Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

The rights of, or lack thereof, and problems faced by women in Islam
darth
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Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Post by darth »

Dhivehi Hanguraama wrote:There are clear differences between the two genders, with regard to intellectual aptitude and emotional stability. A woman must not feel ashamed that her husband is privileged with the right of (lightly) beating her once certain conditions are met but must praise Allah, that he has given her a caretaker that will correct her when she errs; for without that correction, she would most certainly be in more immediate danger of the torment of the hellfire.
:roflmao: Mess, where are you? The truth coming from an idiot's (i.e. a true muslim's) mouth. In other words according to this muslim, beating up a woman is good for her. Don't you have any response? But then, what can you say? According to you if it is "beat" in this verse it is self defense because the husband "fear" her disobedience.

Divehi, let us understand your philosophy a little little further - you suggest that it is okay to beat the female because she is inferior to you in intellectual and emotional stability? What about your parents? Can you beat them up if you consider them inferior to you in intellect and emotional stability? What about your friend? Give us a list of all the people who you can beat up because you perceive them unequal to you in intellect and emotional stability?
Also, if you are in the habit of beating up people who you consider as inferior, what do you think about your own intellect and emotional stability?

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Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Post by iffo »

darth wrote:
Dhivehi Hanguraama wrote:There are clear differences between the two genders, with regard to intellectual aptitude and emotional stability. A woman must not feel ashamed that her husband is privileged with the right of (lightly) beating her once certain conditions are met but must praise Allah, that he has given her a caretaker that will correct her when she errs; for without that correction, she would most certainly be in more immediate danger of the torment of the hellfire.
:roflmao: Mess, where are you? The truth coming from an idiot's (i.e. a true muslim's) mouth. In other words according to this muslim, beating up a woman is good for her. Don't you have any response? But then, what can you say? According to you if it is "beat" in this verse it is self defense because the husband "fear" her disobedience.

Divehi, let us understand your philosophy a little little further - you suggest that it is okay to beat the female because she is inferior to you in intellectual and emotional stability? What about your parents? Can you beat them up if you consider them inferior to you in intellect and emotional stability? What about your friend? Give us a list of all the people who you can beat up because you perceive them unequal to you in intellect and emotional stability?
Also, if you are in the habit of beating up people who you consider as inferior, what do you think about your own intellect and emotional stability?

I have a feeling Dhivehi Hanguraama is a female ............. still advocating the beating .

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Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Post by katlike »

Dhivehi Hanguraama wrote:There are clear differences between the two genders, with regard to intellectual aptitude and emotional stability. A woman must not feel ashamed that her husband is privileged with the right of (lightly) beating her once certain conditions are met but must praise Allah, that he has given her a caretaker that will correct her when she errs;
I need to know specific, non cultural differences between the two genders, with regard to intellectual aptitude and emotional stability. Can anyone give me any examples? And what is up with using the term lightly in parenthesis? The koran does not use the term "lightly" at all so why are you trying to use it Dhivehi Hanguraama? What does the koran say about adding words to the word of allah? So you and others adding the word lightly...you might need to rethink that in an islamic way. I am not even worried about you going to hell for adding to the koran even when it is pretty clear your going to hell for doing so, I am more concerned with you thinking because I have a vagina I have an insufficient intellect. I am not emotionally unstable because I have breasts and a vagina. Sweety, I am way smarter than you, and way more emotionally secure than you without islam and with a vagina. I don't need a penis or a koran to catapult me. You have to wonder about yourself that you need both to get by.
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piscohot
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Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Post by piscohot »

MesMorial wrote:Darth;
If you are beating up your wife because you "fear her disobedience", that is *not* self defense and only an idiot could claim that the beating is in self defense.
If it is causing you to fear, you must defend yourself.

Cheers.
and you defend your "fear" by beating her???

you must be kidding, MesMorial.

you're not??!!! :shock:
Quran miracle (16:69) : Bees eat ALL fruits
Quran miracle (27:18) : an ant SAID, "O ants, enter your dwellings that you not be crushed by Solomon and his soldiers while they perceive not."

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Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Post by iffo »

MM has been 100% debunked and exposed here. He ran out of sensible defense, he just about tried everything.

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MesMorial
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Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Post by MesMorial »

Sten wrote:
iffo wrote:Now I ask why the wise all knowing god will use the word in his final message that has multiple meaning. What is he trying achieve here, confuse the people? Another very dumb thing to do.
That's a good point.
This was already addressed in my post by the fact that every usage involved "setting something forth".
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MesMorial
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Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Post by MesMorial »

katlike wrote:
Dhivehi Hanguraama wrote:There are clear differences between the two genders, with regard to intellectual aptitude and emotional stability. A woman must not feel ashamed that her husband is privileged with the right of (lightly) beating her once certain conditions are met but must praise Allah, that he has given her a caretaker that will correct her when she errs;
I need to know specific, non cultural differences between the two genders, with regard to intellectual aptitude and emotional stability. Can anyone give me any examples? And what is up with using the term lightly in parenthesis? The koran does not use the term "lightly" at all so why are you trying to use it Dhivehi Hanguraama? What does the koran say about adding words to the word of allah? So you and others adding the word lightly...you might need to rethink that in an islamic way. I am not even worried about you going to hell for adding to the koran even when it is pretty clear your going to hell for doing so, I am more concerned with you thinking because I have a vagina I have an insufficient intellect. I am not emotionally unstable because I have breasts and a vagina. Sweety, I am way smarter than you, and way more emotionally secure than you without islam and with a vagina. I don't need a penis or a koran to catapult me. You have to wonder about yourself that you need both to get by.
Well said.


