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AISYAH AGE WHEN MARRY

Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:22 am
by Garudaman
How Old was Aisyah when She got married to Muhammad? (was Prophet Muhammad a Pedophile?)
January 16, 2008 — sk2

Dear Sir, I’m a moslem woman from Indonesia. as a moslem i must respect other people’s opinion include you. it’s a human right to speak whatever they want eventhough it’s include an insult about another religion.

~ Terjemahan dalam Bahasa Indonesia click here

Source: http://www.adamyoshida.com/2004/08/comi ... anada.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Original Title: Aisyah Age

i leave you this comment based on your statement about Muhammad is a phedopilia (i apologize for my bad English).

What is pedophile? Find at Wikipedia and Yahoo Answer

have you done the research before you wrote that, sir? here i give you some statement against your words about Muhammad as a phedophilia complete with the book references that you can check by yourself from library.

Thank you for giving the chance to leave a comment.maybe you will think this is only a garbage, but at least i already did what my right as a human (same as you)..a freedom to speak.

PROOF #1: OUR TESTING TOWARD THE SOURCE Most of the stories which tell us about this matter were being told only by Hisham ibn `Urwah, who wrote it by the order of his father. There supposed minimal 2 or 3 person who wrote the same story or hadist. It is strange that no one in Medinah, where Hisham ibn `Urwah lived, until his 71 years old, had waited to told about this story, besides the fact that there were a lot of students in Medinah include the famous one Malik ibn Anas, never recorded to tell about this story. The beginning of this story was from Iraq people, where Hisham stayed there in his old age after moved from Medinah. Tehzibu’l-Tehzib, one of a quite famous book who discuss about the stories from Hadist tellers, according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah has noted : “Hisham is highly trusted, his story possible to accept, EXCEPT the stories he told after he moved to Iraq“(Tehzi’bu’l-tehzi’b, Ibn Hajar Al- ‘asqala’ni, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, 15th century. Vol 11, p.50).

In his next statement Malik ibn Anas denied the stories from Hisham which recorded by Iraq people. (Tehzi’b u’l-tehzi’b, IbnHajar Al- `asqala’ni, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, Vol.11, p. 50). Mizanu’l-ai`tidal, another book who also discuss as same as Tehzibu’l-tehzib has recorded : “When Hisham got older, his memory had a dramatic fell” (Mizanu’l-ai`tidal, Al-Zahbi, Al-Maktabatu’l-athriyyah, Sheikhupura, Pakistan, Vol. 4, p. 301). CONCLUSION: based on this reference , Hisham’s memory is very poor and his story after he moved to Iraq is highly unbelievable so his story about the age of Aisyah when she got married to Muhammad is not credible. KRONOLOGI: It is very important to record and memorized the important dates on history of Islam. Pra-610 M: Jahiliya (pra- Islamic era) before God’s order is received through Muhammad. 610 M: First God’s words through Muhammad. Abu Bakar receives Islam 613 M: Muhammad started teaching it in his society 615 M: Muhammad moved to Abbysinia 616 M: Umar bin al Khattab receives Islam. 620 M: It is told that Muhammad purposed Aisyah 622 M: Moved to Yathrib, next to be called Medina until now 623/624 M: It is told that Muhammad is married with Aisyah

PROOF#2 : The purposed of Muhammad to Aisyah According to Tabari (also according to Hisham ibn `Urwah, Ibn Hunbal and Ibn Sad), Aisyah was purposed in her 7 years old and married Muhammad in her 9 years old, but, in another section, Al-Tabari said: “All children of Abu Bakr (4 children) was born in Jahiliyah era from his 2 wives “(Tarikhu’l-umam wa’l-mamlu’k, Al-Tabari (died 922), Vol. 4,p. 50, Arabic, Dara’l-fikr, Beirut, 1979). If Aisyah was purposed in 620M (7 years old) and married in 623/624 M(9 years old), this indicate that Aisyah was born in 613 M. So based on Al- Tabari’s writing, Aisyah supposed to be born in 613M, which was 3 years after Jahiliyah era is finished (610 M). Tabari also said that Aisyah was born in Jahiliyah era. If Aisyah was born in Jahiliyah era, Aisyah’s age is supposed to minimal 14 years old when she got married. The point is Tabari has contradiction about his story. CONCLUSION: Al-Tabari is not consistent with Aisyah’s age when she got married.

PROOF # 3: Aisyah’s age compared with Fatimah’s age. According to Ibn Hajar, “Fatima was born when Ka`bah was rebuilt, when Muhammad was 35 years old… Fatimah is 5 years older than Aisyah “(Al-isabah fi tamyizi’l-sahabah, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Vol. 4, p. 377, Maktabatu’l-Riyadh al-haditha, al-Riyadh, 1978). If the statement from Ibn Hajar is actual, it means Aisyah was born when Muhammad was 40 years old. If Aisyah married with Muhammad when he was 52 years old, then her age when she got married was 12 years old. CONCLUSION: Ibn Hajar, Tabari, Ibn Hisham, dan Ibn Humbal are being contradicted in each other, but it looks obvious that the story about Aisyah got married when she was 7 years old is only a myth.

PROOF #4: Counting Aisyah’s age with Asma’s age According Abda’l-Rahman ibn abi zanna’d: “Asma is 10 years older than Aisyah (Siyar A`la’ma’l-nubala’, Al-Z.ahabi, Vol. 2, p. 289, Arabic, Mu’assasatu’l-risalah, Beirut, 1992). According Ibn Kathir: “Asma is 10 years older than her sister [Aisyah]” (Al-Bidayah wa’l-nihayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol. 8, p. 371,Dar al-fikr al-`arabi, > Al-jizah, 1933). According Ibn Kathir: “Asma saw the murder of her child in 73 H and 5 days after that Asma died. According another sources, she died in next 10 or 20 days after the tragedy, or several days after 20 days, or next 100 days. The most believe is she died in next 100 days. “When Asma died, she was 100 years old” (Al-Bidayah wa’l-nihayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol. 8, p. 372, Dar al-fikr al-`arabi, Al-jizah, 1933). According Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani: “Asma lived until the age of 100 years and died in 73 or 74 H.” (Taqribu’l-tehzib, Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani,p. 654, Arabic, Bab fi’l-nisa’, al-harfu’l-alif, Lucknow). According most of the historians, Asma, the oldest sister from Aisyah is 10years older than Aisyah. If Asma died in her 100 years old in 73 H, Asma supposed to be 27 or 28 years old in Hijrah era (622M). If Asma was 27 or 28 years old in Hijrah era(622 M), in the same time when Aisyah got married, Aisyah supposed to in her 17 or 18 years old. Based on Hajar, Ibn Katir, and Abda’l-Rahman ibn abi zanna’d, Aisyah’s age when she got married with Muhammad was 19 or 20 years old. In Proof# 3, Ibn Hajar has estimated Aisyah’s age is 12 tahun and in proof #4 Ibn Hajar told against his first estimation that Aisyah’s age is 17 or 18 years old. So which one is true? 12 or 18 years old..? conclusion : Ibn Hajar is not valid in the story of Aisyah’s age when she got married.

PROOF #5: BADAR War and UHUD There is a story about the participation of Aisyah in Badr war which is can be found in Moslem Hadist, (Kitabu’l-jihad wa’l-siyar, Part: karahiyati’l-isti`anah fi’l-ghazwi bikafir). Aisyah, when she mentioned about one of the most important moments during her journey in Badar war, said : “when we reached Shajarah”. From this statement, it is obvious that Aisyah was the member of the journey headed to Badar. A story about her participation in Uhud war is mention in Bukhari (Kitabu’l-jihad wa’l-siyar, Part: Ghazwi’l-nisa’ wa qitalihinnama`a’lrijal): “Anas recorded that on the day of Uhud war, people could not stand close to Muhammad and on that day I saw Aisyah and Umm-i-Sulaim from far.” Again, this statement shows the presence of Aisyah in both wars. Uhud and Badr. Told by Bukhari (Kitabu’l-maghazi, Bab Ghazwati’l-khandaq wa hiya’l-ahza’b): “Ibn `Umar said that Muhammad didn’t not allow him to participated in Uhud war, because on that time, Ibnu Umar was only 14 years old. But when in Khandaq war, he was 15 years old so Muhammad allowed him to participated in the war.” Based from the stories, (a) People aged under15 years old will be sent home and not allowed to follow the war, (b) Aisyah followed the Badar war and Uhud war. CONCLUSION: The participation of Aisyah in Badar war and Uhud war was clearly indicated that she wasn’t 9 years old at that time but at least was 15 years old. Besides, the women who followed their husband to the war was had function, helping and support their husband and not just to be a burden for their husband. This also another proof about the contradiction of Aisyah’s age when she got married.

PROOF #6: Surah al-Qamar (means MOON. Surah is the name of each part in Quran) According to several stories, Aisyah was born in the 8th year before Hijrah, but according another source in Bukhari, Aisyah is noted saying this: “I am a young girl(jariyah in Arabic)” when Surah Al-Qamar is told through Muhammad(Sahih Bukhari, kitabu’l-tafsir, Part Qaulihi Bal al-sa`atu Maw`iduhum wa’l-sa`atu adha’ wa amarr). Surat 54 from Quran was told in the 8th year before hijriyah (The Bounteous Koran, M.M. Khatib, 1985), shows that those surah was told in 614 M. If Aisyah started her life with Muhammad when she was 9 years old in 623 M or 624 M, Aisyah was still a baby (sibyah in Arabic) when Surah Al-Qamar is told. Based on the information that mentioned above, Aisyah is a young girl not a baby when Al-Qamar is told. Jariyah, means a young girl (Lane’s Arabic English Lexicon). So , Aisyah, had became a jariyah not sibyah (baby), so she supposed to be in her 6-13 years old in surah Al-Qamar’s era , and based on from that she must be 14-21 years old when got married with Muhammad. Conclusion: this proof provides the information about the age of Aisyah when she got married.

