PRESIDENT TRUMP

Discuss world politics in relation to Islam and Muslims.
idesigner1
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Re: PRESIDENT TRUMP

Post by idesigner1 »

I watched one interview of Trump supporters who were living near the island near coast. They vehemently denied any climate change although half of island was submerged.They believe whole thing is Chinese propaganda.

Most of them believe Obama was born in Kenya. Coal is cleanest fuel. Evolution science is a conspiracy.

Many believed in Jew conspiracies and 9/11 was inside job But now they are very polite and keep their true feeling unde4 wrap. :clueless:

Still I believe Trump has many good ideas but guy is not focused.

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manfred
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Re: PRESIDENT TRUMP

Post by manfred »

The thing about Climate change is often presented in odd ways. Absolutely, the climate is changing. It has always done, ever since there was an earth. We can do next to nothing to influence or change that, at least not on a global level.

However, there is very little reliable evidence that human activity has changed the climate significantly. On a local level, sure, we polluted cities and cause desertification by cutting down trees. On a global level, I am not convinced. I have not seen any evidence from a laboratory that carbondioxite is a "greenhouse gas"... Why can't we simply fill two bottles with air, but one with some added CO2, shine a lamp on it and see which gets hotter? In fact you can find quite a few well qualified scientists who say it is all a trick.

I think this "greenhouse gas" thing is to a large extent a plot for governments to tax people for spurious reasons and for having "conferences" to justify big government.

I cannot say if sea levels are really rising or if in some places land is sinking. However given that Cleopatra's palace is today under water suggests, the sea levels are indeed slowly changing, but it has nothing at all to do with the exhaust fumes of my car, as the palace has been already under water since long before I was born.

Certainly, paying a "carbon footprint" which is then spent on conferences with champaign and caviare is not stopping any changes.
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Garudaman
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Re: PRESIDENT TRUMP

Post by Garudaman »

I still remember the two cities which there're coolness when I was a kid, now there're no coolness in those both cities due to there're less trees, so there's no need reliable lab test by reliable scientists, as the function of trees is to absorb CO2.

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manfred
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Re: PRESIDENT TRUMP

Post by manfred »

Garudaman, if you ever go to Spain, but properly, not the coastal tourist areas, you can see the same phenomenon: There are very few ordinary trees in much of the Spanish countryside, and the result is that in the summer it can get ridiculously hot, hotter than Indonesia, but in the winter it is quite cool. If you compare that with neighbouring Portugal there is quite a big difference: Portugal is much greener, does not get the really bad heat in the summer, and gets more rain. Lisbon in Portugal may get to about 30 degrees or so, Seville is only 5 hours drive away in the car, about the distance Jakarta to Semarang, but can get to 45 or so quite often in the summer.

The reason is that in the 16th century the Spanish king ordered a large fleet of ships to be build from wood, and almost all trees were cut down. This resulted in the good soil to be washed away by the rain, and no new trees could grow. So today Spain is much more like a desert country than it once was. In Portugal not many trees were cut down an it looks much more like Spain used to look 400 years ago, and you can grow many more varieties of crops there.

So yes, we can influence our environment and local climate, but not really the whole planet.
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idesigner1
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Re: PRESIDENT TRUMP

Post by idesigner1 »

Dear Manfred I will reply about climate change in brief.

The experiment you mentioned was done by producing CO2 in a flak. Yes CO2 increased temperature. Do some search and you can find about this experiment. I will search and send you.


There is no doubt that increase level of CO2 in atmosphere is due to fossil fuel burning of past 150 years. How that can be proved ? CO2 isotopes can differentiate between 1. CO2 produced by breathing of animals 2. CO2 contributed by volcanic activity 3. CO2 by burning woods, petroleum products, coa . Most of the CO2 is from 3 source. The carbon present can also be age dated.

Numerous submerged island all over the world, submerged coast lines, numerous retreating glaciers is proof.I live in Canada and in high Rockies have seen Now remnant of glaciers. They were there when I first visited in early 70s.In arctic many passages are now open to pass whole Arctic Ocean.

