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Deeper meanings

PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:42 am
by Nosuperstition
Hpyroli/Chanakya lambasted Hindus in the old forum saying that the Hindu clergy had fooled too many people and continues to fool many in the name of deeper meaning of certain customs and traditions.

So behind every taboo made,there would be another real reason
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viewtopic.php?f=4&t=8943&p=231502&hilit=Aztecs#p231502

That is how the deeper meanings work.Deeper meaning traditions may not necessarily be initiated and maintained for the sake of bad purposes.For example during the Hindu month of Ashaada when rains lash out heavily,the streets turn yellow with turmeric nearby temples as turmeric water is poured on the idols of temple deities.Since turmeric is known to be having therapeutic properties,it helps reduce the outbreak of or incidence of the epidemic of waterborn diseases.

Polish forummer Basileos of the old forum said that paganism is dark ,brutal and superstitious.Superstitious yes but not necessarily dark and brutal.He cited the example of pagan Slavs massacring the foetuses of pregnant Christian women in Bulgaria as the most valuable human sacrifices for Perun,the Supreme Slavic God.

However he did not mention whether or not the Slavs themselves were the first agressors or whether they were retaliating for agressions upon them by the Christian crusaders or holy warriors.For example whole of Baltics and Scandinavia were converted to Christendom mostly by means of crusades by German Teutonic knights.So yes deeper meanings can result in bad things depending on which side of the fence you are.

Re: Deeper meanings

PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:14 am
by Fernando
Talking of turmeric, I guess we're back onto traditional medicine. While it seems possible (I've no idea of the facts, beyond its being fashionable at the moment) that turmeric has curative properties we'd need to be sure a) that the priests believed that and b) that they believed it would be effective against the diseases associated with floods.
I think it would be very difficult to dig down deep enough to find the root of the practice. I haven't read enough (or understood enough) of Sir J.W. Frazer and Robert Graves, but sufficient to learn that religious practices and myths tend to have a long train of since forgotten preceding ideas based in turn on long forgotten preceding ideas. It was quite an eye-opener in my youth when I dipped into Frazer, re-opening later when I went beyond Graves' novels.

Re: Deeper meanings

PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:06 pm
by Nosuperstition
Turmeric along with neem is a traditional ayurvedic medicine for skin diseases such as acne and pimples.Also worth noting that the cows urine though considered having medicinal value is not used for bathing the idols.May be people are aware of the fact that urine necessarily has impurities harmful to human beings.

Re: Deeper meanings

PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 1:49 pm
by Nosuperstition
When HPyroli said about deeper meanings,I could not understand.However as of recently when I read about a telugu theology sentence 'loguttu perumaallakeruka' which means that the underlying secret is known to Perumal,it only confirmed what HPyroli said.Perumal means Lord Vishnu in general understanding however it can also denote some religious authority whose name is Perumal.

Re: Deeper meanings

PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:51 pm
by Nosuperstition
Since religion and the state were always mixed in ancient pagan societies as well as Christendom before Renaissance,it is only natural that religious beliefs and secular welfare were always inter-twined.Secularism as a concept was unknown in ancient pagan Rome even though at different points of time,they vouched for freedom of speech and democracy amongst their subject vassal provinces.Freedom of speech and freedom of religion are much inter-twined.At some other different points of time in its prolonged period of dominance , Rome allowed its vassals to have their own religions without much interference.Perhaps the prevailing belief amongst pagan Roman elite that religion is basically false ,however it is useful to keep the general population under control led to this lenience.Perhaps when too much freedom of speech resulted in a total lack of belief in much of its provinces at a later stage,Roman Emperors decided to give up their entire past and implement a new religion forcefully amongst all provinces by wiping out/outlawing paganism by making Christianity the only acceptable official religion across all the provinces of the Empire by closing down contradictions by the establishment of one and only one Catholic Church and abolishing Bible possessions by the public.

Perhaps even if they did not believe that all of their ancestors deserve eternal hell as is evident from some of the verses of the N.T,they went ahead with the mission as they believed that fear of everlasting hell gives their subjects an impetus for further expansionism as that concept renders believers more sin-fearing and God fearing.Islam just picked up this idea from the Christians who in turn picked it up from the Zoroastrians.

Re: Deeper meanings

PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:36 pm
by manfred
The connection between welfare and religion is found in all major religions today, though in different forms, some religions charge its followers with a care for all humans, others merely with a care for those who follow the same religion, or other limited group.

