tell us, as you moved to a different topic...
Your questions were answered even before you uttered them. Just look closer at the previous posts
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manfred
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Re: What purpose does Jesus serve to Muslims

Post by manfred »

Eagle wrote:
manfred wrote:Ok, Eagle, no worries, it seems you don't want to tell us, as you moved to a different topic...
Your questions were answered even before you uttered them. Just look closer at the previous posts
Oh dear,
you mean the unfounded assertion that Jesus wrote a gospel is your answer? I thought that was your sense of humour...

Why did Allah allow this text to disappear/get corrupted? Or could he not prevent that?

And if Allah allows this farce once, then surely, given what we know about the history of the Qur'an, Allah, the best of deceivers, has been at it again....


There not a single suggestion in any Christian source that Jesus wrote a gospel or any other text, is there? And along comes proven liar Mohammed, and we are to take his word for such nonsense? Or yours?

Show me the text that Jesus wrote. NONE of the gospels I have ever heard of, not even the fake ones written by Muslims, claim that Jesus was the author. The earliest and most reliable ones we have, the canonical ones, are both an attempt to tell the story of Jesus as accurately as possible, and an expression of faith. The canonical texts are related to each other, and there may well have been a common earlier source for three of them. Nobody ever suggested that Jesus wrote some "injil", or indeed committed anything to writing. All are very clear that the real purpose of Jesus went far beyond being a mere messenger or teacher.

So why is the Qur'an retracting the real purpose of Jesus?
Like the past Israelite prophets, Jesus put into writing what was revealed to him of wisdom, teachings, prophecies, warnings and admonitions 7:157.
What a load of tripe. We have no such text. We have no REFERENCE to any such text. Not a SINGLE quote of the "injil" of Jesus. Why not? Because there never was such a thing.

Also I am interested in your lame excuse for the other thing I have asked you repeatedly, which you ignore... How are the Christians to blame for Allah's deception? The Qur'an tells us ALLAH, not the Christians, made it appear as if Jesus was crucified. Allah did it. He admitted it in your little green book.

So, the "Christians", if that what they were before the resurrection event, have no way of winning this game with Allah the best of deceivers: If they accept his deception as fact, they are mislead and will be doomed. If they do not they have disbelieved God and will also be doomed.

Again, if Allah can play such a cruel trick on the Christians, why on earth are you so sure that he was not laughing his head off on his water closet, sorry, "throne above the waters", when the Muslims actually believed the professional crook Mohammed to be a prophet???

Or were the Arabs really that stupid?
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Eagle
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Re: What purpose does Jesus serve to Muslims

Post by Eagle »

manfred wrote:Oh dear,
you mean the unfounded assertion that Jesus wrote a gospel is your answer?
No dear, go back to your original accusation of Jesus being a failed prophet in Islam (while it is actually your NT that paints him as such). You were told he wasnt because he succeeded in conveying the message he was meant to convey to his nation. Whether that message survived now or not is irrelevant.
manfred wrote:Why did Allah allow this text to disappear/get corrupted? Or could he not prevent that?
Sure, but God placed the responsibility on humans to preserve the integrity of His revelations over time 5:44. But the people themselves, after revelation and knowledge came to them, began to confuse the truth 42:14. At that point God could have judged between the people immidiately when corruption started apearing 41:45 but He has decreed that mankind shall bear the responsibility for straying away from the truth once it has reached them in its unaltered form, that there will be no compulsion in religion 2:256,18:29 that true believers in their revelations and seeking guidance will find the way to the straight path 2:213 because although the corruption of their scriptures is a historical fact independant of what the Quran says, their corruption is not absolute which is precisely why the Quran refers to itself as the Muhaymin/Guardian of past scriptures, ie it guards what is still true in them, reveals what has been hidden or misintrepreted, exposes their most important falsehoods that are essential for the establishment of the true Faith while disregarding many other such things 5:15"O followers of the Book! indeed Our Messenger has come to you making clear to you much of what you concealed of the Book and passing over much; indeed, there has come to you light and a clear Book from Allah. With it Allah guides him who will follow His pleasure into the ways of safety and brings them out of utter darkness into light by His will and guides them to the right path".

The reason for the protection of a revelation is linked with the discontinuation of the institution of prophethood after Muhammad. While the line of Prophethood was active, there was no need to protect the Scriptures as they were secondary compared to the current prophet's word of mouth, which was the primary source of God's religion 35:24"and there is not a people but a warner has gone among them". Each Prophet was always as reliable and as powerful an authority of God's laws as the previous. As no further prophet was to be sent to Mankind, it became crucial for the guidance of man, that the final Message be guarded intact by God Himself until the Final Day. Through the Quran referred to as the Reminder, Guardian, Criterion or Balance all other scriptures are safely restored to their pristine originality and preserved through a divine pledge.