PROOF #7: Terminology in Arabic language According the story from Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the died of Muhammad first wife, Khadijah, Khaulah came to Muhammad and adviced him to remarried again. Muhammad asked him about the option that Khaulah had in his mind and Khaulah said: “You can marry with a virgin (bikr) or a widow (thayyib)”. When Muhammad asked about the identity of the girl who hasn’t married (bikr), Khaulah mentioned the name of Aisyah. For people who understand Arabic language, they will see that “Bikr” word in Arabic language is not for a young girl with the age of 9 years old. Bikr in the other hand is used for a woman who hasn’t been married and doesn’t have experience in a marriage, as in English language the similar word with it is “virgin”. So it is clear that the term for Bikr is not for a 9 years old girl. (Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Vol. 6, p. .210,Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-`arabi, Beirut).

PROOF #8. Text Qur’an All Moslem people agree that Quran is a holy book (as same as the bibble for the Christian) where we will find the answer for all our questions. So we only need to open Quran to find about the answer about Aisyah’s age and her marriage. Is Quran allow or not allow the marriage of 7years old girl? There is no words which explicitly allow those kind of marriage. There’s words in quran which guides Moslems how to treat and educate orphan children : And do not entrust to those who are weak of judgment the possessions which God has placed in your charge for [their] support; but let them have their sustenance therefrom, and clothe them, and speak unto them in a kindly way. (Qs. 4:5) And test the orphans [in your charge] until they reach a marriageable age; then, if you find them to be mature of mind, hand over to them their possessions; and do not consume them by wasteful spending, and in haste, ere they grow up. And let him who is rich abstain entirely [from his ward’s property]; and let him who is poor partake thereof in a fair manner. And when you hand over to them their possessions, let there be witnesses on their behalf – although none can take count as God does. (Qs. 4:6) When a child is left by their parents, a Moslem is required to (a)feed them, (b)give them clothes, (c) educate them, and (d) test them about their maturity “reach a marriageable age” before trust them into managing the financial matters. In here very clear that no Moslem will trust a 7 years old girl in managing the financial matters means that 7 years old girl is not capable to married because they haven’t reach the “marriageable age” or mature in physicly and intellectually. Ibn Hambal (Musnad Ahmad ibn Hambal, vol.6, p. 33 and 99) stated that 9 years old Aisyah was more interested playing with her toys than took a duty as a wife of someone. That’s why it’s hard to believe that AbuBakar, a respectful Moslem would give his very own young girl to be married with 50 years old Muhammad. As same as difficult imagining that Muhammad was marrying a 7 years old girl. Another important duty in guarding the children is to teach them. Let me ask you a question : how many from us believe that we can teach our kids with the satisfaction result when they are still in 7 or 9 years old?? The answer is : Big Zero. Our logic said that it is impossible to teach them perfectly if they are still in very young age. Aisyah’s father, AbuBakr, is a wiser man who will follow what the Quran has stated and WILL NOT give his child to get married because she’s not mature enough. Also Muhammad will strictly refused those kind of marriage because it’s AGAINST the Quran. Conclusion: The marriage of Aisyah in her 7 years old age is against the statement in Quran about the Marriagable Age. So the story about her marriage with Muhammad when she was 7 years old is only a MYTH.

PROOF #9: The permission in the marriage A Moslem woman must be asked first about her approval in her marriage. (Mishakat al Masabiah, translation by James Robson, Vol. I, p. 665). In Islam, the approval from the woman side is a basic condition in leading to a legal marriage. It is beyond our imagination that a smart man like AbuBakr will approve the marriage of his daughter who not eligible enough to give an approval of her marriage. As stated in Hadist, Aisyah is more interested playing with her toys in her 7 years old age. Conclusion : Muhammad would not marry a 7 years old girl because the girl wasn’t mature enough to approved the wedding, as for Moslem woman who want to get married, the approval from herself is very essential. So there’s only one possibility, Muhammad was married to Aisyah based on her own approval to get married with him, it means at that time Aisyah was mature enough to realize the situation she would face, the marriage between herself and a man named, Muhammad. SUMMARY: There’s no tradition in Arab to marry their sons or daughters when they still in 7 or 9 years old. Therefore, it’s impossible about the story of Muhammad married with Aisyah when she was 7 or 9 years old. Clearly, the story of Aisyah’s wedding in her 9 year old age by Hisham ibn `Urwah can not be consider as a true story and the story itself against with another stories which already written in some ancient books which I already gave the references above. More far, there’s no reason to accept Hisham ibn `Urwah’s story as a true story when the other experts, include Malik ibn Anas, has stated that the Hisham ibn `Urwah’s story during his stayed in Iraq is not reliable. The comments from Tabari,Bukhari and Muslim show us that between them there’s internal contradiction about the real age of Aisyah when she got married. So, the history about Aisyah’s marriage isn’t reliable because an obvious contradiction was happening between the experts of Islam history. Also in Qur’an itself the marriage of woman or man who still not in their marriageable age is strictly not allow.

# posted by wiweka : Monday, April 02, 2007 11:11:00 PM

Re: AISYAH AGE WHEN MARRY

Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:20 pm
by Just Dan
This is speculative!
It is almost as if you are questioning the validity of Bukhari Hadith which is narrated by Ayesha herself. She explicitly stated her age in her narration.
If that is the case, the whole Islamic Texts are also questionnable, Sir.
Is this what i think it is?
Are you questioning the validity of the Hadith Sahih?
You can't bring up arguments using "what-if" theories.

Re: AISYAH AGE WHEN MARRY

Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:32 pm
by sword_of_truth
Muhammad's child-marriage scandal is a win-win for us. If it is true, we win because Muhammed is shown to have a poor moral character. If it is false, we win because it is shown that traditional Islam is based on unreliable hearsay. It just couldn't get any better either way.

Re: AISYAH AGE WHEN MARRY

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 10:28 pm
by katlike
So according to islamic sources little Aishya was...
PROOF #1: OUR TESTING TOWARD THE SOURCE
This doesn't say how old she was. She could be two, she could be nine, she might even be 12. Who is to know? According to you the guy was mentally dysfunctional and everything he says needs to be looked at with more scrutiny. Does not mean he was wrong, just that we can't count him as reliable. Good enough.
PROOF #2: Says she was nine but she might have been 14 Good enough.
PROOF #3: She was 12. Good enough.
PROOF #4: She was 19 or 20. Good enough, except for you give us this little disclaimer
In Proof# 3, Ibn Hajar has estimated Aisyah’s age is 12 tahun and in proof #4 Ibn Hajar told against his first estimation that Aisyah’s age is 17 or 18 years old. So which one is true? 12 or 18 years old..? conclusion : Ibn Hajar is not valid in the story of Aisyah’s age when she got married.
So we cannot use Ibn Hajar as a credible source. No proof she was 12 or 18 when she was married.
PROOF #5:
Ibn `Umar said that Muhammad didn’t not allow him to participated in Uhud war, because on that time, Ibnu Umar was only 14 years old.
Your premise that she had to be at least 15 in order to be there is sadly false. Just because he was sent home does not mean she was any certain age. So we have no basis for her age of any sort.
PROOF #6 This is a stretch by numbers and a pendantic argument. Your proof is this:
Aisyah is noted saying this: “I am a young girl(jariyah in Arabic)” when Surah Al-Qamar is told through Muhammad
Then your reasoning becomes
So, Aisyah, had became a jariyah not sibyah (baby), so she supposed to be in her 6-13 years old in surah Al-Qamar’s era
Following your argument you will now have to prove to me why I am wrong in referring to my 11-18 year old sons as my "babies" and why my mother is wrong for referring to me as "her baby" when I am in my 40s and most importantly, your going to have to prove to me that when I think back onto my life before i was 6 I refer to myself as a baby and not as a young girl. True story, when I was a young girl I almost drowned in a swimming pool, a stranger pulled me out and saved my life. I remember that incident clearly, I was not yet three.
PROOF #7: Again your pulling the pendantic card. When discussing viable brides with a premium placed on virginity do you refer to them as young girls or virgins? If the young girl in question is a virgin are you wrong for referring to her as a virgin? Again, no proof of her age, but sadly you do make the argument that mohammed was searching for a "type".
PROOF #8: I can't even understand your reasoning here, the koran certainly doesn't forbid it, we both agree to that fact. We can also both agree that the koran is pretty specific about what is haram. The very fact that the koran neglects to even bother to mention this incredibly important aspect of female development is very revealing. It is enough for me to turn away from islam, but still, does not in any way prove aisha's age.
PROOF #9: This is a hotly debated topic. I think back to when my sons were 6,7,10,13,14, they would have done my bidding. If I had "asked" them to marry a girl in our contemporary society, they would have done so, they were young trusted me and had no clue what they were signing up for. Do you think it was better for Aisha? Really, to tout out this "she has to give consent" is pretty nonsense when you think about who is the one doing the asking. Little girls love their Papas, if my dad had asked me to marry some guy when I was 14,16, or even worse 7 or 9 do you really think I would of had the ability to say no? Of course she consented, certainly doesn't prove her age in any way or the other.
The comments from Tabari,Bukhari and Muslim show us that between them there’s internal contradiction about the real age of Aisyah when she got married. So, the history about Aisyah’s marriage isn’t reliable because an obvious contradiction was happening between the experts of Islam history.
Contradictions, but by your own proof, we can narrow it down to she was between nine and 14. What was mohammed's age again? Oh that is right, we both agree he was well into his 40's. Care to convince your 14 year old daughter to lay down in bed with a man well into his 40's?

I thought not. Do you feel better knowing he bedded a 14 year old as opposed to a 9 year old? I don't and I am giving you the benefit of the doubt by 5 years. I find it horrible that people feel the need to defend pedophiles. Look how much it means to you, and the best you can do prove she might have been 14. You and I both know, that even 14 is still not good enough for a person who is suppose to be the best example for all time.

