Welcome Anonymous, It is currently Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:32 am                    >>Main Site<<

Was Prophet Muhammad a liar, and manipulator?

His life, his examples and his psychology

Was Prophet Muhammad a liar, and manipulator?

Postby HollowScar » Sat Jan 16, 2010 6:59 am

Now, we believe that he was, but my friend claimed that Prophet Muhammad never lied. After all, when he was young, the angels came, and cleaned his heart, in full witness of the children around? So is there anything (verses or hadiths) to show this?
"Do you remember what you told me once? That every passing minute is a another chance to turn it all around" - Vanilla Sky
"If I could just go back... if I could rub everything out... starting with myself" - The Talented Mr. Ripley
User avatar
HollowScar
 
Posts: 502
Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2009 9:06 am
Gender: Male

Re: Was Prophet Muhammad a liar, and manipulator?

Postby yeezevee » Sat Jan 16, 2010 7:44 am

Now, we believe that he was, but my friend claimed that Prophet Muhammad never lied. After all, when he was young, the angels came, and cleaned his heart, in full witness of the children around? So is there anything (verses or hadiths) to show this?
that question.. you should have asked your friend dear HollowScar ., In fact there is nothing like that in Quran

those angels who visited the boy Muhammad could have helped humanity immensely, instead removing his heart and cleansing it, If they would have removed his male organ and stitch a female organ over there.

Any way there is nothing in Quran like that ., but stories from hadith.. there must be plenty from Muslim bums... here is one..

http://wulfrunasufi.wordpress.com/birth ... mmad-pbuh/

The Holy Birth

An angel came and asked Amina to drink from a cup in his hand. This drink was whiter than milk and sweeter than honey. She then saw the gates of Heaven open. The angels came down for the adoration of the new babe. Three angels went towards the Kabah. One angel stayed over the Kabah, one went to the East and the other towards the West. A light then spread out lighting up the universe. In this miraculous light, Amina could see distinctly the palaces of Palestine and Syria.
some times the Stupidity of Muslims is mind boggling..

with best wishes
yeezevee
yeezevee
 
Posts: 6711
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:17 pm
Gender: None specified

Re: Was Prophet Muhammad a liar, and manipulator?

Postby HollowScar » Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:50 am

You do understand, that as a former Muslim, and a current Agnostic, I have to consider these stories, and refute them with flaws, rather than logic. After all, this is what religions are based off. Anyway's i wanted to proove that Muhammad made up all the stuff, but if the Hadith's claim that there were more eyewitnesses, then I guess I cannot do that.

Again, this is my only friend that actually goes out of his way, and takes the time to explain Hadith's for me. The other few of my friends, tell me that I never understood the meaning, and left me like that. Then there are those that are more or less have witch hunter attitude, by claiming I work for Satan, or I help Satan, or I am like Satan. One person actually threw me to the verge of depression, by spurting out foul words. It does not help, when the students who come from Engineering background, or Physics background try to disapprove you.

Thanks Mr. yeezevee for your information.
"Do you remember what you told me once? That every passing minute is a another chance to turn it all around" - Vanilla Sky
"If I could just go back... if I could rub everything out... starting with myself" - The Talented Mr. Ripley
User avatar
HollowScar
 
Posts: 502
Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2009 9:06 am
Gender: Male

Re: Was Prophet Muhammad a liar, and manipulator?

Postby piscohot » Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:02 am

HollowScar wrote:Now, we believe that he was, but my friend claimed that Prophet Muhammad never lied. After all, when he was young, the angels came, and cleaned his heart, in full witness of the children around? So is there anything (verses or hadiths) to show this?


1. nobody witnessed anything...

2. you don't clean the heart of someone, you 'clean' his brains.
Quran miracle (16:69) : Bees eat ALL fruits
Quran miracle (27:18) : an ant SAID, "O ants, enter your dwellings that you not be crushed by Solomon and his soldiers while they perceive not."
piscohot
 
Posts: 2034
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:16 am
Gender: None specified

Re: Was Prophet Muhammad a liar, and manipulator?

Postby skynightblaze » Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:16 am

HollowScar wrote:Now, we believe that he was, but my friend claimed that Prophet Muhammad never lied. After all, when he was young, the angels came, and cleaned his heart, in full witness of the children around? So is there anything (verses or hadiths) to show this?


1)http://prophetofdoom.net/Islamic_Quotes_Deception.Islam

2) http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Lying_for_Islam


You can find quotes here that you need .Ofcourse Muhhamad lied all the way when he wrote quran and he was a complete manipulator to take advantage of the situation.
Last edited by skynightblaze on Sat Jan 16, 2010 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.
User avatar
skynightblaze
 
Posts: 3649
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:51 am
Gender: Male

Re: Was Prophet Muhammad a liar, and manipulator?

