The age of Ayesha

The rights of, or lack thereof, and problems faced by women in Islam
antineoETC
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Re: The age of Ayesha

Post by antineoETC »



What this fellow is saying is that "those who have not menstruated. (in Quran chapter 65, verse 4) refers NOT to prepubescent females who haven't yet started their periods, but to normally menstruating post-pubertal females who haven't yet had their usual monthly menstrual blood flow.
"Prophet Muhammad...bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves" SOURCE: BBC website
"Muhammad is considered to be a perfect model" SOURCE: BBC website
frankie
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Re: The age of Ayesha

Post by frankie »

The final say re pre pubescent Islamic marriage goes to Muslim scholarship and all agree that marriage and divorce to pre pubescent children is acceptable, even TODAY.

Child marriage is now known to damage children biologically and psychologically, as well as society, it is therefore not good guidance or beneficial to anyone.

Islam proves yet again to originate from the carnal mind of fallible men, whose only interest was to take as much pleasure as they could from those they deemed "deficient in intelligence and religion" Sahih Bukhari 1:6:301

Domestic animals:

Tabari Vol 9, pages 112-113 –
"Treat women well, for they are [like] domestic animals with you and do not possess anything for themselves."

and Tilth:

QS 2:223

Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will; but do some good act for your souls beforehand; and fear Allah. And know that ye are to meet Him (in the Hereafter), and give (these) good tidings to those who believe.

Abu Dawood 11:2138
Narrated Mu’awiyah ibn Haydah: I said: Apostle of Allah, how should we approach our wives and how should we leave them? He replied: Approach your tilth when or how you will, give her (your wife) food when you take food, clothe when you clothe yourself.



65.4 Abbas - Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs
(And for such of your women as despair of menstruation) because of old age, (if ye doubt) about their waiting period, (their period (of waiting) shall be three months) upon which another man asked: “O Messenger of Allah! What about the waiting period of those who do not have menstruation because they are too young?” (along with those who have it not) because of young age, their waiting period is three months. Another man asked: “what is the waiting period for those women who are pregnant?” (And for those with child) i.e. those who are pregnant, (their period) their waiting period (shall be till they bring forth their burden) their child. (And whosoever keepeth his duty to Allah) and whoever fears Allah regarding what he commands him, (He maketh his course easy for him) He makes his matter easy; and it is also said this means: He will help him to worship Him well.


65.4 Jalal - Al-Jalalayn
And [as for] those of your women who (read allā’ī or allā’i in both instances) no longer expect to menstruate, if you have any doubts, about their waiting period, their prescribed [waiting] period shall be three months, and [also for] those who have not yet menstruated, because of their young age, their period shall [also] be three months — both cases apply to other than those whose spouses have died; for these [latter] their period is prescribed in the verse: they shall wait by themselves for four months and ten [days] [Q. 2:234]. And those who are pregnant, their term, the conclusion of their prescribed [waiting] period if divorced or if their spouses be dead, shall be when they deliver. And whoever fears God, He will make matters ease for him, in this world and in the Hereafter.


65.4-5 Kathir - Ibn Al Kathir
The `Iddah of Those in Menopause and Those Who do not have Menses
Allah the Exalted clarifies the waiting period of the woman in menopause. And that is the one whose menstruation has stopped due to her older age. Her `Iddah is three months instead of the three monthly cycles for those who menstruate, which is based upon the Ayah in (Surat) Al-Baqarah. see 2:228 The same for the young, who have not reached the years of menstruation. Their `Iddah is three months like those in menopause.

BOOK OF WEDLOCK BUKHARI CHAPTER 39 NUMBER 5133
39)
Chapter: Giving one's young children in marriage
Narrated `Aisha:
that the Prophet (ﷺ) married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).



Aisha was playing with her dolls when Mohammed took her for his bride, and dolls are forbidden for adults in Islam, but not for children.



Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151
Narrated 'Aisha:
I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)



In the sections of marriage and divorce of the Reliance of the Traveller, the word “prepubescent” is used in both categories of marriage and divorce.
If the age of the female for marriage was not important in Islam, then the word prepubescent should not appear, it only appears because Mohammed married a prepubescent girl, and his Sunnah is codified within Islamic law, which is why it is contained in the Reliance of the Traveller for all Muslims to refer to, to ensure they follow Mohammed’s example correctly.