In ancient Rome (or Greece) this connection was not present at all. There was no ethical or social element to the religions of Rome or ancient Greece. This is why people like Aristotle developed an ethics system completely separate from religion, and why it has survived to this day, and ironically, eventually made its way into at least one major religion.

In Rome religion was about showing allegiance to the state by publicly worshipping the state-prescribed deities. Attending the temple is the equivalent to people bowing to the Kims in North Korea. Classical Rome more or less exactly adopted the Greek pantheon, but also deities from other regions, specially in later times. There is even a place to worship the "unknown" god, so that each and every act of worship can carried out as part of the state sanctioned religion. Also, at times, emperors were "made" into gods, so that in publicly worshipping the emperor you acknowledge his right to rule over you.

So religion in ancient Rome had a function we today find very odd and hard to understand: religion was primarily an instrument for displaying allegiance to the state. This to some extent continued though the middle ages and beyond, but does not make a lot of sense to us today.

But it explains why the STATE was interested in enforcing compliance to specific religious practices: a common religion was uniting the people. Only those religions which at a minimum taught tolerance to the existing government were useful to rulers, so many so-called "cults" in Rome either existed only in secrecy or were subject to persecution by the authorities.

As neither Christians nor Jews accepted worship of an emperor, they were persecuted not so much as "heretics" but as possible traitors or enemies of Rome. Only much later, when emperors realised they did not themselves need to be the subject of worship as long as a religion taught to obey the emperor (as Christianity does) it became possible for Christianity to be come the Roman state religion, as it could serve the same purpose. Only speculation, but if Jesus had not said "give Caesar what is Caesar's" Christianity may well have been killed off with all the other cults of Rome, and there would be no Christianity today at all, and also no Islam.

Re: Deeper meanings

PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:28 pm
by Fernando
Manfed wrote:Also, at times, emperors were "made" into gods, so that in publicly worshipping the emperor you acknowledge his right to rule over you.
You have seen it on TV: "All hail Jeremy Corbyn!". Plus ca change...

Re: Deeper meanings

PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:49 pm
by Nosuperstition
Fernando wrote:
Manfed wrote:Also, at times, emperors were "made" into gods, so that in publicly worshipping the emperor you acknowledge his right to rule over you.
You have seen it on TV: "All hail Jeremy Corbyn!". Plus ca change...


In the old forum,people were stating that democracies in the ancient world were leading either to stagnation or demise when Emperors had to come to power thereby prolonging their longevity.Buddhist texts also state that republics were on the wane in ancient Indian subcontinent while monarchies were expanding and flourishing.So let us see from when again democracies cease to exist in the modern Western world where religion was publicly renounced only post WW II and became truly secular even though the elite had long since known about the Bible from the Renaissance era.

Re: Deeper meanings

PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:51 pm
by Nosuperstition
In Rome religion was about showing allegiance to the state by publicly worshipping the state-prescribed deities. Attending the temple is the equivalent to people bowing to the Kims in North Korea.


Pagan Rome was a highly militaristic society.Roman military generals first appropriated the lands of fellow Roman commoners and later those of the conquered territories.Perhaps those people who lost their land and became the lowest class slaves hated their masters so much that they converted to Christianity.Christians in Rome in the early days were known to be the lowest class of people who often co-operated with its enemies,the Persians.Perhaps their hatred of their land usurpers and human traffickers was so intense that they wanted them to be cast into eternal hell.In their secret gatherings,Christians are said to have regularly cursed their elite.So no wonder they were persecuted.However,paganism is no match for Christianity with regards to eliciting blind obedience.Sooner or later the Emperors must have realised it and hence had to convert to one of either two cults Christianity or Mithraism.Luckily Christianity was chosen.

Re: Deeper meanings

PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:53 pm
by Nosuperstition
Strictly speaking in the ancient world,the lives of slaves as manual scavengers was something far more worse than even that of hardworking farmers and hardworking commoner soldiers.However soldiers tend to be eulogised as part of hero worship in paganism.Being the supreme commander of the army,the also Emperor deserves worship which both the Jews and the Christians stubbornly refused and hence got persecuted.

Re: Deeper meanings

PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 2:20 pm
by Nosuperstition
Instead of telling that yellow colored turmeric cures certain infections,people are either told that yellow is the only color that ancestor spirits/deceased spirits are allowed to touch or not even told that and is used routinely in the worship of deities at both home and in temples on a wide scale.That is how this deeper meaning works.