Postby sum » Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:57 am

Hello Hollowscar

The following suggest that Muhammad agreed with lying -


Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle called,: "War is deceit".
Sahih Bukhari 4:52:268, See Also Sahih Bukhari 4:52:269
Narrated Jabir: The Prophet said, "Who is ready to kill Ka'b bin Ashraf (i.e. a Jew)." Muhammad bin Maslama replied, "Do you like me to kill him?" The Prophet replied in the affirmative. Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say what I like." The Prophet replied, "I do (i.e. allow you)."
Sahih Bukhari 4:52:271

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it." Then Muhammad bin Maslama went to Kab and said, "That man (i.e. Muhammad demands Sadaqa (i.e. Zakat) from us, and he has troubled us, and I have come to borrow something from you." On that, Kab said, "By Allah, you will get tired of him!"...
Sahih Bukhari 5:59:369

Narrated Zahdam: We were in the company of Abu Musa Al-Ash'ari and there were friendly relations between us and this tribe of Jarm. Abu Musa was presented with a dish containing chicken. Among the people there was sitting a red-faced man who did not come near the food. Abu Musa said (to him), "Come on (and eat), for I have seen Allah's Apostle eating of it (i.e. chicken)." He said, "I have seen it eating something (dirty) and since then I have disliked it, and have taken an oath that I shall not eat it ' Abu Musa said, "Come on, I will tell you (or narrate to you). Once I went to Allah s Apostle with a group of Al-Ash'ariyin, and met him while he was angry, distributing some camels of Rakat. We asked for mounts but he took an oath that he would not give us any mounts, and added, 'I have nothing to mount you on' In the meantime some camels of booty were brought to Allah's Apostle and he asked twice, 'Where are Al-Ash'ariyin?" So he gave us five white camels with big humps. We stayed for a short while (after we had covered a little distance), and then I said to my companions, "Allah's Apostle has forgotten his oath. By Allah, if we do not remind Allah's Apostle of his oath, we will never be successful." So we returned to the Prophet and said, "O Allah's Apostle! We asked you for mounts, but you took an oath that you would not give us any mounts; we think that you have forgotten your oath.' He said, 'It is Allah Who has given you mounts. By Allah, and Allah willing, if I take an oath and later find something else better than that. then I do what is better and expiate my oath.' "
Sahih Bukhari 7:67:427

Muhammad bin Maslamah said, ‘O Messenger, we shall have to tell lies.' ‘Say what you like,' Muhammad replied. ‘You are absolved, free to say whatever you must.'
Ishaq:365, See Also Tabari VII:94

Hajjaj said to the Apostle, ‘I have money scattered among the Meccan merchants, so give me permission to go and get it.' Having got Muhammad's permission, he said, ‘I must tell lies.' The Apostle said, ‘Tell them.'
Ishaq:519


sum
sum
 
Posts: 4861
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:11 pm
Gender: None specified

Re: Was Prophet Muhammad a liar, and manipulator?

Postby manfred » Sat Jan 16, 2010 1:34 pm

The one that always raises a chuckle is the story when Mohammed was asked why some children look more like their mothers, and others more like their fathers.

He claims to have received a divine revelation telling him that if the man achieves orgasm first, the child will look like him, and if the woman "climaxes" first, the child will look like her.

If that was the only lie he told he probably would be seen as a bit of comedian, but sadly that is not the case.

He has institutionalised lying and deception, and even claims such behaviour is a trait of Allah: Allah is the best of deceivers.

His approach to truth is very simple: what ever is conducive to his (or Allah's) purpose is allowed. The purpose on the action is its justification, that is, in a nutshell, Islamic ethics.

Mohammed was a true master of deception and manipulation, and that is, compbined with a complete absence of conscience, the secret of his personal success.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"
User avatar
manfred
 
Posts: 4904
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm
Gender: Male

Re: Was Prophet Muhammad a liar, and manipulator?

Postby KufirbintKufr » Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:07 am

HollowScar wrote:Now, we believe that he was, but my friend claimed that Prophet Muhammad never lied. After all, when he was young, the angels came, and cleaned his heart, in full witness of the children around? So is there anything (verses or hadiths) to show this?