Yes many government charges tax payers in name of global warming. But warming is a fact of life. Can we reverse it? May be.

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manfred
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Re: PRESIDENT TRUMP

Post by manfred »

Hi Idesigner, I have read this thing:

http://www.iloveco2.com/2009/01/top-15- ... myths.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I have no problems seeing that perhaps we have an increase in CO2 levels since the age of industrialisation, but I need to be convinced that CO2 actually acts like a "greenhouse gas" in any significant way. I also readily accept that climate is changing, as it always has done. But I am not sure the two things are in anyway cause and effect.

As to sinking coastlines or islands, well I mentioned Cleopatra's palace which you can visit today only with scuba gear... it sunk long before there was the first steam engine or car...

I can only go by what I read, as I am not an expert in that area.

http://principia-scientific.org/study-c ... te-change/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://principia-scientific.org/no-warm ... as-effect/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Centaur
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Re: PRESIDENT TRUMP

Post by Centaur »

Click to win $50,0000 :rock:

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Hombre
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Re: PRESIDENT TRUMP

Post by Hombre »

manfred, I am afraid ldesigner thesis about climate change makes lot more sense.

Up & until industrial revolution, generation of CO2 (mainly from living species) more less was balanced by plants absorbing the CO2 and emitting Oxygen into the air.

That is not the case, since industrial revolution. With coal burning & steam as main energy source to power machines. We generate far more CO2 then nature can dispense of. Result of which, excess gas gets "stuck in upper atmosphere which acts like impervious roof.

The result is, hot rays from sun cause rise in air & sea water wormer temperatures - ever increasing magnitude & frequencies of hurricanes & cyclones

Granted, that excess CO2 also caused more green plants which does absorb the co2 - but not fast enough to stabilize the climate change

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manfred
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Re: PRESIDENT TRUMP

Post by manfred »

Co2 I understand is heavier than air. A balloon filled with the stuff falls to the ground if released. So how does it end up stuck in the upper atmosphere? When CO2 is released from a volcanic source or from decaying vegetation on a lake bed it hugs the ground and sometimes causes death traps for animals. And it's like a impervious roof? How do we get satellites into orbit then?

While there is, as I understand it, some evidence that the earth is very slowly getting warmer, which is disputed by others, the earth has gone through cycles of warming and cooling since it existed. Doggerland is a very good example for that.

When we breathe, we also produce carbon dioxide.Why is some CO2 "dangerous" and taxable, but other is not?

There ware quite a few reports that all this global warming stuff is a hoax to raise money for scientists and for governments to tax people.

Have a look at this report...

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/02/17/murray- ... -hoax.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
or this one
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/colu ... ation.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
or this one
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/1136 ... rming.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
As I said, this is not my area, so I would welcome a convincing argument with sources showing me there is more to it that I think.

The last source has these two graphs:
The first one is a graph showing temperature changes, published by the Goddard Institute:

Image

This, however, has been "adjusted" to show what they climate lobby wants to show...

Using the unadjusted data, we get this:

Image

Notice also that the graph uses a scale for temperature that does not start at zero, thereby exaggerating the changes dramatically.The second has been produced leaving everything the same, except using the actually data, and not any "adjustments".
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glitch
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Re: PRESIDENT TRUMP

Post by glitch »

Hombre wrote:
glitch wrote:Again, anyone who voted for trump is stupid. no other reason. We just dumb. How fair as usual.
Well, most of those whites who voted for Trump & now worship him are the blue collar workers, who lost heir jobs, and now blame others for their lack of skill to find new higher paying jobs.

There is no question that - either, they have no Medical Insurance - or if they do have, it is through Medicaid program mandated by ACA. Trump & GOP wish to eliminate these program - clearly warned by CBO that 25M of them will have no Insurance. Yet! these people cheer him - even when he tells them he wants to take that away from them.

