Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

The rights of, or lack thereof, and problems faced by women in Islam
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MesMorial
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Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Post by MesMorial »

One is welcome to believe what one wishes, but even if someone wanted to interpret "beat", it would be in self-defence since a woman cannot be forced to remain a wife (hence "fearing" her disobedience).

Even the Sunnis add lots of restrictions which can only undermine their claim.
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Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Post by iffo »

MesMorial wrote:
FYI the muslims who don't follow hadiths and are quran only even they laugh at you because even they say quran says one can hit wife. So basically you are alone in this.
What planet are you on? The only one I have seen (and I have been around) is Ahmed Bahgat. I have discussed certain translations with him, e.g. 16:44, and he is open to logic.
Nobody going to replace meanings of words like this as you are doing, its childish.
No replacement needed. It’s done. So please explain why I am wrong.
I suppose I should tell you to “grow up”.
I think you need to grow up, because you are the one doing childish stuff. Saying 'Black' actually means 'white'

Does Ahmed Bagaht represents all the quran only muslims in the world? BTW Ahmed is also a desperate muslim trying to hang on to his stupid religion some how. First he rejected hadiths because they were too ugly to deal with, rejecting whole Islamic history and Muhammad history, but problem was still not solved because quran also has problems and unacceptable statements, then he tried to give different meanings to different words of quran like you are doing.

FYI even Ahmed Bagat believes according to quran one can beat wife, so like I said you are totally alone on this.

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Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Post by darth »

MesMorial wrote: but even if someone wanted to interpret "beat", it would be in self-defence since a woman cannot be forced to remain a wife (hence "fearing" her disobedience).
.
:roflmao: The hole in the ground is getting deeper.
So now the husband is allowed to idrib'ing (beating) his wife in self defense in 4:34?

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Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Post by MesMorial »

I think you need to grow up, because you are the one doing childish stuff. Saying 'Black' actually means 'white'

Does Ahmed Bagaht represents all the quran only muslims in the world? BTW Ahmed is also a desperate muslim trying to hang on to his stupid religion some how. First he rejected hadiths because they were too ugly to deal with, rejecting whole Islamic history and Muhammad history, but problem was still not solved because quran also has problems and unacceptable statements, then he tried to give different meanings to different words of quran like you are doing.

FYI even Ahmed Bagat believes according to quran one can beat wife, so like I said you are totally alone on this.
Dear Iffo;

You seem to have an allergy to using your brain or reading my words.

I already said Ahmed Bahgat was the only Qur’an-alone Muslim who accepts “beat”, and his arguments are addressed anyway.

Please do not accuse me of being childish if you still have not grown up, like I told you to.

P.S. Recently I knew someone else much like you, who made useless comments all the time. They supported Qur'an-alone up 'til the last. Overnight they turned into a raging Sunni, whereas you turned into a disgruntled robot.



@ Darth;

Well only if you do the impossible and make it mean “beat”. Either way, your criticism has to be in a hole.
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Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Post by iffo »

MesMorial wrote:
I think you need to grow up, because you are the one doing childish stuff. Saying 'Black' actually means 'white'

Does Ahmed Bagaht represents all the quran only muslims in the world? BTW Ahmed is also a desperate muslim trying to hang on to his stupid religion some how. First he rejected hadiths because they were too ugly to deal with, rejecting whole Islamic history and Muhammad history, but problem was still not solved because quran also has problems and unacceptable statements, then he tried to give different meanings to different words of quran like you are doing.

FYI even Ahmed Bagat believes according to quran one can beat wife, so like I said you are totally alone on this.
Dear Iffo;

You seem to have an allergy to using your brain or reading my words.

I already said Ahmed Bahgat was the only Qur’an-alone Muslim who accepts “beat”, and his arguments are addressed anyway.

Please do not accuse me of being childish if you still have not grown up, like I told you to.

P.S. Recently I knew someone else much like you, who made useless comments all the time. They supported Qur'an-alone up 'til the last. Overnight they turned into a raging Sunni, whereas you turned into a disgruntled robot.



@ Darth;

Well only if you do the impossible and make it mean “beat”. Either way, your criticism has to be in a hole.
You can do as many personal attacks as you like because on the topic you are totally silent, because you know you been silenced. I am sure You know very well as everybody else does you are talking nonsense and acting like a stubborn/egocenteric kid.