Here is the story:

Ishaq:72 "Some months after his return to the desert two men in white seized the boy, threw him down and opened up his belly, stirring it up.""Halima said, 'I am afraid that this child has had a stroke, so I want to take him back before the result appears.' She carried him back to Aminah and said, 'I am afraid that ill will befall him, so I have brought him back to you.' She asked what had happened. I said, 'I fear that a demon has possessed him.'""They seized me and opened up my belly, extracted my heart and split it. They extracted a black drop from it and threw it away. They washed my heart and belly with snow until they had cleaned them."

Muslim:B1N311 "Gabriel came to Muhammad while he was playing with his playmates. He took hold of him and lay him prostrate on the ground and tore open his breast and took out the heart. Then he extracted a blood-clot out of it and said: 'That was the part of Satan in you.' And then he washed it with the water of Zamzam in a golden basin and then it was joined together and restored to it place. The boys came running to their mother and said: 'Muhammad has been murdered.' They all rushed toward him. I myself saw the marks of needle on his breast."

So as you see in fact Mohammed's nanny Halima thought he was demon possessed. There is difference in the accounts too- because Muhammed said sth about two people and in the hadith we see Gabriel all of a sudden.

There are witnessess who saw Jesus after His Resurrection too- but muslims ignore it.
Galatians 1:7-8
But there are some who trouble (agitate) you, and they would pervert the good news of Christ.
If we or an angel from heaven should preach to you any message other than that which we preached to you, let him be accursed.
User avatar
KufirbintKufr
 
Posts: 372
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:37 pm
Gender: Female

Re: Was Prophet Muhammad a liar, and manipulator?

Postby yeezevee » Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:48 pm

dear friends., Frankly speaking one should take the story of Muhammad from Muslims and early Muslims WITH A PINCH OF SALT.. The hadth., the Quran and the sunnah these Muslim BUMS get out of hadith is all in confusion.. No Muslim ever tried to put time on those words that came out of Muhammad. The other serious problem is Which words/statements of Muhammad went in to Quran and which words/statements went in to Hadith and why is also questionable, for e.g. Taking the complete life of Muhammad
571: Birth of the Holy Prophet. Year of the Elephant. Invasion of Makkah by Abraha the Viceroy of Yemen, his retreat.
577: The Holy Prophet visits Madina with his mother. Death of his mother.
580: Death of Abdul Muttalib, the grandfather of the Holy Prophet.
583: The Holy Prophet's journey to Syria in the company of his uncle Abu Talib. His meeting with the monk Bahira at Bisra who foretells of his prophethood.
586: The Holy Prophet participates in the war of Fijar.
591: The Holy Prophet becomes an active member of "Hilful Fudul", a league for the relief of the distressed.
594: The Holy Prophet becomes the Manager of the business of Lady Khadija, and leads her trade caravan to Syria and back.
595: The Holy Prophet marries Hadrat Khadija. Seventh century
So we must realize here that any STUPID STORY Muslims tell until the year 594 is nothing more than nonsense and cock bull story. Moreover there is no big deal about that 25 year old Mohammad., no hint of any God/Allaha choosing him as his/her/its messenger.. But many of the so-called Islamic religious bums write so much nonsense about this guy even before that alleged Allah 1st revelation took place in that Hira cave.

Next is his life until he gets that first revelation in the year 610., that is another 15 years after his marriage with that GOOD looking Voluptuous ~40 year old Khadija(RA). There also, we know very little about this tom boy Muhammad
605: The Holy Prophet arbitrates in a dispute among the Quraish about the placing of the Black Stone in the Kaaba.
610: The first revelation in the cave at Mt. Hira. The Holy Prophet is commissioned as the Messenger of God.
that is all what we have about Muhammad until this time. Now he is 40 year old guy and Khadija was 55. Now come his Islam.. His singing in towns and a bit of hadith/ sunnah starts from this time
613: Declaration at Mt. Sara inviting the general public to Islam.