Peace, Love and Health,
Katlike

Re: AISYAH AGE WHEN MARRY

Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:00 am
by piscohot
we both agree he was well into his 40's.
i believed Muhammad was in his 50s when he bonked 9 year old Aisha.

a 50+ year old man who got erections looking at a 9 year old girl.... and muslims called him their prophet. :wacko:

Re: AISYAH AGE WHEN MARRY

Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:38 am
by Multiple
piscohot wrote:
we both agree he was well into his 40's.
i believed Muhammad was in his 50s when he bonked 9 year old Aisha.

a 50+ year old man who got erections looking at a 9 year old girl.... and muslims called him their prophet. :wacko:
and not forgetting "the BEST of Men' whose deeds and lifestyle are to be EMULATED and sad to say so many Mohammedans do.

Re: AISYAH AGE WHEN MARRY

Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:19 am
by Multiple
Seems Mohammedans don't care what age the BABIES are. What an EVIL CULT it is.

ISLAM PERMITS SEX WITH ONE YEAR OLD BABIES

http://www.faithfreedom.org/videos-feat ... old-girls/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: AISYAH AGE WHEN MARRY

Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 5:07 pm
by Sanitarium
Garudaman wrote: PROOF#2 : The purposed of Muhammad to Aisyah According to Tabari (also according to Hisham ibn `Urwah, Ibn Hunbal and Ibn Sad), Aisyah was purposed in her 7 years old and married Muhammad in her 9 years old,
No it says 6 & 9 or 7 & 9. It's defnitely 9 though. Perhaps you should try bringing the source to back up your claims next time?

From Tabari Volume VII, Pages: 6-8:
The Marriage with 'A'ishah
In this year also the Messenger of God consummated his marriage with'A'ishah.'1 This was in Dhu al-Qa'dah (May-June 623) eight months after his arrival in Medina according to some accounts, or in Shawwal (April-May 623) seven months after his arrival according
to others. He had married her in Mecca three years before the Hijrah, after the death of Khadijah. At that time she was six or, according to other accounts, seven years old.

According to 'Abd al-Hamid b. Bayan al-Sukkari-Muhammad b. Yazid-Ismail (that is, Ibn AN Khalid)-'Abd al-Rahman b. Abi al-Dahhak-a man from Quraysh-'Abd al-Rahman b. Muhammad: 'Abd Allah b. Safwan together with another person came to 'A'ishah, and 'A'ishah said (to the latter), "0 so-and-so, have you heard what Hafsah has been saying?"" He said, "Yes, 0 Mother of the Faithful." 'Abd Allah b. Safwan asked
her, "What is that?" She replied, "There are nine special features in me that have not been in any woman, except for what God bestowed
on Maryam bt. Imran." By God, I do not say this to exalt myself over any of my companions." "What are these?" he asked. She replied, "The angel brought down my likeness; the Messenger of God married me when I was seven; my marriage was consummated when I was nine; he married me when I was a virgin, no other man having shared me with him; inspiration came to him when he and I were in a single blanket ; I was one of the dearest people to him; a verse of the Qur'an was revealed concerning me when the community was almost destroyed;'s I saw Gabriel when none of his other wives saw him; and he was taken (that is, died) in his house when there was nobody with him but
the angel and myself." According to Abu Ja'far (al-Tabari): The Messenger of God married her, so it is said, in Shawwal, and consummated his marriage to her in a later year, also in Shawwal.

Further Reports Concerning This
According to Ibn Bashshar-Yahya b. Said-Sufyan-Ismail b.Umayyah-'Abd Allah b. 'Urwah-his father ('Urwah) 'A'ishah: The Messenger of God married me in Shawwal and consummated his marriage to me in Shawwal. 'A'ishah liked her women's marriages to be consummated in Shawwal. According to Ibn WAY-his father-Sufyan-Ismail b. Umayyah-'Abd Allah b. 'Urwah-'Urwah-'A'ishah: The Messenger of God married me in Shawwal and consummated his marriage to me in Shawwal, and which of the Messenger of God's wives did he favour more than me? 'A'ishah liked her women's marriages to be consummated in Shawwal. According to Abu Ja'far (al-Tabari): It is said that the Messenger
of God consummated his marriage to her on a Wednesday in Shawwal in the house of (her father) Abu Bakr in al-Sunh."
From Tabari Volume IX, Page 128:
Abu Ja'far [al-Tabari]: The Messenger of God did not marry another woman during the life of Khadijah until she passed away. When she died, the Messenger of God got married, but (opinions] differ as to whom he married first after Khadijah. Some say that it was 'A'ishah bt. Abi Bakr al-$iddiq, while others say that it was Sawdah bt. Zam'ah b. Qays b. 'Abd Shams b. 'Abd Wudd b. Nagr. As for 'A'ishah, when he married her she was very young and not yet ready for consummation [877]


Footnote: 877: She was six years old when the Prophet married her in Shawwil , tenth year of the mission. The marriage was consummated in Shawwil in Medina when she was nine years old. She died in Ramadan 58/678. Ibn Sa'd, Tabagat, VIII, 39-56; Balidhuri, Ansdb, I, 409-21
From Tabari Volume IX, Pages 129-130:
The Reason Why the Messenger of God Asked for the Hands of Both `A'ishah and Sawdah in Marriage and the Received Reports as to with Whom He First Contracted the Marriage

Said b. Yabya b. Said al-Umawi879-his father880-Mulammad b. `Amr-Yabya b. 'Abd al-Ra] min b. Hitib881-`A'ishah: When Khadijah died, Khawlah bt. Hakim b. Umayyah b. al-Awga^, wife of `Uthmin b. Ma:;'un, who was in Mecca, said [to the Messenger of God], "0 Messenger of God, will you not marry?" He replied, "Whom?" "A maiden," she said, "if you like, or a non-maiden." He replied, "Who is the maiden?" "The daughter of the dearest creature of God to you," she answered, "`A'ishah bt. Abi Bakr." He asked, "And who is the non-maiden ?" "Sawdah bt. Zamah b. Qays," she replied, "she has [long] believed in you and has followed you." [So the Prophet] asked her to go and propose to them on his behalf.

She went to Abu Bakr's house, where she found Umm Rumen, mother of `A'ishah, and said, "0 Umm Rumen, what a good thing and a blessing has God brought to you !" She said, "What is that?" Khawlah replied, "The Messenger of God has sent me to ask for `A'ishah's hand in marriage on his behalf." She answered. "I ask that you wait for Abu Bakr, for he should be on his way." When Abu Bakr came, Khawlah repeated what she had said. He replied, "She is [like] his brother's daughter. Would she be appropriate for
him?" When Khawlah returned to the Messenger of God and told him about it he said, "Go back to him and say that he is my brother in Islam and that I am his brother [in IslamJ, so his daughter is good for me." She came to Abu Bakr and told him what the Messenger of God had said. Then he asked her to wait until he returned.

Umm Rumen said that al-Mut'im b. 'Adi had asked `A'ishah's hand for his son, but Abu Bakr had not promised anything. Abu Bakr left and went to Mut'im while his wife, mother of the whom he had asked 'A'ishah's hand, was with him. She said, "0 son of Abu Quhafah, perhaps we could marry our son to your daughter if you could make him leave his religion and bring him in to the religion which you practice." He turned to her husband al-Mut'im and said, "What is she saying?" He replied, "She says [what you have just heard]." Abu Bakr left, [realizing that] God had [just] removed the problem he had in his mind. He said to Khawlah, "Call the Messenger of God." She called him and he
came. Abu Bakr married ['A'ishah] to him when she was [only] six years old.
From Tabari Volume IX, Pages 130-131:
‘A’ishah states: We came to Medina and Abu Bakr took up quarters in al-Sunh among the Banu al-Harith b. al-Khazraj. The Messenger of God came to our house and men and women of the Ansar gathered around him. My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. Jumaymah, my nurse, took over and wiped my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door, she stopped so I could catch my breath. I was then brought [in] while the Messenger of God was sitting on a bed in our house. [My mother] made me sit on his lap and said, "These are your relatives. May God bless you with them and bless them with you!" Then the men and women got up and left. The Messenger of God consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old. Neither a camel nor a sheep was slaughtered on behalf of me. Only Sa‘d b. ‘Ubaidah sent a bowl of food which he used to send to the Messenger of God.

‘Ali b. Nasr- ‘Abd al-Samad b. ‘Abd al-Warith- ‘Abd al-Warith b. ‘Abd al-Samad- his father- Aban al-‘Attar- Hisham b. ‘Urwah- ‘Urwah: He wrote to ‘Abd al-Malik b. Marwan stating that he had written to him about Khadijah bt. Khuwaylid, asking him about when she died. She died three years or close to that before the Messenger of God’s departure from Mecca, and he married ‘A’ishah after Khadijah’s death. The Messenger of God saw ‘A’ishah twice- [first when] it was said to him that she was his wife (she was six years old at that time), and later [when] he consummated she was nine years old.

