Spirituality -A Garden of Wisdom (continued)

Here you can discuss anything that you may find thought provoking, which does not fit in any other category.
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The Cat
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Spirituality -A Garden of Wisdom (continued)

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Link to the first thread:
Spirituality -A Garden of Wisdom: Jiddu Krishnamurti
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12205" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A Word on the First Part...
The first page of the former thread has many links, plus a resume of all 52 pages, AND a direct link to every five pages, for convenience. Food for though to enjoy! The thread started in the Holiday Forum, unavailable actually, and I did recover it in the 2004/2008 forum. The former thread has been unfittingly published in the Miscellaneous main and the topic is only distantly related to the God or Religion Mains.
So, I've decided to published it herein. I hope the folks will cross-over...

Best to summarize it, is my welcoming to IamThat in its last (p.52) page: High IamThat, welcome into the Garden, a most unusual thread at FFI forum focusing on spirituality and wisdom (as apart from any organized religion). Looking through its pages, you'll find topics covering the whole world of spirituality (enlightenment) like the obvious hyphen between the Christian Holy Spirit, the Judaic Shekinah, the Buddhist Bodhi (or Japanese Satori); the Zoroastrian Spenta Mainyu, the Hindu Paramatman (Vedic Agni) up to the yogist Kundalin.

Krishnamurti is only one author quoted here among many others, from Lao Tse to William Blake; Buddha & Confucius to H.D. Thoreau & R.W. Emerson; Thiruvalluvar to Vivekananda; from R. Maharishi to Kahlil Gibran, or Thomas Jefferson to Anthony de Mello; Plotinus up to the Dalai-Lama, etc. You're welcome to bring in whatever is related to wisdom and spirituality
.

In May 2007, it had received 25,000 hits, more than doubling next October, although I didn't post much. It now has 59,919 entries and keeping on while frozen. Most of the time, I've been posting all alone, but the continuing affluence indicated me that it was alright just like that!

For a bridge, I'll reproduce something from Krishnamurti: On Being Religious (much longer, page 50):
Can we discover for ourselves what the religious mind is? The scientist in his laboratory is really a scientist; he is not persuaded by his nationalism, by his fears, by his vanities, ambitions, and local demands; there, he is merely investigating. But outside the laboratory, he is like anybody else with his prejudices, with his ambitions, with his nationality, with his vanities, with his jealousies, and all the rest of it. Such a mind cannot approach the religious mind.

The religious mind does not function from a center of authority, whether it is accumulated knowledge as tradition, or it is experience, which is really the continuation of tradition, the continuation of conditioning. The religious spirit does not think in terms of time, the immediate results, the immediate reformation within the pattern of society. ...We said the religious mind is not a ritualistic mind; it does not belong to any church, to any group, to any pattern of thinking.

The religious mind is the mind that has entered into the unknown, and you cannot come to the unknown except by jumping; you cannot carefully calculate and enter the unknown. The religious mind is the real revolutionary mind, and the revolutionary mind is not a reaction to what has been. The religious mind is really explosive, creative; not in the accepted sense of the word creative, as in a poem, decoration, or building, as in architecture, music, poetry, and all the rest of it. It’s in a state of creation. (...)

--A man who believes in God can never find God. If you are open to reality, there can be no belief in reality. If you are open to the unknown, there can be no belief in it. After all, belief is a form of self-protection, and only a petty mind can believe in God. Look at the belief of the aviators during the war who said God was their companion as they were dropping bombs! So you believe in God when you kill, when you are exploiting people. You worship God and go on ruthlessly extorting money, supporting the army, yet you say you believe in mercy, compassion, kindliness.

As long as belief exists, there can never be the unknown; you cannot think about the unknown, thought cannot measure it. The mind is the product of the past, it is the result of yesterday, and can such a mind be open to the unknown? It can only project an image, but that projection is not real; so your god is not God: it is an image of your own making, an image of your own gratification.

There can be reality only when the mind understands the total process of itself and comes to an end. When the mind is completely empty -only then is it capable of receiving the unknown. The mind is not purged until it understands the content of relationship -its relationship- with property, with people until it has established the right relationship with everything.

Until it understands the whole process of conflict in relationship, the mind cannot be free. Only when the mind is wholly silent, completely inactive, not projecting, when it is not seeking and is utterly still only then that which is eternal and timeless comes into being.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiddu_Krishnamurti" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As I've written to IamThat, page 52 (itself loaded, beginning with the Egyptian Ma'at 42 Principles):
HARMONY. Harmony is the Alpha & Omega of true spirituality, where opposites co-exist.
As such, nothing is more practical than the inner wisdom of its out bounding way by.
Getting into the second part...
Last edited by The Cat on Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:52 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

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Re: Spirituality -A Garden of Wisdom (continued)

Post by charleslemartel »

A beautiful prose to read and ponder.