Saying wife can not be hit, then saying only in self defense ........... are you a new prophet who has a different quran then rest of the world

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Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Post by MesMorial »

Well my last "personal attack" was pointing out that you repeatedly misread and twist my words.

You did it again by saying I changed my story, when I said IF you want it to mean "strike", it must be in self-defence. That does not translate to me changing my story, and I pointed this out to Darth.

If you think you are a part of any solution, I will agree when you stay silent.
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Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Post by iffo »

MesMorial wrote:Well my last "personal attack" was pointing out that you repeatedly misread and twist my words.

You did it again by saying I changed my story, when I said IF you want it to mean "strike", it must be in self-defence. That does not translate to me changing my story, and I pointed this out to Darth.

If you think you are a part of any solution, I will agree when you stay silent.
Does quran say anything about self-defense? Do you have different copy of quran than the rest of the world?
MesMorial
If you think you are a part of any solution, I will agree when you stay silent.
You think you providing a solution? you got to be kidding , if you convince one msulim to buy your this self-defense story or any other previous story I will give you gold medal.

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Does quran say anything about self-defense? Do you have different copy of quran than the rest of the world?
The nushooz would have to be such that beating was the only solution. “Nushooz” means to “rise up” or “rebel”, and as per 16:126, people must give as good as they get.

In Ahmed Bahgat’s case, he proposes a situation where the woman is off the boil, but then I do not think that does justice to the word. The solution is divorce, after trying out separation. Beating does not allow people to come to new understandings.
You think you providing a solution? you got to be kidding , if you convince one msulim to buy your this self-defense story or any other previous story I will give you gold medal.
But it is not my position. :)
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Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Post by yeezevee »

MesMorial wrote:
Does quran say anything about self-defense? Do you have different copy of quran than the rest of the world?
The nushooz would have to be such that beating was the only solution. “Nushooz” means to “rise up” or “rebel”, and as per 16:126, people must give as good as they get.

In Ahmed Bahgat’s case, he proposes a situation where the woman is off the boil, but then I do not think that does justice to the word. The solution is divorce, after trying out separation. Beating does not allow people to come to new understandings.
You think you providing a solution? you got to be kidding , if you convince one msulim to buy your this self-defense story or any other previous story I will give you gold medal.
But it is not my position. :)
"MesMorial", if you happen to have time please watch this..



Specially Question/answer session., it is actually a teaching material for all students on subjects like sociology, psychology, Religious philosophy and critical thinking..

with best wishes
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Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Post by iffo »

MesMorial wrote:
Does quran say anything about self-defense? Do you have different copy of quran than the rest of the world?
The nushooz would have to be such that beating was the only solution. “Nushooz” means to “rise up” or “rebel”, and as per 16:126, people must give as good as they get.

In Ahmed Bahgat’s case, he proposes a situation where the woman is off the boil, but then I do not think that does justice to the word. The solution is divorce, after trying out separation. Beating does not allow people to come to new understandings.
You think you providing a solution? you got to be kidding , if you convince one msulim to buy your this self-defense story or any other previous story I will give you gold medal.
But it is not my position. :)
Not a single person on the planet think hitting wife is for self defense except you, so indeed its only your position.

You are right beating does not bring people together, but we are not talking about what you think or I think. We talking about what Quran says. And Quran say you can hit wife to straighten her up. That is the straight forward answer

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Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Post by MesMorial »

Not a single person on the planet think hitting wife is for self defense except you, so indeed its only your position.
Yeezevee, you gave the video to the wrong person. I did think I said it was not my position.
You are right beating does not bring people together, but we are not talking about what you think or I think. We talking about what Quran says. And Quran say you can hit wife to straighten her up. That is the straight forward answer
The evidence from the Qur’an is against you, and besides, you assume power to control what people believe. There is no such thing as “Islam”. There is only what values people choose to acknowledge (that is why you are 2-dimensional). I have shown you my evidence, and you are unable to refute it. Therefore you have no right to accuse me of anything.

However, you have demonstrated to me that your grasp of debating and 3D thinking is too bad.