(The report goes back to Hisham b. Muhammad. See above, I, 1766). Then the Messenger of God married ‘A’ishah bt. Abi Bakr, whose name is ‘Atiq b. Abi Quhafah, who is ‘Uthman, and is called ‘Abd al-Rahman b. ‘Uthman b. ‘Amir b. ‘Amir b. Ka‘b b. Sa‘d b. Taym b. Murrah: [The Prophet] married her three years before the Emigration, when she was seven years old, and consummated the marriage when she was nine years old, after he had emigrated to Medina in Shawwal. She was eighteen years old when he died. The Messenger of God did not marry any maiden except her.
Garudaman wrote: but, in another section, Al-Tabari said: “All children of Abu Bakr (4 children) was born in Jahiliyah era from his 2 wives “(Tarikhu’l-umam wa’l-mamlu’k, Al-Tabari (died 922), Vol. 4,p. 50, Arabic, Dara’l-fikr, Beirut, 1979).
Can we have the Tabari reference please?
Garudaman wrote: Tabari also said that Aisyah was born in Jahiliyah era.
Can we have the Tabari reference please?
Garudaman wrote: The point is Tabari has contradiction about his story. CONCLUSION: Al-Tabari is not consistent with Aisyah’s age when she got married.
Tabari is not the author but the collector of the narrations. One thing EVERY report is consistent of is the age when her marriage was CONSUMMATED - and that was 9 years old. The age of her marriage is only a 1 year disparity. So let us say the consummation age is off by 1 year also (even though all the report's in question all say the same age), that would make Aisha, what, 10 years old? Is that any better?
Garudaman wrote: PROOF #7: Terminology in Arabic language According the story from Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the died of Muhammad first wife, Khadijah, Khaulah came to Muhammad and adviced him to remarried again. Muhammad asked him about the option that Khaulah had in his mind and Khaulah said: “You can marry with a virgin (bikr) or a widow (thayyib)”. When Muhammad asked about the identity of the girl who hasn’t married (bikr), Khaulah mentioned the name of Aisyah. For people who understand Arabic language, they will see that “Bikr” word in Arabic language is not for a young girl with the age of 9 years old. Bikr in the other hand is used for a woman who hasn’t been married and doesn’t have experience in a marriage, as in English language the similar word with it is “virgin”. So it is clear that the term for Bikr is not for a 9 years old girl. (Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Vol. 6, p. .210,Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-`arabi, Beirut).
Are you saying a 6 year old girl would not be classified as a "virgin"? Khawlah said a virgin or a non-virgin in proposition to who Muhammad would marry. Muhammad asked Khawlah to go propose to both of them (Aisha & Sawdah) on his behalf.

The section I already quoted goes on to say that Sawdah was a non "maiden" (in the translation I have) - ie. virgin because she had been married before, Aisha had not, therefore was a virgin.
Garudaman wrote: Is Quran allow or not allow the marriage of 7years old girl? There is no words which explicitly allow those kind of marriage.
Yes Quran 65:4 discusses this.
Garudaman wrote: When a child is left by their parents, a Moslem is required to (a)feed them, (b)give them clothes, (c) educate them, and (d) test them about their maturity “reach a marriageable age” before trust them into managing the financial matters.
This is only for male children.
Garudaman wrote: In here very clear that no Moslem will trust a 7 years old girl in managing the financial matters means that 7 years old girl is not capable to married because they haven’t reach the “marriageable age” or mature in physicly and intellectually. Ibn Hambal (Musnad Ahmad ibn Hambal, vol.6, p. 33 and 99) stated that 9 years old Aisyah was more interested playing with her toys than took a duty as a wife of someone.
Yes and she played with dolls even after consummating her marriage with Muhammad.
Garudaman wrote: That’s why it’s hard to believe that AbuBakar, a respectful Moslem would give his very own young girl to be married with 50 years old Muhammad.
It doesn't matter what you believe, it matters (to you) what your texts say. After all you muslims believe the Quran is the start and end of all information so now all you need to do is realize that IF the Quran said 'Aisha was 9 years old when Muhammad had sex with her' then you guys would have no problem with this issue, because the quran would say it and it must be true right?

Then you should go and read Quran 65:4 and find the Quran talks about divorcing those who are too young to have menstruated yet and realize you book DOES allow muslim's to marry pre-pubescent little girls It doesn't matter that you hate it and you think it's disgusting your book says it so you should accept it if you are a Muslim.
Garudaman wrote: Aisyah’s father, AbuBakr, is a wiser man who will follow what the Quran has stated and WILL NOT give his child to get married because she’s not mature enough.
That Surah was not yet revealed when Abu Bakr did it, Also Muhammad is (supposedly) Uswa Hasana and rasul of Allah, the NABI!!! Who is he to against nabi muhammad?

If Muhammad came to you today and said "give me your daughter to marry" and you believed him to be all those things (rasul, nabi, revealer of Quran, spoken to by Allah) would you say no?
Garudaman wrote: Also Muhammad will strictly refused those kind of marriage because it’s AGAINST the Quran. Conclusion: The marriage of Aisyah in her 7 years old age is against the statement in Quran about the Marriagable Age. So the story about her marriage with Muhammad when she was 7 years old is only a MYTH.
Untrue.

Perhaps you should go and actually read your Quran? You would make yourself look a whole lot less foolish.
Garudaman wrote: PROOF #9: The permission in the marriage A Moslem woman must be asked first about her approval in her marriage.
Abu Bakr gave his permission.
Garudaman wrote: as for Moslem woman who want to get married, the approval from herself is very essential.
Garbage. A Muslim man can marry a little girl, if she is before puberty and he can consummate the marriage. However if she reaches puberty and does not want to be married to him she CAN dissolve the marriage herself because she did not agree to the marriage (because she was underage and immature). But as stated, her "husband" CAN live the "married life" and have sex with her up until this point so the damage is done.

seriously, where were you educated about your religion? I feel embarrassed for you :|

Re: AISYAH AGE WHEN MARRY

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:23 am
by Multiple
Was Muhammad a Pedophile?

An Examination of Muhammad’s Relationship with a Nine-Year-Old Girl

For the Western mind, perhaps the most disturbing fact about Islam is that its founder had a sexual relationship with a nine-year-old girl. Because of this, it has become increasingly popular in some circles to refer to the Prophet of Islam as a "pedophile." This is, of course, extremely offensive to Muslims, who view Muhammad as the ideal servant of God and as the greatest example of what a man should strive to be. Nevertheless, Muhammad’s relationship with a young girl presents a problem for Muslims, especially for those who want to share their faith with others.

Since much of the following information will come as a shock to those who are unfamiliar with this issue, we must be careful not to jump to hasty conclusions about Muhammad. Pedophilia is one of the most serious charges that can be leveled against a person, so the term "pedophile" should not be used lightly. We must also remember that, if a man has a sexual relationship with a young girl in a culture where such a union is permissible, this doesn’t necessarily mean that the man is a "sexual predator," as the term "pedophile" implies. Christians especially should be wary of flippant name-calling. With that said, let us carefully examine Muhammad’s relationship with Aisha, recalling the Western principle that a man is innocent until proven guilty.

FIRST MUSLIM DEFENSE: Aisha was older than nine years old.

Faced with the arguments of Western critics, Muslim apologists sometimes piece together information from various accounts in an attempt to deny that Aisha was as young as critics often claim:

The popular misconception as to Aishah’s age may be removed here. . . . Isabah, speaking of the Holy Prophet’s daughter Fatimah, says that she was about five years older than Aishah. It is a well-established fact that Fatimah was born when the Ka’bah was being rebuilt, i.e., five years before the Call. Aishah was therefore born in the year of the Call or a little before it, and she could not have been less than ten years at the time of her marriage with the Holy Prophet in the tenth year of the Call. . . . And as the period between her marriage and its consummation was not less than five years, because the consummation took place in the second year of the Flight, it follows that she could not have been less than fifteen at that time. The popular account that she was six years at marriage and nine years at the time of consummation is decidedly not correct because it supposes the period between the marriage and its consummation to be only three years, and this is historically wrong.[1]

RESPONSE: The evidence for Muhammad’s marriage to the nine-year-old Aisha is too strong to be ignored.

The problem with the selective and carefully edited defense just given (other than the complete lack of references) is that it ignores the numerous accounts we now possess which record Aisha’s age when Muhammad consummated his marriage to her. Many of these accounts are from Aisha herself. Indeed, the evidence for Muhammad’s marriage to the young Aisha is as strong as the evidence for just about any other fact in Islam. We have copious traditions relating Muhammad’s marriage proposal when Aisha was six or seven years old, as well as his consummation of that marriage when she was nine:

Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) narrated that the Prophet (may the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) married her when she was six years old, and he consummated her in marriage when she was nine years old. Then she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).[2]

Khadijah died three years before the Prophet (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) departed to Madina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she was nine years old.[3]

Urwa narrated: The Prophet (may the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) wrote the (marriage contract) with Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years.[4]

Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.[5]

Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and she was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.[6]

This is just a sample of the early Muslim traditions reporting Muhammad’s marriage to the young Aisha, but it is sufficient to show that she certainly wasn’t fifteen years old at the time of the consummation, as some Muslims claim.

(For a fuller treatment of the early evidence regarding Muhammad’s marriage to the young Aisha, click here.)