Few low income people did Trump insidious plan for them, DID raise hell to their Congressional representatives, against repeal of ObamaCare - other stupid duds like that black guy behind him with cardboard "Blacks for Trump" & other whites do cheer him.

wow, i have never seen such a american educated isreali. you must spend hours at a time learning about america... funny how Obama never did anyrhing wrong,,, how he forced the ACA down people's throats then you know, he gets no blame for it now working well.

Obama shoved the Iran deal through, because he just knows, and Hombre the isreali, gets on this board and bashes trump 24/7 with his also wile Mueller accusations.

idesigner1
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Re: PRESIDENT TRUMP

Post by idesigner1 »

Hombre wrote:manfred, I am afraid ldesigner thesis about climate change makes lot more sense.

Up & until industrial revolution, generation of CO2 (mainly from living species) more less was balanced by plants absorbing the CO2 and emitting Oxygen into the air.

That is not the case, since industrial revolution. With coal burning & steam as main energy source to power machines. We generate far more CO2 then nature can dispense of. Result of which, excess gas gets "stuck in upper atmosphere which acts like impervious roof.

The result is, hot rays from sun cause rise in air & sea water wormer temperatures - ever increasing magnitude & frequencies of hurricanes & cyclones

Granted, that excess CO2 also caused more green plants which does absorb the co2 - but not fast enough to stabilize the climate change
The CO2 data was checked and rechecked by examining ice cores all over arctic and Antarctic. The ice at Antarctic has pereserved the record since last interglacial event. This can give us age dating as well as isotope data. CO2 has increased after industrial revolution. Some argue that CO2 in air is less than .6 etc and doesn't matter but try to breathe air with bit increased CO 2 and see what happens. There was one geologists, a republican history of working for oil industry studied isotope data with open mind and talked about it on PBS. Ofcourse FOX won't give him air time! Believe it or not, build more refineries in Gulf states, we dumb Canucks want to do that instead of advocating refineries in Iowa or Alberta! It's like convincing people who doubts moon landing! Fools die hard!! :drool:

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manfred
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Re: PRESIDENT TRUMP

Post by manfred »

I am not sure that I made myself understood properly. Sure, there is some evidence that CO2 has increased somewhat since the Industrial revolution, but the link of that to a supposed global warming is tenuous. Have a look at "climategate" you will find it is not merely some crackpots who have doubts about global warming and about CO2 being the cause.

As to breathing air with a light increase of CO2, it has little effect on you. If you go through a forest during daytime, you will breathe such a slight increase. However, a very LARGE increase can kill you, such as a cloud of co2 over a valley or lake.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

idesigner1
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Re: PRESIDENT TRUMP

Post by idesigner1 »

Manfred humans has some tolerance limit of CO2 mixed with air. Even reduced CO2 or high level of oxygen also creates problem. Pure oxygen nitrogen mix can create its own metabolism problems. Ofcourse it won't kill humans.

Beside high CO2 the particulate matter with microscopic sulphur, carbon, aerosol which is usually associated with CO2 production poses health hazards. When you remove or recycle CO2 from air, particulate matter is also removed. The particulate matters make breathing difficult and reduces sun light. Right now in Alberta we suffer from haze and particle matter in atmosphere because of forest fires.In short term , day time temperature rises as heat is retained because of smog cover. Ofcourse we won't have nuclear winter as soon sun will shine !!

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Hombre
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Re: PRESIDENT TRUMP

Post by Hombre »

manfred,
I am quit surprised you don't believe in global warming, due to increased industrial pollutants emitted from coal burning & other fossil fuel.

The thing with science today is - each paper generated by a scientist, it goes through rigorous review by his peer from around the world. One major factor, is ability to repeat the experiment spelled out in original scientist paper. It is only when result are same & verified by other scientists - then the paper is considered credible.

98% of pertinent scientists do agree that, man activities has affected change in climate, and we need to act before is too late to stop the slide into obese.

Frankly, I don't think we should ignore these warning until it is too late to tell pundits "you see! we told you".