God always grants respite to the people and allows them to choose their own path after receiving guidance. This is an ongoing process since the line of prophethood was initiated, so the argument of 600 years gap between Jesus and Muhammad during which Christians were left in obscurity is misplaced. According to the judeo-christian belief for example, Malachi was the last of the minor prophets and 400 years later Jesus was sent to the Israelites in order to clear the falsehood of the Israelite elite 5:19"O followers of the Book! indeed Our Messenger has come to you explaining to you after a cessation of the (mission of the) messengers, lest you say: There came not to us a giver of good news or a warner, so indeed there has come to you a giver of good news and a warner; and Allah has power over all things".
Also, many prophets were sent to Israel to warn them of their disobedience but many were killed or rejected as Jesus amply says in the NT. God surely was doing his job by sending Prophets until Muhammad to correct their lies and expose them, just like Jeremiah did in the OT. It just so happened that Israel was so degraded that the guilty and corrupt always came back into power to manipulate the truth once again. This was the case during the time of Jesus, and even Muhammad 5:62-63"And you will see many of them striving with one another to hasten in sin and exceeding the limits, and their eating of what is unlawfully acquired; certainly evil is that which they do. Why do not the learned men and the doctors of law prohibit them from their speaking of what is sinful and their eating of what is unlawfully acquired? Certainly evil is that which they work".
manfred wrote:Allah, the best of deceivers
You mean like YHWH the creator of evil Deut30:15,Isa45:7?

That is an old game you and your kind have been attempting to play and it belongs in the spoiler since it has so often been replayed to this forum population. You can open it for details, or skip to the conclusion
Spoiler! :
Allah is the best (Khair means best in the sense of good and positive) Al Makireen 3:54,8:30, the best of planners because He always plan for the good, and only Him knows what is good or bad from His perspective. MAKARA (to plan) can mean to plan for the good or plan for the bad and if it is for the latter then the bad intention (saiia) must be mentionned as in 40:45 when speaking of Allah protecting Musa from Firon's plans, the Quran specifies that this plan of Firon was evil (saiaat). Again in 35:10,43 the Quran uses saiaat to specify how the evil people are planning for the bad. When saiia is not used then the context clearly specifies what type of makar the people are devising 27:48-50,8:30,10:21 by showing who is trying to deceive who. It is the never changing sunna/way of Allah that He will always counter the evil plans of those people planning against Him no matter how elaborate their plan is 14:46"though their plan was such that the mountains should pass away thereby", with a good plan: He is the best (Khair) Al Makireen as in Ibrahim, Jesus or the early Muslims' cases. 16:45"Do they then who plan (makaru) evil (assaiia) feel secure.." also speaks of the people who plan (makar) bad things (saiiat) which implies that plans (makar) can also be for the good (khair), as in Allah's case or any person with good intentions.

The Arabic for "to deceive" is khada'a, as in 2:9 when speaking of those trying to deceive Allah and the believers while they only deceive themselves. It is the law of Allah that if one intends to deceive Him, mock His communications 6:10,15:11-15 or actively fight His guidance 4:115 then that deceit, mockery or violence will encompass him 45:33, hardening his heart through a seal of his spiritual senses that will utlimately cause his doom, when his appointed time of respite expires 16:33-34,86:15-17,21:38-41"And they say: When will this threat come to pass if you are truthful? Had those who disbelieve but known (of the time) when they shall not be able to ward off the fire from their faces nor from their backs, nor shall they be helped. Nay, it shall come on them all of a sudden and cause them to become confounded, so they shall not have the power to avert it, nor shall they be respited. And certainly messengers before you were scoffed at, then there befell those of them who scoffed that at which they had scoffed". That deception which they attempt at using against Allah, was always 14:46"with Allah" ie fully controlled by Him 85:20"And Allah encompasses them on every side" and He will make it ineffective by reversing its intended purpose;

