A query

[Nosuperstition]

I am sure if we compare Pramod Mahajan with your telgu ministers, they wont lag behind.

Pramod Mahajan was a Central minister from Maharashtra.How can Telugu ministers get to the level playing field by being just at the state level?And that too after intentionally dividing up A.P to decrease its clout at the centre?

[skynightblaze]

Let there be no private hereditary property and let everyone get the same salary followed by a ban on addictive substances.You will see.Brahmins have grown so privileged by denying others education for more than 2000 years and by being the first to embrace modern education for more than 200 years that you will always find the temple priest job being not so palatable amongst present day Brahmins for the simple reason that matrimonials are not forthcoming for them.Others need time to catch up.

What's the big deal about private hereditary property? Every one inherits property from their ancestors especially after their death and its nothing to do with any caste. I dont see where you getting with this one and also with ban on addictive substances.

Now Every one cannot get the same salary because of the level of skills required in doing some jobs. Nobody is forced to do a particular type of job. if an individual irrespective of caste wants to be paid highly, he/she should select the job which provides you high pay.

Finally ,Brahmins discriminated against other castes 150 to 200 years ago but there is no more discrimination now. Infact there is a term called as a reverse discrimination. We can clearly see from the way the admission for educational institutes is granted on the basis of caste reservation. As a self critic, I can see some issues with brahmin community but discrimination of other castes is certainly not an issue. Btw I am brahmin for the name's sake. I have zero beliefs in customs and traditions and I do not follow any of them as I find many of them do not make sense. I do what I want and nobody bothers.

Now finally you claim others need to catch up. So when will you guys catch up? After 2000 years of reservation or will you guys take infinite time? Please tell me when this should stop. Also the very fact that you claim that you have seen non brahmins do well is a testimony to fact that people from other castes can educate themselves properly without any odds. Dr Ambedkar was an intelligent man. He had asked for reservation for lower caste for 10 odd years and asked to stop this after but this practice is still carried for more than 60 years after his death. So please stop making excuses that you have lagged behind. These days education can be easily obtained without any discrimination but its costly so reservations can be given upto some extent to people who cannot afford to pay fees irrespective of caste. A person who is interested in education will do it irrespective of all odds. All you guys want to do is shift the blame on brahmins for your failure.

Would you ever care to prove the rubbish (especially the part in red) that you write?

Anyone who has ever closely followed the newspapers and electronic media in India knows very well that CBI functions per the whims and fancies of political parties at power in the Centre.I need not prove anything new.

You said its brahmin dictatorship at its peak. So please prove how brahmins are manipulating CBI . Which brahmin is dominant in CBI? Our prime minister belongs to backward class and out of 24 cabinet ministers only 7 are brahmin. Are you saying that 17 other caste ministers are also involved in helping brahmins?

https://www.quora.com/Are-all-of-the-ca ... pper-caste

Again please prove that non brahmins are discriminated in Maharashtra

Maharashtrian Brahmins are called Manuvaadis for no reason?

Nobody has called me by that name or I have never seen anyone in my relatives/friends ever being addressed that way. People from other caste can call brahmins by all sorts of names but that does not mean its a ground reality. Anyway even if they are addressed that way how does that become discrimination for others? Are you saying brahmin society is governed by laws of manusmriti ? Seriously who follows manusmruti these days? Majority of the people that I interact do not even have vedas as their home let alone manusmriti.

[skynightblaze]

Even the meritorious doctors from backward classes serve in cities and not in rural areas.

The percentage of post graduate doctors who are serving in rural areas has shot up after reservations were introduced.Before that many went abroad or worked only in metros.This is something I have read in newspapers.

Can you quote the news here? I just did a google search and found that students irrespective of caste get some quota in post graduate medical programmes if they serve for a minimum period in rural areas. The following article does not say what you are trying to say. It acknowledges there are very few doctors in rural areas .

A staggering 70% of the rural population has minimal access to health care, according to the World Health Organisation (WHO). The severe shortage of doctors, mainly in remote areas, has often been attributed to government policies and failure to implement them. While the parliamentary standing committee on health repeatedly raised concerns about vacant positions of doctors and healthcare workers in rural areas, the government argues the shortage is because of reluctance to work in such areas.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 283932.cms

Now this is a problem faced in rural areas inspite of reservations that we have today which proves my point - Doctors irrespective of caste choose to work in cities.
To provide a solution to this problem, a quota in post graduate medical education was proposed for those who worked in rural areas. This quote is irrespective of caste. This might be the incentive as to why there is a jump in doctors in rural areas and not because of your special backward classes having affinity towards rural areas as you falsely try to project here.

