The gods have let me down.

[iffo]

You have scientific proof that Jesus existed and he was divine?

There has been a huge body of work done on the historical Jesus dating from late 18th century, see also History of Historical Jesus research. A small number of biblical scholars hold the Jesus myth theory, that there was no actual person. However I agree with the majority of scholars that there was, in all likelihood, an actual person in history called Jesus who had a great influence on religious thinking. Funnily enough, reading the wikipedia articles, I found that my position is exactly the same as that of Richard Dawkins who puts it like this: [while Jesus probably existed, it is] "possible to mount a serious, though not widely supported, historical case that Jesus never lived at all." The way I put it was:

From all of that I have concluded that Jesus was probably an actual historical figure who left a big impression with his novel ideas about morality and salvation. On the other hand, comparative mythology studies make it pretty clear that the portrait of Jesus in the bible is largely a composite myth. And I accept it as such.

I think it may be causing you - and some others - a problem here. I accept Jesus as probably an actual historical figure while also accepting that the biblical portrait of him is largely a composite myth. If you think about this for just a few seconds you will see that it is entirely consistent and compatible to accept both of these conclusions. They are not at all incompatible or contradictory.

As for the "Jesus was divine" bit, your poor English is showing through. Divinity is not part of the historical process. So if someone is divine they are divine, you can't ever say that they were divine.

From the point of view of science, in this case the science of psychology of religion, all that matters is the fact of people perceiving Jesus as divine and salvific. It is an objective fact that people see Jesus that way. And it is a reasonable conclusion to draw that I can and you can and anyone can see Jesus that way. If you read carefully what I write, you will see that I say no more than that.

Again, please be done with the straw men.

Sweet heart you have no proof to say Jesus is divine, or is god etc. It is just what you want to believe in. So what did that Jesus say and wanted people to do? since you have put bible aside.

BTW I like your thinking , you are not very far from becoming a muslim, because we believe the sameway

[CuteCoot]

Sweet heart you have no proof to say Jesus is divine, or is god etc. It is just what you want to believe in. So what did that Jesus say and wanted people to do? since you have put bible aside

It's clear to me that you are failing to understand or digest what I am writing. As a result, we are talking at cross purposes and going nowhere. If something changes, I'll consider answering more of your questions but for now... nah.

[iffo]

Sweet heart you have no proof to say Jesus is divine, or is god etc. It is just what you want to believe in. So what did that Jesus say and wanted people to do? since you have put bible aside

It's clear to me that you are failing to understand or digest what I am writing. As a result, we are talking at cross purposes and going nowhere. If something changes, I'll consider answering more of your questions but for now... nah.

So you running away ........... You really don't have any proof of jesus divine nature correct? that's why decided to run away?

[CuteCoot]

that's why decided to run away?

I said it once and I'm saying it again ... nah. Make of it what you will.

[Sten]

So you running away ........... You really don't have any proof of jesus divine nature correct? that's why decided to run away?

Are you seeing any kind of a parallel here, Iffo?

[iffo]

that's why decided to run away?

I said it once and I'm saying it again ... nah. Make of it what you will.

ohh basically admitting your defeat ........... basically you were lying and bull shitting when saying that you had scientific proof that Jesus is divine etc, hoping you will get away with it... well here is a lesson for you ........... don't lie again.

@Sten
No Sten I don't ........... some day you will know what I meant when I say no parallel

[pr126]

Horus, Mithra, Dionysus, and 12 more deities at different times share the same story as Jesus.

You clearly can be bothered to count my posts but you have no time left to read them.

I wrote above: "On the other hand, comparative mythology studies make it pretty clear that the portrait of Jesus in the bible is largely a composite myth. And I accept it as such."

Please go find someone else to tickle with your straw men.

Strawman? What strawman?

[Sten]

No Sten I don't ........... some day you will know what I meant when I say no parallel

I surely don't know what you mean. There is as much evidence for the divinity of Jesus as there is for the divine origins of the Quran - that is, no evidence at all. I am trying to get you to realize that you are very selective in your criticism of things that have lack of evidence. You're very good at spotting bullsh|t, except when it comes to your own religion. That is an excellent example of a brainwashed mind.

[iffo]

No Sten I don't ........... some day you will know what I meant when I say no parallel

I surely don't know what you mean. There is as much evidence for the divinity of Jesus as there is for the divine origins of the Quran - that is, no evidence at all. I am trying to get you to realize that you are very selective in your criticism of things that have lack of evidence. You're very good at spotting bullsh|t, except when it comes to your own religion. That is an excellent example of a brainwashed mind.

Trust me some day you will know that neither I am brain washed neither selective ........ I am the most fair and open minded person on the planet ever ..

[Sten]

Trust me some day you will know that neither I am brain washed neither selective ........ I am the most fair and open minded person on the planet ever ..

I'm sorry Iffo but telling me "some day you will know" is not good enough. If you are not able to explain why the Quran is divine while Jesus is not, yet you still believe that the Quran is divine while criticizing others for their belief in Jesus, then you are being brainwashed and selective. You just finished criticizing Coot about being evasive, and here you are doing the exact same thing yourself.

Stop and examine your own behaviour for a minute, and you will see that I speak the truth. Is answering a logical question with "some day you will know" the mark of an open minded and fair person, or is it the mark of a brainwashed man who doesn't know why he believes? It is obvious to me that you can spot BS everywhere except in your own beliefs.