In accordance with Allah's law of causality 2:9, the Quran presents in 4:142 the hypocrites striving to deceive Allah, then this same deception is returned to them by Allah, and this is the only verse attributing khada3a (to deceive) to Allah. That decepion, which is in fact self-deception and the result of one's actions, is attributed to Allah because as in all universal natural and spiritual phenomenons, it is in accordance with His laws that the disbelievers or those seeking to harm His cause will destroy their own souls without perceiving, whether through the 41:23"(evil) thought which you entertained about your Lord that has tumbled you down into perdition" or through the active struggle of the enemies of Islam who 40:25,4:113"do not bring (aught) to perdition but their own souls", deceiving their own selves without perceiving 16:45-7,6:123"and they do not plan but against their own souls, and they do not perceive" in their attempts at ruining the faith of the believers 6:26"they only bring destruction upon their own souls while they do not perceive". They do not perceive that their behavior is causing their own destruction in degrees, and that is Allah's plan that is unleashed on those who bring it upon themselves 7:182-3,68:44-45"We will overtake them by degrees, from whence they perceive not: And I do bear with them, surely My plan is firm". Destruction coming on them "from whence they perceive not" refers to it coming from the very reality they denied and called a lie 39:25-48"Those before them denied, so the chastisement came to them from whence they perceived not..and what they never thought of shall become plain to them from Allah". The gradual destruction of those who plan against Allah is in fact a sign of compassion to them, they are given successive wakeup calls to mend their ways 16:47.

Therefore, and as defined in Lane's Lexicon, when used for Allah khadaa means "He requited to him his deceit".
The Quran in 16:26 uses the image of a building collapsing on the one devising evil plans, as in 35:43"and the evil plans shall not beset any save the authors of it", their deception is returned to them while they do not perceive 16:34"So the evil (consequences) of what they did shall afflict them and that which they mocked shall encompass them", causing them destruction through their own hands 8:51"This is for what your own hands have sent on before" and taking them to the ultimate abode, described in the Quran as "lying in wait" for those heedless of it 78:21.

It is also to be noted that, contrary to 3:54,8:30 Allah never describes Himself as the khair al khadi3een because khair (good) cannot be used with khada3a which is an evil act.
Makar therefore does not mean to deceive but to plan, either for good or for bad, this is further irrefutable through the following 7:123"Firon said: Do you believe in Him before I have given you permission? Surely this is a plot which you have secretly devised (makar makartumuhu) in this city".
If makar means to deceive then this verse would be nonsensical both linguistically and logically and would be rendered "this is a deception which you have deceived" but since makar means to plan then the verse literally means "this is a plan which you have planned" and only the context or the explicit word saiia can determine if the plan is evil.
The same case is repeated in 27:50 where makara can only mean to plan NOT to deceive or the verse would be nonsensical "And they planned (makaru) a plan (makran), and We planned (makarna) a plan (makran) while they perceived not".
manfred wrote:There not a single suggestion in any Christian source that Jesus wrote a gospel or any other text, is there?
Where is the suggestion that he didnt, considering the tradition of Israelite prophets he himself appeals to, and how long after Jesus death did the unknown NT writers began fabricating their various and evolving NT canons?
manfred wrote:the earliest and most reliable ones we have, the canonical ones, are both an attempt to tell the story of Jesus as accurately as possible, and an expression of faith. The canonical texts are related to each other, and there may well have been a common earlier source for three of them. Nobody ever suggested that Jesus wrote some "injil", or indeed committed anything to writing.
Why would anyone suggest that he did, when as you just stated, the different writers' aim was to relate their own perception of Jesus' teachings, and advance their own agenda as most scholars agree that the synoptic gospels each had a specific aim towards a specific audience
manfred wrote:All are very clear that the real purpose of Jesus went far beyond being a mere messenger or teacher
Sure according to their own interpolations
manfred wrote:So why is the Qur'an retracting the real purpose of Jesus?
It doesnt, it confirms what his prophetic purpose was, while clearing the unfounded interpolations of those unknown people that wrote about him without even having known him or witnessed his ministry.
manfred wrote:We have no such text. We have no REFERENCE to any such text
Because your forefathers have lost the earliest writings of your own people, and would be incapable of telling what writings were truly left to posterity by Jesus and his small band of followers
manfred wrote: How are the Christians to blame for Allah's deception? The Qur'an tells us ALLAH, not the Christians, made it appear as if Jesus was crucified.
That is not what the Quran says, and you've already been repeatedly taught what it truly says viewtopic.php?f=21&t=14095&start=20#p191671" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Christians have only themselves to blame for believing a lie none of those who are alleged to have written their testimonies of the event have even witnessed
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manfred
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Re: What purpose does Jesus serve to Muslims

Post by manfred »

Jesus' message was to the Children of Israel. He was the final prophet in a series of prophets sent to them exclusively
Your words.

So, not only did Jesus write a "gospel", it was addressed to the Israelites. So did the Jews carefully preserve the text? Did they follow the Torah more faithfully than before?

No they didn't.