Would you, however, call such a still and empty mind religious? :)
Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.

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Re: Spirituality -A Garden of Wisdom (continued)

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Sunrise from Apollo XII (November, 1969)
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Picture NASA: http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap960620.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Conscience is etymologically related with science. The former, tending to see the universal in the particular, is only the other side of the later, which tends to explain the particular in a universal frame. As Louis Pasteur wrote: ''A little science may get one away from God, but a lot of science will bring you closer'' (quoting from memory), as this other one may perfectly fits both issues too: “In the fields of observation chance favors only the prepared mind.” So to be 'conscious' is a basic in both science and spirituality...

To observe without prejudices, as in science or spirituality, belongs to the field of the Socratic under-standing from: ''I don't know''.

I'll open this second part with quotes from two mystics, namely Meister Eckhart and Swami Vivekananda who, it is said, inspired Nicola Tesla's blazing inventions while in the USA. All sages and mystics rather say the same thing, through times, in their own particular wordings...

Meister Eckhart (1260-1328)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meister_Eckhart" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

--A human being has so many skins inside, covering the depths of the heart. We know so many things, but we don't know ourselves! Why, thirty or forty skins or hides, as thick and hard as an ox's or bear's, cover the soul. Go into your own ground and learn to know yourself there.

--Every creature is a word of God.

--God expects but one thing of you, and that is that you should come out of yourself in so far as you are a created being made and let God be God in you.

--God is at home; it is we who have gone for a walk.

--He who would be serene and pure needs but one thing, detachment.

--If the only prayer you ever say in your entire life is thank you, it will be enough.

--One person who has mastered life is better than a thousand persons who have mastered only the contents of books, but no one can get anything out of life without God.

--Only the hand that erases can write the true thing.

--The more we have the less we own.

--The knower and the known are one. Simple people imagine that they should see God as if he stood there and they here. This is not so. God and I, we are one in knowledge.

--There exists only the present instant... a Now which always and without end is itself new. There is no yesterday nor any tomorrow, but only Now, as it was a thousand years ago and as it will be a thousand years hence.

--To be full of things is to be empty of God. To be empty of things is to be full of God.

--What a man takes in by contemplation, that he pours out in love.

--We shall find God in everything alike, and find God always alike in everything.

--A man may go into the field and say his prayer and be aware of God, or, he may be in Church and be aware of God; but, if he is more aware of Him because he is in a quiet place, that is his own deficiency and not due to God, Who is alike present in all things and places, and is willing to give Himself everywhere so far as lies in Him. He knows God rightly who knows Him everywhere.

--Truth is something so noble that if God could turn aside from it, I could keep the truth and let God go.
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Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

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Re: Spirituality -A Garden of Wisdom (continued)

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charleslemartel wrote:A beautiful prose to read and ponder.

Would you, however, call such a still and empty mind religious? :)
Welcome into the Garden, charlesmartel. Be my guest...

Is a mind full of rhetorics, mantras, rituals and sectarian beliefs can truly be religious?
Religiosity, for what it worths, has been quite underlined in following Vivekananda's...
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

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Re: Spirituality -A Garden of Wisdom (continued)

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Food for thought: Swami Vivekananda.
To be religious is world apart from practicing a particular religion.
You simply can't be religious and be chained to your conditioning.

Vivekananda and Tiruvalluvar's Memorials, Kanyakumari, Cape Comarin, India.
More on them, page 48 of the former thread...
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Picture from: http://www.bharathvoyage.com/photos_south_india.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Swami Vivekanada (1863-1902)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swami_Vivekananda" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.vivekananda.org/quotes.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

---All differences in this world are of degree, and not of kind, because oneness is the secret of everything.

---If a piece of burning charcoal be placed on a man’s head, see how he struggles to throw it off. Similar will be the struggle for freedom of those who really understand that they are slaves of nature.

---It is only by doing good to others that one attains to one's own good.

---Thank God for giving you this world as a moral gymnasium to help your development, but never imagine you can help the world.

---If superstition enters, the brain is gone. Superstition is our great enemy, but bigotry is worse.

---To devote your life to the good of all and to the happiness of all is religion. Whatever you do for your own sake is not religion.

---The greatest religion is to be true to your own nature. Have faith in yourselves!

---There is to be found in every religion the manifestation of the struggle toward freedom. It is the groundwork of all morality, of unselfishness.

---No authority can save us, no beliefs. If there is a God, all can find Him. No one needs to be told it is warm; all can discover it for themselves. So it should be with God. He should be a fact in the consciousness of every person.

---Pray all the time, read all the scriptures in the world, and worship all the gods there are ...but unless you realize the Truth, there is no freedom.

