Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

The rights of, or lack thereof, and problems faced by women in Islam
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MesMorial
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Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Post by MesMorial »

Darth;
If you are beating up your wife because you "fear her disobedience", that is *not* self defense and only an idiot could claim that the beating is in self defense.
If it is causing you to fear, you must defend yourself.
- striking the air cannot actually strike the air , therefore it means set forth upon the air
I said that if you swing something in air (without actual intention to “hit the air”), you are setting it forth. However, you would also be striking the air. The actual action of swinging it could be emulated in any position where you might hit something more material (e.g. a table). Of course, intention is the best judge of word-choice.
- strike upon the neck is actually set forth upon the neck (even though one can actually strike the neck)
Yes, because every time you hit something, you are performing the action of setting forth. The intention to hit the neck means that the most direct word-choice is “strike”.
- if you translate as beat, then the beating is in self defense - that is the husband can beat the wife out of fear of her disobedience.
For reasons presented. Sunni/Shia add lots of things to make it work, yet you do not find that funny on a theological base.
- idhrib has been wrongly translated as "beat" for centuries dating back to the time of mo (and the proof is that the messed up mess says so)
It’s all in the wording. The word was always translated as “set forth”, if you look at the other usages in Qur’an.
Did I miss anything?
Of course, you missed the point. With sound logic we can give moral reform momentum. More specifically (in this case), we give Islamic reform momentum. It is actually the only point in talking about anything here.

Cheers.
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Post by iffo »

Yes MM you are right all the Islamic scholars for last 1400 years have been wrong.
It's a loose loose situation. Was it so difficult for your Allah to convey his message in easier straight forwards words that everybody understands and there is no confusion. What kind an idiot your Allah was trying to confuse people putting words that can have 100 different meanings. Was it difficult for him to say 'you can hit her in self defense' or 'you can hit her if she tries to hit you'

Wouldnt you agree a 5th grader can write a better book and that it's a worthless book that can be used as a toilet paper?

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Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Post by skynightblaze »

MesMorial wrote:Darth;
If you are beating up your wife because you "fear her disobedience", that is *not* self defense and only an idiot could claim that the beating is in self defense.
If it is causing you to fear, you must defend yourself.
I think you are degrading yourself. You are making even more insensible arguments than when you were a quran alone muslim. You claim yourself to be a non muslim however you simply are not a non muslim. It is just a lip service and you are still a muslim from within and I think you refuse to acknowledge this. I think we have a clear case of cognitive dissonance. After learning the truth you need to improve upon your arguments with new knowledge but your are exactly going down the learning curve.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

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Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Post by MesMorial »

Iffo;

You have a program to automatically repeat your words so that you do not have to come on?

Your first sentence ignores the logic and misses the point.

Your next sentences ignores the fact that the word means “set forth”, thus the confusion (of Islamic hadith-scholars) indeed should not be there.



Hi Sky;

Not really, but a stupid interpretation requires a stupid answer. Sunnis have their stupid answer, I give you mine whilst reminding you should not be asking for it.

Let me rehash the point:

With sound logic we can give moral reform momentum. More specifically (in this case), we give Islamic reform momentum. It is actually the only point in talking about anything here.

Now if a pack of things come to me and complain that I am not agreeing with scholars, I would say I am not aiming to please such interpretations. Rather, I am pointing out that if you DO NOT WANT to accept my interpretation, then you will run into technical, theological and legal obstacles. This serves to prove that any doctrine with the phenomenon of wife-beating in 4:34 is not sensible, and is false (even if the Qur’an really meant “strike”). Of course, we could say that wife-beating must only be in self-defence, due to these reasons... It sounds stupid, but is a result of logical progression (or of rapid regression and skidding)

On the other hand, the one that requires a theologically-consistent approach whilst being in harmony with legal and technical aspects, offers a way out of that hole.

So you should say: “Sunnism is just a hole, especially because of wife-beating etc.”.
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Post by MesMorial »

Next in the "delivery of stupidity" series: Here are some ahadith on wife-beating:

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?t ... #msg270795" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Post by iffo »

MesMorial wrote:Iffo;

You have a program to automatically repeat your words so that you do not have to come on?