Cheers.
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Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Post by yeezevee »

MesMorial wrote:
Not a single person on the planet think hitting wife is for self defense except you, so indeed its only your position.
Yeezevee, you gave the video to the wrong person. I did think I said it was not my position.
You are right beating does not bring people together, but we are not talking about what you think or I think. We talking about what Quran says. And Quran say you can hit wife to straighten her up. That is the straight forward answer
The evidence from the Qur’an is against you, and besides, you assume power to control what people believe. There is no such thing as “Islam”. There is only what values people choose to acknowledge (that is why you are 2-dimensional). I have shown you my evidence, and you are unable to refute it. Therefore you have no right to accuse me of anything.

However, you have demonstrated to me that your grasp of debating and 3D thinking is too bad.

Cheers.
MesMorial, it is true that I suggested to you to watch that video., but rest of your post which you put in "Quotes" as if they are my words is NOT true dear Mesmorial

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Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

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yeezevee wrote:
MesMorial wrote:
Not a single person on the planet think hitting wife is for self defense except you, so indeed its only your position.
Yeezevee, you gave the video to the wrong person. I did think I said it was not my position.
You are right beating does not bring people together, but we are not talking about what you think or I think. We talking about what Quran says. And Quran say you can hit wife to straighten her up. That is the straight forward answer
The evidence from the Qur’an is against you, and besides, you assume power to control what people believe. There is no such thing as “Islam”. There is only what values people choose to acknowledge (that is why you are 2-dimensional). I have shown you my evidence, and you are unable to refute it. Therefore you have no right to accuse me of anything.

However, you have demonstrated to me that your grasp of debating and 3D thinking is too bad.

Cheers.
MesMorial, it is true that I suggested to you to watch that video., but rest of your post which you put in "Quotes" as if they are my words is NOT true dear Mesmorial
You mean the words I quoted as being from Iffo were not true. I did not specifiy his name as the addressee, but I treated them as his. I agree that they are not based on truth.
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Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Post by darth »

iffo wrote: Not a single person on the planet think hitting wife is for self defense except you, so indeed its only your position.
The idiot is unable to realize what a hole he has dug himself by starting with "idhrib" does not mean "beat" to "idhrib" means "beat" in self defense.
This is, I suppose, the closest he will willingly come to admitting that idhribunna means "beat them" without actually becoming an apostate.
Now he has to come up with spin to support his theory since 4:34 does not have "self defense".

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Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Post by iffo »

darth wrote:
iffo wrote: Not a single person on the planet think hitting wife is for self defense except you, so indeed its only your position.
The idiot is unable to realize what a hole he has dug himself by starting with "idhrib" does not mean "beat" to "idhrib" means "beat" in self defense.
This is, I suppose, the closest he will willingly come to admitting that idhribunna means "beat them" without actually becoming an apostate.
Now he has to come up with spin to support his theory since 4:34 does not have "self defense".
Agreed, he has been forced to become a troll. I used to think he was a sensible person but he is just making fun of himself ........ trying different things in desperation. Saying something (no beating allowed or self defense)not a single muslim agree with in last 1400 years.
He thinks he can talk BS and can get away with it.

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Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

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The idiot is unable to realize what a hole he has dug himself by starting with "idhrib" does not mean "beat" to "idhrib" means "beat" in self defense.
This is, I suppose, the closest he will willingly come to admitting that idhribunna means "beat them" without actually becoming an apostate.
Now he has to come up with spin to support his theory since 4:34 does not have "self defense".
But I only said that if you believed it meant "strike", it would have to be in the case of the nushooz being such that self-defence would be required.

Therefore your mockery says more about you, and Iffo agrees with anything that comes out the toilet.

And in the meantime, we can see what other thoughtful things you have to say.

...
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Iffo;
Agreed, he has been forced to become a troll. I used to think he was a sensible person but he is just making fun of himself ........ trying different things in desperation. Saying something (no beating allowed or self defense)not a single muslim agree with in last 1400 years.
He thinks he can talk BS and can get away with it.
Either you caught me red-handed with BS (and exposed me), or I caught you red-faced and funny. I am quite assured which.

Are you going to spend the remnants of your days on FFI breaking your teeth?
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Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Post by iffo »

MesMorial wrote:Iffo;
Agreed, he has been forced to become a troll. I used to think he was a sensible person but he is just making fun of himself ........ trying different things in desperation. Saying something (no beating allowed or self defense)not a single muslim agree with in last 1400 years.
He thinks he can talk BS and can get away with it.
Either you caught me red-handed with BS (and exposed me), or I caught you red-faced and funny. I am quite assured which.

