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Theology, the sh!t of it all

PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 1:50 am
by Chiclets
We have some Christians/Jews (fuckers) who say the Christian/Jewish god (true fucker) is NOT the same god as Allah (the fucker), and some Muslims say it's the same god; The God (fucker) of Abraham.  But not all Christians/Jews(fuckers) and not all Muslims(fuckers too) agree with others in their own faith.

Believers (Fuckers) everywhere all the time argue about the nature of God while they claim one cannot understand God, but fuckers have rather precise descriptions of the nature of this God they supposedly cannot understand(fuck).

Round and round they keep going.  In order to give some intellectual credibility to such ridiculous nonsense, some academic boneheads (fuckers too) even created a pseudo philosophical study called Theology.  It's the study of the supernatural (fucking) nonsense of the imagination, the world of the unseen(fuck), the spirits (fuck) and the demons (fuck).  And they debate the nature of these things as if they are actually real.  Believe it or not, theology is an actual field of study, and you can get a degree in it.  You can then be considered an expert on imaginary things, and you can enlighten others.  WTF?? :musilmah:

Re: Theology, the sh!t of it all

PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 2:04 am
by Chiclets

Re: Theology, the sh!t of it all

PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 2:19 am
by manfred
why so angry?

OK, so you don't like Christians, you don't like Jews, you don't like Muslims, or anyone who has any religious beliefs. And you don't like theology... btw I used to teach that at university, but I also have a degree in mathematics. It isn't about spooks and ghost or things that go bump in the night, it is about understanding a belief system and its sources. People study ancient languages, philosophy not related to religion, classical and modern, history, textual analysis, and various traditions and beliefs people hold. Many people taking such a degree are not religious at all. Others study it to become a member of the clergy, for example, or to teach RE in a school. And Theology was one of the earliest subjects available at the oldest universities in the world, before even medicine.

A degree course like that is useful in understanding and debating religious topics, for example, but nobody is making you taking one, so relax. I for one would not dream bothering you with any beliefs I hold, anyway. For example, how can you discuss Islam if you have not at least first studied what it is?

Also, can you honestly claim you fully, in every detail, understand your children, or your parents? If not, is that stopping you from ever mentioning them?

Re: Theology, the sh!t of it all

PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 5:03 am
by Chiclets
manfred wrote:why so angry?

OK, so you don't like Christians, you don't like Jews, you don't like Muslims, or anyone who has any religious beliefs. And you don't like theology... btw I used to teach that at university, but I also have a degree in mathematics. It isn't about spooks and ghost or things that go bump in the night, it is about understanding a belief system and its sources. People study ancient languages, philosophy not related to religion, classical and modern, history, textual analysis, and various traditions and beliefs people hold. Many people taking such a degree are not religious at all. Others study it to become a member of the clergy, for example, or to teach RE in a school. And Theology was one of the earliest subjects available at the oldest universities in the world, before even medicine.

A degree course like that is useful in understanding and debating religious topics, for example, but nobody is making you taking one, so relax. I for one would not dream bothering you with any beliefs I hold, anyway. For example, how can you discuss Islam if you have not at least first studied what it is?

Also, can you honestly claim you fully, in every detail, understand your children, or your parents? If not, is that stopping you from ever mentioning them?


How did you conclude that I am angry at religious ?

You got me all wrong, I'm not against the religious; I'm against religion. I don't manifest my opposition to religion as bigotry against people or groups.

Re: Theology, the sh!t of it all

PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:03 am
by manfred
Well, things like "Believers (Fuckers)" perhaps.

Re: Theology, the sh!t of it all

PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 12:12 pm
by Fernando
I must say, Chiclets, that although I'm an atheist your post seemed like an angry rant to me. I think we could instead debate with Manfred about the nature of theology: whether it's about how many angels can dance on a pin head or whether it's now become a window through which to observe peoples' beliefs. (I would imagine the answer would depend on which practitioner we're considering.)

Re: Theology, the sh!t of it all

PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 12:36 pm
by manfred
How many angels can dance on a pin head? :lotpot:

An "angel" simply means a "messenger". מלאך אלהים means "messenger of God". The term is in fact variously used, but in the earliest occurrences they seem to be human beings. The "angels" announcing the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah ate food, wore robes, attracted the attention of the town's folk, so obviously they also could see them. Obviously they were people. In later texts, specially in allegorical ones, like Job, "angels" are sort of spirits. When we read "a Christmas Carol" by Dickens none of us assume the three "spirits" are real things, we clearly understand they are literary devices. Somehow when we see old texts we have problems when we see stuff like that.

What we can see, though, that "angels" very gradually changed in the way they are described in the literature, from simply someone delivering a message to some spirit or supernatural creature, specially in Jewish post-biblical literature. In Islam, this literary development of angels is ignored, and they have become a sort of creature without a body. Hence the joke as to how many fit on a pinhead. Thomas Aquinas was the first to tell it to his students, when discussing Mohammed's "Gabriel"... the fat old friar had quite a quirky sense of humour. His students did not understand either and thought he was serious, much to his dismay.