614: Invitation to the Hashimites to accept Islam.
615: Persecution of the Muslims by the Quraish. A party of Muslims leaves for Abyssinia.
616: Second Hijrah to Abysinnia.
617: Social boycott of the Hashimites and the Holy Prophet by the Quraish. The Hashimites are shut up in a glen outside Makkah.
619: Lifting of the boycott. Deaths of Abu Talib and Hadrat Khadija. Year of sorrow.
We must realize until this time Mr. Mohammad and his Islam is nothing but singing songs in caves and on Meccan streets or at the best acting like a local feudal leader trying to prove he is also leader. With all that 20 years or so his silly preaching, HE COULD NOT EVEN PROVE to Meccan town people that he was messenger of Allah and he hardly had couple of 100 fit for nothing buggers as his followers., that too it may be because he spend his wife's money on these bums. His REAL ISLAM started after the death of his first wife Khadija. And allegedly here comes all that deadly hadith and STUPID VERSES in QURAN in these 13 years
620: Journey to Taif. Ascension to the heavens.
621: First pledge at Aqaba.
622: Second pledge at Aqaba. The Holy Prophet and the Muslims migrate to Yathrib.
623: Nakhla expedition.
624: Battle of Badr. Expulsion of the Bani Qainuqa Jews from Madina.
625: Battle of Uhud. Massacre of 70 Muslims at Bir Mauna. Expulsion of Banu Nadir Jews from Madina. Second expedition of Badr.
626: Expedition of Banu Mustaliq.
627: Battle of the Trench. Expulsion of Banu Quraiza Jews.
628: Truce of Hudaibiya. Expedition to Khyber. The Holy Prophet addresses letters to various heads of states.
629: The Holy Prophet performs the pilgrimage at Makkah. Expedition to Muta (Romans).
630: Conquest of Makkah. Battles of Hunsin, Auras, and Taif.
631: Expedition to Tabuk. Year of Deputations.
632: Farewell pilgrimage at Makkah.
632: Death of the Holy Prophet.Election of Hadrat Abu Bakr as the Caliph. Usamah leads expedition to Syria. Battles of Zu Qissa and Abraq. Battles of Buzakha, Zafar and Naqra. Campaigns against Bani Tamim and Musailima, the Liar.
And he dies when he was 62-63 year old guy. , in the last 13 years this fellow Muhammad was nothing but a CRIMINAL CHARACTER in the name of Allah. Before that he was NOT A BAD GUY. How can any one believe he conveyed all that Quran and Hadith during this time?? In 13 years this fellow married 13 women, many of them were half of his age, one was child and other was adopted son's ' wife and you have another 13 concubines + right hand possess from wars + wars with neighboring towns etc..etc.., With all the stuff going on., where the hell this Character Muhammad had time to preach Quran and tell hadith judgments to his followers??

Whole Islam is COCK BULL STORY
and Quran is a copy/pasted words by the writers of Quran 10 or so years after the death of Muhammad. They just used few word of Muhammad along with lot of Plagiarism from Christian/Jewish and Arabian Pagan Scriptures/stories of that time. These hadith stories are mush worse, they run in to the stories told by these STUPID MUSLIMS 100 of years after his death..

So my friends., Muhammad should NOT be blamed for all things that are wrong in Islam. He should only be blamed for HIS CRIMINAL ACTIVITIES not for the stories of STUPID MUSLIMS ..

with best wishes
yeezevee
Last edited by yeezevee on Sun Jan 17, 2010 7:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
yeezevee
 
Posts: 6711
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:17 pm
Gender: None specified

Re: Was Prophet Muhammad a liar, and manipulator?

Postby skynightblaze » Sun Jan 17, 2010 7:08 pm

Yeezevee wrote:The hadth., the Quran and the sunnah these Muslims BUMS get out of hadith is all in confusion


Can you abuse and use foul language? :lol: I guess this must be a miracle!
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.
User avatar
skynightblaze
 
Posts: 3649
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:51 am
Gender: Male

Re: Was Prophet Muhammad a liar, and manipulator?

Postby yeezevee » Sun Jan 17, 2010 7:17 pm

Can you abuse and use foul language? :lol: I guess this must be a miracle!
Nope .. Bum is not a foul language..

No..No. no dear skynightblaze., I don't use FOUL and FILTHY language to Muslims folks., I greatly respect Muslim Women Folk and those Muslims who never read Quran and never read Hadith. THEY ARE INDEED GOOD PEOPLE., And they suffered a lot...

I only Chide Muhammad following educated Muslim bums. May be some times I might throw few insulting words to them such as Fools., Idiots..But never use Foul and filth language


with best regards
yeezevee
yeezevee
 
Posts: 6711
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:17 pm
Gender: None specified

Re: Was Prophet Muhammad a liar, and manipulator?

Postby skynightblaze » Sun Jan 17, 2010 7:33 pm

yeezevee wrote:
Can you abuse and use foul language? :lol: I guess this must be a miracle!
Nope .. Bum is not a foul language..

No..No. no dear skynightblaze., I don't use FOUL and FILTHY language to Muslims folks., I greatly respect Muslim Women Folk and those Muslims who never read Quran and never read Hadith. THEY ARE INDEED GOOD PEOPLE., And they suffered a lot...