@ Iffo;

So was that your idea of 100% debunking me? And why do you use bolognaise logic?
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MesMorial
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Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Post by MesMorial »

A fact you cannot deal with: If you use the Qur'an alone (as it conclusively instructs), you are forced to accept "set forth".

Another fact is that tradition supports a soft "beating" as a last resort.
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Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Post by sum »

Hello MesMorial

Do you support any ahadith that do not conflict with the Koran? This is the position of Ahmed Bahgat.

sum

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Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Post by iffo »

MesMorial wrote:
Sten wrote:
iffo wrote:Now I ask why the wise all knowing god will use the word in his final message that has multiple meaning. What is he trying achieve here, confuse the people? Another very dumb thing to do.
That's a good point.
This was already addressed in my post by the fact that every usage involved "setting something forth".
Your answer has been rejected .

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Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Post by MesMorial »

Do you support any ahadith that do not conflict with the Koran? This is the position of Ahmed Bahgat.
The Qur’an is not detailed enough for wife-beating, thus it contradicts it. If you can explain to me the process etc., I could reconsider it. For instance, the ahadith are wrong, because they add a word and contradict each other. They thus cannot even come into it.


Iffo;

Only counter-logic can reject it. As I told you, you would not survive outside this forum. I do not know why you think that I could take you seriously.
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darth
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Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Post by darth »

MesMorial wrote: The Qur’an is not detailed enough for wife-beating, thus it contradicts it. If you can explain to me the process etc., I could reconsider it.
Mess's current position - quran does not give any details on beating (idhribuhanna). Therefore it contradicts itself and cannot mean beating.

By the same logic - quran does not give details in 111 regarding abu lahab's crimes. Therefore it contradicts itself.
quran does not give details in 105 about the companions of the elephant. Therefore it contradicts itself.
It accuses people of having changed books and lying without providing details on how the books were changed or lied about, therefore it contradicts itself.

We can go on. Good job, mess. The entire quran is one contradictory mess. :roflmao:

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Post by MesMorial »

darth wrote:
MesMorial wrote: The Qur’an is not detailed enough for wife-beating, thus it contradicts it. If you can explain to me the process etc., I could reconsider it.
Mess's current position - quran does not give any details on beating (idhribuhanna). Therefore it contradicts itself and cannot mean beating.

By the same logic - quran does not give details in 111 regarding abu lahab's crimes. Therefore it contradicts itself.
quran does not give details in 105 about the companions of the elephant. Therefore it contradicts itself.
It accuses people of having changed books and lying without providing details on how the books were changed or lied about, therefore it contradicts itself.

We can go on. Good job, mess. The entire quran is one contradictory mess. :roflmao:
The other examples I effectively addressed, and the explanations are "published".

Find the word "softly" and confirm the ahadith with the Qur'an, then you will have a case. At present, your viewpoint is logically untenable. You should be acknowledging this and using it. Instead, you react to the threat against your status quo.

It must be fun to sit in this forum, until it begins to feel pointless.
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Post by iffo »

MesMorial wrote:
Do you support any ahadith that do not conflict with the Koran? This is the position of Ahmed Bahgat.
The Qur’an is not detailed enough for wife-beating, thus it contradicts it. If you can explain to me the process etc., I could reconsider it. For instance, the ahadith are wrong, because they add a word and contradict each other. They thus cannot even come into it.


Iffo;

Only counter-logic can reject it. As I told you, you would not survive outside this forum. I do not know why you think that I could take you seriously.
Whether you take it seriously or not does not matter, the fact is you have been debunked and made speechless here, other than your this logic logic rant which impress no one you have nothing to say. You are the most illogical person here. When you can tell me why the wise god will use a word with 10 different meaning instead of saying things clearly let me know, till then you are like considered yourself 100% refuted.
Last edited by iffo on Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:25 am, edited 4 times in total.

darth
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Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Post by darth »

MesMorial wrote:
The other examples I effectively addressed, and the explanations are "published".
Here is another lesson for you - just because something is "published" does not mean that said published item is true or accepted as true. Also "publishing" something does not mean anyone has been convinced by your logic (or lack thereof).

As we have seen idhrib is used many times in quran as "strike". Thus using some stray meaning of the word to argue that the word means something else can hardly convince anybody - especially when the new meaning make absolutely no sense and only end up with you striking the air.