[skynightblaze]

I am sure if we compare Pramod Mahajan with your telgu ministers, they wont lag behind.

Pramod Mahajan was a Central minister from Maharashtra.How can Telugu ministers get to the level playing field by being just at the state level?And that too after intentionally dividing up A.P to decrease its clout at the centre?

At what level the minister works is not important. We can compare crimes of ministers and easily know which one is a better human being.

[Fernando]

In the UK education (up to A levels) is generally free. And generally students do not value it and parents see schools as baby sitting institutions.

The sins of the parents are being visited on the pupils, then. I'm not sure it's as simple as that though: that working-class white boys come off worst from the education system suggests either a bias in the system or a failed attempt to remedy a problem.
I know though that in the early days of adoption of computers in schools, boys were kept short of computer time to give girls a better chance: evidently the favour wasn't returned for other subjects.

[skynightblaze]

so reservations can be given upto some extent to people who cannot afford to pay fees irrespective of caste

I would like to correct my statement. There should be no reservation at all. Poor but meritorious candidates irrespective of caste should be given concession in fees. Currently undeserving candidates from backward classes are getting admission to top colleges.

[Nosuperstition]

What's the big deal about private hereditary property? Every one inherits property from their ancestors especially after their death and its nothing to do with any caste

Brahmins were imported from North India and were given land grants in South by the Satavahana and Ikshvaku dynasties some 2000 years back.They possibly did that after 'pacifying' local tribes resisting land handover.Land means money.Land means power.Once you have more money,you will be able to feed your kids with iron rich diet etc,fire up their zeal for attaining new heights in education etc.

Poor but meritorious candidates irrespective of caste should be given concession in fees.

Yes that should be the case.However reservations must exist because even today the self-confidence levels in different castes is different due to differential levels ingrained over many generations.Until caste is obliterated by means of inter-caste marriages ,reservations must continue.

[skynightblaze]

Brahmins were imported from North India and were given land grants in South by the Satavahana and Ikshvaku dynasties some 2000 years back.They possibly did that after 'pacifying' local tribes resisting land handover.Land means money.Land means power.Once you have more money,you will be able to feed your kids with iron rich diet etc,fire up their zeal for attaining new heights in education etc.

Andhra Pradesh has approximately 3% brahmin population (you can google this). 3% brahmins own maximum land in AP? 97% population doesn't have land? This is definitely not true. Also the percentage of brahmins must have been less back then. People easily migrate for jobs these days because of well established transportation and also due to development of various industries (e.g IT industry in Hyderabad). 2000 years back , the brahmin population would be very very scarce. Naturally the land allocated to these brahmins must also be very less.

Yes that should be the case.However reservations must exist because even today the self-confidence levels in different castes is different due to differential levels ingrained over many generations.Until caste is obliterated by means of inter-caste marriages ,reservations must continue.

You talk as if different caste people have been living for last 200 years and they themselves have experienced discrimination from brahmins. Their great great grandfathers might have experienced but not the current generation or generation before them. Last 2 to 3 generations are living in an era where education is a luxury for them where they get admissions easily based on their caste even for low percentages. A point I forgot to mention is some of the castes also incur less fees just because they belong to a specific caste irrespective of whether they are rich or not. In short there is no excuse for the current generation of having mental trauma.

Now the question is- if other caste people still do not have confidence then what is the guarantee of they having confidence of doing well in practice? Lets say there is a heart surgeon. If he does not have confidence then who would want to get treated from such people?

[skynightblaze]

Here is another article which has gathered some statistics on condition of brahmins these days.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2006/may/23franc.htm

Just to be fair, the article gives some stats on incomes of brahmins. It does not mean all brahmins have such low incomes but i guess its talking about in general.

[Nosuperstition]

Andhra Pradesh has approximately 3% brahmin population (you can google this). 3% brahmins own maximum land in AP? 97% population doesn't have land? This is definitely not true. Also the percentage of brahmins must have been less back then. People easily migrate for jobs these days because of well established transportation and also due to development of various industries (e.g IT industry in Hyderabad). 2000 years back , the brahmin population would be very very scarce. Naturally the land allocated to these brahmins must also be very less.