---True religion is not talk, or doctrines, or theories, nor is it sectarianism. It is the relation between soul and God. Religion does not consist in erecting temples, or building churches, or attending public worship. It is not to be found in books, or in words, or in lectures, or in organizations. Religion consists in realization. We must realize God, feel God, see God, talk to God. That is religion.

---The moment I have realized God sitting in the temple of every human body, the moment I stand in reverence before every human being and see God in him - that moment I am free from bondage, everything that binds vanishes, and I am free.

---After every happiness comes misery; they may be far apart or near. The more advanced the soul, the more quickly does one follow the other. What we want is neither happiness nor misery. Both make us forget our true nature; both are chains--one iron, one gold; behind both is the Atman, who knows neither happiness nor misery. These are states, and states must ever change; but the nature of the Atman is bliss, peace, unchanging. We have not to get it, we have it; only wash away the dross and see it.

---Are you unselfish? That is the question. If you are, you will be perfect without reading a single religious book, without going into a single church or temple.

---Fear is death, fear is sin, fear is hell, fear is unrighteousness. All the negative thoughts and ideas that are in this world have proceeded from this evil spirit of fear.

---The moment you fear, you are nobody. It is fear that is the greatest cause of misery in the world. It is fear that is the greatest of all superstitions. It is fear that is the cause of our woes, and it is fearlessness that brings heaven in a moment.

---The more we grow in love and virtue and holiness, the more we see love and virtue and holiness outside. All condemnation of others really condemns ourselves. Adjust the microcosm (which is in your power to do) and the macrocosm will adjust itself for you.

---Just as the law of gravitation existed before its discovery, and would exist if all humanity forgot it, so is it with the laws that govern the spiritual world.

---The conquest of evil comes by the change in the subjective alone.
Image
Picture: http://www.ifp.uiuc.edu/~asethi/photos/album1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

---Realize yourself. That is all there is to do. Know yourself as you are—infinite spirit. That is practical religion. Everything else is impractical, for everything else will vanish.

---Religion has no business to formulate social laws and insist on the difference between beings, because its aim and end is to obliterate all such fictions and monstrosities.

---Do not hate anybody, because that hatred which comes out from you must, in the long run, come back to you. If you love, that love will come back to you, completing the circle.

---Everything must be sacrificed, if necessary, for that one sentiment: universality.

---I have been asked many times, "Why do you laugh so much and make so many jokes?" I become serious sometimes, when I have a stomachache!

---If you want to have life, you have to die every moment for it. Life and death are only different expressions of the same thing looked at from different standpoints; they are the falling and the rising of the same wave, and the two form one whole.

---YOU know, I may have to be born again, you see, I have fallen in love with mankind.

About Tiruvalluvar:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiruvalluvar" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

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Re: Spirituality -A Garden of Wisdom (continued)

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May we discuss the statements by these great men in this thread?

The atmosphere in the garden is serene and peaceful. I wouldn't like to strike some discordant notes amidst the chirping of birds and silent rustle of leaves.
Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.

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Re: Spirituality -A Garden of Wisdom (continued)

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charleslemartel wrote:May we discuss the statements by these great men in this thread?

The atmosphere in the garden is serene and peaceful. I wouldn't like to strike some discordant notes amidst the chirping of birds and silent rustle of leaves.
Sure, go ahead...

There's nothing discordant in spirituality,
not even the blowing rush of ego-typhoons!
It's like being above the clouds right over it.
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

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Re: Spirituality -A Garden of Wisdom (continued)

Post by charleslemartel »

The Cat wrote:
charleslemartel wrote:A beautiful prose to read and ponder.

Would you, however, call such a still and empty mind religious? :)
Welcome into the Garden, charlesmartel. Be my guest...

Is a mind full of rhetorics, mantras, rituals and sectarian beliefs can truly be religious?
Religiosity, for what it worths, has been quite underlined in following Vivekananda's...
A mind that has stopped its constant chatter and is utterly silent ceases to exist; how can it then be called religious or irreligious?
It can only be called "No - Mind".
Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.

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Re: Spirituality -A Garden of Wisdom (continued)

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charleslemartel wrote:
The Cat wrote:
charleslemartel wrote:A beautiful prose to read and ponder.

Would you, however, call such a still and empty mind religious? :)
Welcome into the Garden, charlesmartel. Be my guest...

Is a mind full of rhetorics, mantras, rituals and sectarian beliefs can truly be religious?
Religiosity, for what it worths, has been quite underlined in following Vivekananda's...
A mind that has stopped its constant chatter and is utterly silent ceases to exist; how can it then be called religious or irreligious?
It can only be called "No - Mind".
It doesn't cease to exist, its on the repose.
It's not babbling, nevertheless in action!