I only Chide Muhammad following educated Muslim bums. May be some times I might throw few insulting words to them such as Fools., Idiots..But never use Foul and filth language


with best regards
yeezevee


Your good friend Ahmed's bum has been swollen as I have shoved too many rods up his bum than he can handle! Please take care of him :lol:
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.
User avatar
skynightblaze
 
Posts: 3649
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:51 am
Gender: Male

Re: Was Prophet Muhammad a liar, and manipulator?

Postby yeezevee » Sun Jan 17, 2010 7:43 pm

Your good friend Ahmed's bum has been swollen as I have shoved....
Oh.. I see, Now I understand why you think "Bum" is a foul language. You guys wrestle in foul language ..

No no. no., in my world bum means " A slang used for a homeless person, a Jobless person, or a beggar, or a "forgotten man." Or a man who doesn't work but collect check from State " I didn't mean "BUTT" or swollen butt..

and by the way, My good friend Ahmed is NOT BUM., he is very hard working guy with a well paid job. I am only sorry for him that he doesn't understand Muhammad's Islam and he thinks that i don't UNDERSTAND Muhammad's Islam. Off course he has the right to think that way and explain the world his version of Islam.

with best
yeezevee
yeezevee
 
Posts: 6711
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:17 pm
Gender: None specified

Re: Was Prophet Muhammad a liar, and manipulator?

Postby manfred » Sun Jan 17, 2010 7:57 pm

dear yeezevee,

of course you are right; due to extensive myth-building around the person of Mohammed it can be very difficult to get glimpses of the real person. Nonetheless, there are there.

It is also true that not all of the mess that Islam turned out to be is Mohammed's fault, but he certainly had a fair share in that.

You said he started off as a fairly ordinary person, neither particularly bad nor good. His early childhood was traumatic and already there were signs that not all was well with Mohammed.

Still, if we want to find the point in his life when his decline into depravity started, that is quite obvious: His first encounter with "Jibril". Whatever it was that he thought he experienced it changed his life, and for the worse.

Why did his wife encourage him instead of taking some sense into him? We cannot read her mind, but a theory that explains the events well is that Khadija thought she could use Mohammed's Jibril episode to some advantage. A "real" prophet should rightfully have control over the pilgrimage centre at Mecca, and the status and income that would bring.

However, the Meccans were not so easily convinced, and their rejection of Mohammed ultimately led to Mohammed's exit to Medina. This traumatised him, and instilled in him a hatred for Jews, in particular, and also a number of individuals in Mecca . That, combined with the immediate need for cash, resulted in Mohammed being able to rationalise completely unjust raids on caravans. Done once, it is easy to do so again. The mental bridge was there to circumvent his sense of ethics. The slippery slope was well on the way by now. Realising that his new, ruthless approach would bring him success, wealth and women, he convinced himself more and more that he must be right. If he had any self-doubts before, by now they had gone. Mohammed had become a law to himself. It was at this time that he gave himself privileges over other Muslims (the 20% rule, and the number of wives, for example). In true fashion, as “all power corrupts” Mohammed became ever more ambitious, and ever more able to dispense with his own conscience. Bit by bit, he turned himself into the monster that became “victorious in terror”. Even the wife he care for most, if that is the word, Aisha, was scared of him: after he died the only thought she had was not of grief but of convincing the other Muslims that she had not hand in his death.

So, Mohammed is indeed a warning to all of us, in that Muslims are right entirely: His life story tells us of presumption, and the road to utter corruption, in daily steps. Mohammed’s warning is this: Beware of the decisions you make in your life, even the apparently small ones. Lots of small decisions lead to big decisions without realisation. Listen to your conscience, beware of rationalisations. Do not allow your life to be run by hate and greed. Examine your motives in making decisions. If you don’t you could end up like Mohammed too.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"
User avatar
manfred
 
Posts: 4904
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm
Gender: Male

Re: Was Prophet Muhammad a liar, and manipulator?

Postby yeezevee » Sun Jan 17, 2010 8:38 pm

dear manfred I agree with most of your comments except this
..Why did his wife encourage him instead of taking some sense into him? We cannot read her mind, but a theory that explains the events well is that Khadija thought she could use Mohammed's Jibril episode to some advantage. A "real" prophet should rightfully have control over the pilgrimage centre at Mecca, and the status and income that would bring.....
Answer for that question is simple. She was an old lady, She married that guy for 15 years and she clearly loved him, had children with him., And if such husband goes NUTS and talks crazy around the town. Clearly being a wife and having a respectable position in the town Any women of that time will support such guys. More over we must realize Mr. Muhammad never did ANY CRIMINAL ACTIVITIES as long as she was alive. He might have had some discourses with his followers or discussions with the town people who didn't believe him But never crossed the line. So how can we blame her??