You are considering present day situation.That was not exactly the case some more than 2000 years or so back when Brahmins too definitely ate meat.They were quite strong physically before competition with Buddhism snuffed out their stamina.When Muslims could conquer almost whole of India within one century with lightning speed and when Mauryan Empire extended much upto the Northern borders of present day Tamil Nadu right from Southern Afghanistan within a very short span of time,one can understand that it is not difficult for people to get transported from one place to another even in those days.And yes during the British rule,the feudal castes extended their extent of their land by appropriating land that also belonged to other castes including temple lands.Another possible scenario for Brahmins 'possibly' owning less land is that their lands were appropriated by warring castes /marital castes as and when the Brahmins became too weak due to veggism.The present day strength of veggies lies in Soya been etc which were not that available in those days.

However I have been told by three sources that the real reason why many Brahmins own own houses in Andhra Pradesh was because of selling off of land in their settled villages called agrahaarams.

Also when land reforms were sought to be implemented in India,the landlords with hundreds of acres of lands used binamees to continue with their landowning and the then Brahmin rulers looked the other way.So essentially land became divided for each successive generation until most of land still remains in the hands of upper caste people even till date.

Now there is no more land for land reforms and giving to the people who really toiled hard on it.

In short there is no excuse for the current generation of having mental trauma.

Now the question is- if other caste people still do not have confidence then what is the guarantee of they having confidence of doing well in practice? Lets say there is a heart surgeon. If he does not have confidence then who would want to get treated from such people?

Then what is the necessity for the institution of caste to be allowed to be perpetuate using rigid matrimonies?Let caste be eliminated.The real reason is the feeling of inferiority and superiority by caste that first came into being with Brahmins still permeates the minds of many people in India.

[Nosuperstition]

There are hundreds of families that are surviving on just Rs 500 per month as priests in various temples

At Tamil Nadu's Ranganathaswamy Temple, a priest's monthly salary is Rs 300 (Census Department studies) and a daily allowance of one measure of rice. The government staff at the same temple receive Rs 2,500 plus per month.

The link you gave mentions these figures but does not date them.For example my the first salary drawn by my father itself in the 1970s was Rs 150-Rs 300 even as that is a Central govt job.Depreciation needs to be factored in.

[Nosuperstition]

The real reason why reservation is sought to be dismantled is that it is slowly helping to boost the self-confidence levels of successive generations of lower caste people.Now that is not up the taste of the rulers.So once dismantled,cheap labour will once again be available aplenty and privileges will once again remain a lot hereditary.

[skynightblaze]

So essentially land became divided for each successive generation until most of land still remains in the hands of upper caste people even till date.

It still remains to be proven that brahmins have maximum land in Andhra Pradesh. You need to prove the statement or else its just your wishful thinking.

[skynightblaze]

There are hundreds of families that are surviving on just Rs 500 per month as priests in various temples

At Tamil Nadu's Ranganathaswamy Temple, a priest's monthly salary is Rs 300 (Census Department studies) and a daily allowance of one measure of rice. The government staff at the same temple receive Rs 2,500 plus per month.

The link you gave mentions these figures but does not date them.For example my the first salary drawn by my father itself in the 1970s was Rs 150-Rs 300 even as that is a Central govt job.Depreciation needs to be factored in.

The article dates to 2006 so definitely its not talking about statistics in 1970's . Even back in days of 2000, Rs 500 was way too low salary.

[skynightblaze]

The real reason why reservation is sought to be dismantled is that it is slowly helping to boost the self-confidence levels of successive generations of lower caste people.Now that is not up the taste of the rulers.So once dismantled,cheap labour will once again be available aplenty and privileges will once again remain a lot hereditary.

1)Rulers of this country are not brahmins. So other caste people are discriminating against their own folks?

2) If merit based system makes other caste people go back to low skill jobs which are low paying jobs, it implies that they would not be able to compete based on merit and earn highly skilled jobs with high pay or else why would they go for such low paying jobs in the first place? You are admitting it yourself that other castes are not competent enough.

3) If people from other caste cannot have confidence in themselves even after 60 years then sorry to say then they don't have merit and its their problem . We cant keep nurturing your nonsensical insecurities. Actually I don't believe that the situation is such that lower caste people lack confidence. This is just an excuse. The reality is you guys don't want to work hard and also you have been conditioned to hate brahmins from birth and hence you want brahmins to suffer but you need to disguise your hatred and hence such excuses!

4) You might keep claiming about your insecurities for another 1000 years. So we wait and let brahmins suffer? And what about the damage it does to confidence of young brahmin boys who dont get admissions inspite of scoring good percentages? Are you going to suggest reservations for them to boost their confidence?

