Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

The rights of, or lack thereof, and problems faced by women in Islam
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MesMorial
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Post by MesMorial »

It seems the grub is back.
You are kidding, right? 4:34 is what we are discussing. It is you that claims idribuhanna is "separate". You cannot use 4.34 as an example for itself. Talk of logical fallacies.
Yes if you look at the context of the above reply, you will find it is you who is confused. 4:34 talks of general separation, which can be permanent divorce or (logically if you read it) temporary.
What is the "same" principle? This verse gives directions to deal with a wife that he is suspicious about before any separation (the only kind in the quran is that initiated by the talaq)
Well it may be difficult to reply because you have muddled yourself. The instructions are to be performed all at once, especially if the woman does not improve after admonishment. They are expressed to be performed all at once, so your point about chronology is off.
mess, the quran does not tell the wife to idribuhanna. Anything else that you suppose that she can do is again speculation. All that the verse allows her is to enter some sort of agreement.
But separation would be the result of agreement. Again, the word “agreement” is general, being used to cover the case of dowry which is the context. Besides, women have the same marital rights as men (2:228).
(That is 8:12 actually). The angels are asked to "strike" them above the neck. You are on very flimsy ground. You translate it to set forth and then claim that set forth means "hit". Actually, the word is "strike" and is translated correctly as such.
Set forth above the neck, which becomes “strike” in the context. If I set forth a stick upon something, I strike it with a stick.
Mess, I am a purist. Let us stick to what the quran actually says, not what you wish it said.
“Puerile” would be a better adjective for you.
The word by word translation on this site - wa-iḍ'ribūhunna = and [finally] strike them.
In arabic dictionary إضرب is translated as beat.
Incidentally, the word is used for strike many times in the quran
Yes, and Originally it was “set forth”, but it was later changed because someone wanted it to mean “beat” even though it is always used to mean “set forth”. I looked through all usages of it, and “set forth” works even when they prefer “strike”.

Please tell me the details of beating one’s wife in the Qur’an, since the Qur’an is detailed. I asked this before, but you ignored me.

Good luck.
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Post by sum »

I have been posting on FFI for several years. During this times there have been innumerable discussions and disagreements on what so many verses mean despite the Koran claiming to be clear. If we still can not agree after 1400yrs it proves that the Koran is not clear at all. This, in turn, shows Allah to be intellectually deficient or more likely non-existant and that the Koran is purely manmade.

Only intense programming of the mind, the elimination of critical thinking and the instilling of fear both in this life and the next keep Islam afloat. It is blindingly obvious that there is absolutely nothing divine about the Koran or that Muhammad was a prophet of a merciful and compassionate god.

sum

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MesMorial
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Post by MesMorial »

sum wrote:I have been posting on FFI for several years. During this times there have been innumerable discussions and disagreements on what so many verses mean despite the Koran claiming to be clear. If we still can not agree after 1400yrs it proves that the Koran is not clear at all. This, in turn, shows Allah to be intellectually deficient or more likely non-existant and that the Koran is purely manmade.

Only intense programming of the mind, the elimination of critical thinking and the instilling of fear both in this life and the next keep Islam afloat. It is blindingly obvious that there is absolutely nothing divine about the Koran or that Muhammad was a prophet of a merciful and compassionate god.

sum
Hmmmmm
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darth
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Post by darth »

MesMorial wrote:
Yes if you look at the context of the above reply, you will find it is you who is confused. 4:34 talks of general separation, which can be permanent divorce or (logically if you read it) temporary.
Lesson ! - You cannot show 4:34 as proof for 4:34. That is a logical fallacy.

The point you are making is that idhribuhanna in 4:34 means separate. I am contending that . I asked you to show places in the quran where divorce and separation are talked about where idhriuhanna is used and you are pointing to 4:34 which is the verse under discussion. That is how flimsy your argument is.

Bottom line - idhrib is used in plenty of places as "strike". The arabic dictionary translates idhrib it to "strike/beat"

You have nothing to support your case except some idiotic spin which you cannot even defend logically.

Well it may be difficult to reply because you have muddled yourself. The instructions are to be performed all at once, especially if the woman does not improve after admonishment. They are expressed to be performed all at once, so your point about chronology is off.
Since separation is not talked about at all in this verse, chronology does not matter. By literal translation, a man can advice/forsake in bed/beat his wife all at the same time or one after the other. But he is to take no further action if she becomes obedient. The next verse makes clear what the further action is - third party counseling and possibly separation and divorce.