Re: Theology, the sh!t of it all

PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 1:42 pm
by frankie
Chiclets wrote:We have some Christians/Jews (fuckers) who say the Christian/Jewish god (true fucker) is NOT the same god as Allah (the fucker), and some Muslims say it's the same god; The God (fucker) of Abraham.  But not all Christians/Jews(fuckers) and not all Muslims(fuckers too) agree with others in their own faith.

Believers (Fuckers) everywhere all the time argue about the nature of God while they claim one cannot understand God, but fuckers have rather precise descriptions of the nature of this God they supposedly cannot understand(fuck).

Round and round they keep going.  In order to give some intellectual credibility to such ridiculous nonsense, some academic boneheads (fuckers too) even created a pseudo philosophical study called Theology.  It's the study of the supernatural (fucking) nonsense of the imagination, the world of the unseen(fuck), the spirits (fuck) and the demons (fuck).  And they debate the nature of these things as if they are actually real.  Believe it or not, theology is an actual field of study, and you can get a degree in it.  You can then be considered an expert on imaginary things, and you can enlighten others.  WTF?? :musilmah:


Chiclets:

Mankind is built to be curious in his surroundings, and wants to know how things work, this curiosity leads to wanting to know where he comes from, and where he is going, theology is a name given to part of this quest, it uses documents written over large periods of time,including religious documents,the Bible being one of them.

To deride those who want answers to their questions then I feel, puts a brake on the natural curiosity of man, who is driven to know about the unseen, which can be easily read about by those asking these same questions written thousands of years previously.

Re: Theology, the sh!t of it all

PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 2:51 pm
by Chiclets
manfred wrote:Well, things like "Believers (Fuckers)" perhaps.


My bad, sorry I meant beliefs.

Re: Theology, the sh!t of it all

PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 3:00 pm
by Chiclets
Fernando wrote:I must say, Chiclets, that although I'm an atheist your post seemed like an angry rant to me. I think we could instead debate with Manfred about the nature of theology: whether it's about how many angels can dance on a pin head or whether it's now become a window through which to observe peoples' beliefs. (I would imagine the answer would depend on which practitioner we're considering.)


Again my anger is directed at the fucked up beliefs and not the believers.

Also lately I am sensing a lot of hate against Muslims on this site, which is disgusting in itself, it would be good for us all to instead direct that hate towards the beliefs/ideologies/religion in general.

Goodbye mofo.

Re: Theology, the sh!t of it all

PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 6:44 pm
by Nosuperstition
manfred wrote:Well, things like "Believers (Fuckers)" perhaps.


That is a bad description,nevertheless the Bible does say that those that do not believe in God are fools.(A fool thinks in his heart that there is no God)

Re: Theology, the sh!t of it all

PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:15 pm
by manfred
A fool thinks in his heart that there is no God.


Yes indeed, but to read that as something attacking atheists would be anachronistic. The idea of Atheism was simply unheard of during the time it was written.

Psalm 14 dates to the post-exile period in Israelite history due to: (1) the themes of national restoration mentioned in verse 7, and (2) its classification by some as belonging to the wisdom genre, whose appearance is generally dated during this time. There is another psalm (53) which is almost identical.

If you read the text carefully then the "nabal" ("fool") is someone who keep himself in wilful ignorance about the consequences of his actions successfully deceiving himself that he can forever hurt and suppress others without ever having to pay the price. It not about an atheist but about those who can invent excuses for immorality, AS IF there was no other standard for them. I know of no atheists who ever suggested because there is no God they can simply hurt or kill others with impunity. Sure Atheists too are capable of awful things, but they also need some kind of ideology which justifies what they do.

This psalm is not about people denying God, but about people doing terrible things using the horrific excuse "because I CAN", and no more. You can be of any religion or none to reach that point.

Perhaps have a read the thing:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=ESV

It really has nothing to do at all with atheists, but with people who suppress and attack the Israelites "as if" God would not protect his people. It is a statement of faith. God will not abandon Israel to her enemies. Well, Israel is still there, so whether that has anything to do with God is a matter for belief, but maybe this faith has helped the survival against the odds.

You would be hard pressed to find anything much on atheists as such in the bible.

Re: Theology, the sh!t of it all

PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2016 5:31 pm
by Nosuperstition
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=16150&p=212193&hilit=Algernon#p212193

That was the response I got in the old forum when Christian theological terms such as 'children of God'(read Christians) and 'children of Satan'(read non-Christians) were brought to discussion.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life
.

http://biblehub.com/john/3-16.htm

So from the above sentence it seems that God has no offspring other than Jesus.So how does the term children of God apply to Christians when God himself declared through the holy spirit that he has no sons other than Jesus?

How does one explain the quite famous term in a Christian prayer 'Our father in Heaven'?

