Muhammad (saw) and His Marriage with Aisha (ra)

[manfred]

: Even when you repeat yourself, you still admit that the verse says have not menstruated yet. Those are your own words. So your own evidence shows it refers to those who menstruate but have not done so at the time of divorce.

Nobody else seems to have this problem in understanding this ..

It refers to those who hoe not yet menstruated, but will one day. CHILDREN. It really is abundantly clear. That is what the verse says and what the authoritative tafsir says, and that is what Muslims understand it to say. That is what sharia implements. If you refuse to process simple facts, what can I say?

You can twist it for your own amusement as much as you want, it says what it says.

[manfred]

It means exactly what the dictionary says maturity and puberty means.

A quote is needed here.

[Hombre]

Response:........ Those are your own words. So your own evidence shows it refers to those who menstruate but have not done so at the time of divorce. Debunked as usual. Try again.

Good boy!!!. Now we see you use new tactic (as usual) which you borrowed from us. Keep it up. After all, it is you who follows Muhammad's example of plagiarize from others, and render them as your own.

[Al-Fatihah]

A quote is needed here.

Response: Literacy is needed here.

[Al-Fatihah]

Nobody else seems to have this problem in understanding this ..

It refers to those who hoe not yet menstruated, but will one day. CHILDREN. It really is abundantly clear. That is what the verse says and what the authoritative tafsir says, and that is what Muslims understand it to say. That is what sharia implements. If you refuse to process simple facts, what can I say?

You can twist it for your own amusement as much as you want, it says what it says.

Response: It refers to those who menstruate but have not done so at the time of divorce.

Denial is not a logical rebuttal.

[manfred]

Literacy is needed here.

Keep your insults. A quote is needed to show what YOUR definition of these terms are, as you well know.

Denial is not a logical rebuttal.

Good. So stop doing it. It seems, like Alice in Wonderland, you give yourself very good advice, but very rarely follow it.

[sum]

Hello Al-Fatihah

You are avoiding answering my questions.

Please give me, in your own words, your understanding of "maturity" and "puberty". Islamic definitions often differ from non-muslim definitions and so I would like to know what you, as a muslim, understand by these words.

You have also avoided telling me where Islam states that a man must have consent from a woman before sexual intercourse occurs and so I ask you to give me the Islamic guidance on this matter.

Please answer my questions.

sum

[Al-Fatihah]

Keep your insults. A quote is needed to show what YOUR definition of these terms are, as you well know.

Response: No. Literacy is needed.

Good. So stop doing it. It seems, like Alice in Wonderland, you give yourself very good advice, but very rarely follow it.

Response: Only in the eyes of the deluded.

[Al-Fatihah]

Hello Al-Fatihah

You are avoiding answering my questions.

Please give me, in your own words, your understanding of "maturity" and "puberty". Islamic definitions often differ from non-muslim definitions and so I would like to know what you, as a muslim, understand by these words.

You have also avoided telling me where Islam states that a man must have consent from a woman before sexual intercourse occurs and so I ask you to give me the Islamic guidance on this matter.

Please answer my questions.

sum

Response: The definition is the same as the dictionary, and you were told that verse 4:19 of the Qur'an obligates consent.

[Centaur]

Hello Al-Fatihah

You are avoiding answering my questions.

Please give me, in your own words, your understanding of "maturity" and "puberty". Islamic definitions often differ from non-muslim definitions and so I would like to know what you, as a muslim, understand by these words.

You have also avoided telling me where Islam states that a man must have consent from a woman before sexual intercourse occurs and so I ask you to give me the Islamic guidance on this matter.

Please answer my questions.

sum

Response: The definition is the same as the dictionary, and you were told that verse 4:19 of the Qur'an obligates consent.

oh ye believe did you forget that Mohammed raped safiya, molested Aisha and bonked daughter in law and made out with sex slave maria infront his other wife hafsa.Allah knows the best.

[manfred]

The definition is the same as the dictionary

We need YOUR definition, not someone else's.

I help you by putting mine first.

"Maturity" to me can mean different things in different context. In the context of sex and marriage is means not merely that one of more physical signs of puberty can be observed, it means also an emotional and mental maturity, the ability to understand the concept of marriage and the enormous commitment involved, and the freedom to make an independent, informed personal decision.

Nobody can seriously suggest that Aisha when "marrying" Mohammed fitted that description. At age 9 a free, real consent to marriage is simply not possible.

[Hombre]

Nobody else seems to have this problem in understanding this ..

It refers to those who hoe not yet menstruated, but will one day. CHILDREN. It really is abundantly clear. That is what the verse says and what the authoritative tafsir says, and that is what Muslims understand it to say. That is what sharia implements. If you refuse to process simple facts, what can I say?

You can twist it for your own amusement as much as you want, it says what it says.

Response: It refers to those who menstruate but have not done so at the time of divorce.

Denial is not a logical rebuttal.

So!! now we discover Muhammad was a gynecologist, expert on women biological cycles too?

[Hombre]

Response: The definition is the same as the dictionary, and you were told that verse 4:19 of the Qur'an obligates consent.