But separation would be the result of agreement. Again, the word “agreement” is general, being used to cover the case of dowry which is the context. Besides, women have the same marital rights as men (2:228).
No, they don't. As per 2:228 men have rights above women. Again, I ask you where is a wife asked to ibdrib her husband?
Set forth above the neck, which becomes “strike” in the context. If I set forth a stick upon something, I strike it with a stick.
Soon you will be translating 4:34 as "set forth upon his wife" which means " beat his wife". Good job. You are getting there. :roflmao:

“Puerile” would be a better adjective for you.
Coming from the guy who provides 4:34 as a proof for 4:34, I will take it as a compliment.

Yes, and Originally it was “set forth”, but it was later changed because someone wanted it to mean “beat” even though it is always used to mean “set forth”. I looked through all usages of it, and “set forth” works even when they prefer “strike”.
What rubbish? Orginally when? In mo's time? Do you have the arabic language structure dating back to mo's time to prove it.
Give it up, mess. idhrib has always been translated as strike/beat. Get your head out of your arse.

Please tell me the details of beating one’s wife in the Qur’an, since the Qur’an is detailed. I asked this before, but you ignored me.
.
Beating is beating. What details do you want? Quran does not specify the type of beating or the number of beating etc. That is up to the husband to exercise as his right (one of those rights he has above women)
(And BTW, it is your contention that quran is detailed. We have already shown it is not on the other thread with the elephants and abu lahab)

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MesMorial
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Post by MesMorial »

Dear Darth, you don't mind if I yawn?
Bottom line - idhrib is used in plenty of places as "strike". The arabic dictionary translates idhrib it to "strike/beat"

You have nothing to support your case except some idiotic spin which you cannot even defend logically.
Here's your answer:

If I swing a stick in air, I am striking air. However, if I am not intending to strike air, I am setting the stick forth in air.

That is why the dictionaries INFER "strike", since to set somethign forth also includes setting it forth in such a way as to "strike". What matters is the intention, but you are one defending using women as base-ball bats.

***

You prefer a tit-for-tat approach because you have no substance, and so I will ignore the debris of your contextual distortions. E.g. your first “tit” cannot possibly be understood - the conversation evolves according to what you THINK I am saying.

So let me give you the lesson (again):

The word used for “strike” can only mean “strike” through inference. This is because “striking” involves “setting forth”, and obviously this has to be done with something. On innumerable occasions the Qur’an uses the word as “set forth” alone. There is no indication in 4:34 to suggest your inference is valid.

There are not enough details in the Qur’an to explain beating a wife, unless you say that it is 100 hidings. This is refuted by the fact that accusations of a spouse have a different process.

Wife-beating does not improve anything, because it does not address the viewpoint of the woman. If she is beaten, it is because she is resolute. If she is resolute, beating will result in nothing except divorce. She may laugh if he is afraid to be a raging animal, or she may go to hospital.

Thus you have been debunked.

Now, all I have to do is prove that “setting forth” one’s wife makes sense:

If the man fears rebellion, he should express his concerns. If his fears are not alleviated, he should separate her at night. If still his fears are not alleviated, he cannot physically harm her because firstly it is only a FEAR, and even if it were proved, he should decide upon separation. If a man and woman are not getting along, the solution is to divorce. A man is not allowed prolong the inevitable (4:19, 65:6). The separation referred to in 4:34 (the third step) is not divorce, but rather a cooling-off period (like sending someone to their room). It is not divorce because women are not to go forth during the 4-month divorce period (65:1).

If separation does not improve the situation, they should divorce. This is a last resort, and mediation is advised so that they can come to some agreement (e.g. 4:128). This may lead to the separation (third step) of 4:34. If the couple does not do this, someone else may do it for them (4:35).
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Post by iffo »

@MesMorial

No MesMorial it does not mean hitting the wife with rose petals and than giving her a Kiss. :D I hope this make you happy. You think people are stupid that they will take your excuses seriously. Why did the stupid Allah wrote a book that for 1400 years people could not understand it and got it all wrong. And this was suppose to be his final message.

MesMorial I encourage you to leave this painful life of covering up Islam's dirty laundry and making excuse, be honest to yourself and leave Islam.

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Post by MesMorial »

iffo wrote:@MesMorial

No MesMorial it does not mean hitting the wife with rose petals and than giving her a Kiss. :D I hope this make you happy. You think people are stupid that they will take your excuses seriously. Why did the stupid Allah wrote a book that for 1400 years people could not understand it and got it all wrong. And this was suppose to be his final message.

MesMorial I encourage you to leave this painful life of covering up Islam's dirty laundry and making excuse, be honest to yourself and leave Islam.
Iffo;

I find your logic, credentials, attitude, IQ and knowledge of what we are talking about iffy.
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As for the pain, it belongs to the people like you who uphold a flawed approach. Do not worry about me, since there is nothing you can pick on. It is why I'm still here.

...