The next is that theory you pointed out
but a theory that explains the events well is that Khadija thought she could use Mohammed's Jibril episode to some advantage.
I am not very certain about that and there is ABSOLUTELY no proof of that., More importantly what advantage she gets by making this guy as Prophet or what Advantage did she get in those first 10 years when he was a Prophet? In fact she probably lost her wealth as this guy was feeding these BUMS who were singing songs along him on the Meccan roads..

with best regards
yeezevee
yeezevee
 
Posts: 6711
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:17 pm
Gender: None specified

Re: Was Prophet Muhammad a liar, and manipulator?

Postby manfred » Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:44 pm

Dear yeezevee,
When I wrote that, I was thinking about these sources, so I looked them up… they paint Khadija as a loving wife, but also a quite ambitious and clever woman, and the sources suggest than perhaps my idea is not really that far fetched at all…

Tabari VI:70 "He went to Khadija and said, 'I think that I have gone mad.' 'No, by Allah.' she said. 'Your Lord would never do that to you. You have never committed a wicked act.' Khadija went to Waraqa and told him what had happened. He said, 'If what you have said is true, your husband is a prophet.... After this Gabriel did not come to him for a while and Khadija said, 'I think that your Lord must hate you.'"


Waraqa was a Christian, a distant relative of Khadija . Note that Khadija went to see him WITHOUT Mohammed, according to this source, and that he died shortly after the conversation with Khadija, within hours, in fact, so soon that nobody had a chance to check if Khadija’s word were in fact accurate. So we are told that it was Khadija who came up with the whole prophet idea in the first place, possibly after talking to her relative, but we only have her word for that.

Then we have this:

Tabari VI:73/Ishaq:107 "'Cousin, can you tell me when this visitor comes to you.' Muhammad replied, 'Yes.' She said, 'Tell me then, when he comes.' Gabriel came to him as before, and Muhammad said, 'Here is Gabriel who has just come to me.' She said, 'Yes? Come, cousin, and sit by my left thigh.' He came, and she said, 'Can you see him.' 'Yes.' 'Move around and sit by my right thigh.' He did so and she said, 'Can you see him.' 'Yes.' She said, 'Sit in my lap.' He did so, and she said, 'Can you see him.' He replied, 'Yes.' She was grieved, and flung off her veil and disclosed her body while the Apostle was sitting in her lap." Alternate one says, "Khadija put the Messenger inside her shift next to her body." Alternate two proclaims: "I heard that she made the Apostle come inside her shift." Both end with: "Then she said, 'Can you see him.' 'No.' At that she said, 'Rejoice cousin. By Allah, this spirit is an angel and not Satan.'"


The implication is that the mystery spirit was an angel, not a devil, because he was too modest to look upon an old woman’s body. Clearly she cared a lot for Mohammed, even loved him, but why did she encourage him in his delusions? Why did she not try to do what you and I would do if a good friend starts behaving like Mohammed? Reason with him, get some help? Make him see sense?

Muhammad believed he had been possessed by a demon or gone mad. He was scared to death. His wife essentially converted him to Islam, using the conveniently dead Waraqa’s credibility. She said to Mohammed: "No, never. It can't be. Be happy. I swear by Allah that He shall never humiliate you. Truly, I hope you will be the Prophet of this people. Allah will not bring you to shame."

The caravan business Khadija owned owed its prosperity to Allah’s recently restored pagan rock shrine. It stood not more than a hundred meters from where the conversation above took place. Mecca provided one of the few wells, shallow as it was, for caravans moving goods from the ports of Yemen to Syria. While that was good, no one becomes rich caring for folks passing through town. So the Ka'aba became Mecca's meal ticket. Muhammad’s great, great, great grandfather, Qusayy, had gained control over the idol temple and organized an annual pilgrimage to the shrine. He collected a tax from every Arab attendee. While a religious tax was a profitable idea, and one that made its way into Islam, the series of economic fairs Qusayy arranged surrounding the hajj proved to be his most capitalistic venture. To be the top dog in Mecca, you needed control of the Ka’aba.

Now look at this:
Ishaq:155 "Khadija was the first to believe in Allah and His Apostle. By her Allah lightened the burden on His Prophet. He never met with contradiction and charges of falsehood but he was comforted by her when he went home. She strengthened him and belittled the opposition."