Your first sentence ignores the logic and misses the point.

Your next sentences ignores the fact that the word means “set forth”, thus the confusion (of Islamic hadith-scholars) indeed should not be there.



.
Not a single word about what I said all scholars been wrong in last 1400 years. Like I said if you are right, then your Allah is an idiot putting confusing words in his final message. So the again goes to toilet.

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Post by iffo »

MesMorial wrote:Iffo;

You have a program to automatically repeat your words so that you do not have to come on?

Your first sentence ignores the logic and misses the point.

Your next sentences ignores the fact that the word means “set forth”, thus the confusion (of Islamic hadith-scholars) indeed should not be there.



.
Not a single word about what I said all scholars been wrong in last 1400 years. Like I said if you are right, then your Allah is an idiot putting confusing words in his final message. So the again goes to toilet.

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Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Post by MesMorial »

iffo wrote:
MesMorial wrote:Iffo;

You have a program to automatically repeat your words so that you do not have to come on?

Your first sentence ignores the logic and misses the point.

Your next sentences ignores the fact that the word means “set forth”, thus the confusion (of Islamic hadith-scholars) indeed should not be there.



.
Not a single word about what I said all scholars been wrong in last 1400 years. Like I said if you are right, then your Allah is an idiot putting confusing words in his final message. So the again goes to toilet.
I just showed your scholar material had contradictions, and that beating is (in certain ahadith) supposed to be light even if you love the beating option. The fact it needs explanation still leaves my points unrefuted.

After all I have said, please explain the relevance of scholars. Their inspiration is Hadith, and if guidance (e.g. hadith wife-beating) is contradictory, it cannot be from Allah (4:82).
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Post by iffo »

MesMorial wrote:
iffo wrote:
MesMorial wrote:Iffo;

You have a program to automatically repeat your words so that you do not have to come on?

Your first sentence ignores the logic and misses the point.

Your next sentences ignores the fact that the word means “set forth”, thus the confusion (of Islamic hadith-scholars) indeed should not be there.



.
Not a single word about what I said all scholars been wrong in last 1400 years. Like I said if you are right, then your Allah is an idiot putting confusing words in his final message. So the again goes to toilet.
I just showed your scholar material had contradictions, and that beating is (in certain ahadith) supposed to be light even if you love the beating option. The fact it needs explanation still leaves my points unrefuted.

After all I have said, please explain the relevance of scholars. Their inspiration is Hadith, and if guidance (e.g. hadith wife-beating) is contradictory, it cannot be from Allah (4:82).
You are like person drowning who tries his best to save his life. But you have been drowned here, there is no coming back. There is no contradiction. Even if there was contradiction, Like I said its your stupid Allah who put confusing words in his book that noone could understand despite claims how clearly he explains things. So in both cases you are looser here.
"Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God has gifted the one above the other, and on account of the outlay they make from their substance for them. Virtuous women are obedient, careful, during the husband's absence, because God has of them been careful. But chide those for whose refractoriness you have cause to fear; remove them into beds apart, and scourge them: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them: verily, God is High, Great!" (Rodwell's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)

"Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Surely God is high, supreme." (Dawood's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)


"Men are in charge of women, because Allah has made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah has guarded. As for those from whom you fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great." (Pickthall's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)

"Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God's guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them. If they then obey you, look not for any way against them; God is All high, All great." (Arberry's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)


"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in their sleeping places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great. (Shakir's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)
"
Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whom part you fear disloyalty and ill conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance) for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all). (Ali's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)
Last edited by iffo on Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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MesMorial
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Post by MesMorial »

Hi Iffo;

Yes there is contradiction, but here is another joke:

http://www.islamicfinder.org/articles/a ... php?id=307" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Note where it says beating should not worsen the situation, but it always would. Note also have how it says the Qur'an is clear, but they need parentheses.

Please do not tell me I am drowning when there is gall in your throat.
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Post by iffo »

MesMorial wrote:Hi Iffo;

Yes there is contradiction, but here is another joke:

http://www.islamicfinder.org/articles/a ... php?id=307" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Note where it says beating should not worsen the situation, but it always would. Note also have how it says the Qur'an is clear, but they need parentheses.