It doesn't mind what doesn't matter:
Like when your driving while talking...
You're conscious, alerted, vigilant,
In the middle of a conversation.

To be so awoken is all there is in spirituality.
Your mind ain't rolling like a caged hamster!

To know yourself is to realized how petrified you truly were,
embalmed in your own noises, dazed but comfortably numb.
You're not a repeating machine anymore: Silence is order,
like the silence of your teeth when without toothache.

Spirituality will teach you the bliss within such silence!
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

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Re: Spirituality -A Garden of Wisdom (continued)

Post by charleslemartel »

The Cat wrote: It doesn't cease to exist, its on the repose.
It's not babbling, nevertheless in action!
The actions of mind manifest in thoughts and images.
When thoughts and images vanish, so does the mind, and choice less awareness reigns.

As Sosan says,

When thought objects vanish,
the thinking-subject vanishes,
as when the mind vanishes,
objects vanish.

Things are objects because of the subject;
the mind is such because of things.
Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.

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Re: Spirituality -A Garden of Wisdom (continued)

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charleslemartel wrote:
The Cat wrote: It doesn't cease to exist, its on the repose.
It's not babbling, nevertheless in action!
The actions of mind manifest in thoughts and images.
When thoughts and images vanish, so does the mind, and choice less awareness reigns.

As Sosan says,
When thought objects vanish,
the thinking-subject vanishes,
as when the mind vanishes,
objects vanish.

Things are objects because of the subject;
the mind is such because of things.
The thinking mind itself is both a subject -and- an object.
It's not -alive- and dwells into its own fabricated reality!
The Cartesian: ''I think therefore I am'' is thus complete baloney.

The splitting reality of the mind confines it to inaccuracy
at least in the vast field of subjective interpretations:
Your mind makes you think you're at the center of things.
Well, only in a sectarian way, divorcing you from Reality!

The mind is the personified principle of dualism.
That is the dreadful error of Aristotelianism...

See: Aristotle’s logic -Why Aristotelian logic does not work
http://www.abelard.org/category/category.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
By Aristotelian logic, I mean category logic, excluded-middle logic, on/off logic, either/or logic. No greys – only black and white. This false ‘logic’ lies at the heart of authoritarianism, conflict, and a great deal of inadequate ‘science’. You are either for us or against us. He ‘is’ ‘good’ or he ‘is’ ‘bad’ . You did, you didn’t. ‘Dyslexia’ is caused by ‘genetics’ or ‘brain trauma’.

Aristotelian logic is also called by some, ‘Descartian logic’. The problems caused by Aristotelian logic are legion and accumulate. They include the misuse of ‘properties’, as well as a failure to match ‘theory’ to the real world. Those who take a pragmatic/empirical approach are less likely to be caught by the consequences of this theoretical paradigm. There is much more on the ‘property’ problem in the MetalogicA series of documents – the Confusions of Gödel.

Reality
You have been raised in an unsane culture. Driving that unsanity is a slavery to words. For sanity, you must learn to attend to reality outside yourself. The woods and the trees are real. To discuss them adequately, you must learn to communicate with clarity. That means understanding the confusions of language that are rife in western culture.

Every time you use a word you make a choice, you form a category to which only you have access.

The errors of Aristotelian logic are so pervasive that they cannot be sorted by one or two simple fixes. Thus I must tackle them in parallel until you may grasp the problems as a gestalt, or else take a leap of faith in completely revising your expressive mental set. Until that point, you are liable to attempt to drive a broken cart that will not go.

It is not enough to attempt to fix Aristotelian logic if you are to cogently discuss issues such as mathematics, politics, philosophy, psychology, economics and the like in a sane and rational manner. For the invasive elements of Aristotelian logic make rational discussion of subtle real-world issues effectively impossible.
Religions became ever worsening after Aristotelianism permeated in...
They kind of lost their natural belonging of -one- mixing with The One.

Lao Tzu (~570/~490),Tao Teh Ching (-38-).
http://academic.brooklyn.edu/core9/texts/taote-v1.txt" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
When the Way is lost, virtue arises
When virtue is lost, kindness arises
When kindness is lost, morality arises
When morality is lost, custom arises
Custom being a superficial expression
of loyalty and faithfulness,
and the beginning of disorder.


