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Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:48 am
by yeezevee
MesMorial wrote:

.............I have no problem, because 99.9% of people are parroting a few contradictory reports which may or may not be from Muhammad, who may or may not have been a prophet, who may or may not have been infallible in interpretation.

As for the rest, do you detect any desperation in me? Please do not psycho-analyse because you are not close to correctness....................

Cheers.
How are you doing MesMorial? It appears for some reason you are stressing and stretching yourself to the limits. Please take it easy., Many people like you, me and millions who were in Islam or lived Islam, In touch with Islam, the moment they read Islamic scriptures they realize there was something seriously wrong with the "Muhammad" unlike Moses and Christ of Abrahamic religions. Quran is not the problem in Islam but It is Muhammad and his followers who wants to be like him in real life.

Anyways., what is important for all of his "Freedom Of Expression" and Muslims have no right to use threats against that irrespective of what others say and write. Asia bibi of Pakistan is a perfect example of that .. A simple words of her an uneducated woman
"My savior Jesus Christ died for me on a cross,what did your mohamed do for you?"
put her in death row, got killed That governor and millions and millions of economic loss through out Pakistan. Such things happened all over the world including in west in the case of Theo van gogh who was murdered on the road by some Muslim brute.. Same thing is happening with the cases of Salamn Rushdie, Taslima Nasrin, Wafa Sulatana, and 1000s of former Muslims across the globe..

So my point is people like you should work with Muslims and Islamic forums to encourage the participants on "Freedom of Expression" ., In A forum like FFI you have it. You write in support of Muhammad/Quran/Islam and they oppose whatever you write and vice versa.. It is a never ending discussion, So as you said before we will be better of going in to some sunni forums or shia forums to explain and use that "Freedom of Expression". lastly my suggestions is do not over stress yourself trying to counter every post in ffi that may have written against your words. You get burned and your words will be ineffective

with best wishes
yeezevee

Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:07 am
by MesMorial
How are you doing MesMorial? It appears for some reason you are stressing and stretching yourself to the limits. Please take it easy.,
Is that your perception?
So my point is people like you should work with Muslims and Islamic forums to encourage the participants on "Freedom of Expression" ., In A forum like FFI you have it. You write in support of Muhammad/Quran/Islam and they oppose whatever you write and vice versa..
No that is not what I do here.
So as you said before we will be better of going in to some sunni forums or shia forums to explain and use that "Freedom of Expression". lastly my suggestions is do not over stress yourself trying to counter every post in ffi that may have written against your words. You get burned and your words will be ineffective
Well the reason I was going a little more was because maybe I was on fire. If that is what you meant. Otherwise I do not know what you mean.

There are certain people here who look extinguised (or are becoming so). But I do not know why you would advise me to go onto a Sunni forum if I am going to be the only one who does it.

In short, why is your advice not for everyone?

Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:13 am
by yeezevee
MesMorial wrote:............s because maybe I was on fire. If that is what you meant.............
lol. you are on fire...
In short, why is your advice not for everyone?
Other are sharing the fuel to turn on the fire so they are not stressed as much as you are..

Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:18 am
by MesMorial
Dear yeezevee;

Some simple questions you would have expected...
yeezevee wrote:
MesMorial wrote:............s because maybe I was on fire. If that is what you meant.............
lol. you are on fire...
But if I am on fire, why would you advise me not to be?

Would you like to spray some extinguishing words?

Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:21 am
by MesMorial
Other are sharing the fuel to turn on the fire so they are not stressed as much as you are..
If I am stressed, it should be because I am having some trouble. If I am having trouble, could you please clarify it so we can witness it. Otherwise it is hard to play along.

Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:23 am
by MesMorial
After all, I am waiting for people to refute my approach. Without that happening, I can only be reminding folks. If I do not remind, it is a waste of time.

If reminding is a waste of time, it means the people have already burnt down.

The analogy is a group of things intent on joining a successful approach only when it is demonstrated that the approach can solve the whole issue (by solving it).

...