Please do not tell me I am drowning when there is gall in your throat.
I already showed you 6 translaitions, there is nothing left to say.

As far as your link goes this guys "Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi, former President of the Islamic Society of North America" is just a shameless desperate fraud as you are showing to everybody here... don't take it to heart. Its no surprise Muslims living in West have to lie more to cover up Islam ugliness in front of non-msulims difficult questions.

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Post by MesMorial »

I already showed you 6 translaitions, there is nothing left to say.
Let's see: all hadith-followers. Except for Rodwell, who gives a different meaning. Maybe he got it confused with 24:2.
Now, I showed you a series of points and issues/questions which you have not responded to.
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Post by darth »

MesMorial wrote:

This serves to prove that any doctrine with the phenomenon of wife-beating in 4:34 is not sensible, and is false (even if the Qur’an really meant “strike”).
We do not question that the quran is false . You on the other hand are working from the premise that it is true and therefore the words must be changed to fit into your own moral code and ethics. This is (as I have said many times before which you don't seem to get) fraudulent.
Yes, wife-beating is not sensible, but quran advices this. It is not only sunnism, entire quran needs to be in a hole.
MesMorial wrote:
Of course, we could say that wife-beating must only be in self-defense,
You cannot claim self defense because you "fear" something.
That is like saying you beat up your wife because you were afraid she would talk to the neighbor
or you beat up your wife because you were afraid she would overcook your pasta.
Totally idiotic.

Be honest and admit openly that you are reinterpreting the quran in a humane fashion rather than pretending that words in quran mean something they do not.

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Post by MesMorial »

Iffo (and darth);

Now the link you copied those translations from is very repetitive when saying "not severely", so maybe that guy is not so much a fraud. Once again, you will not mind if I find the interpretation you agree with to be "funny".

If you want wife-beating, accept that there are problems and that it creates obvious flaws. In this instance choose between wife-abuse and a non-harmful beating to be performed only in extreme cases (the more scholarly one).

If you don't like wife-beating (and its problems) and you still want Islam, accept the other (more natural) interpretation.

Besides, "set forth" is available as a "generally-accepted" translation.

I think we can get around that.
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Post by darth »

MesMorial wrote: If you don't like wife-beating (and its problems) and you still want Islam, accept the other (more natural) interpretation.
We are not muslim. So we are okay with completely rejecting the quran. But if you are a muslim and you believe the quran is from god, then you cannot pick and choose between two different meanings. That itself renders the quran as false (contradicting itself and being unclear). Thus better to throw the quran and islam out and write a whole new book.
MesMorial wrote: Besides, "set forth" is available as a "generally-accepted" translation.
.
The actual word is "beat/strike". This "set forth" is an offshoot explanation that is not the literal translation of idhrib and is simply used contextually.

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We are not muslim. So we are okay with completely rejecting the quran. But if you are a muslim and you believe the quran is from god, then you cannot pick and choose between two different meanings. That itself renders the quran as false (contradicting itself and being unclear). Thus better to throw the quran and islam out and write a whole new book.
When I argue for “set forth”, I am not arguing against their beliefs in God. I am arguing against their adherence to scholars who STILL have to add DETAILS to a book that says it is clear and fully-detailed. Thus if they feel they cannot choose a different meaning without leaving Islam, they must accept there is a flaw. This adds to the ammunition of those who debate against Islam.

It is the sunni approach that makes it unclear, and the sunni approach requires assumptions which say the Qur’an is not clear or full.

The natural all-compatible meaning of the word is to “set forth”, but I am happy to concede this discussion having identified the cost to Sunnism.
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Post by iffo »

MesMorial wrote:
We are not muslim. So we are okay with completely rejecting the quran. But if you are a muslim and you believe the quran is from god, then you cannot pick and choose between two different meanings. That itself renders the quran as false (contradicting itself and being unclear). Thus better to throw the quran and islam out and write a whole new book.
When I argue for “set forth”, I am not arguing against their beliefs in God. I am arguing against their adherence to scholars who STILL have to add DETAILS to a book that says it is clear and fully-detailed. Thus if they feel they cannot choose a different meaning without leaving Islam, they must accept there is a flaw. This adds to the ammunition of those who debate against Islam.