Oblige Muslims to ask women's consent before they rape them. Read the hidden messages in your Quran.

[manfred]

4:19 of the Qur'an obligates consent

Let's have a look...
Here is the verse:

O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.

And here is what the Jalalayn have to say about it:

O you who believe, it is not lawful for you to inherit women against their will (read either karhan or kurhan, as alternative forms) that is to say, coercing them into this. In pre-Islamic times, they used to inherit women from their kin, and if they so wished they could marry [a woman] without a dowry, or marry her off and take the dowry for themselves, or prevent her [from marriage] until she gave up what she had inherited, or until she died and they could inherit from her. They were thus forbidden such practices; neither debar them, your [former] wives from marrying others by retaining them while you have no desire for them yourselves, only to harm them; so that you may go off with part of what you have given them, of the dowry, except when they commit flagrant (read mubayyina, ‘making it clear’, or mubayyana, ‘clear’) lewdness, such as adultery or rebellion, then you have the right to coerce them until they redeem themselves to you or forfeit [their dowries]. Consort with them in kindness, that is, being decent in speaking [to them], with regard to [their] expenditure and lodging; for if you hate them, then be patient; it may happen that you hate a thing wherein God has set much good, that is to say, perhaps He does this when He provides you with a righteous child through them.

And this is what Ibn Abbas explains:

(O ye who believe! It is not lawful for you forcibly) coercively (to inherit the women (of your deceased kinsmen)) the women of your fathers, (nor (that) ye should put constraint upon them) by preventing them from marrying again. This verse was revealed about Kabshah Bint Ma'an al-Ansariyyah and Muhsin Ibn Abi Qays al-Ansari; for before the advent of Islam, they used to inherit the women of their fathers (that ye may take away a part of that which ye have given them) take away part of that which your fathers gave them, (unless they be guilty of flagrant lewdness) unless they are guilty of fornication by the testimony of witnesses in which case they should be imprisoned. However, imprisoning fornicators was abrogated by the verse on stoning. In the pre-Islamic period, men used to inherit the wives of their fathers in the same way as they inherited their properties. The wife of a deceased father used to be inherited by the eldest son. If the woman was rich and beautiful, the eldest son would marry her without giving her any dowry. If, however, she was neither rich, young nor beautiful, he would not marry her but instead leave her untouched until she ransomed herself with her own money. Allah forbade them from indulging in such a practice. Then He showed them how one must treat women, saying: (But consort with them) keep their company (in kindness) with beneficence and goodness, (for if ye hate them) i.e. hate their company (it may happen that ye hate a thing) their company (wherein Allah hath placed much good) Allah may provide you with righteous children from them.

So this verse is about how the wives of your father should be treated when he dies. It deals with some very unsavoury practices that we hear were common place in such situations, and says nothing at all about brides like Aisha. She was not someone's old stepmother now, was she?

There really is nothing in this verse nor in the tafsir suggesting that such a woman, or indeed any woman, is an intelligent free being.

[sum]

Hello Al-Fatihah

You present Koran 4:19 to claim that men need consent from the women before they have sex. Koran 4:19 is far too vague and non-specific. Please read the following -

The following is Muhammad’s teaching, as given in the Traditions (see Mishkat, Arabic edition; Babu’n-Nikah):- (ref. 6, p.671)

“When a man calls his wife, she must come, although she be at an oven.”

The greatest of all Islamic scholars, Imam Ghazali writes in his book Ihya Uloom al Din (ref. 7, p.235):

“……..She should prefer her husband before herself, and before all her relatives, she should keep herself clean at all times for her husband to enjoy her whenever he wishes……..”

This is the real meaning of sex in Islam; it is primarily concerned with the sexual satisfaction (read as male orgasm) of men. Women are simply sexual ‘machines’ that must always be in perfect running condition for its ‘master’ to ride on.

What happens if a woman refuses to have sex with her husband when the husband has provided the maintenance? It may sound completely unbelievable, but the Islamic law actually permits a husband to apply force to have sex with her. Shall we call this rape a la Islamic style?

Here is what HEDAYA (ref. 11, p. 141) writes:

One can enjoy a wife by force

But not if she be refractory.—If a wife be disobedient or refractory and go abroad without her husband’s consent, she is not entitled to any support from him, until she return and make submission, because the rejection of the matrimonial restraint in this instance originates with her; but when she returns home, she is then subject to it, for which reason she again becomes entitled to her support as before. It is otherwise where a woman, residing in the house of her husband, refuses to admit him to the conjugal embrace, as she is entitled to maintenance, notwithstanding her opposition, because being then in his power, he may, if he please, enjoys her by force

sum

[Al-Fatihah]

4:19 of the Qur'an obligates consent

Let's have a look...
Here is the verse:

O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.

