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Re: "kind" treatment of spouses

PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:06 pm
by Nosuperstition
KhaliL FarieL wrote:
joseph wrote:I have couple of cops who are my good friends. Even they beat up their wives when these women cross certain lines.

I used to dislike men, especially cops, who strike women. But later I came to see that its not too bad a thing as it is made out to be. There are many police officers who have no problem with men slapping a woman on the face in some circumstances.

Many cops turn a blind eye if they think the woman was asking for it.



You are disgustingly sick...a very good candidate for being a true Muslim. Go on you crank..good luck;


Joseph is a Christian name.The appropriate muslim name should have been Yusuf.

Re: "kind" treatment of spouses

PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:09 pm
by Sanitarium
joseph wrote:Many cops turn a blind eye if they think the woman was asking for it.


I call baloney on this mate, sorry. It's against the law for cops to do this, and they can lose their job if the woman (or someone else) files a complaint. It's not worth their job to 'turn a blind eye.'

You're full of it.

Re: "kind" treatment of spouses

PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:10 pm
by joseph
Christians also allow for wife beating.

Some Christians told me stuff in the Bible that lets husband physically correct their wives.

Therefore, Koran and Bible [ and cops ] seem to agrees on some domestic issues.

Re: "kind" treatment of spouses

PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:19 pm
by Sanitarium
joseph wrote:Christians also allow for wife beating.

Some Christians told me stuff in the Bible that lets husband physically correct their wives.

Therefore, Koran and Bible [ and cops ] seem to agrees on some domestic issues.


Give us the bible verse please.

(oh and did you see my post above?)

Re: "kind" treatment of spouses

PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:34 pm
by Nosuperstition
Sanitarium wrote:
joseph wrote:Christians also allow for wife beating.

Some Christians told me stuff in the Bible that lets husband physically correct their wives.

Therefore, Koran and Bible [ and cops ] seem to agrees on some domestic issues.


Give us the bible verse please.

(oh and did you see my post above?)


Christ is supposed to be the head of the church and a man is supposed to be head of the woman.So a woman is supposed to be subservient to the man/servant to man.Might be root Greek words servant and slave are interchangeable.God is like a slave master/master who beats his slaves or servants with stripes.So may be wife-beating has theological basis.It is quite possible that I may have erred in my deductions.

Re: "kind" treatment of spouses

PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:38 pm
by Sanitarium
Thank you nosuperstition, but that is not what Joseph has stated. Here it is again:

joseph wrote:Some Christians told me stuff in the Bible that lets husband physically correct their wives.


So we're not talking about interpreting verses - joseph is implying that there is a verse in the bible that is on par with the Quran's 4:34. This is why I wanted the verse.

Thank you for your input though - very interesting!

Re: "kind" treatment of spouses

PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:37 pm
by expozIslam
joseph wrote:Christians also allow for wife beating.

Some Christians told me stuff in the Bible that lets husband physically correct their wives.

Therefore, Koran and Bible [ and cops ] seem to agrees on some domestic issues.

I am also telling you that Mohammad was a pedophile, a criminal, a murderer. Why don't you accept that?

Re: "kind" treatment of spouses

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm
by joseph
This topic seems to be split off to here:

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=3480&start=0

Re: "kind" treatment of spouses

PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 10:54 pm
by booktalker
Hi Joseph

I think the difference is that in the "west", whilst abuse happens far too frequently, it's a matter for the individual's conscience. The problem that most people who post here have is that they can see clearly that there ARE valid instructions in Islam which allow - even encourage - what to us is the unfair and unjust treatment of women. Also, what you used as a counter argument in the first place - i.e. using texts which show how Islam tells men to treat women well - is a contradiction of the post which gives the texts which shows the exact opposite. This is one of the HUGE problems of Islam - it seems to me that you can justify any behaviour you want, good or bad, depending on the behaviour that you want to justify.

If you stand back and look at it objectively, you can't deny that Islam treats women as second class citizens and also fears their "power", such that it must be contained and controlled. As A Muslim, you can't go against the basic belief that women are lesser creatures. Women are NOT treated as equals. I do believe that men and women are different, but if it has been drilled into you that Allah says that women are inferior, you will not be able to see our side of the argument which is that this is an archaic and dangerous point of view. The west has moved on, whilst Islam hasn't and can't.

I will give you a few quotations from some modern Muslim female books, e.g. "Beyond the Veil" by Fatima Mernissi, plus some other references:

"Women's inferiority [in Islam] is the outcome of specific social institutions designed to restrain her power".