The mind is a surviving tool, yet it's not itself alive.
That's why it needs a television (etc) to be 'happy'.
It creates artifices just to feel afraid of loosing them.
Thus schizoid paranoia is the ultimate reality of the mind...
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

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Re: Spirituality -A Garden of Wisdom (continued)

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Wisdom, just like a garden, is intended to be a vestry of serenity...
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Just like the former thread, I'll build it like a walk around tranquility. A place like a resort where you can dwell in,
away from the tumults and shackles of the world. Something to ponder is also the origin of the word 'meditation'.
Far from being passive, meditation comes from the latin 'meditari' (to consider), the Gothic 'metan' (to measure
or evaluate). It's also related to 'medicus' (to take care of): diagnosis for the purpose of healing or soothing a hurt.
From Mediterraneus (middle-land) it carries the idea of central, centered, balanced: An exercise into objectivity.
Image
Picture: http://www.communitiesinbloom.ca/Default.aspx?ID=3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Being myself in the landscape business, I can assure you that gardens are a lot of work.
So are spirituality, meditation & wisdom: exercises into knowing our weedy prejudices...

Food for thought: Is Yoga a psychotherapy?
http://auriol.free.fr/yogathera/psymeng.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Spirituality -A Garden of Wisdom (continued)

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Jiddu Krishnamurti: On Meditation & Desire.

On Meditation (excerpts)
Who is the controller? Please, all this is implied in meditation, not merely to control one’s thought as is generally understood in meditation, whether it is Zen meditation, or the most complex forms of meditation which take place in India, and elsewhere, there is always the director, the entity that controls thought. So they have divided psychologically the thinker and the thought. So the thinker separates himself from the whole activity of thought, and therefore in meditation is implied the controller controlling thought so as to make thought quiet. (...)

So there is a division between the controller and the controlled. Right? Who is the controller? Very few people have asked that question. They are all delighted to meditate, hoping to get somewhere - illumination, enlightenment and quietness of the brain, peace of mind and so on. But very, very few people have enquired: who is the controller? (...) The controller is the past, is the entity, or the movement of time as the past and measure. So there is the past who is the thinker, separate from the thought, and the thinker tries to control thought. (...)

So the brain is constantly in movement. Now the idea of meditation is to make the brain quiet, silent, completely attentive, and in that attention find that which is - perhaps you will object to this word ‘eternity’ - or something sacred. That is the intention of those who really have gone into this question. The speaker has gone into this for the last sixty years or more. He has discussed this question with the Zen pundits, with the Zen patriarches, with the Hindus and Tibetan, and all the rest of the gang. (...)

And the speaker refutes all that kind of meditation because their idea of meditation is to achieve an end. The end being complete control of the brain so that there is no movement of thought. Because when the brain is still, deliberately disciplined, deliberately sought after, it is not silent. It is like achieving something, which is the action of desire. I don’t know if you follow all this. May I go on?

So one has to enquire also, if one is interested in all this, what is desire? Not suppress desire, as the monks and the Indian Sannyasis do, suppress desire, or identify desire with something higher - higher principle, higher image, if you are a Christian with Christ and so on. So one has to understand if one wants to find out what is meditation, one has to enquire into desire.

On Desire (excerpts)
Now desire, contrary to general belief, is the most precious possession of man. It is the eternal flame of life; it is life itself. When its nature and functions are not understood, however, it becomes cruel, tyrannical, bestial, stupid. Therefore your business is not to kill desire as most spiritual people in the world are trying to do, but to understand it. If you kill your desire, you are like the withered branch of a lovely tree. Desire must keep growing and find out its true meaning through conflict and friction. (...) This is what most people do not see. As soon as the conflict comes, and the sorrow born of conflict, they at once seek comfort. Comfort, in its turn, breeds fear. Fear leads to imitation and the sheltering behind established tradition. From this come rigid systems of morality, laying down what is spiritual and what is not spiritual, what is the religious life and what is not the religious life. It is the fear of life which produces guides, teachers, gurus, churches, religions. (...)

As soon as you fear, you have the desire to conform, to listen to everybody, to become a machine, a type. And all this is but contraction, and contraction is slow death. It is not in this way that desire can ever fulfill itself. Growth can only come by the liberation of desire, and liberation here means freeing it from all fear, and so from the cruelty and exploitation which results from the quest of comfort, which is the refuge of fear. And this, in its turn, can only come about through the wearing down of the egotism in desire by contact with life itself. Only in this way can the reality be reached which is the true consummation of desire. And so, truly to grow is to learn to love more and more, to think more and more impersonally, through experience. Desire, freed from its limitations and from the illusion of fear, becomes joy, which is but the true poise of reason and love.


To say that desire should be repressed is still a... desire!
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Re: Spirituality -A Garden of Wisdom (continued)

Post by BlacKStaR »

The Cat, Charlesmartel, can I join?

The cat, you have brought forth the most beautiful aspects of spirituality without the horrors of life in it. Let me expand a bit, the mind is indeed a beautiful garden where thoughts dwell. Of god and family, friends and all creatures, we are the very reflection of all those. like a child, we sometimes seek the wrong things and do the unbelievable. But nevertheless, the extension of our actions reflect and expect the same kind or even a drastic reaction form the other. If we do good and have good thoughts, the greater the reaction that we will receive.