Cheers.
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Post by sum »

Hello MesMorial

Your quote -
If I swing a stick in air, I am striking air. However, if I am not intending to strike air, I am setting the stick forth in air.

There is very little logic in your quote. The expression "setting a stick forth" in air is never used - what does it mean? The word "strike" normally means impact and a brief meeting of the striker and the stricken. This does not apply to a stick moving through air. If you do not intend "to strike air" you are still swinging the stick and not "striking" air. I am not sure what you mean by "setting the stick forth in the air". It is still swinging or throwing.

I think that you should have chosen a better analogy.

sum

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Post by iffo »

MesMorial wrote:
iffo wrote:@MesMorial

No MesMorial it does not mean hitting the wife with rose petals and than giving her a Kiss. :D I hope this make you happy. You think people are stupid that they will take your excuses seriously. Why did the stupid Allah wrote a book that for 1400 years people could not understand it and got it all wrong. And this was suppose to be his final message.

MesMorial I encourage you to leave this painful life of covering up Islam's dirty laundry and making excuse, be honest to yourself and leave Islam.
Iffo;

I find your logic, credentials, attitude, IQ and knowledge of what we are talking about iffy.
Is this the best answer you could come up with?
I am not surprised I have seen Muslims playing these games my whole life. Never Muslim have an answer but just games. I was also part of it. You will agree with me here that
Dishonesty is in Muslim blood when it comes to defending Islam.

Indeed you are in constant pain, constant pain of defending a stupid book written by Muhammad. Now can you tell me what you had to gain by lying publicly and giving different meanings to words. You think you will get away with it, it tells me a lot about your IQ and how honest you are.

For last 1400 years muslims say husband can hit his wife and now comes
Poor Mesmorial who believes in his heart Its wrong to hit wife trying to change Quran according to his liking. For 1400 years all Muslim scholars were wrong.

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Post by darth »

MesMorial wrote:Dear Darth, you don't mind if I yawn?
Of course not, mess. Especially when the rest of us are laughing at your idiotic response.
MesMorial wrote: If I swing a stick in air, I am striking air. However, if I am not intending to strike air, I am setting the stick forth in air.
:roflmao: Hilarious.
MesMorial wrote: That is why the dictionaries INFER "strike", since to set somethign forth also includes setting it forth in such a way as to "strike". What matters is the intention, but you are one defending using women as base-ball bats.
I don't know which arabic dictionary you are referring. idhrib is certainly translated as "beat/strike/shoot" etc. not "set forth" (whatever you think it means.)
MesMorial wrote: You prefer a tit-for-tat approach because you have no substance, and so I will ignore the debris of your contextual distortions. E.g. your first “tit” cannot possibly be understood - the conversation evolves according to what you THINK I am saying.
:roflmao: I think you are drunk even though you are a muslim.
MesMorial wrote:
Wife-beating does not improve anything, because it does not address the viewpoint of the woman. If she is beaten, it is because she is resolute. If she is resolute, beating will result in nothing except divorce. She may laugh if he is afraid to be a raging animal, or she may go to hospital.

Thus you have been debunked.
??? The point of this exercise is what quran says. We are not contending that wife beating is wrong. The difference is that you believe that quran cannot be saying what it is saying because it goes against your moral sense. I am saying that the quran is recommending it, something that we all acknowledge as wrong. What I have on my side is the literal translation. What you have is gibberish such as "striking the air is not striking the air"
MesMorial wrote: Now, all I have to do is prove that “setting forth” one’s wife makes sense:
Separation may make sense. But the quran does not have this sense. It uses the word "beat". Ask yourself why it does not use benign words if it means "separate". Why does it use the word that means beat and has been used to mean beat/strike in plenty of verses in the quran?


Basically, mess, you cannot translate quran into what you wish it said. That is dishonest.

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Post by Chiclets »

iffo wrote:Dishonesty is in Muslim blood when it comes to defending Islam.
That was uncalled for iffo, never forget we are all the same species.

Blame the religious indoctrination people are endured to, not anything else iffo.
gupsfu wrote:When someone uses the "taken out of context" argument without explaining what it's really supposed to mean, you know he's lying.
Muslims are so secure in their faith that they need to kill those who don’t share it.

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Post by sum »

Hello Chiclets

I think that both you and iffo are saying the same thing. I assume that iffo made his statement knowing full well that muslims are significantly indoctrinated and that it leads to "warping of the truth" if it helps when defending Islam.

sum

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Post by iffo »

Chiclets wrote:
iffo wrote:Dishonesty is in Muslim blood when it comes to defending Islam.
That was uncalled for iffo, never forget we are all the same species.

