Page 1 of 3

The True Purpose of Abiogenesis & so on Evolution

PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:00 pm
by Garudaman
what's the point/aim of abiogenesis & so on evolution? :sml:

Re: The True Purpose of Abiogenesis & so on Evolution

PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:54 pm
by pr126
Well, for Muslims nothing really, because Allah created all life, so the subject is moot.
It is unislamic, haram. There is absolutely no point in pursuing it any further.
If Allah wanted you to know, he would have put it in the Quran.

For unbelievers, it is the origins and development of all life.

Re: The True Purpose of Abiogenesis & so on Evolution

PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 4:23 pm
by manfred
What both are trying to do is to make sense of things we can observe, and both are trying to use scientific methods to to achieve that.



Living beings change and adapt, or they die out. Evolution is the study of the change of organisms in response to the environment. In humans, skin colour is such an adaptation to the environment. Random variations prove useful or not. If they have a survival value then they are retained, if not,then they die out.

Abiogenesis is trying to explore and explain the mechanics of how life started in the first place, at the level of chemistry.

Now < am just curious, imagine you, as a Muslim become a school teacher teaching science. How would you tackle these topics?

Re: The True Purpose of Abiogenesis & so on Evolution

PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:39 am
by Garudaman
pr126 wrote:For unbelievers, it is the origins and development of all life.

the question is what the point/aim/purpose, not what the means! :roll:

Re: The True Purpose of Abiogenesis & so on Evolution

PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:45 am
by Garudaman
manfred wrote:What both are trying to do is to make sense of things we can observe, and both are trying to use scientific methods to to achieve that.

Living beings change and adapt, or they die out. Evolution is the study of the change of organisms in response to the environment. In humans, skin colour is such an adaptation to the environment. Random variations prove useful or not. If they have a survival value then they are retained, if not,then they die out.

Abiogenesis is trying to explore and explain the mechanics of how life started in the first place, at the level of chemistry.

if the point is about survival, then why they should do it/trying to do it (no living being doing abiogenesis & living being doing evolution), while the energy & so on matter, basically is eternal?

manfred wrote:Now < am just curious, imagine you, as a Muslim become a school teacher teaching science. How would you tackle these topics?

why it should be difficult? human is mutating from monkey or born from born from the mating between monkey and pig as what the scientist tell recently, is never contradict with God creating Adam from mud because monkey basically is also mud creature!

:???:

Re: The True Purpose of Abiogenesis & so on Evolution

PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:27 am
by pr126
Garudaman wrote:
pr126 wrote:For unbelievers, it is the origins and development of all life.

the question is what the point/aim/purpose, not what the means! :roll:

Let me rephrase your question then.

What is the point / aim / purpose of ANY scientific inquiry, development, exploration, inventions?

Absolutely no point/aim/purpose at all. Everything that we need to know is already written it the Quran for us.

Garudaman wrote:
human is mutating from monkey or born from born from the mating between monkey and pig as what the scientist tell recently, is never contradict with God creating Adam from mud because monkey basically is also mud creature!

I think you have described it almost coherently :smartass:.

Re: The True Purpose of Abiogenesis & so on Evolution

PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 2:42 pm
by Garudaman
pr126 wrote:
Garudaman wrote:
pr126 wrote:For unbelievers, it is the origins and development of all life.

the question is what the point/aim/purpose, not what the means! :roll:

Let me rephrase your question then.

What is the point / aim / purpose of ANY scientific inquiry, development, exploration, inventions?

there's two kind of invention, first the invention that make life/survive easier, & two the invention that make life more more enjoyable, for the first kind my question is still same, why it should do while the matter basically is eternal?, & for the second kind my question is why should develop/evolve so advanced if is just for fun?

;)

Re: The True Purpose of Abiogenesis & so on Evolution

PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:19 pm
by pr126
Sorry Garudaman, I am not qualified to teach evolution.
Besides, I am not sure whether you want to explore science or you want a theological argument.

There is an authority on the subject here in the UK, his name is Professor Richard Dawkins.
Try some of his books, available on Amazon.com.

The selfish Gene

The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution

The Blind Watchmaker

The Ancestor's Tale: A Pilgrimage to the Dawn of Life

The Extended Phenotype: The Long Reach of the Gene

Unweaving the Rainbow:

Climbing Mount Improbable

Re: The True Purpose of Abiogenesis & so on Evolution

PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 4:31 pm
by Garudaman
(meanwhile) the sciences/those books just explained how it happen, but this thread discuss why it should happen! ;)

Re: The True Purpose of Abiogenesis & so on Evolution

PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 6:38 pm
by pr126
I am surprised that you ask this question.

The answer is simple. It was the will of Allah.
It is all in the Quran.