Tabari VI:82 "During the Jahiliyyah I came to Mecca and stayed with Abbas bin Muttalib. The sun rose while I was looking at the Ka'aba. A young man [Muhammad] came up and gazed at the sky. He turned to face the Ka'aba. Soon after, a woman [Khadija] and a youth [Ali] came and stood behind him. The young man bowed and the woman and youth bowed; then the man stood erect, followed by the woman and youth. The young man prostrated himself, and they did the same. Abbas asked, 'Do you know what this is?' 'No.' I answered. 'This is Khadija, my nephew's wife. He has told me that his Lord has commanded them to do what you see them doing. Allah’s oath, I do not know anyone on the face of the earth but these three who follow this religion.' I asked Abbas, 'What is this religion.' He answered, 'This is Muhammad bin Abdallah, who claims that Allah has sent him as His Messenger with this religion and that the treasures of Chusroes and Caesar will be given to him by conquest.'"


Here we have it spelled out: Islam is about the “treasures of Chusroes and Caesar”. Now, who is more likely to come up with that idea, Khadija the hard-nosed business woman with a soft spot for her young troubled husband or frightened Mohammed who wanted for nothing while his wife took care of him? Islam is about riches for Mohammed and by extension, Khadija, and the most riches to be had in Mecca are in the ownership of the Ka’aba. Mohammed eventually got his desire and controlled it, but Khadija did not live to see it. I am not sure if she would have approved of the manner by which it ended up with Mohammed, but that we will never know.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"
User avatar
manfred
 
Posts: 4904
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm
Gender: Male

Re: Was Prophet Muhammad a liar, and manipulator?

Postby yeezevee » Sun Jan 17, 2010 11:53 pm

dear manfred., I have to be very careful about this ibn Ishaq and Abu Jafar Al-Tabari .. Both of them have written whatever they wrote 100s of years after death of Muhammad
Tabari VI:70 "He went to Khadija and said, 'I think that I have gone mad.' 'No, by Allah.' she said. 'Your Lord would never do that to you. You have never committed a wicked act.' Khadija went to Waraqa and told him what had happened. He said, 'If what you have said is true, your husband is a prophet.... After this Gabriel did not come to him for a while and Khadija said, 'I think that your Lord must hate you.'"

Tabari VI:73/Ishaq:107 "'Cousin, can you tell me when this visitor comes to you.' Muhammad replied, 'Yes.' She said, 'Tell me then, when he comes.' Gabriel came to him as before, and Muhammad said, 'Here is Gabriel who has just come to me.' She said, 'Yes? Come, cousin, and sit by my left thigh.' He came, and she said, 'Can you see him.' 'Yes.' 'Move around and sit by my right thigh.' He did so and she said, 'Can you see him.' 'Yes.' She said, 'Sit in my lap.' He did so, and she said, 'Can you see him.' He replied, 'Yes.' She was grieved, and flung off her veil and disclosed her body while the Apostle was sitting in her lap." Alternate one says, "Khadija put the Messenger inside her shift next to her body." Alternate two proclaims: "I heard that she made the Apostle come inside her shift." Both end with: "Then she said, 'Can you see him.' 'No.' At that she said, 'Rejoice cousin. By Allah, this spirit is an angel and not Satan.'"


Ishaq:155 "Khadija was the first to believe in Allah and His Apostle. By her Allah lightened the burden on His Prophet. He never met with contradiction and charges of falsehood but he was comforted by her when he went home. She strengthened him and belittled the opposition."


Tabari VI:82 "During the Jahiliyyah I came to Mecca and stayed with Abbas bin Muttalib. The sun rose while I was looking at the Ka'aba. A young man [Muhammad] came up and gazed at the sky. He turned to face the Ka'aba. Soon after, a woman [Khadija] and a youth [Ali] came and stood behind him. The young man bowed and the woman and youth bowed; then the man stood erect, followed by the woman and youth. The young man prostrated himself, and they did the same. Abbas asked, 'Do you know what this is?' 'No.' I answered. 'This is Khadija, my nephew's wife. He has told me that his Lord has commanded them to do what you see them doing. Allah’s oath, I do not know anyone on the face of the earth but these three who follow this religion.' I asked Abbas, 'What is this religion.' He answered, 'This is Muhammad bin Abdallah, who claims that Allah has sent him as His Messenger with this religion and that the treasures of Chusroes and Caesar will be given to him by conquest.'"
what all we have here is .. He says ..she says stuff., The only important that seems to highlight in that is this
Tabari VI:70 "He went to Khadija and said, 'I think that I have gone mad.' 'No, by Allah.' she said. 'Your Lord would never do that to you...
This apparently was the first time after that first ayah was revealed in that hira cave Mr. Muhammad saw his wife with fever... What it tells me is.. This "ALLAH" was indeed a God to Pagans of Arabia before Islam was invented by Muhammad., rest of it one can easily question what ibn Ishaq, Al-Tabari wrote about Muhammad.. So it is hard for me to judge the CRIMINAL intent of Khadija from ibn Ishaq and Al-Tabari.