"The whole system is based on the assumption that women are powerful and dangerous beings" [and institutions such as polygamy, repudiation, sexual segreation etc. are a strategy for constraining their power].

[11th century text]: "If the desire of the flesh dominates the individual and is not controlled by the fear of God, it leads men to commit destructive acts."

"Women are better able to control their sexual impulses and consequently sexual segregation is a device to protect men, not women."

Imam Ghazali: "Women must be controlled to prevent men from being distracted from their social and religous duties."

and "The virtue of the woman is a man's duty" (That takes us back to other threads regarding the absorption of the honour culture into Islam)

and (paraphrased) "women's powers are the most destructive element in the Muslim social order, in which the feminine is regarded as synonymous with the satanic."

Imam Muslim: A woman "resembles Satan in his irresistable power over the individual".

"When a man and a woman are united in the presence of each other, Satan is bound to be their third companion."

Abbas Mahmud al Aqqudd: "The woman's submission to the man's conquest is one of the strongest sources of women's pleasure."

Muhammad: "After my disappearance there will be no greater source of chaos and disorder for my nation than women."

Joseph, whilst Muslims believe this and live it, there will always be a wide gulf between us.

The west has moved on. On the whole (and of course there are exceptions), 'western' men are INSULTED that they are assumed to be incapable of controlling themselves in the presence of women. It just doesn't happen any more. They are ASHAMED to treat others in the way Islam instructs, and this is because of the way in which the concept of "honour" has changed for us but not for you. We have learned to see the sense and value in treating each other as equal human beings first, men and women second. It's all about education, but while Islam forces you to remain in this 7th century mindset, and you believe that it is what Allah said and wanted, how can we move on?

B

Re: "kind" treatment of spouses

PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:16 pm
by Nosuperstition
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1156&p=57983#p57983

MassiveZebra said that Shudras(servant as opposed to Dasyus or slaves) are necessary in every society and them being thought of as being born of feet of purusha does not mean lowly or something while responding to bukitdago in Christianity in India thread.Ryan said that many of the present day Brahmins who serve others technically come under Shudras.In the attributetohinduism site,it was mentioned that the feet of personified god Keshava/Krishna(black haired Vishnu/black colored one) is always considered holy to embrace and as such denoted by foot cannot imply that Shudras are lowly.

On the same lines I have read at evilbible site that in the Jewish tradition,the upper half i.e the part above the waist of human beings as well as God is pure while the lower part is impure.So from these things we can deduce that the woman not being the head of the body need not necessarily mean that she is disposible/lowly.She is also as much important as head.If she is a servant/slave of man(depending on the root Greek/Hebrew or Latin words)and lower than him,the OT states that beating slaves is O.K as long as he/she is not dead too quickly (EX 21:20-21).So clearly the woman is disposible at will just as a slave is disposible at will.

God is like a slave master who beats slaves with stripes according to the New Testament.By the principle of ipso moto wives who are servants to their husbands most of the time can also be beaten with stripes!

Re: "kind" treatment of spouses

PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:23 pm
by Nosuperstition
Somewhere between 2001 to 2003,when I was in severe depression,I visualised God Keshava or Krishna or Vishnu whom I accepted as my personal god as having planted his feet deep into my heart and my washing his feet with blood or visualised him as a tiny child in my arms.Whenever I thought of hugging him deeply,I felt that it is wrong to get aroused sexually and immediately returned to visualising him as a child in my arms with whom no such lust is involved.

Re: "kind" treatment of spouses

PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:33 pm
by booktalker
I'd like to hear Joseph's reply to my last post.

I'd also like to see a formal debate set up between a couple of respected women - Muslimahs vs ex-Mulsimahs - with regard to the issues raised earlier, amongst others. In fact, I'll start a new topic on it....

Re: "kind" treatment of spouses

PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 3:00 pm
by Sameer
by dianagrace »

How would any man feel about being covered from head to toe, seriously? Islam is such a silly religion, and the men blame the women for everything!


Thats right,the men blame the women for everything like they are perfect.They marry 4 wives whenever they want.A women need 4 mens as witnesses if she gets raped(This one rule is enough to prove ? respect given for women in Islam).So that means 4 mens should watch a men getting raped ? :huh: Even knowing these rules,many stupid muslim womens says Islam is the freedom.STUPIDS...Those who agree those rules stinks!!! I have no idea how many muslims agree with those sick violent rule on womens.

Women dont have equal rights as men in ISlam.But many stupids always says that Islam gives equal rights to women as men which is not true.