And here is what the Jalalayn have to say about it:

O you who believe, it is not lawful for you to inherit women against their will (read either karhan or kurhan, as alternative forms) that is to say, coercing them into this. In pre-Islamic times, they used to inherit women from their kin, and if they so wished they could marry [a woman] without a dowry, or marry her off and take the dowry for themselves, or prevent her [from marriage] until she gave up what she had inherited, or until she died and they could inherit from her. They were thus forbidden such practices; neither debar them, your [former] wives from marrying others by retaining them while you have no desire for them yourselves, only to harm them; so that you may go off with part of what you have given them, of the dowry, except when they commit flagrant (read mubayyina, ‘making it clear’, or mubayyana, ‘clear’) lewdness, such as adultery or rebellion, then you have the right to coerce them until they redeem themselves to you or forfeit [their dowries]. Consort with them in kindness, that is, being decent in speaking [to them], with regard to [their] expenditure and lodging; for if you hate them, then be patient; it may happen that you hate a thing wherein God has set much good, that is to say, perhaps He does this when He provides you with a righteous child through them.

And this is what Ibn Abbas explains:

(O ye who believe! It is not lawful for you forcibly) coercively (to inherit the women (of your deceased kinsmen)) the women of your fathers, (nor (that) ye should put constraint upon them) by preventing them from marrying again. This verse was revealed about Kabshah Bint Ma'an al-Ansariyyah and Muhsin Ibn Abi Qays al-Ansari; for before the advent of Islam, they used to inherit the women of their fathers (that ye may take away a part of that which ye have given them) take away part of that which your fathers gave them, (unless they be guilty of flagrant lewdness) unless they are guilty of fornication by the testimony of witnesses in which case they should be imprisoned. However, imprisoning fornicators was abrogated by the verse on stoning. In the pre-Islamic period, men used to inherit the wives of their fathers in the same way as they inherited their properties. The wife of a deceased father used to be inherited by the eldest son. If the woman was rich and beautiful, the eldest son would marry her without giving her any dowry. If, however, she was neither rich, young nor beautiful, he would not marry her but instead leave her untouched until she ransomed herself with her own money. Allah forbade them from indulging in such a practice. Then He showed them how one must treat women, saying: (But consort with them) keep their company (in kindness) with beneficence and goodness, (for if ye hate them) i.e. hate their company (it may happen that ye hate a thing) their company (wherein Allah hath placed much good) Allah may provide you with righteous children from them.

So this verse is about how the wives of your father should be treated when he dies. It deals with some very unsavoury practices that we hear were common place in such situations, and says nothing at all about brides like Aisha. She was not someone's old stepmother now, was she?

There really is nothing in this verse nor in the tafsir suggesting that such a woman, or indeed any woman, is an intelligent free being.

Response: The verse clearly mentions not to inherit a woman against her will, thus clearly proving consent is obligated.

[Al-Fatihah]

Hello Al-Fatihah

You present Koran 4:19 to claim that men need consent from the women before they have sex. Koran 4:19 is far too vague and non-specific. Please read the following -

The following is Muhammad’s teaching, as given in the Traditions (see Mishkat, Arabic edition; Babu’n-Nikah):- (ref. 6, p.671)

“When a man calls his wife, she must come, although she be at an oven.”

The greatest of all Islamic scholars, Imam Ghazali writes in his book Ihya Uloom al Din (ref. 7, p.235):

“……..She should prefer her husband before herself, and before all her relatives, she should keep herself clean at all times for her husband to enjoy her whenever he wishes……..”

This is the real meaning of sex in Islam; it is primarily concerned with the sexual satisfaction (read as male orgasm) of men. Women are simply sexual ‘machines’ that must always be in perfect running condition for its ‘master’ to ride on.

What happens if a woman refuses to have sex with her husband when the husband has provided the maintenance? It may sound completely unbelievable, but the Islamic law actually permits a husband to apply force to have sex with her. Shall we call this rape a la Islamic style?

Here is what HEDAYA (ref. 11, p. 141) writes:

One can enjoy a wife by force

But not if she be refractory.—If a wife be disobedient or refractory and go abroad without her husband’s consent, she is not entitled to any support from him, until she return and make submission, because the rejection of the matrimonial restraint in this instance originates with her; but when she returns home, she is then subject to it, for which reason she again becomes entitled to her support as before. It is otherwise where a woman, residing in the house of her husband, refuses to admit him to the conjugal embrace, as she is entitled to maintenance, notwithstanding her opposition, because being then in his power, he may, if he please, enjoys her by force

sum

Response: Yet verse 4:19 clearly says not to inherit a woman against her will, thus there is no force.

[manfred]

[Hombre]

Response: Yet verse 4:19 clearly says not to inherit a woman against her will, thus there is no force.

It is clear the verses talks about property inherited by women - not herself used as property (sex 0bject) by another men.

[sum]

Al-Fatihah hates Muhammad and Islam. He hates Muhammad`s paedophilia when he had sex with Aisha when she was only 9yrs old and he was all of 53yrs old. He hates Muhammad and muslims raping female captives, his surprise raids on peaceful caravans, surprise raids on villages where the men who resisted were killed and their wives and children taken as slaves and sex slaves. He hates throat slitting, crucifixion and amputations.

He comes to the Forum to seek reassurance from us that his "private" apostasy is fully justified.

Isn`t it about time, Al-Fatihah, that you were truly honest with yourself and see that you have been indoctrinated with a most evil doctrine?

sum