Even if she had criminal intention of making her husband as messenger to make him a leader for the pagan Arabs of that time or to make some business for profit, I can not blame her as they made nothing by making this guy a messenger of Allah because there is not much evidence that he made anything .. Not even couple of 100 people followed him all the way until her death and he migrated to Madina..

with best regards
yeezevee
yeezevee
 
Posts: 6711
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:17 pm
Gender: None specified

Re: Was Prophet Muhammad a liar, and manipulator?

Postby KufirbintKufr » Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:49 am

KufirbintKufr wrote:
HollowScar wrote:Now, we believe that he was, but my friend claimed that Prophet Muhammad never lied. After all, when he was young, the angels came, and cleaned his heart, in full witness of the children around? So is there anything (verses or hadiths) to show this?



Muslim:B1N311"Gabriel came to Muhammad while he was playing with his playmates. He took hold of him and lay him prostrate on the ground and tore open his breast and took out the heart. Then he extracted a blood-clot out of it and said: 'That was the part of Satan in you.' And then he washed it with the water of Zamzam in a golden basin and then it was joined together and restored to it place. The boys came running to their mother and said: 'Muhammad has been murdered.' They all rushed toward him. I myself saw the marks of needle on his breast."

I found another hadith...

It appears that Mohammed was purified two times- once as a boy and the second time before the nocturnal journey:

Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 429:

Narrated Malik bin Sasaa:

The Prophet said, "While I was at the House in a state midway between sleep and wakefulness, (an angel recognized me) as the man lying between two men. A golden tray full of wisdom and belief was brought to me and my body was cut open from the throat to the lower part of the abdomen and then my abdomen was washed with Zam-zam water and (my heart was) filled with wisdom and belief. Al-Buraq, a white animal, smaller than a mule and bigger than a donkey was brought to me and I set out with Gabriel. (..)

Yet he was still sinful:

Pickthal 48:1-2: Lo! We have given thee (O Muhammad) a signal victory,
That Allah may forgive thee of thy sin that which is past and that which is to come, and may perfect His favour unto thee, and may guide thee on a right path,
Galatians 1:7-8
But there are some who trouble (agitate) you, and they would pervert the good news of Christ.
If we or an angel from heaven should preach to you any message other than that which we preached to you, let him be accursed.
User avatar
KufirbintKufr
 
Posts: 372
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:37 pm
Gender: Female

Re: Was Prophet Muhammad a liar, and manipulator?

Postby HollowScar » Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:06 am

Thank you guys. It is a shame that we can take these and show muslims, and yet they choose to refuse. They choose to be limited by Islam, and refer to scholars, who clearly do not feel much like debating.
"Do you remember what you told me once? That every passing minute is a another chance to turn it all around" - Vanilla Sky
"If I could just go back... if I could rub everything out... starting with myself" - The Talented Mr. Ripley
User avatar
HollowScar
 
Posts: 502
Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2009 9:06 am
Gender: Male

Re: Was Prophet Muhammad a liar, and manipulator?

Postby KufirbintKufr » Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:08 pm

HollowScar wrote:Thank you guys. It is a shame that we can take these and show muslims, and yet they choose to refuse. They choose to be limited by Islam, and refer to scholars, who clearly do not feel much like debating.


But unfortunately they do exactly what Mohammed did. Did he ever debated his opponents ?

Tabari VIII:76 "Urwah went to the Prophet. 'Muhammad, tell me, if you exterminate your tribesmen - have you ever heard of any of the Arabs who has destroyed his own race before you?'Muhammad, you have collected a mixed group of people and brought them to your kin to destroy them. By Allah, I see both prominent people and rabble who are likely to flee, deserting you tomorrow.

His doubts were cleared by the future Righteus Caliph Abu Bakar

' Now Abu Bakr who was standing behind the Apostle, said, 'Go suck the clitoris of Al-Lat!'"
Galatians 1:7-8
But there are some who trouble (agitate) you, and they would pervert the good news of Christ.
If we or an angel from heaven should preach to you any message other than that which we preached to you, let him be accursed.
User avatar
KufirbintKufr
 
Posts: 372
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:37 pm
Gender: Female

Next

Return to Muhammad

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 3 guests

Who is online

In total there are 4 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 3 guests (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 150 on Thu Sep 11, 2014 11:52 pm

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 3 guests

Info

The team
Delete all board cookies
• All times are UTC [ DST ]