Re: "kind" treatment of spouses

PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:05 am
by Nosuperstition
Nosuperstition wrote:http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1156&p=57983#p57983

MassiveZebra said that Shudras(servant as opposed to Dasyus or slaves) are necessary in every society and them being thought of as being born of feet of purusha does not mean lowly or something while responding to bukitdago in Christianity in India thread.Ryan said that many of the present day Brahmins who serve others technically come under Shudras.In the attributetohinduism site,it was mentioned that the feet of personified god Keshava/Krishna(black haired Vishnu/black colored one) is always considered holy to embrace and as such denoted by foot cannot imply that Shudras are lowly.

On the same lines I have read at evilbible site that in the Jewish tradition,the upper half i.e the part above the waist of human beings as well as God is pure while the lower part is impure.So from these things we can deduce that the woman not being the head of the body need not necessarily mean that she is disposible/lowly.She is also not as much important as head.If she is a servant/slave of man(depending on the root Greek/Hebrew or Latin words)and lower than him,the OT states that beating slaves is O.K as long as he/she is not dead too quickly (EX 21:20-21).So clearly the woman is disposible at will just as a slave is disposible at will
.


Might be this is the reason why low class women were burned in the medieval societies.Looks as if the pagan wisdom outwits the Christian one,blood sports notwithstanding.Burning is much more painful than death by swords etc.

Re: "kind" treatment of spouses

PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:01 am
by diotima64
Nosuperstition wrote:
Nosuperstition wrote:http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1156&p=57983#p57983

MassiveZebra said that Shudras(servant as opposed to Dasyus or slaves) are necessary in every society and them being thought of as being born of feet of purusha does not mean lowly or something while responding to bukitdago in Christianity in India thread.Ryan said that many of the present day Brahmins who serve others technically come under Shudras.In the attributetohinduism site,it was mentioned that the feet of personified god Keshava/Krishna(black haired Vishnu/black colored one) is always considered holy to embrace and as such denoted by foot cannot imply that Shudras are lowly.

On the same lines I have read at evilbible site that in the Jewish tradition,the upper half i.e the part above the waist of human beings as well as God is pure while the lower part is impure.So from these things we can deduce that the woman not being the head of the body need not necessarily mean that she is disposible/lowly.She is also not as much important as head.If she is a servant/slave of man(depending on the root Greek/Hebrew or Latin words)and lower than him,the OT states that beating slaves is O.K as long as he/she is not dead too quickly (EX 21:20-21).So clearly the woman is disposible at will just as a slave is disposible at will
.


Might be this is the reason why low class women were burned in the medieval societies.Looks as if the pagan wisdom outwits the Christian one,blood sports notwithstanding.Burning is much more painful than death by swords etc.


what are you blubbering on about? Low class women were NOT burned in medieval societies.

Re: "kind" treatment of spouses

PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:13 pm
by Nosuperstition
diotima64 wrote:what are you blubbering on about? Low class women were NOT burned in medieval societies.


That piece of information was given by kaptainhowdy who is unbiased and who also criticised pagan Greeks for sacrificing a lot many bulls for Zeus.He also said that Hindu gods needn't be brought in and worshipped in the West as the West has its own list of ancestral pagan gods who can be worshipped(dunno why he then said that he felt an affinity for fierce Hindu goddess Kali). I wish I can bring it back.Unfortunately in this forum that information will be erased by then.

Re: "kind" treatment of spouses

PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:27 pm
by diotima64
Nosuperstition wrote:
diotima64 wrote:what are you blubbering on about? Low class women were NOT burned in medieval societies.


That piece of information was given by kaptainhowdy who is unbiased and who also criticised pagan Greeks for sacrificing a lot many bulls for Zeus.He also said that Hindu gods needn't be brought in and worshipped in the West as the West has its own list of ancestral pagan gods who can be worshipped(dunno why he then said that he felt an affinity for fierce Hindu goddess Kali). I wish I can bring it back.Unfortunately in this forum that information will be erased by then.

Wow - well, if "Kaptainhowdy" says so, surely it must be so, details or more relevant info be damned. :roll:

Admonishing/Chastisement: is within "kind" treatment of spou

PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:17 pm
by paarsurrey
sword_of_truth wrote:Quran 4.34 famously instructs the husband to beat his wife as a third step in getting her to obey him if she is involved in nushoos or ill-conduct.

What qualifies as nushoos? Depends on who you ask.