Are you going to spend the remnants of your days on FFI breaking your teeth?

Catch you red handed in what? You been talking nonsense, with no sensibility, acting like a kid, there is nothing to catch red handed here. It's all out there in open....

In your own little world you pretending and thinking yourself to be very clever and scholarly . Where is your sensibility and matureness MM?

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Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Post by darth »

If you are beating up your wife because you "fear her disobedience", that is *not* self defense and only an idiot could claim that the beating is in self defense.

But, let us see the pearls of wisdom mess has come up with
- striking the air cannot actually strike the air , therefore it means set forth upon the air
- strike upon the neck is actually set forth upon the neck (even though one can actually strike the neck)
- if you translate as beat, then the beating is in self defense - that is the husband can beat the wife out of fear of her disobedience.
- idhrib has been wrongly translated as "beat" for centuries dating back to the time of mo (and the proof is that the messed up mess says so)


Did I miss anything?

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iffo wrote:
MesMorial wrote:Iffo;
Agreed, he has been forced to become a troll. I used to think he was a sensible person but he is just making fun of himself ........ trying different things in desperation. Saying something (no beating allowed or self defense)not a single muslim agree with in last 1400 years.
He thinks he can talk BS and can get away with it.
Either you caught me red-handed with BS (and exposed me), or I caught you red-faced and funny. I am quite assured which.

Are you going to spend the remnants of your days on FFI breaking your teeth?

Catch you red handed in what? You been talking nonsense, with no sensibility, acting like a kid, there is nothing to catch red handed here. It's all out there in open....

In your own little world you pretending and thinking yourself to be very clever and scholarly . Where is your sensibility and matureness MM?
Maybe you missed the whole thread, here it is again:

“Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.” (4:34)


The problem comes from the word “idribuhunna” which has traditionally been translated as “beat them.” The root of this word is actually “DaRaBa”. If you look at any Arabic dictionary, you will find a long list of meanings ascribed to it. It has so many different meanings that we can find numerous uses in the Qur’an:

To travel, to get out: 3:156; 4:101; 38:44; 73:20; 2:273
To strike: 2:60,73; 7:160; 8:12; 20:77; 24:31; 26:63; 37:93; 47:4
To beat: 8:50; 47:27
To set up: 43:58; 57:13
To give (examples): 14:24,45; 16:75,76,112; 18:32,45; 24:35; 30:28,58; 36:78; 39:27,29; 43:17; 59:21; 66:10,11
To take away, to ignore: 43:5
To condemn: 2:61
To seal, to draw over: 18:11
To cover: 24:31
To explain: 13:17

Notice all of the above involve “setting forth”. The only reason “DaRaBa” can mean “strike” is through inference. For instance, in 8:12, angels are instructed to “strike” above the necks. In order to strike, one must “set forth” (a weapon). Dictionaries list a possible meaning of “strike” because “setting forth” can mean “strike” depending on the context. If someone swings in thin-air, they are “striking” air although their intention was simply to “set forth” in air. Dictionaries also list a meaning of “shoot”, reinforcing this point.

A husband’s wife will not be able to “obey” him (“lay to rest his fears”) if he hospitalises her. If he does not “beat her” enough, then she will either laugh at him (enticing him to continue) or obviously go for a divorce. There is no threshold set, thus the word cannot mean “beat”.

The meanings of “going abroad from”, set them forth (e.g. as an example) or “set an example to” are compatible if we take these instructions with the others. All uses of the word in the Qur’an can be understood as “set forth”, though context allows us to infer a more direct (but never pure) meaning. 4:34 does not provide context whereby a man can strike a woman with something, or anywhere on her body.


“…thus does Allah beat (yadribu) truth and falsehood…” (13:17)


“…thus does Allah set forth truth and falsehood…” (13:17)


Another example of the mistranslation of “DaRaBa” can be found in 38:44. Almost every translation injects a silly story to justify their rendering of the passage. Here is how Yusuf Ali translates the first portion of this ayah, which is about Job:

“And take in the hand a little grass, and strike therewith: and break not (the oath).” (38:44)


Yusuf Ali in the footnote narrates the following traditional story: “He (Job) must have said in his haste to the woman that he would beat her: he is asked now to correct her with only a wisp of grass, to show that he was gentle and humble as well as patient and constant.”