P.S. If you want to know exactly how stressed I get, you are welcome to download my complete poetry (from YT). I am not the time to waste my time when there are nicer things to do, unless I am on the scent. The majority of what I learn comes from debating, and Antineo has provided me with the opportunity for increased understanding, as has Jimi. The rest simply confirms the self (the way), and since everything is personal, it does not matter whether we succeed or fail. In order to do either properly, we must try.

Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:09 pm
by iffo
MM you are on fire because you have been drowned here.
The all knowing Allah/muhammad talked BS in Quran that's why 99.9% people got it wrong despite being sincere.
Do not get so wrapped up in your ego. It was not difficult for Allah to use clear words, hell i can do that why Allah can't

Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:12 am
by MesMorial
iffo wrote:MM you are on fire because you have been drowned here.
The all knowing Allah/muhammad talked BS in Quran that's why 99.9% people got it wrong despite being sincere.
Do not get so wrapped up in your ego. It was not difficult for Allah to use clear words, hell i can do that why Allah can't
My analogy for you is one who sits on a cushion he has always been sitting on, and then when someone explains logically why it is useless and illogical to sit on that cushion, he snuggles into it tighter and hopes it hurts the person.

Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:26 am
by MesMorial
Whilst I am at the stage of having answered or neutralised what people should not be saying (to me), I will take an indefinite hiatus. There is after all a cockroach on my YT.

Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:27 pm
by sum
Did Muhammad not understand his Koran? He condoned wife beating and so it would seem only right to confirm that 4:34 does mean beat. How can one argue against the example of Muhammad?

Book 11, Number 2142:
Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab:

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife


sum

Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 1:10 am
by MesMorial
sum wrote:Did Muhammad not understand his Koran? He condoned wife beating and so it would seem only right to confirm that 4:34 does mean beat. How can one argue against the example of Muhammad?

Book 11, Number 2142:
Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab:

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife


sum
Yes the ahadith are examples of why they are not needed. Once again, the reports are contradictory and theologically unsound. They are also unproved, but you are harping on the same premise. The point is that beating does not make sense using the Qur'an, and scholars have found the details on the subject lacking. Refer to my previoius posts, and try to get the point. For now, I will resume my holiday.

I am sure you will not be going anywhere (pun).

Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 3:16 am
by iffo
MesMorial wrote:
sum wrote:Did Muhammad not understand his Koran? He condoned wife beating and so it would seem only right to confirm that 4:34 does mean beat. How can one argue against the example of Muhammad?

Book 11, Number 2142:
Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab:

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife


sum
Yes the ahadith are examples of why they are not needed. Once again, the reports are contradictory and theologically unsound. They are also unproved, but you are harping on the same premise. The point is that beating does not make sense using the Qur'an, and scholars have found the details on the subject lacking. Refer to my previoius posts, and try to get the point. For now, I will resume my holiday.

I am sure you will not be going anywhere (pun).
Only scholars who don't think beating is not allowed by Quran are those who live in west and are desperate to give a positive image of their religion by lying to others.

From Quran Reformist site
A Famous Multi-Meaning Word
The main problem comes from the word "Idribuhunne," which has traditionally been translated as "beat them." The root of this word is "DaRaBa". If you look at any Arabic dictionary, you will find a long list of meanings ascribed to this word. In fact, you will find that that list is one of the longest lists in your Arabic dictionary. It can be said that "DaRaBa" is the number-one multi-meaning word in Arabic. It has so many different meanings, we can find numerous different meanings ascribed to it in the Quran.

To travel, to get out: 3:156; 4:101; 38:44; 73:20; 2:273
To strike: 2:60,73; 7:160; 8:12; 20:77; 24:31; 26:63; 37:93; 47:4
To beat: 8:50; 47:27
To set up: 43:58; 57:13
To give (examples): 14:24,45; 16:75,76,112; 18:32,45; 24:35; 30:28,58; 36:78; 39:27,29; 43:17; 59:21; 66:10,11
To take away, to ignore: 43:5
To condemn: 2:61
To seal, to draw over: 18:11
To cover: 24:31
To explain: 13:17
Now I ask why the wise all knowing god will use the word in his final message that has multiple meaning. What is he trying achieve here, confuse the people? Another very dumb thing to do.

Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:17 am
by sum
The context of Quranic verse 4:34 which allows men to beat their wives is given by Al-Wahidi:

(Men are in charge of women…) [4:34]. Said Muqatil: “This verse (Men are in charge of women…) was revealed about Sa‘d ibn al-Rabi‘, who was one of the leaders of the Helpers, and his wife Habibah bint Zayd ibn Abi Zuhayr, both of whom from the Helpers. It happened Sa‘d hit his wife on the face because she rebelled against him. Then her father went with her to see the Prophet, He said to him: ‘I gave him my daughter in marriage and he slapped her’. The Prophet said: ‘Let her have retaliation against her husband’. As she was leaving with her father to execute retaliation, the Prophet, called them and said: ‘Come back; Gabriel has come to me’, and Allah, revealed this verse. The Messenger of Allah, said: ‘We wanted something while Allah wanted something else, and that which Allah wants is good’. Retaliation was then suspended”.

Sa‘id ibn Muhammad ibn Ahmad al-Zahid informed us through Zahir ibn Ahmad via Ahmad ibn al-Husayn ibn Junayd via Ziyad ibn Ayyub via Hushaym via Yunus ibn al-Hasan who reported that a man slapped his wife and she complained about him to the Prophet. Her family who went with her said: “O Messenger of Allah! So-and-so has slapped our girl”. The Prophet kept saying: “Retaliation! Retaliation! And there is no other judgment to be held”. But then this verse (Men are in charge of women…) was revealed and the Prophet said: “We wanted something and Allah wanted something else”.

Abu Bakr al-Harithi informed us through Abu’l-Shaykh al-Hafiz via Abu Yahya al-Razi via Sahl al-‘Askari via ‘Ali ibn Hashim via Isma‘il via al-Hasan who said: “Around the time when the verse on retaliation was revealed amongst the Muslims, a man had slapped his wife. She went to the Prophet and said: ‘My husband has slapped me and I want retaliation’. So he said: ‘Let there be retaliation’. As he was still dealing with her, Allah, exalted is He, revealed (Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other…). Upon which the Prophet, said: ‘We wanted something and my Lord wanted something different. O man, take your wife by the hand’ [Al-Wahidi on Quran 4:34]


Note the context of the verse 4:34. A man from Ansar (Helpers as they were called because of accommodating Muhammad in Medina) comes to Prophet with a case. His daughter has been beaten by her husband and he was seeking retaliatory action against the man. At first, Muhammad prescribes retaliation at first but soon Allah, Muhammad’s alter ego suspends the retaliatory action. Holy verses are descended and Muhammad disappoints the woman as no retaliatory action against the abusive husband can be taken. The woman has to bear the act of violence (of being slapped in the face) because Allah allows men to beat their wives through Qur’anic verses.

The woman in the above incident was beaten on her face. This also takes away the apologetic “beating lightly” because face is the most sensitive part of human beings. If man can beat on the face, it is the harshest beating one can inflict upon another. So, if to understand in context, Qur’an allowed men to beat wives on their faces. This refutes “light beating” excuses put forward by modern day Muslim apologists.

sum

Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:01 pm
by Sten
iffo wrote:Now I ask why the wise all knowing god will use the word in his final message that has multiple meaning. What is he trying achieve here, confuse the people? Another very dumb thing to do.
That's a good point.

Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:13 am
by Dhivehi Hanguraama
There are clear differences between the two genders, with regard to intellectual aptitude and emotional stability. A woman must not feel ashamed that her husband is privileged with the right of (lightly) beating her once certain conditions are met but must praise Allah, that he has given her a caretaker that will correct her when she errs; for without that correction, she would most certainly be in more immediate danger of the torment of the hellfire.

Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:56 am
by iffo
Dhivehi Hanguraama wrote:There are clear differences between the two genders, with regard to intellectual aptitude and emotional stability. A woman must not feel ashamed that her husband is privileged with the right of (lightly) beating her once certain conditions are met but must praise Allah, that he has given her a caretaker that will correct her when she errs; for without that correction, she would most certainly be in more immediate danger of the torment of the hellfire.
There is a clear difference between muslims and non-muslim when it comes to intelligence and you have just proved it.. That's why muslims believe in gender inequality and are 1000 years behind non-muslims and will always be behind, and will be polishing their shoes. It was not god but Muhammad writing quran and assigning punishments to people. if quran was from god it would not have said sperm comes from between ribs and back bone, and Noah put all the spices on the planet in the boat, and had addition mistake when it comes to in how many days world was created. Don't waste your life like this educate and learn

Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:07 am
by Dhivehi Hanguraama
iffo wrote:
Dhivehi Hanguraama wrote:There are clear differences between the two genders, with regard to intellectual aptitude and emotional stability. A woman must not feel ashamed that her husband is privileged with the right of (lightly) beating her once certain conditions are met but must praise Allah, that he has given her a caretaker that will correct her when she errs; for without that correction, she would most certainly be in more immediate danger of the torment of the hellfire.
There is a clear difference between muslims and non-muslim when it come to brain cells. if non-muslim has 100 cells muslims has 50 % of muslims have 70 brain cells. That's why muslims they believe in gender inequality and are 1000 years behind non-muslims and will always be behind. It was not god but Muhammad writing quran and assigning punishments to people. if quran was from god it would not have said sperm comes from between ribs and back bone, and Noah put all the spices on the planet in the boat, and had addition mistake when it comes to in how many days world was created. Don't waste your life like this educate and learn
1) There are statistical, physiological and hormonal differences between men and women; whereas the assertion that Muslims have "50% of a non Muslims brain cells" is an unscientific assertion.

2) Malaysia is behind India then?

Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:38 am
by iffo
Dhivehi Hanguraama wrote:
iffo wrote:
Dhivehi Hanguraama wrote:There are clear differences between the two genders, with regard to intellectual aptitude and emotional stability. A woman must not feel ashamed that her husband is privileged with the right of (lightly) beating her once certain conditions are met but must praise Allah, that he has given her a caretaker that will correct her when she errs; for without that correction, she would most certainly be in more immediate danger of the torment of the hellfire.
There is a clear difference between muslims and non-muslim when it come to brain cells. if non-muslim has 100 cells muslims has 50 % of muslims have 70 brain cells. That's why muslims they believe in gender inequality and are 1000 years behind non-muslims and will always be behind. It was not god but Muhammad writing quran and assigning punishments to people. if quran was from god it would not have said sperm comes from between ribs and back bone, and Noah put all the spices on the planet in the boat, and had addition mistake when it comes to in how many days world was created. Don't waste your life like this educate and learn
1) There are statistical, physiological and hormonal differences between men and women; whereas the assertion that Muslims have "50% of a non Muslims brain cells" is an unscientific assertion.

2) Malaysia is behind India then?
Statistical, physiological and hormonal difference does not mean they are inferior or less of a human than man and can be beaten by husband. A day (Hope not) if your son in law beat your daughter then you will understand what i mean. You don't beat girls. They are to be loved and be gentle and kind. Its your Muhammad backward thinking.

As far as muslims go result speaks for itself, muslims are definately less intelligent and uneducated, and are polishing non-muslims shoes every where and are 1000 years behind. If they don't give you the latest medicines you all probably will be dead in next 50 years. Who will save you from cancer, heart failures, infection diseases, diabates etc You guys have wasted 1400 years, following Muhammad and his man made stupid religion. its better you guys come to your senses now.

Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:07 am
by yeezevee
Dhivehi Hanguraama wrote:
iffo wrote:
Dhivehi Hanguraama wrote:There are clear differences between the two genders, with regard to intellectual aptitude and emotional stability. A woman must not feel ashamed that her husband is privileged with the right of (lightly) beating her once certain conditions are met but must praise Allah, that he has given her a caretaker that will correct her when she errs; for without that correction, she would most certainly be in more immediate danger of the torment of the hellfire.
There is a clear difference between muslims and non-muslim when it come to brain cells. if non-muslim has 100 cells muslims has 50 % of muslims have 70 brain cells. That's why muslims they believe in gender inequality and are 1000 years behind non-muslims and will always be behind. It was not god but Muhammad writing quran and assigning punishments to people. if quran was from god it would not have said sperm comes from between ribs and back bone, and Noah put all the spices on the planet in the boat, and had addition mistake when it comes to in how many days world was created. Don't waste your life like this educate and learn
1) There are statistical, physiological and hormonal differences between men and women; whereas the assertion that Muslims have "50% of a non Muslims brain cells" is an unscientific assertion.

2) Malaysia is behind India then?[/b]

greetings "Dhivehi Hanguraama., what would you like to compare Malaysia and India ?

Religious distribution

All the world's major religions have substantial representation in Malaysia. The Population and Housing Census 2010 figures shows approximately these proportions of the population following these religions

61.3% Islam
19.8% Buddhism
9.2% Christianity
6.3% Hinduism
1.3% Confucianism, Taoism and other traditional Chinese religions
0.7% Atheist
1.4% Other religions or no information

he majority of Malaysian Malay people are Muslim. Most Malaysian Chinese follow a combination of Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism and ancestor-worship. Statistics from the 2010 Census indicate that 83.6% of Malaysia's ethnic Chinese identify as Buddhist, with significant numbers of adherents following Taoism (3.4%) and Christianity (11.1%). Christianity is the predominant religion of the non-Malay Bumiputra community (46.5%) with an additional 40.4% identifying as Muslims. Many indigenous tribes of East Malaysia have converted to Christianity, although Christianity has made fewer inroads into Peninsular Malaysia
. good to know that

Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:42 pm
by frankie
Dhivehi Hanguraama wrote:There are clear differences between the two genders, with regard to intellectual aptitude and emotional stability. A woman must not feel ashamed that her husband is privileged with the right of (lightly) beating her once certain conditions are met but must praise Allah, that he has given her a caretaker that will correct her when she errs; for without that correction, she would most certainly be in more immediate danger of the torment of the hellfire.
D H:
If you are a Muslim,you are obliged to repeat only what you have been told to believe,and not to question your faith,in case you loose it.

If you are a Muslim, why are you following,"divine" commands,that permit you to use physical abuse against someone who is supposed to be loved in a marriage, and the example of Mohammed who conquered lands and killed people in the name of a god,to further its cause.

You have been told to believe a pack of lies,which is provably so.

The origins of the Islamic Allah does not come from the origins of the Christian God,Jesus,or the O.T.Yahweh.Jesus is said to a prophet in Islam yes,but thats as far as it goes.What makes Jesus a prophet,what makes Jesus the Messiah,what purpose did Jesus serve and what did Jesus achieve in his life?Can any Muslim give a satisfactory answer to these questions? As far as I am aware,Muslims can only repeat what the Quran tells them,that is,Jesus was only a messenger.So,what was the message Jesus brought?
According to Christian scripture,Jesus came to save mankind from the powers of evil, and death of the soul,by dying os the cross, rising to eternal life again, and was The Way,The Truth and The Life,to gain entrance to the kingdom of God.

It has always been assumed,indeed it has to be the case if Islam as a faith is to be believed to be true,that the Islamic god Allah is the same god as the Christian and Jewish.Nothing could be further from the truth,Christian teachings and the Ten Commandments command mankind to love his neighbour as himself,which in turn translates as the Golden Rule of life.No such rule exists within Islamic teachings.Muslim are told,they are the "best of peoples",following Allahs true religion.If this were not the case,Muslims would view their fellow humans as their equals,not a people to be fought against to be either subjugated or executed for not accepting Allah and his messenger, Mohammed.