In addition to traditions regarding Aisha’s age, the Hadith also provides details about how the relationship began and progressed:

Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) narrated that the Prophet (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) said to her: "You have been shown to me twice in my dream. I saw you pictured on a piece of silk and someone said (to me), ‘This is your wife.’ When I uncovered the picture, I saw that it was yours. I said: ‘If this is from Allah, it will be done.’"[7]

After having this dream about Aisha, Muhammad proceeded to ask her father Abu Bakr for her hand in marriage. Abu Bakr understandably objected at first, but Muhammad was able to persuade him to agree. Aisha was later taken to Muhammad’s house:

The Prophet (may the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) asked Abu Bakr for Aisha’s hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said: "But I am your brother." The Prophet (may the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) said: "You are my brother in Allah’s religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry."[8]

Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) narrated: The Prophet (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) married me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Madina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Umm Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said: "Best wishes and Allah’s Blessing and good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah’s Apostle (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.[9]

Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) narrated: When the Prophet (may the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) married me, my mother came to me and made me enter the house (of the Prophet) and nothing surprised me but the coming of Allah’s Apostle to me in the forenoon.[10]

Once Aisha was a part of Muhammad’s household, she became his favorite wife, even after he married several other women. Indeed, Muhammad’s other wives had to plead with him for treatment equal to that of Aisha:[11]

The wives of Allah’s Apostle (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) were in two groups. One group consisted of Aisha, Hafsa, Safiyya and Sauda; and the other group consisted of Umm Salama and the other wives of Allah’s Apostle (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him). The Muslims knew that Allah’s Apostle (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) loved Aisha, so if any of them had a gift and wished to give it to Allah’s Apostle (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him), he would delay it, till Allah’s Apostle (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) had come to Aisha’s home . . . The group of Umm Salama discussed the matter together and decided that Umm Salama should request Allah’s Apostle (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) to tell the people to send their gifts to him in whatever wife’s house he was. . . . [Muhammad replied]: "Do not hurt me regarding Aisha, as the Divine Inspiration did not reveal it to me on any of the beds except that of Aisha." . . . Then the group of Umm Salama called Fatimah, the daughter of Allah’s Apostle (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) and sent her to Allah’s Apostle (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) to say to him: "Your wives request to treat them and the daughter of Abu Bakr on equal terms."[12]

Thus, Aisha held a place of special favor among Muhammad’s wives, which caused a great deal of tension among the women. Since it may be taken as historically certain that Aisha was very young when her marriage to Muhammad was consummated, critics sometimes charge that Muhammad’s preference for Aisha reveals his preference for young girls. The Hadith offers a certain amount of support for this view:

When I took the permission of Allah’s Apostle (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him), he asked me whether I had married a matron. He said: "Why hadn’t you married a virgin that would play with you, and you would play with her?" I replied: "O Allah’s Apostle! My father died and I have young sisters, so I felt it not proper that I should marry a young girl like them who would neither teach them manners nor serve them."[13]

Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) narrated: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet (may the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him), and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah’s Apostle (may the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet (may the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) would call them to join and play with me.[14]

Nevertheless, it must be noted that, if Muhammad had truly been obsessed with young girls, he could have taken many others as his wives. Muhammad eventually held complete power in Medina and later in Mecca, yet he didn’t build himself a harem of young girls. Since there isn’t enough evidence to support the charge that Muhammad had a perverted obsession with prepubescent girls, critics should be careful when making such a claim.

To sum up, the evidence makes it abundantly clear (1) that Muhammad had sexual intercourse with Aisha when she was very young, (2) that this relationship was pursued by Muhammad after he dreamed about her, and (3) that she was his favorite wife. With so much historical data reporting the age of Aisha, it should be obvious that Muslims who deny Muhammad’s relationship with her only do so out of embarrassment.

SECOND MUSLIM DEFENSE: Morality is relative to one’s culture.

Another method of defending Muhammad’s marriage to Aisha is the Muslim appeal to moral relativism. According to this view, since different cultures have different standards of morality, it is wrong to criticize the standards of others based on one’s own ethical system. Consider the following responses by Maqsood Jafri and Abdur Rahman Squires:

The Arabs practiced polygamy. In the wake of custom the Prophet Muhammad married some ladies. Hazrat Khadijah was fifteen years older [than] him at the time of marriage. Most of them were his age sake. In his fifties he married Hazrat Aiysha, the daughter of Hazrat Abu Bakr when she was just bloomed to youth. Hinting this marriage some of the orientalists charge Prophet Muhammad as a "pedophile". It was not only the Prophet Muhammad who had married a young girl [but] even the father of Hazrat Aiysha, Hazrat Abu Bakr had also married a young girl in his sixties. It was . . . part of the prevalent Arab culture and custom. Hence not to be taken seriously.[15]

The large majority of Islamic jurists say that the earliest time which a marriage can be consummated is at the onset of sexual maturity (bulugh), meaning puberty. Since this was the norm of all Semitic cultures and it still is the norm of many cultures today—it is certainly not something that Islam invented.[16]

Thus, since the practice of marrying young girls was "part of the prevalent Arab culture and custom," it is "not to be taken seriously" as a criticism of Islam.

RESPONSE: Islam is utterly inconsistent with moral relativism.

This defense is truly amazing, for, when defending Muhammad’s moral perfection, Muslims often maintain that Muhammad condemned the Arab culture for the prevalent immorality:

After spending his life in such chaste, pure and civilized manner, there comes a revolution in [Muhammad’s] being. He wearies of the darkness and ignorance, corruption, immorality, idolatry, and disorder which surround him on all sides. . . . He wants to get hold of that power with which he might bring about the downfall of the corrupt and disorderly world and lay the foundations of a new and better one. . . . He wanted to change the whole structure of society which had been handed down to them from time immemorial.[17]

Muslims are quick to point out immorality around the world, especially in the West. It seems, then, that they are suggesting a very inconsistent message. When confronted with an immoral practice in another culture, Muslims cry out in one accord, "We condemn these practices, for they are against the eternal, perfect, and unalterable Law of God!" Yet, whenever the moral character of Muhammad is being scrutinized, Muslims suddenly say, "Don’t judge Muhammad! You should remember that he was from a different culture! Marrying young girls was common in Arabia, and it still is, thanks to Muhammad’s precedent. Different people have different moral standards, so no one should worry about Muhammad’s sexual relationship with a nine-year-old girl."

This convenient switch from moral absolutism to moral relativism is logically unacceptable. If it is wrong to judge the practices of another culture, then both Muhammad and the Qur’an were wrong for condemning immoral practices in Arabia. But if condemning immoral practices is acceptable, then Muslim apologists need a better response to criticisms of Muhammad’s relationship with Aisha.

THIRD MUSLIM DEFENSE: Muhammad’s marriage to Aisha was part of God’s plan.

Muslim apologists have developed another answer to Muhammad’s critics, namely, that Muhammad’s marriage to Aisha was part of God’s divine plan (i.e. God had an important reason for it):

It should be borne in mind that, like all acts of the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him), even this marriage had a Divine purpose behind it. Hazrat Aisha was a precocious girl and was developing both in mind and body with rapidity peculiar to such rare personalities. She was admitted to the house of the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) just at the threshold of her puberty, the most impressionable and formative period of her life. It was the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) who nurtured her sensibilities and directed the growth of her faculties to the most fruitful channel and thus she was made to play an eminent role in the history of Islam. Moreover, she was the only virgin lady to enter the House of the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) and was thus very competent to share the feelings of other ladies of younger age who had numerous questions to ask from the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) with regard to sexual ethics and morality. These ladies felt shy of asking them through the elderly wives of the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) out of modesty. They could speak out their minds comparatively more freely to Aisha who was more or less of their own age group.[18]

Puberty is a biological sign which shows that a woman is capable of bearing children. Can anyone logically deny this? Part of the wisdom behind the Prophet Muhammad’s marriage to Aishah just after she reached puberty is to firmly establish this as a point of Islamic Law, even though it was already a cultural norm in all Semitic societies (including the one Jesus grew up in).[19]

Here Muslim apologists argue that Muhammad married Aisha for a divine purpose. Young girls who had questions about sex needed someone to talk to, and who better for this task than the young wife of the Prophet? Further, Muhammad wanted to establish puberty as an appropriate age for marriage, so he decided to demonstrate this rule by marrying Aisha.

RESPONSE: Muslims have failed to offer a sufficient reason for God to ordain the marriage.

There are numerous problems with this defense. First, such a response could be used to justify nearly any behavior. Consider a husband on trial for beating his wife. When he takes the stand, he explains, "Your Honor, many women are victims of spousal abuse, and they need someone to talk to. Out of the kindness of my heart, I decided to beat my wife, so that she would be able to comfort other women whose husbands beat them." Such an explanation would never be accepted (except, perhaps, in countries under Islamic rule, where the Qur’an guarantees a husband’s right to beat his wife[20]). Besides, if Muhammad had outlawed sex with children instead of becoming a willing participant, little girls wouldn’t have to worry about sex, and they wouldn’t need to question Aisha.

Second, it isn’t necessary for a lawgiver to institute laws by performing actions that create a precedent. In other words, Muhammad didn’t need to marry a young girl in order establish a law about marrying girls who had reached puberty. Muhammad, as Islam’s lawgiver, could have simply issued a decree. For instance, Muhammad allowed husbands to beat their wives. Was it necessary for Muhammad to beat his wives in order to establish this as a law? Certainly not. Similarly, when an American lawmaker says that killing someone in self-defense is acceptable, no one argues that the lawmaker must go out and kill someone in self-defense if his law is to stand. Hence, the argument that Muhammad needed to marry a young girl to establish puberty as the appropriate age for marriage completely fails.

Third, the Muslim claim that Aisha was a "precocious child" strains the evidence. Aisha herself reports that, when she was taken to Muhammad’s house, she was playing on a swing with her friends. She was also still playing with dolls. Based on the evidence, Aisha sounds like a normal little girl, not like a young adult. Besides, Muhammad didn’t marry her because she was precocious; he married her because he was dreaming about her.

Fourth, it is unlikely that God was using Muhammad’s relationship with Aisha to establish puberty as the appropriate age for marriage, since the Qur’an itself seems to allow marriage to prepubescent girls. According to Surah 65:4, a man must wait three months to divorce a wife who hasn’t yet reached menses. If Islam allows a man to divorce a girl who isn’t old enough to have her period, it follows that Islam also allows a man to marry a girl who hasn’t yet reached menses. And if the Qur’an allows marriage to prepubescent girls, then Muhammad’s marriage to Aisha would in no way rule out such a practice. (In the spirit of interpretive charity, I’m open to alternative interpretations of the Qur’an here. That is, I’m willing to give Muslims the benefit of the doubt if they offer another reasonable view of this passage. Based solely on 65:4, I would say that several interpretations of the text are possible. However, if we consider early Muslim commentaries on the verse, the understanding I give above appears strongest. To read these commentaries, click here.)