Re: Deeper meanings

PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:34 pm
by Nosuperstition
It is said that the blood stained white cotton cloth if left to itself in air for a long period will turn yellow.Since blood sacrifices were once universal,might be the importance attached to yellow is due to it being a color associated with deity sacrifices in the bronze age.Since actual sacrifices are turned off in most of the important temples as practices evolved over a period of time in places of worship,might be turmeric which is yellow in color is still used in Hindu modes of worship.

Re: Deeper meanings

PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:17 pm
by Nosuperstition
It is said that the diversity in India is such that cultural practices in India vary for every few miles or kilometers of distance travelled.To the best of what I know,Hindu brides and bridegrooms supposedly use turmeric on their clothes on the day of marriage and thereafter they are forbidden for a brief period not to go outside the marriage premises for some period.Now one of my grandmother supposedly went out due to some urgent matter and later in her life she supposedly experienced every now and then paranormal things for brief periods as if some heavy weight or some ghost was occasionally exerting pressure on her heart while not in a seating or standing position.Perhaps the belief is that turmeric laced clothes attract supernatural things.

Now another superstition in vogue that I learnt from my parents is that in mid afternoon one should never go out after a head bath with no oil applied on your head.Even a small drop is to be applied to supposedly repel afternoon ghosts that might get in to you from their abodes on tamarind trees.Now the deeper meaning was said to me later,but I forgot it.However I see no deeper meaning with regards to the belief of not going outside in the immediate aftermath of marriage in turmeric laced clothes.

Re: Deeper meanings

PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:46 am
by Nosuperstition
My grandma who supposedly experienced the above mentioned paranormal phenomenon was the one from my maternal side and this story was narrated to me by none other than my mother.

Re: Deeper meanings

PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:03 pm
by Nosuperstition
Now another superstition in existence is that when a black cat crosses your path,you must stay still for some time and then begin to go forward in your journey.Some say it is any cat,some that if only it is a black cat.Now I somehow got to know the deeper meaning of this belief in this way.When you wait for sometime,you will recollect any essential things which you might have forgot in a hurry.

Now another belief is that if you drink the holy water of the river Ganges or take a bath in it,all your sins will be cleansed.Someone wrote in one of the weekly books of Andhra Jyothi/Andhra Prabha/Swaati that the real reason is that a musquito egg will never mature into a lava in the water of the Ganges due to some special properties in it.Also on the internet I have read many a time that even Aurangzeb,the last Mughal Emperor who levelled down many Hindu temples and tried to eradicate Hinduism by getting them to forcibly convert to Islam and in that process killed as many as one million which is quite high by those periods also drank only the water of the Ganges and nothing else.He too supposedly believed in its medicinal properties.

Re: Deeper meanings

PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:59 pm
by Fernando
Another superstition is that when a woman passes in front of you, that invalidates your prayer.

Re: Deeper meanings

PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 pm
by Nosuperstition
Fernando wrote:Another superstition is that when a woman passes in front of you, that invalidates your prayer.


I never really learnt this.According to what I know,the sight of widows is considered inauspicious and hence must be shunned just like a cat/black cat passing through before you.It is said that this superstition was formulated to keep widows at bay from becoming promiscuous thus affecting the emotions of the wives of those whose husbands might lust after them.Even Swami Vivekananda justified insulting widows.That is much similar to how homosexuals are stigmatised in the West.In fact the sight of a married woman who is not a widow(called Sumagali with respect) in Hinduism is considered auspicious.How can her sight then invalidate a prayer?Where have you learnt this belief?

Re: Deeper meanings

PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:47 pm
by Fernando
Nosuperstition wrote:
Fernando wrote:Another superstition is that when a woman passes in front of you, that invalidates your prayer.
How can her sight then invalidate a prayer?Where have you learnt this belief?
Don't ask me, ask a Muslim: it's their belief. I'm not sure whether it's from the Koran or hadiths.

Re: Deeper meanings

PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:48 pm
by Nosuperstition
I was told my someone when I was between my L.K.G and 5th standard that if you scribble anything on the walls be it is in the school or at your home,own or rented,you will become totally blind.And I believed in it for quite quite a long time.Now when I know about deeper meanings ,I understand that such a thing was said only to prevent pupils from vandalising the whitewashed/painted walls of schools or homes.Nothing more.

Re: Deeper meanings

PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:33 pm
by Nosuperstition
I was told at my home that if you spill milk or salt on the floor,it will cause anger to goddess Lakshmi,goddess of wealth and as a result,there is a greater chance of her leaving your house causing you to be left with financial troubles.Similiar is the scenario predicted for using excess water in you house.Now when I know about deeper meanings,I understand that these things are said so that you do not waste what were considered valuable and use them economically according to the periods in which these superstitions were created.