Marriage
m8.2 A guardian may not marry his prepubescent daughter to someone for less than the amount typically received as marriage payment by similar brides, nor marry his prepubescent son to a female who is given more than the amount typically received. If he does either of these, the amount stipulated is void and the amount typically received is paid instead (O: in both these cases, as a necessary condition for the validity of the marriage contract


Book N: Divorce
n9.0 A Woman’s Post Marital Waiting Period (‘Idda)
n9.2 page 567 A waiting period for a woman divorced after intercourse, whether the husband and wife are prepubescent, have reached puberty, or one has and the other has not.
n9.9 page 569 The waiting period for a woman who does not menstruate, whether prepubescent or postmenopausal, is three months.
antineoETC
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Re: The age of Ayesha

Post by antineoETC »

antineoETC wrote:What this fellow is saying is that "those who have not menstruated. (in Quran chapter 65, verse 4) refers NOT to prepubescent females who haven't yet started their periods, but to normally menstruating post-pubertal females who haven't yet had their usual monthly menstrual blood flow.
If this is the correct interpretation then it could not be said that the Quran alone allows sexual activity with prepubescent girls. It would also mean that, unless Muhammad was deliberately flouting a commandment of Allah, Ayesha was already having her periods when Muhammad allegedly "consummated" his marriage to her when she was 9 years old.

This is not impossible. There is, after all, a condition called precocious puberty. However, without the hadith establishing a lower age-limit of 9 for the permissibility of a 50+ year old man having sex with a child there is, as Muhammad Hijab asserts, no lower age limit.

It could, of course, reasonably be argued by a Quran-alone Muslim that Allah has not set an age limit because it goes without saying that a female should not have sex until she is clearly sufficiently physically and psychologically mature, which could never be the case with a 9 year-old regardless of whether she has started her periods.
"Prophet Muhammad...bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves" SOURCE: BBC website
"Muhammad is considered to be a perfect model" SOURCE: BBC website
antineoETC
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Re: The age of Ayesha

Post by antineoETC »

frankie wrote:The final say re pre pubescent Islamic marriage goes to Muslim scholarship and all agree that marriage and divorce to pre pubescent children is acceptable, even TODAY.
The trouble is we are constantly encountering Muslims who claim that they don't agree with the scholars' rulings, that the scholars' rulings are wrong, that only the Quran and hadith or the Quran alone are Islamically valid guidance...
"Prophet Muhammad...bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves" SOURCE: BBC website
"Muhammad is considered to be a perfect model" SOURCE: BBC website
frankie
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Re: The age of Ayesha

Post by frankie »

antineoETC wrote:
Sat Feb 19, 2022 12:10 pm
frankie wrote:The final say re pre pubescent Islamic marriage goes to Muslim scholarship and all agree that marriage and divorce to pre pubescent children is acceptable, even TODAY.
The trouble is we are constantly encountering Muslims who claim that they don't agree with the scholars' rulings, that the scholars' rulings are wrong, that only the Quran and hadith or the Quran alone are Islamically valid guidance...
antineoETC

The best Muslims scholar for Muslims is Mohammed, and he obeyed Allah in all things Islamic.

Mohammed "married" a pre pubescent child, still playing with dolls, Allah did not correct his actions, he condoned them.

Which ever way Muslims want to look at this, pre pubescent child child marriage is acceptable today in Islam, their role model prophet did it, he obeyed Allah, case closed.
antineoETC
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Re: The age of Ayesha

Post by antineoETC »

Frankie wrote:antineoETC

The best Muslims scholar for Muslims is Mohammed, and he obeyed Allah in all things Islamic.

Mohammed "married" a pre pubescent child, still playing with dolls, Allah did not correct his actions, he condoned them.

Which ever way Muslims want to look at this, pre pubescent child child marriage is acceptable today in Islam, their role model prophet did it, he obeyed Allah, case closed.
Imagine you are sitting in a cafe with a Muslim you have just met there. With him is his girlfriend who, you learn, is a non-Muslim on the verge of converting to Islam. She tells you how she has been learning about the religion from books and videos her boyfriend provided her with, and that this material had completely changed her view of Islam as a violent, intolerant, misogynistic faith. The scientific miracles in the Quran particularly impressed her, she says. It soon becomes clear to you that she knows nothing about Islam and its prophet that she needs to know, and hasn't even read the Quran. So you subtly introduce the subject of Ayesha into the conversation which leads to the matter of her age when Muhammad allegedly wed and consummated his marriage to her. She is visibly surprised and shocked by this information and looks to her boyfriend for a response. It is after all the sort of information that could make a person think again before becoming Muslim. Fortunately, he does not start claiming that Ayesha was 19, not 9, years old when Muhammad first engaged in sexual activity with her. However, he does claim that girls in those days matured much earlier, particularly under the desert sun of Arabia, and that 9-year-old Ayesha would have therefore been a post-pubertal young woman having regular periods. You ask for evidence for this and he replies that it goes without saying that a prophet of Allah and perfect role model, which Muhammad undoubtedly was, would never engage in something so disgusting as sex with a prepubertal child. You point out that Quran 65.4 appears to allow sex with girls who have never menstruated ie are prepubescent but he asserts that it merely refers to fully mature women awaiting their next period. You counter that the rulings of shariah and of Muslim scholars, as well as the ongoing widespread practice in the Muslim world, suggests otherwise. To this he responds that, while it is regrettable that some people do indeed warp the teachings of religion for their own perverted ends, this should not reflect badly on the religion itself.