Did the Jews honour Jesus as a prophet? No they didn't either. They viewed him as someone who could upset the delicate truce with the Romans, a troublemaker, disrespectful to religious authority, even a heretic. They arranged for his disposal in the end. Just then Allah came along and did his little parlour trick, saving him SECRETLY, thereby deliberately starting a FALSE religion, according to you. So, if Allah wanted to do something to sort out this fiasco, why did he not PUBLICLY save him, or otherwise see to it that his messenger would be heard?

Also, If Jesus, as you claim merely wanted to "confirm" the Torah, as if it needed confirming, then why are the Muslims not following the Torah? Did Mohammed confirm the Torah?

Does that sound like a successful prophet to you?

You also say that Jesus "pointed" at a later "prophet", presumably Mohammed. Who says so? The old crook Mohammed. Did Mohammed teach what Jesus taught? No. So that claim is obvious nonsense.

Again, read the text, not into the text:
QS. 4:157. And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

Who exactly played this little trick? Not the Christians, Not the Jews. Not the Romans. ALLAH, the best of deceivers, admits to the crime in your own precious green book. Twist and turn as much as you like. The text says what it says.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"
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Re: What purpose does Jesus serve to Muslims

Post by Eagle »

The success of a prophet's mission of being the faithful conveyor of his God's message is independant of whether his addressees hearken his calls, mend their ways, preserve his message or attempt to kill him. All prophets, including Jesus in your NT attest to this reality.

All Israelite prophets after Moses, including Jesus confirmed the past revelations, including the Torah. REmember what Jesus stated in your NT about him coming to fulfill it. In Quran terminology, the confirmation of previous scriptures means 2 things:
- the fulfillement of its prophecies
- the reiteration of its verities

As for your translation of 4:157, choose another one or go to the Arabic source. It does not say what you claim it does.
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Re: What purpose does Jesus serve to Muslims

Post by manfred »

So did Mohammed endorse the Torah? Do Muslims follow the Torah? Do Muslims follow the gospels, for that matter?

Effectively you are saying all of the previous efforts of Allah to reveal his will to mankind ALL went wrong. He was terribly bad at making sense to people.

So, as a further (allegedly final) complete rewrite he send the warlord, murderer, rapist and child molester Mohammed. Maybe he was was fed up with humanity and sent him as a joke? As a sign of disgust? Allah wanted us to understand how little he cares about humanity?

and this clown points to all the failed previous efforts of allah and says, look at me, I am a blessing to mankind, allah's final answer.

You have got to be kidding me....


There is a rather more obvious, more plausible explanation: Mo was a fraud. Then the whole thing makes sense.
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Re: What purpose does Jesus serve to Muslims

Post by SAM »

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, son of Mary (Jesus) will shortly descend amongst you people (Muslims) as a just ruler and will break the Cross and kill the pig and abolish the Jizya (a tax taken from the non-Muslims, who are in the protection, of the Muslim government). Then there will be abundance of money and no-body will accept charitable gifts.

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until the son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you as a just ruler, he will break the cross, kill the pigs, and abolish the Jizya tax. Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it (as charitable gifts).
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
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Re: What purpose does Jesus serve to Muslims

Post by manfred »

Hi,
thank you for posting that. In Christianity we are told that the Christian Jesus will return to judge the living and the dead on the "last day".

Islam has a similar idea:
And (Jesus) shall be a sign for (the coming of) hour (of Judgement). Surah 43:61
That is, as far as I know, all the Qur'an says on that subject. So it clearly is not a very important issue for Islam.

There are a few Hadith that fill in the details that the Qur'an is lacking, like the ones you have posted.

Islam does not see Jesus as a central figure in eschatology, in fact it looks to me as if Muslims are kind of lost at the attempt to assign a role to him.

Kill a pig? Why? Make sausages? Have a barbeque?
And it needs someone to descend from heaven to abolish an unjust tax?
Become emperor of the whole world? North Korea even? China? Saudi Arabia ruled by a Jew?

There is another Hadith I vaguely remember but cannot find right now, which says that Jesus will come down from heaven at noon prayer next to a particular minaret of a mosque in Syria, and then lead the midday prayer...

I did find that kind of cute... So he arrived next to the mosque, at a precisely specified spot, strolls in, says "Hi, I am Jesus the Jew, and I am going to lead the midday prayer." Do you think he would get out of that alive? Is the last day not supposed to come AFTER Muslims have killed ALL the Jews?

Apparently he also is getting married and lives for a further forty years. Does this serve any purpose?

So perhaps you want to explain WHY Jesus will return according to Islam and what exactly his role is on judgement day? The Qur'an forgot to tell us, so how can you be sure?
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"
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