You guys also wanted reservation in private sector. That would have sealed a deal! Thanks to the entrepreneurs they value quality and your nonsense was not entertained.

[Nosuperstition]

The article dates to 2006 so definitely its not talking about statistics in 1970's . Even back in days of 2000, Rs 500 was way too low salary.

Then the article definitely does not reflect the truth as it is impossible for people to sustain themselves and their families with such meagre salaries.

1)Rulers of this country are not brahmins. So other caste people are discriminating against their own folks?

Both Brahmins and feudal caste people are the rulers of the country.

2) If merit based system makes other caste people go back to low skill jobs which are low paying jobs, it implies that they would not be able to compete based on merit and earn highly skilled jobs with high pay or else why would they go for such low paying jobs in the first place? You are admitting it yourself that other castes are not competent enough.

What is merit?In India,the system of education itself is mostly based on rote which is not a meritorious form of learning.If merit is being able to memorise better and coughing it out during exams by means of feeding your kids with iron rich diet and firing them up with zeal of their forefathers' achievements,then such a merit really does not deserve that much merit.Merit is that which can be assessed properly provided everyone is given the same diet and everyone is fired up or motivated by the same level.

3) If people from other caste cannot have confidence in themselves even after 60 years then sorry to say then they don't have merit and its their problem . We cant keep nurturing your nonsensical insecurities. Actually I don't believe that the situation is such that lower caste people lack confidence. This is just an excuse. The reality is you guys don't want to work hard and also you have been conditioned to hate brahmins from birth and hence you want brahmins to suffer but you need to disguise your hatred and hence such excuses!

4) You might keep claiming about your insecurities for another 1000 years. So we wait and let brahmins suffer? And what about the damage it does to confidence of young brahmin boys who dont get admissions inspite of scoring good percentages? Are you going to suggest reservations for them to boost their confidence?

You guys also wanted reservation in private sector. That would have sealed a deal! Thanks to the entrepreneurs they value quality and your nonsense was not entertained.

Actually reservations were kept on a back burner for many backward castes up until 1990s.Perhaps they were only available in South and to the SCs and STs who are a lot undernourished and discriminated against right from childhood by those from backward castes themselves who took the cue from Brahmins. You needn't worry much about the Brahmins because they bond with one another based on the so called higher ideal of veggism and can easily succeed by any means.

Ah yes the corporates,the very ones which exploit natural resources from tribals in the form of mining ,destroying their eco systems and then using the newspapers once again to call them robbers if they avail of reservations.

[Nosuperstition]

And for putting things in the right perspective,reservation is but giving off say Rs 40 after you have taken away say Rs 90 for yourself.This has been a concept not unique in India but prevalent worldwide with regards to native populations.In the U.S,U.S.S.R,Canada,Australia and New zealand to say a few.Due to population explosion,now you even want to make that Rs 40 either go extinct or snatch away their self-respect and self-confidence.

The reality is you guys don't want to work hard and also you have been conditioned to hate brahmins from birth and hence you want brahmins to suffer but you need to disguise your hatred and hence such excuses!

Not working hard can apply for those who really have the means but are not working hard.But for countless others for whom two square meals a day is itself a rare commodity,the allegation does not stand out.As for hating Brahmins,people will naturally dislike you when you show pack mentality and urge the same for those who are following you as ipso moto.
Why were other castes denied education for thousands of years?Why is caste mentality so severe amongst most feudal castes in India?Why is the same caste mentality not visible in any other nation where the Brahmins have ceased to exist as a separate entity?

[skynightblaze]

Then the article definitely does not reflect the truth as it is impossible for people to sustain themselves and their families with such meagre salaries.

An article supporting article on rediff.com states the same .

Gautier quotes the per capita income of various communities as stated by the Karnataka finance minister in the State assembly: Christians Rs 1,562, Vokkaligas Rs 914, Muslims Rs 794, Scheduled castes Rs 680, Scheduled Tribes Rs 577 and Brahmins Rs 537.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india/ar ... XPGHP.html

So is the data about scheduled castes too a lie? Lets have reservation system here as well. Lets accept any data related to dalits as 100% correct but when the name brahmin appears, lets deny it. We will do such a thing until you have confidence.

Both Brahmins and feudal caste people are the rulers of the country.

Yeah how evil of brahmins. They have the power and they are dictators of this country and yet the evil brahmins provide 50% reservation to other castes. I see they are so evil!