Re: The True Purpose of Abiogenesis & so on Evolution

PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 4:38 am
by Garudaman
no, that's not the question, because whether the will of God or the will of that matter itself, it doesn't answer why the God or that matter want it! :ermm:

Re: The True Purpose of Abiogenesis & so on Evolution

PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:10 pm
by sum
Hello Garudaman

Neither god nor matter "want" it to happen. It is all a matter of chance and the survival of chemistry leading to primitive life. That which can not survive in its environment will die off whereas that which can survive in that same environment will prosper. There will be continuous minor changes which again lead to Darwinism - the survival of the fittest. And so it goes on.

I do not consider that the natural state gives a spiritual purpose to life. It is all chance and Darwinism. The man-made Golden Rule enables societies to take care of each other within that society which in turn makes that society more able to survive.

Religion is a method of giving a purpose to life as well as controlling the masses. Religion comes from man and not a god. I do not have any problems with religions except for one - Islam. Unfortunately Islam does not bind people together but causes divisions and controls though indoctrination, brutality and fear.

As you are a muslim who believes in Allah, have you ever wondered where Allah was before he created the universe. There would be absolutely nothing - not even a vacuum. Where would he be? Was he bored and to relieve the boredom he created the singularity and the big bang, sat back and watched everything evolve even without any help from himself?

sum

Re: The True Purpose of Abiogenesis & so on Evolution

PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:57 am
by Garudaman
sum wrote:The man-made Golden Rule enables societies to take care of each other within that society which in turn makes that society more able to survive.

why we need to take care of each other/why it necessary, while/anyway in the end we/society/matter/energy will survive after all (if we're extinct, we still can evolve again)? :sml:

Re: The True Purpose of Abiogenesis & so on Evolution

PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:49 pm
by Garudaman
should we switch places? here's my thought : the true purpose of evolution, is to improving more function, thus can presenting more function, please argue! ;)

Re: The True Purpose of Abiogenesis & so on Evolution

PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:38 pm
by sum
Hello Garudaman

Your quote -
why we need to take care of each other/why it necessary

Taking care of each other binds people together. It is an evolutionary development that helps people to survive. Could you survive as an individual if you had to provide your own shelter, gather food and protect yourself and your family if there was no help from anyone else? Could you build your own home? Could you provide food? Could you provide fuel and warmth? We all need each other to survive and society to prosper.

The Golden Rule satisfies these requirements but unfortunately the Golden Rule in Islam just relates to muslim societies and only within individual sects of Islam.

sum

Re: The True Purpose of Abiogenesis & so on Evolution

PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:39 pm
by pr126
sum wrote:
The Golden Rule satisfies these requirements but unfortunately the Golden Rule in Islam just relates to muslim societies and only within individual sects of Islam.

I would narrow it down even further, the tribe or clan first.
See first cousin marriages in Islam.

Two main reasons, one is the culture of mistrust of external tribes / clans, and two, the wealth remains in the tribe.

Re: The True Purpose of Abiogenesis & so on Evolution

PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:04 am
by Garudaman
sum wrote:Hello Garudaman

Your quote -
why we need to take care of each other/why it necessary

Taking care of each other binds people together. It is an evolutionary development that helps people to survive. Could you survive as an individual if you had to provide your own shelter, gather food and protect yourself and your family if there was no help from anyone else? Could you build your own home? Could you provide food? Could you provide fuel and warmth? We all need each other to survive and society to prosper.

The Golden Rule satisfies these requirements but unfortunately the Golden Rule in Islam just relates to muslim societies and only within individual sects of Islam.

sum

why do you corrupt the question? the question should be like this :

why we need to take care of each other/why it necessary, while/anyway in the end we/society/matter/energy will survive after all (if we're extinct, we still can evolve again)?

no wonder, your answer doesn't connect! :lotpot:

Re: The True Purpose of Abiogenesis & so on Evolution

PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:11 am
by pr126
@ Garudaman

I am puzzled as why do you pursue the question of abiogenesis and evolution here on FFI forums.
FFI is not an academic forum where these subject can be discussed and debated with any scientific authority.

If you really want to know the answers to these questions then you should frequent appropriate scholarly forums or learning facilities available freely on the internet.

Re: The True Purpose of Abiogenesis & so on Evolution

PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:11 pm
by Garudaman
what do you mean by scientific? abiogenesis hasn't been proven scientifically, you know! :wot:

Re: The True Purpose of Abiogenesis & so on Evolution

PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:46 pm
by pr126
Garudaman wrote:what do you mean by scientific? abiogenesis hasn't been proven scientifically, you know! :wot:

Well then. Allah did it.
Wasn't that the purpose of you opening this thread in the first place?

Just trying to save time arguing when you have all the answers written for you 1400 years ago.
Isn't this convenient? You don't need to think at all.
All the thinking has been done for you. How wonderful.