Krsna said in bhagavad gita, that it is the duty of man to defend when all is threatened. ALL in this context means, family, friends and all living creatures. The equal reaction will result in war, and thats what happened exactly in kurukshetra. But even in war, there are the good and the bad. We have our sides built in automatically in us. One do not have to pass the credits to god as god doesn't care if he is credited or not. It is beyond our capability to credit him for anything.

:)
/Islam. I am the chill in the air.

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charleslemartel
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Re: Spirituality -A Garden of Wisdom (continued)

Post by charleslemartel »

BlacKStaR wrote:The Cat, Charlesmartel, can I join?

The cat, you have brought forth the most beautiful aspects of spirituality without the horrors of life in it. Let me expand a bit, the mind is indeed a beautiful garden where thoughts dwell. Of god and family, friends and all creatures, we are the very reflection of all those. like a child, we sometimes seek the wrong things and do the unbelievable. But nevertheless, the extension of our actions reflect and expect the same kind or even a drastic reaction form the other. If we do good and have good thoughts, the greater the reaction that we will receive.

Krsna said in bhagavad gita, that it is the duty of man to defend when all is threatened. ALL in this context means, family, friends and all living creatures. The equal reaction will result in war, and thats what happened exactly in kurukshetra. But even in war, there are the good and the bad. We have our sides built in automatically in us. One do not have to pass the credits to god as god doesn't care if he is credited or not. It is beyond our capability to credit him for anything.

:)
There are two types of Dharma; one is concerned with the interactions with the society or outside of yourself, and the other deals with the inner self. When you start reaching at the depth of your being, the dualism start disappearing. In the words of Sosan:

"Rest and unrest derive from illusion;
with enlightenment, attachment to liking and disliking ceases.
All dualities come from ignorant inference.
They are like dreams, phantoms, hallucinations—
it is foolish to try to grasp them.
Gain and loss, right and wrong; finally abandon all such thoughts at once.

"
Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.

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The Cat
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Re: Spirituality -A Garden of Wisdom (continued)

Post by The Cat »

BlacKStaR wrote:The Cat, Charlesmartel, can I join?

The cat, you have brought forth the most beautiful aspects of spirituality without the horrors of life in it. Let me expand a bit, the mind is indeed a beautiful garden where thoughts dwell. Of god and family, friends and all creatures, we are the very reflection of all those. like a child, we sometimes seek the wrong things and do the unbelievable. But nevertheless, the extension of our actions reflect and expect the same kind or even a drastic reaction form the other. If we do good and have good thoughts, the greater the reaction that we will receive.

Krsna said in bhagavad gita, that it is the duty of man to defend when all is threatened. ALL in this context means, family, friends and all living creatures. The equal reaction will result in war, and thats what happened exactly in kurukshetra. But even in war, there are the good and the bad. We have our sides built in automatically in us. One do not have to pass the credits to god as god doesn't care if he is credited or not. It is beyond our capability to credit him for anything.
Welcome into the Garden, BlackStar...
You're a Hindu I presume, so this might be of interest to you:

Bharata (ie. India) perennial wisdom
-The Vedas, Upanishads, the Ramayana, the Bhagavad-Gita, etc.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/india/indiasbook.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Rig Veda, X.129
Who knows for certain? Who shall declare it?
Whence was it born, whence came creation?
The Gods are later than this world's formation;
Who then can know the origins of the world?
None knows whence creation arose;
And whether he has or has not made it;
He who surveys it from the lofty skies,
Only knows -or perhaps he knows not.

In the former thread, the link given in the opening post, you'll find:
page 26, Shiva Nataraja. http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewt ... 379#325379" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
page 39, The Upanishad Khandoya 6.8-16.

The Akshardham temple (SwamiNarayan), in New delhi
Image

Image

A Hindu prayer recited at the opening of a temple:
O Lord, forgive three sins that are due to my human limitations:
--Thou art everywhere, but I worship you here;
--Thou art without form, but I worship you in these forms;
--Thou needest no praise, yet I offer you these prayers and salutations.
O Lord, forgive three sins that are due to my human limitations.

Image
After 5 years of non-stop, round-the-clock construction, the massive and awesome *Akshardham Temple Monument to World Peace* was inaugurated in November 2005. The Akshardham Temple in New Delhi, India, constructed by the BAPS foundation -- the builders of the various Swaminaryan Temples across the world, is truely a modern day Wonder of the World.

