Page 1 of 1

Debating Muslims over violence against women

PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:59 pm
by TonyT
The koran verse 4.34 encourages domestic violence against women. And there are certainly plenty of cases of violence against women in Islamic countries that often grab the headlines in the west because of the level of injustice. For example women burning themselves alive as a desperate attempt to get attention in a country where they cannot get justice, etc. (http://afghanistan.blogs.cnn.com/2010/11/24/desperate-women-burn-themselves/)

Muslims seem to have a very good tactic to defend Islam when these sorts of issues are brought up. I had a debate with a Muslim by the name of Rahimi, here are some quotes of his:

Facts and numerous studies shows direct correlation between alcohol and crime rate in particular domestic abuse. It is a fact that Islam prohibited alcohol and the highest consumption of alcohol is in the west. It is a fact that when it comes to domestic abuse, the main perpetrators are those from the west, not from Muslims countries..
Therefore, do you think that the west has any ground to stand on in criticizing and lecturing Muslims on the issue?


It is rather ironic though, while these people from countries where atheism is prevalent, cries about women right and abuse of women in Islamic societies, the real world statistics shows that, when it comes to abusing and killing women, these countries feature prominently on top. In US for example, almost 2000 women lost their life every year, killed by their husband or boyfriend..


Frankly I do not bother about such articles (i.e. articles about abuse in Muslims Countries) much nor I form my opinion based on some one sided and bias writeups. Keep in mind that the statistics and the facts from your own country is that almost 2000 women lost their live at the hand of their husbands every year, some tens of thousands of reported cases of physical abuse by spouses every year, and there's a woman somewhere, in your country, getting raped every two minutes or so. The same with suicide, your country is way up there in term of number of people committing suicide, what difference does it make whether someone burns herself than say jumping off the building or shooting oneself on the head? It's still suicide and your types are by far the biggest number of those who killed themselves.


The obvious responses to these kinds of arguments are the following:
1) Domestic violence is not even a crime in some Islamic countries, so obviously the cases go unreported. The problem with this though it is almost impossible to prove.
2) The laws in some Muslim countries actually protect the abuser and punish the victim. I.e. in cases where the victim is put in jail for running away or being forced to marry her rapist, etc.
3) Violence against women in the west may be quite common but it is considered a terrible crime and the perpetrators of those crimes are criminals who will be brought to justice if they are convicted which is totally different from the situation in the Islamic World where violence against women is actually state sanctioned and protected by laws and customs. But the problem with this defense is that Muslims will just claim that domestic violence is a crime in all Muslim countries.

The biggest problem is that Muslims will simply hide behind the notion that reported cases of violence against women are statistically low in the Middle East. They have some trouble providing reliable statistics that prove that violence against women is higher in the West. But then I have just as much trouble proving statistically that violence against women is higher in Islamic countries. So then the debate simply fizzles out as a stalemate. But really the victory is with the Muslim side because they have effectively defended an attack on Islam.

The question I have is how to turn this stalemate into a decisive victory? Does anybody know of any good websites that statistically show just how prevalent the problem of violence against women is in the Middle East? What about reliable and official statistics that show cases of rape, murder, etc. against women in all countries? (Mulsim and non-Muslim)

You can see the entire debate I had with Rahimi here:
gawaher.com/topic/733541-to-any-atheist-who-has-the-nerve-to-say-that-islam-degrades/page__st__40 (I chime into the discussion on page 2)

Re: Debating Muslims over violence against women

PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:32 pm
by ixolite
There was a study done a couple of years ago in Turkey.

It has been reported that one out of five women in South Australia has been exposed to domestic violence in forms of physical and/or sexual abuse (18). Violence against women in North America is still prevalent, with lifetime prevalence of 40%-51% (19). The rate of physical violence is higher in developing than in developed countries. The rate of women who are exposed to violence by their husbands is 45% in India, 47% in Philippines, 52% in Kenya (20). In Arab and Islamic countries, domestic violence is not yet considered a major concern, although its frequency is quite high. Surveys carried out in those countries have shown that the ratio of women who have been exposed to violence by their husbands is at least one in three women (21).


A study including 300 married women treated in the psychiatric outpatient clinic of the Hospital of Cumhuriyet University showed that domestic violence against women was highly prevalent and that women were trying to hide it (22). The study determined that 57% of women in the 16-29 age group were exposed to physical violence. The prevalence of emotional violence was 36%, economical 32%, sexual 30.7%, and verbal 29.3%.
According to data from the Institution of Family Research (23), 35% of women in Turkey experienced physical violence from their husbands. According to the research, domestic violence was common to all socio-economical levels both in urban and rural areas.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2080475/

A government study, "Research on Domestic Violence against Women in Turkey", shows that almost half of Turkish women -- 48.5% -- experience some form of violence, but only rarely admit to being victims.

http://www.setimes.com/cocoon/setimes/x ... portage-01

Four out of 10 women in Turkey are beaten by their husbands, according to the recent study entitled "Domestic Violence against Women in Turkey,” which has collected the first official statistics on this topic in Turkey. Even more disturbing, the study reveals that a significant number of abused women, almost 90 percent, do not seek help from any organization.

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/turk ... statistics

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 1907001140
http://uudenmaanpiiri.mll.fi/@Bin/126557/vaw_Turkey.pdf
http://www.stopvaw.org/turkey.html

Re: Debating Muslims over violence against women

PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:05 am
by Dhivehi Hanguraama
Disciplining a disobedient wife does not make one a bad husband; nor more than disciplining an unruly horse would make one a bad equestrian.

Of course, that is not to say that beatings and such are the preferrable form of disciplining; indeed, the Qur'an only encourages it as a last resort after all other options have been exhausted. It is much preferrable to sternly talk to them when they have done wrong, and this is partly done for their own benefit.

Re: Debating Muslims over violence against women

PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:35 pm
by ringmaster
Dhivehi Hanguraama wrote:Disciplining a disobedient wife does not make one a bad husband; nor more than disciplining an unruly horse would make one a bad equestrian.

Of course, that is not to say that beatings and such are the preferrable form of disciplining; indeed, the Qur'an only encourages it as a last resort after all other options have been exhausted. It is much preferrable to sternly talk to them when they have done wrong, and this is partly done for their own benefit.



So a wife who has a mind of her own is like an unruly horse?

That's the sort of comparison I would expect to hear from a muslim.

Maybe that's why Khomeini suggested that having sex with docile animals like goats and sheep is OK????