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manfred
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Re: PRESIDENT TRUMP

Post by manfred »

Without Co2 in the atmosphere all plant life would die. Co2 levels in the the air has changed throughout the ages, and it is true that generally (but not always) higher Co2 coincided with warmer climate. But when things happen at the same times that does not prove that one thing CAUSES another. Every midday the old clock in the hall chimes 12 times. Does the clock cause midday to come? Is the sun listening to my clock to work out when it needs to start descending?

You could also argue that colder climate means organic metabolism is reduced, and that explains a drop in Co2 levels.

And about the problems in Alberta, they would be mostly caused by the industrial processes around, the forest fires, and an abundance of diesel cars and lorries, specifically. It is a local issue that can be addressed by making laws to reduce pollution locally. In London we have such laws. As from October this year, if you want to drive a diesel vehicle or an older petrol one, which does not meet emission standards, you have to pay £10 for each day you want to drive in the centre of town. Singapore has some too: there is it illegal to drive a car over a certain age.

Global warming is a different story to local pollution problems.

As to scientists, perhaps sometimes people have too much faith in them.... I have shown you how a supposedly reputable research establishment falsified data. T the end of the day, scientists need grants, and politicians need reason to relieve people of their money, so the global warming thing seems to help both groups perfectly.

And when some respectable scientists suggest there are problems with the global warming thing, somehow they end up loosing their jobs and grants. So as far as I am concerned , I am not convinced but this theory, but I am open for evidence. Fake graphs really do not help, not at all.
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Fernando
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Re: PRESIDENT TRUMP

Post by Fernando »

I'm sorry Manfred, I'll have to join with idesigner and Hombre in disagreeing with you. The point about greenhouse gases is that sunlight comes in at a shorter wavelength and can penetrate carbon dioxide more easily than can the longer wavelength energy coming from the warmed surface of the earth. Much the same happens with the glass in an actual greenhouse.
The BBC describes the effect nicely here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesi ... rev1.shtml
I'm not sure I can agree with Hombre about CO2 being trapped in the upper atmosphere though: gases don't layer significantly if there's any movement. Maybe Hombre is thinking about the Ozone layer, where it's largely a question of where the Ozone is formed by UV light and destroyed by CFCs.
The whole issue is very difficult to disentangle though: I wish I could find an unbiased article weighing up the evidence on natural warming cycles and possible distortions of temperature measurements. Then the economics and politics are another matter altogether. It's been argued that burning wood pellets just causes American deforestation and the promised replanting will never happen. Likewise that CO2 savings in the UK are a drop in the ocean and just reduce competitiveness with less concerned countries - an expensive show of conscience.
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah

idesigner1
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Re: PRESIDENT TRUMP

Post by idesigner1 »

manfred wrote:Without Co2 in the atmosphere all plant life would die. Co2 levels in the the air has changed throughout the ages, and it is true that generally (but not always) higher Co2 coincided with warmer climate. But when things happen at the same times that does not prove that one thing CAUSES another. Every midday the old clock in the hall chimes 12 times. Does the clock cause midday to come? Is the sun listening to my clock to work out when it needs to start descending?

You could also argue that colder climate means organic metabolism is reduced, and that explains a drop in Co2 levels.

And about the problems in Alberta, they would be mostly caused by the industrialh processes around, the forest fires, and an abundance of diesel cars and lorries, specifically. It is a local issue that can be addressed by making laws to reduce pollution locally. In London we have such laws. As from October this year, if you want to drive a diesel vehicle or an older petrol one, which does not meet emission standards, you have to pay £10 for each day you want to drive in the centre of town. Singapore has some too: there is it illegal to drive a car over a certain age.

Global warming is a different story to local pollution problems.


As to scientists, perhaps sometimes people have too much faith in them.... I have shown you how a supposedly reputable research establishment falsified data. T the end of the day, scientists need grants, and politicians need reason to relieve people of their money, so the global warming thing seems to help both groups perfectly.