Fifth, Muslims search for reasons to justify Muhammad’s relationship with Aisha because they are convinced that everything Muhammad did had a divine purpose behind it. When critics point out Muhammad’s numerous murders and assassinations, Muslims claim that these violent acts were just. When critics note the extent of Muhammad’s polygamy, or his participation in the slave-trade, or his countless robberies,[21] Muslims provide answers based on the view that Muhammad was an outstanding moral example. Similarly, when Muslims are confronted with the evidence for Muhammad’s sexual encounters with Aisha, they assume that there must have been a reason for it. They then invent reasons for Muhammad’s behavior (i.e. the other little girls needed someone to talk to about sex), and they offer these reasons as a defense of Muhammad’s morality. However, non-Muslims do not share this confidence in Muhammad’s moral perfection. Indeed, when non-Muslims hear about Muhammad’s violence, his greed, his polygamy, and his support of spousal abuse, we aren’t as quick to say "He must have had a reason" as Muslims seem to be. Because of this, Muslim justifications for Muhammad’s marriage to Aisha sound hollow when presented as a logical defense of his actions.

Finally, Muslim explanations for Muhammad’s behavior fail to take into account the dangers that accompany sex at a young age. Many Muslims claim that, as soon as a young girl gets her first period, she is ready to bear children. This "old enough to bleed, old enough to breed" mentality, aside from being disgusting, is completely false. A nine-year-old girl isn’t ready for sex or children, even if she reaches menses earlier than other little girls. Children that young are still growing; when they become pregnant, their bodies divert nutritional resources to the developing fetus, depriving the growing girls of much-needed vitamins and minerals. Further, complications often result from adolescent pregnancies, because the bodies of the young girls simply aren’t ready to give birth.

The West has discerned the dangers posed by adolescent pregnancies. Muslim apologists often claim that marriage to young girls was common in biblical times. This may be correct, but it is because these marriages were part of the culture, not because God endorsed them. Whereas many Christian countries have recognized the potential harms brought on by pregnancies among adolescent girls and have raised the legal age for marriage, Muslim countries are often kept from such advancements because of Muhammad. This is very interesting, for Muslims often claim that Muhammad was scientifically enlightened and that the Qur’an is a scientific masterpiece.[22] In reality, Muhammad’s marriage to Aisha is injuring young girls across the Middle East and North Africa. The dangers have even been noted by the United Nations, which issued the following report in an attempt to curb the practices supported by Islam:

Traditional cultural practices reflect values and beliefs held by members of a community for periods often spanning generations. Every social grouping in the world has specific traditional cultural practices and beliefs, some of which are beneficial to all members, while others are harmful to a specific group, such as women. These harmful traditional practices include female genital mutilation (FGM); forced feeding of women; early marriage; the various taboos or practices which prevent women from controlling their own fertility; nutritional taboos and traditional birth practices; son preference and its implications for the status of the girl child; female infanticide; early pregnancy; and dowry price. Despite their harmful nature and their violation of international human rights laws, such practices persist because they are not questioned and take on an aura of morality in the eyes of those practicing them.

Child marriage robs a girl of her childhood-time necessary to develop physically, emotionally and psychologically. In fact, early marriage inflicts great emotional stress as the young woman is removed from her parents’ home to that of her husband and in-laws. Her husband, who will invariably be many years her senior, will have little in common with a young teenager. It is with this strange man that she has to develop an intimate emotional and physical relationship. She is obliged to have intercourse, although physically she might not be fully developed.

Health complications that result from early marriage in the Middle East and North Africa, for example, include the risk of operative delivery, low weight and malnutrition resulting from frequent pregnancies and lactation in the period of life when the young mothers are themselves still growing.

Early pregnancy can have harmful consequences for both young mothers and their babies. According to UNICEF, no girl should become pregnant before the age of 18 because she is not yet physically ready to bear children. Babies of mothers younger than 18 tend to be born premature and have low body weight; such babies are more likely to die in the first year of life. The risk to the young mother’s own health is also greater. Poor health is common among indigent pregnant and lactating women.

In many parts of the developing world, especially in rural areas, girls marry shortly after puberty and are expected to start having children immediately. Although the situation has improved since the early 1980’s, in many areas the majority of girls under 20 years of age are already married and having children. Although many countries have raised the legal age for marriage, this has had little impact on traditional societies where marriage and child-bearing confer "status" on a woman.

An additional health risk to young mothers is obstructed labor, which occurs when the baby’s head is too big for the orifice of the mother. This provokes vesicovaginal fistulas, especially when an untrained traditional birth attendant forces the baby’s head out unduly.[23]

Contrary to Muslim claims, a nine-year-old girl just isn’t ready for sexual intercourse or for its possible ramifications (i.e. pregnancy, giving birth, breast-feeding, and raising a child). It is unnecessarily dangerous, for a much safer relationship could be crafted if the marriage were to take place several years later, when the girl reaches her late teens. Muslims may respond to this by arguing, "But Aisha never became pregnant, so none of this matters." Yet it does matter. Every year, countless young girls, still playing with dolls, are taken to live with much older husbands. If these husbands were to be challenged, they wouldn’t respond by saying, "But it’s part of Arabic culture"; instead, they would reply, "It can’t be wrong, because Muhammad did it." In other words, even if we grant the bizarre claim that Aisha was somehow ready for sex and marriage, most nine-year-old girls aren’t ready for sex and marriage. Yet the practice of marrying children continues to this day in many Muslim countries, largely because Muslims hold up Muhammad as their highest role model.

FOURTH MUSLIM DEFENSE: The average lifespan in Muhammad’s day was so low that people had to marry young.

Osama Abdallah argues that Muhammad’s marriage to Aisha was understandable because people in Muhammad’s day needed to marry early:

Life 1400 years ago was very rough in the too hot desert. From my personal knowledge, the average life span back then was 50 years. People used to die from all kinds of diseases. Both parents of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) for instance, died natural deaths before he even knew them.[24]

On this view, since people could die at any time in the "hot desert," they would get married at a very early age to make sure they had as many years together as possible.

RESPONSE: Muhammad was already more than fifty years old when he consummated his marriage to Aisha, so there was no need for him to marry such a young girl.

Abdallah’s claim might make sense if Muhammad had been nine or ten years old when he married Aisha. But the Prophet of Islam was already well advanced in years. He was far closer to death than any young woman he might marry, so why not marry a young woman instead of a young girl? Why not marry a fully developed twenty-year-old instead of a little girl playing on a swing? By marrying Aisha when she was so young, Muhammad was, in effect, condemning her to a life of widowhood, for the Qur’an prohibited the marrying of Muhammad’s widows (33:53). Beyond all this, Abdallah’s argument ignores the facts. Muhammad didn’t marry Aisha because the average life span was fifty years old; instead, he married her because (1) he had been dreaming about her, and (2) he had the power to persuade Abu Bakr to give him his daughter in marriage.

FIFTH MUSLIM DEFENSE: Other people have done it too—even Christians!

Abdallah also employs an "everybody’s doing it, so it’s okay" defense:

Not only was it a custom in the Arab society to Engage/Marry a young girl, it was also common in the Jewish society. The case of Mary the mother of Jesus comes to mind. In non biblical sources she was between 11-14 years old when she conceived Jesus. Mary had already been "BETROTHED" to Joseph before conceiving Jesus. Joseph was a much older man. Therefore Mary was younger than 11-14 years of age when she was "BETHROED" to Joseph. We Muslims would never call Joseph a Child Molester, nor would we refer to the "Holy Ghost" of the Bible, that "Impregnated" Mary as a "Rapist" or "Adulterer.".[25]

RESPONSE: Besides committing the "tu quoque" fallacy, this defense misses the point of the criticism against Muhammad.

Tu quoque is a type of fallacy that attempts to ignore a criticism because of some hypocrisy found in the critic. For instance, suppose I’m a thief. One day, I catch someone stealing my car, and I say, "Stop, Thief!" If the person stealing my car turns to me and says, "But you’re a thief too, so it’s not wrong for me to steal," he will be committing the tu quoque fallacy.

Muslims rely heavily on the tu quoque. When people criticize Islam for terrorism, it’s common to hear Muslims say, "But Americans are killing Arabs!" as if this were a meaningful response to the charge. Likewise, when someone says, "Look at all the people Muhammad killed," Muslims respond by saying, "But people were killed in the Bible too."

To say that Joseph married a young girl in the Bible does nothing to address the problem of Muhammad’s marriage to Aisha. At best, such a defense would only show that Christians are being inconsistent. But in reality, the Muslim defense doesn’t even show this, since their comparison fails for several reasons.

First, there is no real historical data reporting the age of Mary when she married Joseph. True, given the custom of the time, she was probably fairly young, perhaps as young as twelve or thirteen. But since we have no historical references to her age, we can’t rule out the possibility that Mary was twenty years old. The point here is this: people criticize Muhammad’s marriage to Aisha based on what we know (i.e. that Aisha was nine years old), whereas Muslims reply based on what we don’t know (i.e. the age of Mary).

Second, we must not forget that thirteen years old is very different from nine years old. Nine-year-old girls typically haven’t reached menses. In a best case scenario, a girl that young may have entered the beginning stages of puberty. A thirteen-year-old girl, on the other hand, may be coming to the end of puberty. Thus, even if we grant a young age for Mary, there would still be a world of difference between her and Aisha.

Third, Muslim apologists seem to miss the fact that Joseph is not the standard of morality in Christianity. When critics point to the age of Aisha, they are arguing something like this: "You’re trying to tell me that Muhammad was the greatest moral example of all time and that I should believe everything he says? I can’t believe that a person who would have sex with a little girl was the greatest man ever." More simply, Muhammad is foundational to Islam. If there is a problem with Muhammad, there is a problem with Islam. If Muhammad was immoral, then it becomes difficult to take his teachings seriously. Thus, it makes no sense for a Muslim to say, "Well, Joseph married a young girl too." Joseph isn’t foundational to Christianity. If an ancient text were found tomorrow, and this ancient text proved that Joseph was a thief and a murderer, this wouldn’t affect Christianity at all, because Christians don’t consider him to be a prophet, or a bringer of revelation, or even an important figure in Christianity. Thus, if Muslims want to show that Christians are being inconsistent, they need to show that Jesus, or Peter, or Paul, or someone central to Christianity, did the things that Muhammad did. Fortunately, Jesus was sinless, and the apostles lived exemplary lives once they had committed themselves to Jesus.