Blame the religious indoctrination people are endured to, not anything else iffo.
I said when it comes to defending Islam not that they are dishonest period. But you are right it was rough, should not have said that, and I think everybody becomes dishonest not only Muslims when it comes to defending religion. That's the only way one can defend them.

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Post by MesMorial »

Sum;

You are assuming the word means “strike”, when I was explaining why it can only be inferred to mean “strike”.

You might like to read it again.


@ Iffo;

Well the pain you feel is in your words. It was the best answer I was going to offer somebody who clearly had not read the discussion.

The glitch in your intelligence is evident that you still think I am defending Islam. All I am doing is identifying why your approach is pointless. There is a big difference, and it is quite easy for me. If I do not fit into any category of your bandwagon, you just choose for me.

I do not know why you would talk to me.


@ Chiclets;

Right now, he can talk from anger at best. Once he enjoyed surfing Islam, not he is on another wave. What he says means nothing.


@ Darth;

The fact that the word can mean “shoot” should answer you. Is that the best you have?


***


No-one will mind if I say you are losers in this thread (sum, iffo, darth)? Don't take it personally; I mean it in a literal sense.

Now if iffo would like to nurse his wounds, he is welcome to bleed the venom from his veins (in the form of his bully-boy wisdom).

Cheers.
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Post by iffo »

MesMorial
@ Iffo;

Well the pain you feel is in your words. It was the best answer I was going to offer somebody who clearly had not read the discussion.

The glitch in your intelligence is evident that you still think I am defending Islam. All I am doing is identifying why your approach is pointless. There is a big difference, and it is quite easy for me. If I do not fit into any category of your bandwagon, you just choose for me.
My approach is ' brutal honesty'. Which you are definitely not aware of. I say things the way they are rather than lying to myself and others and changing the meaning of the words. By doing this not only non-muslims are laughing at you but even all the muslims laugh at you. Sugar coating quran is your approach, putting all the honesty aside.

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My approach is ' brutal honesty'. Which you are definitely not aware of.
To be brutally honest, the Qur’an is very brutal against people who use ahadith.

I say things the way they are rather than lying to myself and others and changing the meaning of the words. By doing this not only non-muslims are laughing at you but even all the muslims laugh at you. Sugar coating quran is your approach, putting all the honesty aside.
My approach is not to savage Islam according to my insecurities, but rather to replace what we already recognise as bad with an attitude of progressiveness. Everything you hope to achieve is in my approach, but my approach is better because it does not rely upon emotion. In fact Islam is irrelevant to my broad approach; it is just in the way.

I have provided reasons why it should not be interpreted “beat”, but denial is your band-aid.

The only non-Muslims laughing are those who have never actually debated. Muslims who follow ahadith are not Muslims, but I note how you take their opinion as important. They laugh for the same reason that you try to laugh. They always stop.

You should do more research before speaking (or is it that you don’t speak, you just laugh?).

Cheers.
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Post by MesMorial »

I am aware that those with messed-up priorities do not get along with me, because if we ever got to the point, they would have nothing to talk about/hate.

They will filter themselves.
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Post by iffo »

MesMorial wrote:
My approach is ' brutal honesty'. Which you are definitely not aware of.
To be brutally honest, the Qur’an is very brutal against people who use ahadith.

I say things the way they are rather than lying to myself and others and changing the meaning of the words. By doing this not only non-muslims are laughing at you but even all the muslims laugh at you. Sugar coating quran is your approach, putting all the honesty aside.
My approach is not to savage Islam according to my insecurities, but rather to replace what we already recognise as bad with an attitude of progressiveness. Everything you hope to achieve is in my approach, but my approach is better because it does not rely upon emotion. In fact Islam is irrelevant to my broad approach; it is just in the way.

I have provided reasons why it should not be interpreted “beat”, but denial is your band-aid.

The only non-Muslims laughing are those who have never actually debated. Muslims who follow ahadith are not Muslims, but I note how you take their opinion as important. They laugh for the same reason that you try to laugh. They always stop.

You should do more research before speaking (or is it that you don’t speak, you just laugh?).

Cheers.

FYI the muslims who don't follow hadiths and are quran only even they laugh at you because even they say quran says one can hit wife. So basically you are alone in this.
MesMorial


but rather to replace what we already recognise as bad with an attitude of progressiveness.
Nobody going to replace meanings of words like this as you are doing, its childish.

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FYI the muslims who don't follow hadiths and are quran only even they laugh at you because even they say quran says one can hit wife. So basically you are alone in this.
What planet are you on? The only one I have seen (and I have been around) is Ahmed Bahgat. I have discussed certain translations with him, e.g. 16:44, and he is open to logic.
Nobody going to replace meanings of words like this as you are doing, its childish.
No replacement needed. It’s done. So please explain why I am wrong.

I suppose I should tell you to “grow up”.
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