Your answer of "some day you will know" is no better than Coot's "leave me alone and don't question me" answer. You do understand this, right?

[iffo]

Trust me some day you will know that neither I am brain washed neither selective ........ I am the most fair and open minded person on the planet ever ..

I'm sorry Iffo but telling me "some day you will know" is not good enough. If you are not able to explain why the Quran is divine while Jesus is not, yet you still believe that the Quran is divine while criticizing others for their belief in Jesus, then you are being brainwashed and selective. You just finished criticizing Coot about being evasive, and here you are doing the exact same thing yourself.

Stop and examine your own behaviour for a minute, and you will see that I speak the truth. Is answering a logical question with "some day you will know" the mark of an open minded and fair person, or is it the mark of a brainwashed man who doesn't know why he believes? It is obvious to me that you can spot BS everywhere except in your own beliefs.

Your answer of "some day you will know" is no better than Coot's "leave me alone and don't question me" answer. You do understand this, right?

difference between me and cutecoot is huge, now you just have to be patient, i will prove it to you soon.

[Sten]

difference between me and cutecoot is huge, now you just have to be patient, i will prove it to you soon.

Sure Iffo. Whatever you say. It's only brainwashing and denial when other people do it.

The irony, it slices like a razor...

[Fathom]

Difference between me and cutecoot is huge, now you just have to be patient, i will prove it to you soon.

Have you ever questioned why you believe?

In my studies, the big reason why people want to believe in God/Allah is because they are afraid of death. They have been trained to believe that there is an after-life, and if they do not believe, then they will either have no after-life at all, or go to some place called Hell.

In short, people believe because they are afraid.

I can't say that is why you believe, but in general- when it comes right down to it- most people believe because they are afraid.

What do you think? Why do people believe?

[CuteCoot]

Why do people believe?

You say they believe because they're afraid of dying.

Mystics from all faith traditions say that those who don't believe are afraid of dying. That's because you only achieve liberation (or salvation or whatever name it may be called) by dying first and being reborn. The really practised mystics - Rumi was one such mystic - these people keep dying all the time. Hardly a day goes by that they don't die. Atheists don't have the guts to die even once. They just wait around for the life processes to terminate. How tedious is that?

[Fathom]

Why do people believe?

You say they believe because they're afraid of dying.

Mystics from all faith traditions say that those who don't believe are afraid of dying. That's because you only achieve liberation (or salvation or whatever name it may be called) by dying first and being reborn. The really practised mystics - Rumi was one such mystic - these people keep dying all the time. Hardly a day goes by that they don't die. Atheists don't have the guts to die even once. They just wait around for the life processes to terminate. How tedious is that?

None of what you said above has a single iota of evidence for support.

I am an atheist and have no reason to fear dying. What is there to fear? Nothing. How can you be afraid of nothing?

[CuteCoot]

None of what you said above has a single iota of evidence for support.

And nor does your own statement above.

I am an atheist and have no reason to fear dying.

If you say so, then I guess it must be so?

[Fathom]

None of what you said above has a single iota of evidence for support.

And nor does your own statement above.

Yes it does. The fact that there is no evidence gives reason enough. You are the one making the positive claim, therefore your claim requires evidence to verify it, otherwise it is empty, void, null, and absolutely meaningless.

I am an atheist and have no reason to fear dying.

If you say so, then I guess it must be so?

Well of course, since I am talking about myself why wouldn't it be so?

[CuteCoot]

Yes it does. The fact that there is no evidence gives reason enough. You are the one making the positive claim, therefore your claim requires evidence to verify it, otherwise it is empty, void, null, and absolutely meaningless.

Yours is indeed a positive claim. I did provide evidence but you dismissed it. So you are saying that only evidence of a certain sort is admissible. That is a positive statement with no evidence in support of it.

Well of course, since I am talking about myself why wouldn't it be so?

You could consult Freud on this.

International Dictionary of Psychoanalysis: "The term negation (Verneinung) denotes a mental process in which the subject formulates the content of an unconscious wish in a negative form. The content of the wish finds expression in consciousness, yet the subject continues to disown it."

Negation and its Reliabilities:

The paradoxical mechanism which produces the opposite meaning of the enunciated proposition is what Sigmund Freud called Verneinung (negation). As Freud noted, certain utterances like "You ask me who this person in my dream might be. It is not the mother" must be immediately understood in the opposite sense: "So it is the mother."

Ah ... but Freud doesn't count because he wasn't a proper positivistic empirical scientist. Evidence inadmissible.

[Fathom]

Yours is indeed a positive claim. I did provide evidence but you dismissed it.

You provided no evidence to dismiss. You're trying to tell me that because some guy "says it's so" it must be true? With that logic, I can claim there's a Flying Teapot governing outer space, and then that also must be true, right? With your logic, if someone tells a lie, would it make it the truth just because he said it was true?

It's stunning how you fail to understand this. Absolutely astounding.

So you are saying that only evidence of a certain sort is admissible. That is a positive statement with no evidence in support of it.

It is a positive statement, but it is not a positive claim. And that positive statement is what is known as self-evident, requiring no further evidence other than itself.

You could consult Freud on this.

Your reference to Freud is non sequitur to my statement. It simply does not follow. In fact, that quote of Freud has absolutely nothing to do with my statement.

Don't know who you're trying to impress, but those of us with a clue are substantially less than impressed.

[CuteCoot]

Absolutely astounding.

lol ... I'll just leave you astounded then.