What is merit?In India,the system of education itself is mostly based on rote which is not a meritorious form of learning.If merit is being able to memorise better and coughing it out during exams by means of feeding your kids with iron rich diet and firing them up with zeal of their forefathers' achievements,then such a merit really does not deserve that much merit.Merit is that which can be assessed properly provided everyone is given the same diet and everyone is fired up or motivated by the same level.

The current education system is definitely wrong. That's a different topic altogether. Now you have got an excellent point . Let's ask for more reservations for other castes because they don't have iron rich diet. Only Brahmins have all the access to iron rich sources and they perfectly discriminate (even though the majority of cabinet ministers are non brahmins of the current government) and avoid giving iron to other castes. Since you said this , it must be true (caste reservation applies here too until you have the confidence) . I guess this argument is so solid that I give up.

Actually reservations were kept on a back burner for many backward castes up until 1990s.Perhaps they were only available in South and to the SCs and STs who are a lot undernourished and discriminated against right from childhood by those from backward castes themselves who took the cue from Brahmins. You needn't worry much about the Brahmins because they bond with one another based on the so called higher ideal of veggism and can easily succeed by any means.

If you dont know things , you should not talk. Many brahmins are non vegetarian these days. My elder brother eats beef , chicken and fish. Even I have tasted it but didnt like much and hence I prefer veggie style.

Ah yes the corporates,the very ones which exploit natural resources from tribals in the form of mining ,destroying their eco systems and then using the newspapers once again to call them robbers if they avail of reservations.

Oh how evil of them! The entrepreneurs should give all the jobs to other castes. They should have a sign board stating no brahmins allowed and then it would be very rational of them. The purpose of doing business should be easy feeding of other castes and not money. You want this advice to be followed by entrepreneurs across the world? I mean its such a brilliant and appealing idea that other castes get reservation wherever they go. Anyone would fall in love with you guys!

[skynightblaze]

Not working hard can apply for those who really have the means but are not working hard.But for countless others for whom two square meals a day is itself a rare commodity,the allegation does not stand out.

Those who cannot afford food twice a day, do not bother about taking education because you require minimum fees even if you belong to any caste. Those people automatically get excluded. So we are talking of people who come to educational institutions who can work hard but dont want to .

[Nosuperstition]

Yeah how evil of brahmins. They have the power and they are dictators of this country and yet the evil brahmins provide 50% reservation to other castes. I see they are so evil!

If all the decision making is left to the Brahmins,I am damn sure they would give zero reservations.Whining about reservations is most severe amongst them and they do believe in superiority by means of food habits.In no other religion as of now in the whole world does ritual purity based on food play such a pivotal role as in Brahmanism.And yes when they had power they did not allow others to get educated.Of course that is a universal situation whereby even in the West ,universal education came into being only after industrialisation.And commoners were kept at an arms length from reading holy books for quite quite long.The case in India is that even after getting sufficienty industrialised,people want to keep up their hereditary privileges and are scheming towards that end.

Let's ask for more reservations for other castes because they don't have iron rich diet. Only Brahmins have all the access to iron rich sources and they perfectly discriminate (even though the majority of cabinet ministers are non brahmins of the current government) and avoid giving iron to other castes. Since you said this , it must be true (caste reservation applies here too until you have the confidence) . I guess this argument is so solid that I give up.

No thanks,you are slowly winding up those things by means of privatisation.And if my argument is so weak,they try to give up such a diet and then compete.

If you dont know things , you should not talk. Many brahmins are non vegetarian these days. My elder brother eats beef , chicken and fish. Even I have tasted it but didnt like much and hence I prefer veggie style.

When you live in the U.S and are highly educated,you may do it.But here in India I have observed right from my childhood that many Brahmins remain stringently vegetarian and they even lectured me on why I should be a vegetarian.Only one Brahmin , that too a dark one ate chicken in front of my eyes.Now there is a saying in Telugu 'If you come across a black Brahmin do not trust him just as you should not trust a red Komati(Baniyaas in Telugu land).'So traders must essentially be black and Brahmins red.So can I trust him as an all encompassing example or should I consider him as providing anecdotal sample?

Oh how evil of them! The entrepreneurs should give all the jobs to other castes. They should have a sign board stating no brahmins allowed and then it would be very rational of them. The purpose of doing business should be easy feeding of other castes and not money. You want this advice to be followed by entrepreneurs across the world? I mean its such a brilliant and appealing idea that other castes get reservation wherever they go. Anyone would fall in love with you guys!

Oh I see then there should not exist any son of the soil argument in case of other castes.It further hurts the greed Brahmins naturally have.Then why did India proclaim independance based the same principle?