Same thing with all your arguments so far whether it is 111 or 105 or any other.
MesMorial wrote: Find the word "softly" and confirm the ahadith with the Qur'an, then you will have a case.
Sorry, there is no "softly" in 4:34. That the hadith tries to soften the quran does not change the meaning of the word in the quran.

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Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Post by MesMorial »

Darth;
Here is another lesson for you - just because something is "published" does not mean that said published item is true or accepted as true. Also "publishing" something does not mean anyone has been convinced by your logic (or lack thereof).
But they survived your objections.
Same thing with all your arguments so far whether it is 111 or 105 or any other.
Same too.
As we have seen idhrib is used many times in quran as "strike". Thus using some stray meaning of the word to argue that the word means something else can hardly convince anybody - especially when the new meaning make absolutely no sense and only end up with you striking the air.
Because “strike” was inferred. Unfortunately the word never actually means "strike", as can be seen from this sample:


“And [recall] when Moses prayed for water for his people, so We said, "Set forth (idhrib) (by hitting) with your staff the stone."” (2:6o) Notice where hitting is involved, an weapon is identified.

“And they were set forth (duribat) with humiliation and poverty and returned with anger” (2:61) (commonly translated as “strike”)

“So, We said, "Set forth (idhrib) (moving or bringing to life by hitting) the slain man with part of it." Thus does Allah bring the dead to life, and He shows you His signs that you might reason.” (2:73) Notice where hitting is involved, a weapon is identified.

“Abasement is set forth over them (duribat) wherever they are found…” (3:112)

“Men are in charge of women by
what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and set forth (idhrib) them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.” (4:34)

“[Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, "I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so set forth (strike) (idhrib) upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip."” (8:12) Their weapons are already known.

“And if you could but see when the angels take the souls of those who disbelieved... They are setting forth (to Hell) their faces and their backs and [saying], "Taste the punishment of the Burning Fire.” (8:50) (for comparison, see 4:47, 8:50, 33:66, 54:48, 75:23-35)

“And present (idhrib)to them an example of two men: We granted to one of them two gardens of grapevines, and We bordered them with palm trees and placed between them [fields of] crops.” (18:32)

“And present (idhrib) to them the example of the life of this world,” (18:45)

“And We had inspired to Moses, "Travel by night with My servants and set forth (idhrib) for them a dry path through the sea” (20:77)

“and to set forth (adhrib) their covers over their chests” (24:31)

“And let them not stamp (set forth) (adhrib) their feet to make known what they conceal of their adornment.” (24:31)

“Then We inspired to Moses, "Set forth (possibly by striking) (idhrib) with your staff the sea," and it parted, and each portion was like a great towering mountain.” (26:63) Notice where hitting MAY BE involved, weapon is identified.

“And set forth (idhrib) to them an example: the people of the city, when the messengers came to it.” (36:13)

“Then did he turn upon them, setting forth (darban) with the right hand.” (37:93)

“Then how [will it be] when the angels take them in death, setting forth (to hell) (idhrib) their faces and their backs?” (47:27) (for comparison, see 4:47, 8:50, 33:66, 54:48, 75:23-35)


I will take your point about "softly" as evidence that the ahadith are wrong. Thus, they are inconsequential.
Last edited by MesMorial on Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Post by MesMorial »

Dear FFI majority (forum):

I am not out of words, but for now, I am giving up on you (after all, irrelevant are the two). Since you are trapped here, I am sure you will be posing no more a problem than a constricted weed.

Cheers.
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Post by iffo »

MesMorial wrote:Dear FFI majority (forum):

I am not out of words, but for now, I am giving up on you (after all, irrelevant are the two). Since you are trapped here, I am sure you will be posing no more a problem than a constricted weed.

Cheers.
It is probably not a bad idea, because you have completely run out of material. You tried different things like hitting the air not wife, beating lightly, changing the meaning of the word, saying quran does not talk about beating in detail so quran contradicts itself etc. But none of this makes sense and can pull you out from this hole you fell into.

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Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Post by MesMorial »

Iffo;

I offered before my last post: debate me exclusively and prove you are real. I will wait for your acceptance. Otherwise I will think your above comment is more of the same garbage.

Topics are my approach vs your grumpiness and Qur'an-alone (religion) vs hadith (ignorance, herd-thinking).

If you refuse, do not make excuses for your hypocrisy. This is your chance.

You have one week to present your clear acceptance or declination here. I am not discussing anything else with anyone, except in an environment where they are accountable for what they say (i.e. proper debate).

After all, I am not leaving because of the counter-logic, but rather the lack of and refusal to present it.

Cheers.
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Re: Quran434.com - open invitation to all - $1000

Post by sum »

Hello MesMorial

One on one debates are a side issue. The main issue is bringing out the truth and not in trying to show who is the best debater. The more people that join in the debates the better as it is more likely that truth will emerge.

sum

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