It is one of the biggest and most intricate religious places of worship ever constructed. Combining several completely different and contrasting
architectural styles of Hindu temple architecture of northern India --Rajasthani, Orrisan, Gujarati, Mughal and Jain -- the Akshardham Monument is entirely constructed of marble and the red-sandstone that Delhi is famous for, and that so many of her monuments are constructed of. It was completed in only 5 years a world record of sorts

The Akshardham monument, built without steel, is entirely composed of sandstone and marble. It consists of 234 ornately carved pillars, 9 ornate domes, 20 quadrangled shikhars, a spectacular Gajendra Pith (plinth of stone elephants) and 20,000 murtis and statues of India's great sadhus, devotees, acharyas and divine personalities.

The monument is a fusion of several architectural styles of pink stone and pure white marble. Pink stone symbolizes bhakti (devotion) in eternal bloom and white marble of absolute purity and eternal peace. The monument was built after over 300 million man hours of services rendered by 11,000 volunteers, sadhus and artisans. It is the one of the wonders of the modern world, and the wonders of modern India.
Image
pictures from: http://flickr.com/search/?q=akshardham+ ... searched=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You're welcome to bring in whatever is related to wisdom and spirituality (splendid churches, temples, nature, text)
So that people visiting the thread feel relax (etymology: freed from jail) just like in churches, temples, nature, etc.

I take great care, time, pride and dignity, in doing so...
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

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The Cat
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Re: Spirituality -A Garden of Wisdom (continued)

Post by The Cat »

charleslemartel wrote:There are two types of Dharma; one is concerned with the interactions with the society or outside of yourself, and the other deals with the inner self. When you start reaching at the depth of your being, the dualism start disappearing. In the words of Sosan:

"Rest and unrest derive from illusion;
with enlightenment, attachment to liking and disliking ceases.
All dualities come from ignorant inference.
They are like dreams, phantoms, hallucinations—
it is foolish to try to grasp them.
Gain and loss, right and wrong; finally abandon all such thoughts at once.

"
Hi again, charleslemartel (I misspelled your nickname so far, sorry...)
I hope you'll like this cartoon on the usual apprehension for meditation :roflmao:
Image
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

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The Cat
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Re: Spirituality -A Garden of Wisdom (continued)

Post by The Cat »

Confucius
Along with the Buddha and Lao Tzu, Confucius is the foremost Asiatic wisdom sayer.
So identified to than... to quote him is almost a replicate to our 'Simon Says' game.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucianism" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.historywiz.com/confucianism.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.aasianst.org/eaa/jones.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In the Old Forum Resource Center, a very popular (and funny) thread:
Muhammed Vs. Confucius, by dolciphean
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=38006" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From wikipedia
Confucianism (Chinese: 儒家; pinyin: Rújiā) is a Chinese ethical and philosophical system developed from the teachings of the Chinese philosopher Confucius (Kǒng Fūzǐ, or K'ung-fu-tzu, lit. "Master Kung", 551–479 BCE). It focuses on human morality and right action. Confucianism is a complex system of moral, social, political, philosophical, and quasi-religious thought that has had tremendous influence on the culture and history of East Asia. It might be considered a state religion of some East Asian countries (...).

Cultures and countries strongly influenced by Confucianism include China (including Taiwan), Japan, Korea, Singapore and Vietnam, as well as various territories settled predominantly by Chinese people.

The basic teachings of Confucianism stress the importance of education for moral development of the individual so that the state can be governed by moral virtue rather than by the use of coercive laws.
I've search throughout the quote sites and came with this important collection:
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Confucius" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

---What you do not want done to yourself, do not do to others.

---In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of.
In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of.

---When we see persons of worth, we should think of equaling them;
when we see persons of a contrary character,
we should turn inwards and examine ourselves.

---To practice five things under all circumstances constitutes perfect virtue;
these five are gravity, generosity of soul, sincerity, earnestness, and kindness.

---They must often change, who would be constant in happiness or wisdom.

---There are three methods to gaining wisdom. The first is reflection, which is the highest.
The second is limitation, which is the easiest. The third is experience, which is the bitterest.

---Study the past, if you would divine the future.

---Silence is a true friend who never betrays.

---Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.

---Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall.

---Never give a sword to a man who can't dance.

---Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated.

---Learning without thought is labor lost; thought without learning is perilous.

---It is easy to hate and it is difficult to love. This is how the whole scheme of things works.
All good things are difficult to achieve; and bad things are very easy to get.

---I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand.

---Choose a job you love, and you will never have to work a day in your life.

---Heaven means to be one with God.


His hometown temple, in Qufu, China.
Image

---A man who does not plan long ahead will find trouble right at his door.

---To go too far is as bad as to fall short.

---If language is not correct, then what is said is not what is meant;
if what is said is not what is meant, then what must be done remains undone;
if this remains undone, morals and art will deteriorate;
if justice goes astray, the people will stand about in helpless confusion.
Hence there must be no arbitrariness in what is said.
This matters above everything.

---The way to do is to be.

---Expect much from yourself and little from others.