It is the sunni approach that makes it unclear, and the sunni approach requires assumptions which say the Qur’an is not clear or full.

The natural all-compatible meaning of the word is to “set forth”, but I am happy to concede this discussion having identified the cost to Sunnism.
Like I said you lost either way. If the word means "set forth" Your Allah should know better what words to use in his final message to mankind, rather than putting confusing words that most of the people will have it wrong despite being sincere. Why the all knowing wise Allah will do such a thing. A 5th grader will not even do that. Proving this book is no divine book and deserve to go into garbage.

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iffo wrote:
MesMorial wrote:
We are not muslim. So we are okay with completely rejecting the quran. But if you are a muslim and you believe the quran is from god, then you cannot pick and choose between two different meanings. That itself renders the quran as false (contradicting itself and being unclear). Thus better to throw the quran and islam out and write a whole new book.
When I argue for “set forth”, I am not arguing against their beliefs in God. I am arguing against their adherence to scholars who STILL have to add DETAILS to a book that says it is clear and fully-detailed. Thus if they feel they cannot choose a different meaning without leaving Islam, they must accept there is a flaw. This adds to the ammunition of those who debate against Islam.

It is the sunni approach that makes it unclear, and the sunni approach requires assumptions which say the Qur’an is not clear or full.

The natural all-compatible meaning of the word is to “set forth”, but I am happy to concede this discussion having identified the cost to Sunnism.
Like I said you lost either way. If the word means "set forth" Your Allah should know better what words to use in his final message to mankind, rather than putting confusing words that most of the people will have it wrong despite being sincere. Why the all knowing wise Allah will do such a thing. A 5th grader will not even do that. Proving this book is no divine book and deserve to go into garbage.
Now as long as you are incapable of giving a proper response, you will have to shelf your ego.

Blaming the author for the problems of the reader only suggests the reader didn't get it, thus was not a prophet. To do this we have to prove they didn't get it, which means my logic has to hold.

If the meaning was "strike" then the author forgot to explain it, and forgot about the other verses indicating the Qur'an was all that was needed. You were not able to even take advantage of that.
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Post by iffo »

MesMorial wrote:
Now as long as you are incapable of giving a proper response, you will have to shelf your ego.

Blaming the author for the problems of the reader only suggests the reader didn't get it, thus was not a prophet. To do this we have to prove they didn't get it, which means my logic has to hold.

If the meaning was "strike" then the author forgot to explain it, and forgot about the other verses indicating the Qur'an was all that was needed. You were not able to even take advantage of that.
If 99.9% of the readers did not get it, then Yes it was author's fault. So Allah failed miserably in conveying his final message here. You have no logic MM you have only desperation. Desperate to give Quran a positive face because you live in west and there is a conflict between what you believe or learned in west and your beloved religion. I know you very well, because I been in your shoes most of my life, so when I say, I say it with conviction.

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Post by MesMorial »

iffo wrote:
MesMorial wrote:
Now as long as you are incapable of giving a proper response, you will have to shelf your ego.

Blaming the author for the problems of the reader only suggests the reader didn't get it, thus was not a prophet. To do this we have to prove they didn't get it, which means my logic has to hold.

If the meaning was "strike" then the author forgot to explain it, and forgot about the other verses indicating the Qur'an was all that was needed. You were not able to even take advantage of that.
If 99.9% of the readers did not get it, then Yes it was author's fault. So Allah failed miserably in conveying his final message here. You have no logic MM you have only desperation. Desperate to give Quran a positive face because you live in west and there is a conflict between what you believe or learned in west and your beloved religion. I know you very well, because I been in your shoes most of my life, so when I say, I say it with conviction.
I have no problem, because 99.9% of people are parroting a few contradictory reports which may or may not be from Muhammad, who may or may not have been a prophet, who may or may not have been infallible in interpretation.

As for the rest, do you detect any desperation in me? Please do not psycho-analyse because you are not close to correctness.

Cheers.
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