Hi friends

I give the verses:


[4:35] Men are guardians over women because Allah has made some of them excel others, and because they (men) spend of their wealth. So virtuous women are those who are obedient, and guard the secrets of their husbands with Allah’s protection. And as for those on whose part you fear disobedience, admonish them and leave them alone in their beds, and chastise them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Surely, Allah is High, Great.
[4:36] And if you fear a breach between them, then appoint an arbiter from his folk and an orbiter from her folk. If they (the arbiters) desire reconciliation, Allah will effect it between them. Surely, Allah is All-Knowing, All-Aware.
[4:37] And worship Allah and associate naught with Him, and show kindness to parents, and to kindred, and orphans, and the needy, and to the neighbour that is a kinsman and the neighbour that is a stranger, and the companion by your side, and the wayfarer, and those whom your right hands possess. Surely, Allah loves not the proud and the boastful,
[4:38] Who are niggardly and enjoin people to be niggardly, and conceal that which Allah has given them of His bounty. And We have prepared for the disbelievers an humiliating punishment,
[4:39] And for those who spend their wealth to be seen of men, and believe not in Allah nor the Last Day. And whoso has Satan for his companion, let him remember that an evil companion is he.
[4:40] And what harm would have befallen them, if they had believed in Allah and the Last Day and spent out of what Allah has given them? And Allah knows them full well.
[4:41] Surely, Allah wrongs not any one even by the weight of an atom. And if there be a good deed, He multiplies it and gives from Himself a great reward.

http://www.*you_got_to_be_kidding*/quran/search2/sh ... 4&verse=34

Quran favors men and women living in families and respecting the bond of love they have mutually bound themselves with; Quran does not favor non-family single living and or the ascetic life as does the Christianity. Quran's approach as mentioned above is pro-family and pro-life while that of the Atheists Agnostics and their collaborator Christians here is not that.



So, what is bad if one admonishes are chastises the spouse and saves the family structure for good of the family and children and the society.

The West have forgotten the Role Model of Jesus and Mary; neither Jesus had any girlfriends nor Mary had any boyfriends. Quran wants that the West should adopt Mary as a Role Model of Women, instead of the Celebrity Culture; though popular but in unnatural.

If a woman has any similar grievance against her husband; she could go to the court.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

Re: Admonishing/Chastisement: is within "kind" treatment of spou

PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 11:09 pm
by expozIslam
paarsurrey wrote:
[4:35] Men are guardians over women because Allah has made some of them excel others, and because they (men) spend of their wealth. So virtuous women are those who are obedient, and guard the secrets of their husbands with Allah’s protection. And as for those on whose part you fear disobedience, admonish them and leave them alone in their beds, and chastise them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Surely, Allah is High, Great.

So, what happens if the women own more as was case before Islam screwed it up for women. Khadija owned MO until she died after which the lunatic when berserk.
YOur allah is proven wrong because today there are thousands of women who earn millions and can virtually buy men?So where does your Allah's verses fit in such a context?

Re: "kind" treatment of spouses

PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 8:46 pm
by ThereIs1Adonai
1. I like Joseph. At least he appears to be a rarity.... and honest Muslim who admits what the Quran says.

2. Figure the odds of a Muslim man choosing to refrain from the sex (vagina) he paid for when he gave the mahr just to 'punish" her. If the woman is not following his rules, she likely does not have good feelings toward him and sex would be nothing less than emotional/mental rape of the wife. She's probably RELIEVED that he stays away. On that thought... what if women disobey just to avoid sex? Have they got the boy trained or what!? :lotpot:

3. I have heard so many rationalizations for the verses about hitting one's wife, in an effort to excuse something even Muslims realize is wrong, it makes my head spin. This is in line with the "honor killing" which is almost always a wife or daughter. How many stories have we seen with an honor killing of a male?

Anyone reading the Quran honestly cannot possibly accept all of it without being brainwashed. God did not give us a mind and then expect us not to use it. THINK folks... it's time to THINK for yourselves.

Maybe Alila (moon-god) actually pitied the rape of women and gave the wives a break once in a while if they just made the guy a bit angry. A little story:

He: Woman! Your hand is showing in front of my guests! Go to your room!

She (in room calling girlfriend): It worked great! I expect him to storm in here and tell me he won't be in my bed tonight because I've been disobedient! Thanks for the idea. Now I can relax alone in my room and finish reading the next book in the Twilight series. That Jacob is so hot!


Girlfriend: It works for me everytime I need a few nights alone. Then I'll apologize and he'll give me another gold bracelet to makeup with me. Of course he only slaps me a bit. He's not wanting to injure me or take my beauty away. He likes the way I look.

She: I know what you mean. I suspect avoiding sex with me will be harder for my grandpa husband than for me. :roflmao:

Girlfriend: Exactly! :roflmao:

She: Gotta go. I hear him coming up the stairs. Chat later. I'll tell you about the book when we talk again. bye.


Peace, Shalom