---The Superior Man is all-embracing and not partial.
The inferior man is partial and not all-embracing.

---Let the states of equilibrium and harmony exist in perfection,
and a happy order will prevail throughout heaven and earth,
and all things will be nourished and flourish.

---The superior man governs men, according to their nature, with what is proper to them,
and as soon as they change what is wrong, he stops.

---What the superior man seeks is in himself; What the mean man seeks is in others.

---The superior man... does not set his mind either for anything, or against anything; what is right he will follow.

---The superior man is dignified, but does not wrangle. He is sociable, but not partisan.

---To govern means to rectify.

---If a man sets his heart on benevolence he will be free from evil.

---To love a thing is to want it to live.

---Cultivated people consider justice foremost. When cultivated people have courage without justice
they become rebellious. When petty people have courage without justice they become brigands.

---A disciple asked Confucius, “How do you regard the principle of returning good for evil.”
Confucius says, “What then would be the return of good? Rather you should return justice for injustice and good for good.”

---Tzu-kung asked, "Has the superior man his hatreds also?" The Master said, "He has his hatreds. He hates those who proclaim the evil of others. He hates the man who, being in a low station, slanders his superiors. He hates those who have valor merely, and are unobservant of propriety (li ). He hates those who are forward and determined, and, at the same time, of contracted understanding."

---"What do you say to killing unprincipled people for the sake of principled people?" Confucius replied, "Sir, in carrying on your government, why should you use killing at all? Let your evinced desires be for what is good, and the people will be good.''

Image

---To put the world right in order, we must first put the nation in order;
to put the nation in order, we must first put the family in order;
to put the family in order, we must first cultivate our personal life;
we must first set our hearts right.

---If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things.
If language be not in accordance with the truth of things,
affairs cannot be carried on to success.

---There were four things from which the Master was entirely free.
He had no foregone conclusions, no arbitrary predeterminations,
no obstinacy, and no egotism.

---And remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

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charleslemartel
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Krishnamurti on Anger

Post by charleslemartel »

Question: If I don't control my anger I'm afraid I'll kill someone.

Krishnamurti: Look: before you kill somebody, try to find out if you can resolve the anger. To control it is to suppress it. To say, I must not be angry is to create the opposite, and therefore a conflict between 'must not be' and the fact that I am. Or if you try to escape from it, anger is still there.
So now I do not escape, I do not suppress, I do not say, I must resort to - there is anger. Now how am I to go beyond, how is the mind to go beyond it, without creating its opposite? You've understood? Please come on, sir, some of you understand this? Good, then come with me. Then what am I to do? Look what has taken place. Before I tried to control it, which is a wastage of energy. Before I tried to suppress it, which is a wastage of energy. Before I tried to escape from it or rationalize it, which is an avoidance, an escape from the fact. If I don't escape, control, suppress or try to rationalize it, all that energy is concentrated, isn't it? So I have got that enormous energy to deal with one fact, which is anger. Have you got that? Please, otherwise we can't go on - if you haven't got it then it becomes merely verbal. You understand? You're angry, your tradition, your culture says, "Suppress it, control it, escape from it, and rationalize it." I say, that is wasting your energy which prevents you from observing the only factor, which is anger. So anger has no opposite, there is only that, and you have the energy.
Now, next step. Why do you call it anger? Because previously you have been angry, by naming it as anger, you have emphasized the previous experience. So you are observing the present factor with the previous experience, therefore conditioning the present factor. Are you meeting this? So the naming is a wastage of energy. So you do not name, no control, no suppression, no escape, and you have the energy. Then, is there anger? Don't say you don't know, because you are then facing the only factor. And when you are facing completely that factor, the factor doesn't exist, because it exists only when you are escaping, fighting, controlling, suppressing. Right, you've got it?
So, there is in me, in one, a human being, this duality. And I ask myself, "Is there a duality at all?" There is man, woman, sunshine - that's obvious, but psychologically, are there opposites? Or only thought invented the opposite because it could not solve the one factor. Have you got it? Please. And this requires attention, doesn't it? Because to see this clearly you need to observe. And you're prevented from observing when thought says, "I must do something about it." It is thought that has said, "I must control, otherwise I'll kill somebody." It is thought that has said, "I must suppress it, I don't know what to do about it, I must run away from it, I must watch it". These are all activities of thought - when you say, "I must watch it".
So thinking about the factor is a wastage of energy. You understand all this? There is no wastage of energy when there is only observation.
Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.

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Chiclets
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Re: Spirituality -A Garden of Wisdom (continued)

Post by Chiclets »

Image
Image
gupsfu wrote:When someone uses the "taken out of context" argument without explaining what it's really supposed to mean, you know he's lying.
Muslims are so secure in their faith that they need to kill those who don’t share it.

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