Anyway, you notice the time and have to take your leave.

A few days later you are sitting in the same cafe and the same couple walk in, but this time the woman is dressed in full hijab. Clearly your efforts had failed to sway her from the path she was on and she had been won over by her boyfriend's arguments.

How could you have achieved a different outcome?
"Prophet Muhammad...bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves" SOURCE: BBC website
"Muhammad is considered to be a perfect model" SOURCE: BBC website
frankie
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Re: The age of Ayesha

Post by frankie »

1)The mention of Aisha playing with dolls in the hadith proves she was pre pubescent.Dolls are only allowed for children in Islam, not adults.

2)QS 65.4 Al Jalalayan Ibn Abbas and Ibn Kathir all affirm " those who have not yet menstruated because of their young age" proving marriage and divorce of pre pubescent girls is lawful in Islam.

3)The claim girls matured earlier in the 7th century is no defense against Allah's words and Mohammed's example,both of which prove pre pubescent marriage ( and divorce) is lawful in Islam.

If all these Islamic facts are mentioned,and still ignored,then there is little else that can be done if the woman is intent on marriage with this Muslim man.

Your case scenario is a common one sadly, in regards to non Muslim women who are ignorant of the Islamic faith and how they will be treated in a Muslim marriage.
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pr126
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Re: The age of Ayesha

Post by pr126 »

What if I told you that

Islam & Mecca are Historical FABRICATIONS!



According to research, the hadiths are also fabricated 200 years later from when Islam was supposed to have started.
Therefore all arguments about Aisha, Muhammad are questionable. They may have never existed, it was all made up hundreds of years later and thousands of miles from the Hijaz, Bukhari's hadith were "compiled" in Bukhara (now Uzbekistan) in the 9th century.
The Sira (Muhammads bio) was "invented" by Ibn Hisham 210 years after Muhammad's alleged death.

Makes one think about the Standard Islamic Narrative (SIN)
Multiculturalism: Where different cultures are forced together to despise and hate each other.
antineoETC
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Re: The age of Ayesha

Post by antineoETC »

pr126 wrote:According to research, the hadiths are also fabricated
That's what the "Quran-only" Muslims have been saying for years. Without the hadith, I would not say there is unambiguous Quranic justification for what the hadith say Muhammad did. The problem the Quran-only lot have is that without hadith to explain them away the Quran is riddled with contradictions and therefore, by its own say so, cannot be from Allah.

When they realise this they may switch to partial, selective hadith denial.
"Prophet Muhammad...bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves" SOURCE: BBC website
"Muhammad is considered to be a perfect model" SOURCE: BBC website
antineoETC
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Re: The age of Ayesha

Post by antineoETC »

"Prophet Muhammad...bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves" SOURCE: BBC website
"Muhammad is considered to be a perfect model" SOURCE: BBC website
antineoETC
Posts: 2690
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 10:53 am

Re: The age of Ayesha

Post by antineoETC »

"Prophet Muhammad...bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves" SOURCE: BBC website
"Muhammad is considered to be a perfect model" SOURCE: BBC website
antineoETC
Posts: 2690
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 10:53 am

Re: The age of Ayesha

Post by antineoETC »

"Prophet Muhammad...bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves" SOURCE: BBC website
"Muhammad is considered to be a perfect model" SOURCE: BBC website
antineoETC
Posts: 2690
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 10:53 am

Re: The age of Ayesha

Post by antineoETC »

"Prophet Muhammad...bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves" SOURCE: BBC website
"Muhammad is considered to be a perfect model" SOURCE: BBC website
antineoETC
Posts: 2690
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 10:53 am

Re: The age of Ayesha

Post by antineoETC »

"Prophet Muhammad...bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves" SOURCE: BBC website
"Muhammad is considered to be a perfect model" SOURCE: BBC website
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