However, without assuming the existence of this strange, male-viewpointed story (which has no other reference in the Qur’an), we can translate the ayah henceforth:


“Take in your hand a bunch and set forth with it, and do not break your oath; surely We found him patient; most excellent the servant! Surely he was frequent in returning (to Allah).” (38:44)


(The “bunch” would most likely refer to servants as in “those whom your right hands possess” (4:3)).

One final example:


“O you who believe! when you go abroad (darabtum)in Allah’s way, make investigation, and do not say to anyone who offers you peace: You are not a believer. Do you seek goods of this world’s life! But with Allah there are abundant gains; you too were such before, then Allah conferred a benefit on you; therefore make investigation; surely Allah is aware of what you do.” (4:94)


Note how in Sura 4 there is used “daraba” (4:34 and “darabtum” (4:94), which are derived from the same root. The words are in the same Sura, indicating that “daraba” in 4:34 means to desert or leave since that is what its derived word conveys in 4:94.

According to 58:11, the word “nushuz” used in 4:34 can refer to a woman “rising up” (rebelling) against her husband. This word is used in 4:128 where a man is rebelling against the rights of his wife (although in context dowry, it is a general principle). A woman’s option if she experiences “nushuz” is to enact an agreement (e.g. separation or a form of reconciliation). In 2:228, Allah allows women similar rights to men, and the asymmetry between a man’s options and a woman’s options (4:34 and 4:128) (if “idhrib” is read as “strike”) would contradict this.

The Qur’an says to do three things, these things being admonishment, separation in beds and striking them (?). These would have to be as a preventative, since the verse says to only do it if they FEAR ill-conduct (maybe based on past experiences). Thus the husband would be asking his wife to provide proof that she was not being disobedient, or else beat the truth out of her.

Now physically striking one’s wife based on unproved reasons runs counter to the need for proof (e.g. 24:4).

However, suspicion itself results in marital dissonance, which is why the ultimate penalty of setting them forth works perfectly. 4:35 continues 4:34 by stating that if the HUSBAND does not take the appropriate action (i.e. setting forth his wife) of 4:34, SOMEBODY ELSE should appoint an arbiter. The separation (third step) in 4:34 is not divorce, since a woman should not be set forth during the four-month deciding period (65:6). The third step in 4:34 is an attempt to prevent divorce, and is a cooling-off period.

Now if someone interprets 4:34 to mean “strike” the wife, this begs the question of how many times, and what if they do not obey? How can an outsider only FEAR separation (4:35) if a man is abusing his wife? Surely the woman would have no reason to even WANT to remain with him (i.e. there will be a definite divorce, and not one to be feared!)!

Thus a Muslim really has no choice but to reject “wife-beating”.

Some will argue that the word for “separate from them” is “IdribuANhun” and not “Idribuhun”
as used in 4:34. This is refuted by the fact the prefix “AN” is not used in 14:24, even though it means “set forth”.

Some will argue that the word means “set forth” when applied to non-human things, but “strike” when applied to humans. This is a made-up excuse, and is refuted by 24:31 where the setting forth of covers is done on the chests.


“And one of His signs is that He created mates for you from yourselves that you may find rest in them, and He put between you love and compassion; most surely there are signs in this for a people who reflect.” (30:21)


Further considerations when interpreting as “strike”:

• The word idriboo is formed from one of the most multiple meaning and diversely used words (DaRaBa), but the base-meaning is “set forth”.
• There is not one clear occurrence of this word meaning “beat” without “setting forth” an object.
• No Classical Arabic (the language the Qur’an is written in) dictionary gives the meaning of “beat” in a comparable example, and none references 4:34 at all.
• This understanding causes internal contradictions within the Qur’an, and this is also probably why no commentator, past or present, uses the Qur’an itself to justify this view.
• There is no consensus amongst traditional commentators on the origin and interpretation of this verse, except on perhaps basic points.
• If “beat/strike” is chosen, it would cause inconsistencies amongst traditional hadith narrations and Classical Arabic dictionaries, which show a variance in view.
• It contradicts the alleged reaction of Muhammad to wife beating, in which he is reported to have found it unjust and said woman have the right to fight back. The traditional story claims he was overruled by 4:34.

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