And when some respectable scientists suggest there are problems with the global warming thing, somehow they end up loosing their jobs and grants. So as far as I am concerned , I am not convinced but this theory, but I am open for evidence. Fake graphs really do not help, not at all.
We are talking about reducing fossil fuel burning CO2 . It can never become zero as there will be some fossil fuel burningThis won't reduce other CO2 which comes mainly from biosphere activities from plant and animals. There is other source for CO2 which comes from active volcanoes of planet earth. This will continue in same amount for million of years. This also will stop once planet earth becomes cold, no volcanoes. This can happen in some 100 million years !! Earth core will remain hot for quite a while! ! But ultimately this planet can become like mars with cold core. No CO2 from volcanoes !! no magnetic field planet as inactive as dead animal!! Still comets and meteors may bring some gases!

Now let's worry about oxygen balance. This is mainly generated by photosynthesis activity of marine microscopic planktons. Land plants contribute lot less as we have 1/4 land only but contribution is very vital.This is all figured out by isotope analysis and rough estimate of tree population, land area, Sea covering the earth as well as population of planktons, seasonal variation etc.

High amount of dissolved CO2 in ocean can kill these plan which can further increases CO2. This may cause CaCo3 parts of marine organisms to dissolve. Not good scenario. In Jurassic the planet had high O2 and less CO2.Reptiles and marine life did ok, it helped dinosaurs to roam earth. There were small mammals and big birds.Jurassic atmosphere composition was revealed by studying trapped air in laquar or plant resins found in some rock formations of Jurassic age. It was a land mark study which I was fortunate to study in my advanced geology course.

About the forest fire my point was how bad particle matters and smog can effect the atmosphere. Air quality is ok here when there are no forest fires. Right now many faces breathing problem. I took a hike in mountain and got tired in few hours but managed.

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manfred
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Re: PRESIDENT TRUMP

Post by manfred »

Fernando, you are quoting from "bitesize", the same school-linked and government funded website that teaches how Islam is a religion of peace and that anyone suggesting we should leave the EU is "right wing"....

Schools (and organisations linked to the government funded education system) do not simply provide factual knowledge or education, and it is naive to think that is what they are for. Government funded education is about producing compliant future citizens who trust in their government and willingly fund whatever they decide to do, and to educate people just enough to be compliant workers. The "National Curriculum" is only about testing skills, and not about critical thinking. Alongside with a predeifined, one fits all set of "skills", they push "multiculturalism" into the very young minds of kids, alongside that they need the government to protect them from the evils of Carbondioxite...kids are conditioned so that as adults they willingly pay for their "carbon footprint" (in effect a tax on breathing)....

Man-made global climate change as a theory as been ever more loudly disputed in recent years, including by leading scientists themselves, and we should be careful about accepting it as if it was some kind of religious dogma....
Here are two links discussing the issue
https://www.firstthings.com/article/201 ... ouse-gases
http://www.americantraditions.org/Artic ... arming.htm

Also, I mentioned the two bottle experiment before. If I fill one bottle with air and another with a small addition of Co2, shine a light on them for 2 hours or so, will the one with the Co2 warmer? The answer is no.

As to global warming, the global climate is very similar to how it was in the middle ages, so I am not convinced....
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Fernando
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Re: PRESIDENT TRUMP

Post by Fernando »

manfred wrote:Fernando, you are quoting from "bitesize", the same school-linked and government funded website that teaches how Islam is a religion of peace and that anyone suggesting we should leave the EU is "right wing"....
Sorry Manfred, I've no wish to pose as a government puppet! I simply chose the BBC article because it was clear and near the top of Google's list! Chose it, that is, as an explanation of the greenhouse effect - not as an argument for global warming or any particular cause of it.
As I said, a lot remains entangled and disentangling isn't helped by political fighting over what is essentially a scientific question and the problems coming from the involvement of economics and political descision-making. Which latter is rarely over-burdened by facts.
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah

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Hombre
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Re: PRESIDENT TRUMP

Post by Hombre »

Here is how Encyclopedia Britannica (Still more reliable source then wikipedia) explains the Greenhouse Effect. Hope it clarifies the fact human activities do have effect on global warming

https://www.britannica.com/science/greenhouse-effect" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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