Re: Theology, the sh!t of it all

PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2016 6:05 pm
by manfred
That was the response I got in the old forum when Christian theological terms such as 'children of God'(read Christians) and 'children of Satan'(read non-Christians) were brought to discussion.


It is simple false to suggest that the term "children of God" exclusively means "Christians", and no theology actually teaches that. The "children of Satan" is a polemic designed to falsify Christian teaching to make a straw man, and is nonsense.

In fact the term "children of God" describes the "meaning of life" and "ultimate destiny" of ALL HUMANITY. The way humans are meant to relate to God is a fundamental difference between Islam and Christianity. To Christians ALL humans are invited to be "children", loved and cared for, and not "slaves". In Islam man is created to be a slave to Allah. In Christianity man is created to be an image of God in the world, to be God's children, freely doing the work of God from conviction and with love, not slaves kept in order by threats.

Re: Theology, the sh!t of it all

PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 6:28 pm
by Nosuperstition
It is simple false to suggest that the term "children of God" exclusively means "Christians", and no theology actually teaches that.


The Bible is clear that all people are God’s creation (Colossians 1:16), and that God loves the entire world (John 3:16), but only those who are born again are children of God (John 1:12; 11:52; Romans 8:16; 1 John 3:1-10).

In Scripture, the lost are never referred to as God’s children. Ephesians 2:3 tells us that before we were saved we were “by nature objects of wrath” (Ephesians 2:1-3). Romans 9:8 says that “it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring


http://www.gotquestions.org/all-God-children.html

born-again means those who are baptised in the holy name of Jesus Christ and thus receptive to the holy spirit i.e those that have become Christians.

Re: Theology, the sh!t of it all

PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 6:33 pm
by Nosuperstition
manfred wrote:To Christians ALL humans are invited to be "children", loved and cared for, and not "slaves".


Yes,if ever there is such a thing called salvation,there can be nothing more precious than that.However to understand the value of something that precious,you must have undergone an enormous suffering or pain in this very world itself which will make you long for /yearn for that ultimate thing.If ever people really want such a liberation,noone should try to stop them.That experience can also include slavery or destitution in this very world which those filled with the holy spirit asked their followers to endure in this world in order to bring about a good reputation to Christianity in the pagan Graeco-Roman world.

Re: Theology, the sh!t of it all

PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 7:44 pm
by manfred
I am getting tired having to answer for some fundamentalists. The term "children of God" in any mainstream theology has always meant all humanity, as a way of referencing the Christian belief about human destiny.

only those who are born again are children of God....

followed by a long list of verses who do not say anything like that, and for the millionth time, in Christianity the bible is not seen to be the equivalent thing to the Qur'an.

John 1:12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God


ALL HUMANITY "received" Jesus, as the chapter is an introduction to the doctrine of incarnation. Some believed in Jesus, and therefore are known as "children of God". It does not mean though that those who did not believe are not "children of God". It merely means that they have decided not to accept what is on offer to them.

Suppose Nosuperstition is a bank customer. The bank offers him a new credit card. He says he does not want it. Does he cease to be a customer?

John 11:52
He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, 52 and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one.


This is in fact saying the opposite to your claim in your quote: Jesus came for "the scattered children of God", all humanity, and "bring them together".
Romans 8:16
rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.[f] And by him we cry, “Abba,[g] Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.


Paul is not telling the Roman Christians that ONLY they are "children of God", but that all humans are, even some may no not know that or want to know. "The Spirit" Paul speaks of is not merely "for Christians", it is God's presence in the world as a whole.

And 1 John 1 is an address to Christians and says nothing at all about non-Christians.

Then, Romans 9 is about Christians some of which were Jews and some not. He is not discussing some Christian superiority claim, he is dealing with a topic that was important at his time: Christians do not come in two classes, those who are Jewish and anybody else. The quote is when Paul paraphrases some ideas from Jewish teaching and texts, and then responds to that, also quoting a Jewish source:

In the very place where it was said to them,
‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’


This is just a few sentences further down just a little further down. It really helps to read the text your quote first.

Re: Theology, the sh!t of it all

PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 4:24 am
by Nosuperstition
manfred wrote: In Islam man is created to be a slave to Allah. In Christianity man is created to be an image of God in the world, to be God's children, freely doing the work of God from conviction and with love, not slaves kept in order by threats.


Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the kingdom of God.So in essence,you are asked to be meek in serving your higher ups , be it is slave masters or your bosses so that you will inherit Heaven.If not you might eventually end up in everlasting Hell.(Since there exist not any middle grounded realms in Christianity).Therefore to say that you serve purely out of your own conviction without any ingrained threats might not be true.

Re: Theology, the sh!t of it all

PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:07 am
by srinivasan
Chiclets wrote:


When will all these hoaxes end?

Re: Theology, the sh!t of it all

PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 3:33 pm
by manfred
I cannot see any youtube video and I am not aware of chicklets having posted one in this thread. And what hoaxes?