The internet is filled with examples of Muslims responses of this sort. Muslim websites constantly note that young girls are married in various countries and that these young girls sometimes give birth. No one doubts this. The problem is that this has nothing to do with whether or not marriage to a nine-year-old girl is morally acceptable for a mighty prophet. The fact that Muslims are forced to resort to an "everyone’s doing it" defense shows that they have run out of responses.

Muhammad has been accused of pedophilia in numerous writings, sermons, and conversations. We have seen that the earliest Muslim traditions offer support for this view. However, the evidence sustaining the charge of pedophilia is perhaps too limited to warrant such a harsh conclusion. We know that Muhammad had a sexual relationship with a young girl, and that this was reprehensible. Yet we must take cultural differences into consideration in formulating an accurate appraisal of a person’s character. In Muhammad’s society, sexual intercourse was acceptable when a girl reached menses, and Muhammad may have waited until Aisha had reached this age. (Note: There’s no good historical evidence that Muhammad waited for Aisha to reach menses. However, I think it’s important to be generous in our interpretations as much as possible, so I’m willing to grant, for the sake of argument, that Aisha had reached puberty.)

Muslims are too hasty in dismissing Muhammad’s relationship with Aisha. We can’t simply ignore a prophet’s marriage to a nine-year-old girl. Muslims view Muhammad as the highest example of a moral life, but his marriage to Aisha conflicts with that view. If they want to put Muhammad forward as the standard of morality, Muslims need to come to terms with the many questionable things Muhammad did, as well as the awful impact of these actions.

There is a simple, but highly explicit, way to evaluate the importance of Muhammad’s marriage to Aisha. We must begin by trying to get a mental picture of a morally perfect man. For Muslims, this will include all the things they have been taught about Muhammad. According to their picture, he is kind, generous, patient, humble, and trustworthy. He protects orphans and widows, endures persecution, helps the needy, and promotes justice. He prays faithfully, fasts regularly, and obeys God in everything. He is loyal to his friends and patient with his enemies. He never gives in when tempted with evil. Now we must picture that same man in a room with an innocent little girl. He takes away her doll, climbs on top of her, and puts his penis inside her. She doesn’t know what is happening because she is too young to know much about sex. Frightened and confused, she cries because of the pain and bleeds on her bed, but she tries to remain quiet out of respect for her new husband, who, in return, endangers her life.

If a person is able to keep the same vision of moral perfection throughout that description, he may have the faith necessary to be a Muslim. But if his vision of the perfect man is at odds with what Muhammad did on numerous occasions, he will need to look elsewhere for an ideal human being.


Notes:

[1] Maulana Muhammad Ali, Muhammad the Prophet (St. Lambert: Payette and Sims, 1993), pp. 183-184.

[2] Sahih Al-Bukhari, Dr. Muhammad Matraji, tr. (New Delhi: Islamic Book Service, 2002), Number 5133. See also 5134.

[3] Ibid., Number 3896.

[4] Ibid., Number 5158.

[5] Sahih Muslim, Abdul Hamid Siddiqi, tr., Number 3310.

[6] Ibid, Number 3311.

[7] Sahih Al-Bukhari, Number 3895. See also Number 5078.

[8] Ibid., Number 5081.

[9] Ibid., Number 3894.

[10] Ibid., Number 5160.

[11] The Qur’an commands husbands to treat their wives equally (4:3), a command that Muhammad clearly violated. Of course, the same verse also forbids husbands to marry more than four women, but Muhammad received a revelation granting him immunity from this law (33:50).

[12] Ibid., Number 2581.

[13] Ibid., Number 2967.

[14] Ibid., Number 6130.

[15] Professor Maqsood Jafri, "On The Character of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)."

[16] Abdur Rahman Squires, "The Young Marriage of Aishah."

[17] Abul A’la Mawdudi, Towards Understanding Islam (Islamic Circle of North America, 1986), pp. 53, 56.

[18] Sahih Muslim, Note 1860 (p. 716).

[19] Squires, "The Young Marriage of Aishah."

[20] According to the Quran, "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great" (v. 4:34, M.H. Shakir Translation).

[21] For references, see "Islam Beheaded."

[22] For more on this, see "Talking Ants and Shrinking Humans."

[23] Office of the High Commissioner for Human rights, Fact Sheet No. 23, "Harmful Traditional Practices Affecting the Health of Women and Children." (Online source) The actual report is much longer than the selections quoted here.

[24] See http://www.answering-islam.com/aisha.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

[25] Ibid.

Re: AISYAH AGE WHEN MARRY

Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:19 pm
by MBenabdelkrim
OK about Aisha.

So the people that hate Islam love this subject, the marriage of Mohammad to Aisha, and the nice lady that posted this topic fell into the same mistake that all Muslims make, and that is to provide tons of evidence.

All I have to say in this subject is:

Can you please explain to me the logic behind calling Mohammad a pedophile for consumating his marriage with Aisha, but then site the story of Mariyah the Coptic and how Aisha was absolutely jealous of Mariyah?

I'm a man and I was sexually abused at the age of twelve, if I ever saw the guy that did it again I would probably kill him, So why did Aisha have intense jealousy towards Mariyah the Coptic women? Did Aisha love Mohammad? Would a sexually abused Girl love her abuser?

Re: AISYAH AGE WHEN MARRY

Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:41 pm
by Sten
MBenabdelkrim wrote:Would a sexually abused Girl love her abuser?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome
Stockholm Syndrome has also been explained in evolutionary terms. Historically raptio (e.g., Rape of the Sabine women) and bride kidnapping have been (and still are in some places) very common practices. Women who were kidnapped and consistently fought back were likely to be killed or imprisoned and thus not have children. But women who bonded with and submitted to their captors were more likely to have children and their children were more likely to receive the genes that made their mothers more passive and bonding towards their captors. And over several generations, this made the population of humans more genetically prone to submission and bonding when kidnapped.

The scientific aspect / refutting common arguments

Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:26 pm
by Ozes
Girls will menstruate at a younger age when having access to highly nutritious, quality foods, as well as staying free of any threatening illnesses. In 7th century Arabia the conditions could not have been as optimal as in the modern Western world. In a desert climate with primitive agriculture and livestock lacking quality controls, means nutrition will be below par. Without vaccines and high quality hygiene children will normally be affected by multiple diseases slowing down growth before reaching adulthood.

The chance that Aisha was menstruating at age 9 is for that reason even less likely then it is today for a girl of similar age in the modern West.Also one must keep in mind there is no sahih hadith claiming Aisha menstruating, had breast, a mature voice or was unusually tall for her age. There is no proof Aisha was anything more or less then a young small girl.

Image

Fig. 1. Data concerning onset of breast development, menarche and pubertal completion from 3 large studies (PROS, NHES, and NHANES) of pubertal age. Adapted from Lee PA, Guo SS, Kulin HE. Age of puberty: data from the United States of America. Acta Pathol Microbiol et Immunol Scand. In press. Used with the permission of the authors.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/c ... 107/6/1493

Image

These graphs show the likelyhood of a girl menstruating this early is very low.
More importantly, a girl menstruating does not mean she is fully grown and prepared for sexual contact. It usually takes a few months to two years before a young girl may be called fertile. In the beginning these girls do not have a steady cycle neither. Normally the full development of pubic hair, fully grown labia, a regular monthly cycle gives an indication to whether or not a girl is fully fertile. Most girls only reach their full lenght/height a few years after their first menstruation. The first menstruation is not the end of puberty, but somewhere in the middle.

The following is a post of Sir Galahad of FFI.
Equalling menstruation with female physical maturity is a popular mistake. There are still many people in the West who believe this is so. However, most girls who start menstruating do not have fully grown sexual characteristics. Their breasts have not yet stopped growing, their wombs have not fully matured and often the fat on their hips needed for a stable cycle is not yet sufficient. Often a girl is not able to conceive in the first months or even the first two years after her first menstruation. The start of menses is part of the process of physical maturation but it does not signify the end of this process.

Girls who have unprotected sexual intercourse and who become pregnant before they have fully matured physically run considerable risks. These risks are most severe if a girl is still rather small. This is usually the case if a girl is under twelve.
  • - Girls ages 10 to 14 are five times more likely to die in pregnancy or childbirth than women who are 20 to 24; while girls who are 15 to 19 are twice as likely to die.

    - Fistula is a health risk commonly associated with child marriage because of the mother's physical immaturity at the time of childbirth. A girl whose pelvis and birth canal are not fully developed at the time of delivery often endures labor that lasts for many hours or days. Unless emergency obstetric care is available, the pressure from the baby's head in the birth canal may cause tearing of the young mother's vagina, bladder and rectum, causing uncontrollable leakage of urine or feces.

    - Research findings indicate that younger adolescents have a higher risk of delivering babies with low birth weight and delivering prematurely than older adolescents and persons who are 20 to 34.
http://www.icrw.org/docs/childmarriage0803.pdf
Low birth weight is defined as infants weighing 5.5 pounds (2500 grams) or less at birth. These infants are more likely to die during their first year of life, and are at increased risk for a variety of health problems such as learning disabilities, seizures and chronic lung disease. Nationally, it has been estimated that about 35 percent of health care dollars spent on infants are for costs related to low birth weight.(1)
http://www.state.vt.us/health/lowbirth.htm
Low birth weight is not a good thing because:
  • - Low-birthweight babies are more than 20 times as likely to die in their first year of life as normal-weight babies.http://www.marchofdimes.com/professionals/681_1159.asp

    - a premature baby is at greater risk of developing breathing problems.

    - greater risk at brain damage “Bleeding in the brain (called periventricular and/or intraventricular hemorrhage) occurs in 10 to 50 percent of very-low-birthweight infants, usually in the first four days of life.”.

    - Some premature babies have a dangerous intestinal problem called necrotizing enterocolitis (NEC), which leads to feeding difficulties, abdominal swelling and other complications.

    - possible blindness. “Retinopathy of prematurity (ROP), caused by an abnormal growth of blood vessels in the eye that can lead to vision loss.”
    http://www.modimes.org/professionals/681_1153.asp
Even if a girl does not become pregnant there are still considerable risks: Nine-year-old females are not mature adults, even if they have had their first menses. They are not mature intellectually, physically or emotionally; they are children. If they are subjected to intercourse and pregnancy they run considerable risks.

Young children are not meant to have sex. They do not have a sex drive and they are not sexually attractive to most adults. There is a reason why a 20-year-old female is called "a woman" and a nine-year-old is called "a little girl". If having sex with young girls were natural and right, young girls and their children would not be more likely to die, develop medical complications and/or emotional problems than women over 20 who give birth.

A legal system of a given country may allow youngsters under sixteen or even ten to marry. Cultures and religious systems may approve. Nevertheless, a father who marries off his nine-year-old daughter is not acting in her best interests and he is not acting in the best interests of his potential grand children.
All other information came to me via Hector and Linda Danvers of the Dutch forum.

Re: AISYAH AGE WHEN MARRY

Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:23 pm
by MBenabdelkrim
Sten wrote:
MBenabdelkrim wrote:Would a sexually abused Girl love her abuser?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome
Stockholm Syndrome has also been explained in evolutionary terms. Historically raptio (e.g., Rape of the Sabine women) and bride kidnapping have been (and still are in some places) very common practices. Women who were kidnapped and consistently fought back were likely to be killed or imprisoned and thus not have children. But women who bonded with and submitted to their captors were more likely to have children and their children were more likely to receive the genes that made their mothers more passive and bonding towards their captors. And over several generations, this made the population of humans more genetically prone to submission and bonding when kidnapped.
OK, that might explain the relationship one way.

Would the Prophet endow the title of "Mother of all the faithful" on someone he considered a captive??

Re: AISYAH AGE WHEN MARRY

Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 4:25 pm
by Ozes
What i respect about Aisha is that in several hadith's she seems to see trough Muhammed. Everytime Muhammed needed a Surah to appear to solve his problems such as muslims questioning him, the surah came. Aisha clearly saw Muhammed as a cunning opportunist.Indeed she is the beaten and abused mother of all muslims, not knowing how to stop the suffering of her children.

Re: AISYAH AGE WHEN MARRY

Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:50 pm
by pr126
For many centuries Aisha's age was not a problem.

Suddenly Muslim going into overdrive to damage control Islam's image.
In fact, Garudaman is drawing attention to it, and it would be better for him, and for Islam if he could just keep quiet about it.

But, he is not that clever. Instead he makes up stories, expecting people to believe them.
Displaying Islam's dirty laundry for all to see.

Re: AISYAH AGE WHEN MARRY

Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:28 pm
by MBenabdelkrim
Ozes wrote:What i respect about Aisha is that in several hadith's she seems to see trough Muhammed. Everytime Muhammed needed a Surah to appear to solve his problems such as muslims questioning him, the surah came. Aisha clearly saw Muhammed as a cunning opportunist.Indeed she is the beaten and abused mother of all muslims, not knowing how to stop the suffering of her children.
What a travesty, you should retire. Aisha did not have any kids. Plus read this.

Muhammad did his own household chores and helped with housework, such as preparing food, sewing clothes and repairing shoes. He is also said to have had accustomed his wives to dialogue; he listened to their advice, and the wives debated and even argued with him.

Sources:
Tariq Ramadan (2007), p. 168–9
Asma Barlas (2002), p. 125
Armstrong (1992), p. 157

You know, debating amateurs is getting boring.

Re: AISYAH AGE WHEN MARRY

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:34 am
by Sten
MBenabdelkrim wrote:
Sten wrote:
MBenabdelkrim wrote:Would a sexually abused Girl love her abuser?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome
Stockholm Syndrome has also been explained in evolutionary terms. Historically raptio (e.g., Rape of the Sabine women) and bride kidnapping have been (and still are in some places) very common practices. Women who were kidnapped and consistently fought back were likely to be killed or imprisoned and thus not have children. But women who bonded with and submitted to their captors were more likely to have children and their children were more likely to receive the genes that made their mothers more passive and bonding towards their captors. And over several generations, this made the population of humans more genetically prone to submission and bonding when kidnapped.
OK, that might explain the relationship one way.

Would the Prophet endow the title of "Mother of all the faithful" on someone he considered a captive??
What kind of a question is that? By the definition of Stockholm Syndrome I provided, the difference between a wife and a captive, in Mohammad's eyes, was almost non-existent. Mohammad didn't see anything wrong with marrying a little girl who was still playing with dolls, so why wouldn't he have bestowed grandiose titles upon her? He didn't consider her a captive, he considered her a wife - but that doesn't mean she was a wife by our definition of the word. I don't remember reading that he ever gave her responsibilities or let her make large important decisions, or anything that would indicate that she was more than a glorified sex slave.

Just because someone is nice to a captive or slave, does not elevate their status. Mohammad "married" Ayesha before she was old enough to even know what consent was, let alone give consent to marrying someone more than five times her age. That would make her a captive, by definition.

Re: AISYAH AGE WHEN MARRY

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:00 am
by Ozes
MBenabdelkrim wrote:
Ozes wrote:What i respect about Aisha is that in several hadith's she seems to see trough Muhammed. Everytime Muhammed needed a Surah to appear to solve his problems such as muslims questioning him, the surah came. Aisha clearly saw Muhammed as a cunning opportunist.Indeed she is the beaten and abused mother of all muslims, not knowing how to stop the suffering of her children.
What a travesty, you should retire. Aisha did not have any kids. Plus read this.

Muhammad did his own household chores and helped with housework, such as preparing food, sewing clothes and repairing shoes. He is also said to have had accustomed his wives to dialogue; he listened to their advice, and the wives debated and even argued with him.

Sources:
Tariq Ramadan (2007), p. 168–9
Asma Barlas (2002), p. 125
Armstrong (1992), p. 157

You know, debating amateurs is getting boring.
Its Muslims who call her the mother of all believers, thats what i answered too. I'm well aware the pedophile Muhammed was not able to get any children, despite trying the best he can. He tried rape, he tried pedophilia, nothing worked. And indeed i know, debating amateurs is boring, at least the level of some arguments is so low its humorous.

I found out today i shouldn't worry about all the misogynist verses in the quran, as a verse about a bee proofs Muhammed was a champion for womans right. A verse about a bee proofs Muhammed is the forefather of feminism.

You should get some better sources dude, tariq ramadan is a known deceiver and friend of terrorists, i thought you guys didn't want me to pay attention to the 'bad apples" in Islam?

Re: AISYAH AGE WHEN MARRY

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:16 am
by MBenabdelkrim
OK, again, I'm an atheist.

Mohammad had many Kids, read before you speak.

Mohammad was able to start a religion that spread farther than your mom's bottom lips. Now that's telling.

If Ali Sina can make such outlandish claims, we all can.

Re: AISYAH AGE WHEN MARRY

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:43 am
by Idesigner
Ozes wrote:
MBenabdelkrim wrote:
Ozes wrote:What i respect about Aisha is that in several hadith's she seems to see trough Muhammed. Everytime Muhammed needed a Surah to appear to solve his problems such as muslims questioning him, the surah came. Aisha clearly saw Muhammed as a cunning opportunist.Indeed she is the beaten and abused mother of all muslims, not knowing how to stop the suffering of her children.
What a travesty, you should retire. Aisha did not have any kids. Plus read this.

Muhammad did his own household chores and helped with housework, such as preparing food, sewing clothes and repairing shoes. He is also said to have had accustomed his wives to dialogue; he listened to their advice, and the wives debated and even argued with him.

Sources:
Tariq Ramadan (2007), p. 168–9
Asma Barlas (2002), p. 125
Armstrong (1992), p. 157

You know, debating amateurs is getting boring.
Its Muslims who call her the mother of all believers, thats what i answered too. I'm well aware the pedophile Muhammed was not able to get any children, despite trying the best he can. He tried rape, he tried pedophilia, nothing worked. And indeed i know, debating amateurs is boring, at least the level of some arguments is so low its humorous.

I found out today i shouldn't worry about all the misogynist verses in the quran, as a verse about a bee proofs Muhammed was a champion for womans right. A verse about a bee proofs Muhammed is the forefather of feminism.

You should get some better sources dude, tariq ramadan is a known deceiver and friend of terrorists, i thought you guys didn't want me to pay attention to the 'bad apples" in Islam?
According to islamic sources , two daughters of Mohemmed by his first wife Khadija survived. One was the most well known Fatima, mother of all Shia muslims as they revere the line through Hussain, those 12 +1 shias.There were other children Khadija gave him but they all died in childhood. Why? Allah knows best.

Mohmmed aslo had one son name Ishmael through his Egyptian wife or cocubine. He died in few days after birth. Why Allah didnot give him male child. Only Allah knows !! :D Some Medinan followers doubted paternity of Ishmael. Lots of gossips were making round about character of Egyptian coptic slave cocubine called Mariam.. Remember how Abu Bakr made that egyptian slave naked ( by taking aim with arrow when guy was climbing date palm tree) and prove that he cant be father of the would be child as the slave was Enuch when his loin cloth fell off.. May be Abu Bakr did the job.Only Allah knows. :roll: