DO you agree with The Cat?Re: DO you agree with The Cat?
Yes but the Qur’an does not say to trust Muhammad. It says to judge the Qur’an by the Qur’an (e.g. 4:82). The “reliable” ahadith you refer to do not engender certainty, and thus again are disqualified by the Qur’an. One must accept the Qur’an before ahadith, and the Qur’an does not allow one to believe anything which contradicts, nor does it require any other source. The so-called “mutawatir” ahadith (if you browse them) are actually mostly irrelevant to application of Islam. I have not found one necessary to believe in to run Islam. Can someone bring me a mutawatir ahadith that is not supernatural, and is necessary to explain the Qur’an (without contradicting it)? The other ahadith likewise have uncertainty, and rely on human opinion. Thus to accept them as law is to accept humans as God. , Not in this case, because Allah’s reputation is the same as the Qur’an’s reputation. Again, Muhammad is not to be used to judge the Qur’an. These are entirely different concepts.
Re: DO you agree with The Cat?
Its even worse than what I thought The fact that none opposed the question of my poll says it all. My poll was "Do you agree with Cat that all the ahadith are fabricated" . 14 people voted yes which means even they interpreted your arguments the same way I did . 19 people have voted against you thinking that you are claiming that all the ahadith are unauthentic . What does that tell us? Neither those14 people nor the 19 people who voted against you ,support your position  . So we have a case where 33 people misunderstood your position.This should be sufficient to tell you that you do not write coherently .In short you got zero votes Now let me help you here. YOu have got a chance to claim that I am appealing to popularity because I said 33 people did not understand what you wrote which proves that you are incoherent .You claim that the fabrication started with Abbasids and there were no ahadith during Umayyad times which would mean that you believe the entire ahadith are fabrication. On one hand you claim that the ahadith were fabricated and on the other hand you claim that we need to judge them on their historic value. That is a clear cut contradiction because the corrupted or fabricated history cannot have historical value. I advise you to be original. Try writing your own responses for a change instead of copy pasting. If you cant write on your own at least be wise enough NOT to display your stupidity. You will save a lot of embarrassment. Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.
Re: DO you agree with The Cat?
@CAT
There is more drama now. If your position was never that all the ahadith are fabrications then you have put your foot in your mouth. Why did you bring all these western scholars into the equation? They do not agree with your position because they CLEARLY SAY THAT ENTIRE ISLAMIC HISTORY is a fabrication. This proves that you are not only a TROLL but you are deceptive. You certainly know what Goldziher, Schacht, Hertberg , Cook and Crone say and therefore if you claim that your position was never that ALL THE ahadith are fabrications then what was the point of bringing these sources here? We do not have to fight here actually .Both you and me have the same role i.e. to prove you as an idiot. You do that by virtue of your posts and I lend a helping hand to you Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.
Re: DO you agree with The Cat?
Just like you isn't it? Trying to detour a logical fallacy with yet another ! Likewise if I've started a poll stating: Do you agree with skynightblaze that all the hadiths are authentic? You'd be the first to dramatize. I didn't but mentioned because it was a foolish thing anyway from the first. viewtopic.php?p=128620#p128620
viewtopic.php?p=128982#p128982
Your fallacies are there for all to see in plain daylight, including your thread in RC not belonging there at all. Let alone spamming over a debate I've never called... ___________ To MesMorial, about the mutawatir hadiths... viewtopic.php?p=168960#p168960 Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.
Re: DO you agree with The Cat?
The drama is all yours. You keep building from wrong premises to false dilemma then to hasty generalization. Just more logical fallacies... Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.
Re: DO you agree with The Cat?
You have already made your point about being a TROLL. Why do you want to reiterate this every single time? I guess you do not want people to think you are a scholar even for a second. I guess you believe in being consistent and not letting down your fans who truly believe that you are a world class TROLL.One more thing , one who types more does not mean he is the one who makes sense .If you remember this then you will save much more embarrassment in the future. Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.
Re: DO you agree with The Cat?
@ The Cat;
I had a discussion about how people tend to side with the majority/authorities even when evidence shows they are wrong. “Milgram’s Experiment on Obedience to Authority” resulted in 65% of participants obeying authority even when it involved inflicting cruel punishment on an actor. Of course some required different self-justification to others, but the net conclusion is that obedience is a stronger impulse than moral codes of conduct. The reason for this is that humans are group-animals, desiring approval from others rather than risking their own judgment. Professor Maule at Leeds University says that a major reason why people do not react on individual logic (e.g. when a smoke alarm goes off in a building) is peer-pressure. No-one desires to be the odd one out, thus our sense of “belonging” to a group overrides our sense of individuality. An experiment conducted in New York during the 1960s involved the subjects being led into a waiting room. They were waiting for an experiment to start, not realising that it had already begun. Smoke was passed under the door, and the time that it took for the subjects to react was recorded. In 75% of instances where there was only one person in the room, they left to report it. When accompanied by actors instructed to ignore the smoke, only 10% left the room in a sensible period of time. Once again, the fear of being the “odd one out” or of being ostracised overrides our individual “recognition-mechanism”. Although humans naturally desire approval, it is the individual’s responsibility to ascertain WHICH values are worth approving, thus SHARING. There is no meaning in belonging to a group which one recognises as “worth belonging to”, if no-one in the group uses their own recognition! *** This is why it is hard to get people to accept that ahadith are actually not part of what Islam is meant to be (regardless of anything). Hence they do not choose a more direct approach by learning the Qur'an and "controlling" it through understanding it. As concluded, it is not the morality of Sunnis which is the problem. It is actually the Institution (to which people feel they must belong). People who use "bad hadith teachings" as their weapon will make very limited progress. This is also why many people will choose not to have an opinion on this topic, even if they are against the hadith-teachings. It is why people do not go against what has remained the status quo (for a "long time").
Re: DO you agree with The Cat?
Hi MesMorial...
FFI members defending tooth and nail the integrity of the hadiths have been quite a surprise to me. This self-defeating position by which they attack on one hand what they legitimatize on the other, for the sake of portraying Muhammad as a criminal, would have worked centuries ago if effective.
How self-contradictory! He argues for their authenticity while being afraid that muslims take them as valid sources! As if that wasn't already the Sunnite's entrenched belief, which his position arbitrarily trolls and parrots in support. SNB's position is a loosing streak right from inception. Mine is to state that Muhammad never had much authority by himself and, since that is most obviously confirmed within the Koran, then... the whole edifice built by the Islamic Pharisees crumbles down as having no Islamic legal ground at all. That takes care of 95% of the nowadays dreadful Sharia and it's a wonder how they'll deal with the remaining 5%! Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.
Re: DO you agree with The Cat?
I said above that I was not sure. That post was made by me almost an year ago. A good deal of time has passed for me to change my opinions. Now I am of the opinion that proving Muhammad as a criminal is the best form of attack on islam. Thanks for proving that you are no longer a friend of FFI . You are here to promote quran . By now everyone must have observed this. Btw if I am to dig out a few of your posts I will need a separate thread to show how absolutely stupid you are. Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.
Re: DO you agree with The Cat?
Wrong Premise: A troll will likely be the one who keeps on accusing the other of trolling, so introducing Ad Hominem fallacies in order to attack the person when arguments have failed. False Dilemma: Constant accusation of trolling is itself... trolling, by its very definition: viewtopic.php?p=167663#p167663 Hasty Generalization: I do not have 'fans' but people interested in scholarship and history, both fields in which you're a total ignoramus, trying hard to hide it in smokescreen waffles.
Only usual fallacies, argumentum ad populum and poisoning the well, what else? In the meantime your position is self-defeating as you endorse the hadiths' authenticity. Your approach didn't work then nor will it work now... Manuel II Palaiologos (in 1392): "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached".  Now prove that I'm only here to promote quran or stand as an abject, compulsive, liar... viewtopic.php?p=130980#p130980 Then you meant massive stupidity like these from you (in Muhammad, Myth vs Reality)?
Yet what he has gathered therein was aggravated repetitions... of the same mistakes! Thoroughly debunked in my answers to such a spamming thread in RC: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=10680 All legal hadiths, as per the Sharia, are nullified by one Koranic verse: 16.116: And speak not, concerning that which your own tongues qualify (as clean or unclean), the falsehood: "This is lawful, and this is forbidden," so that ye invent a lie against Allah. Last edited by The Cat on Wed Dec 07, 2011 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.
Re: DO you agree with The Cat?
 I derive the inspiration to write a book on the psychology of trolls . You are such an inspiration and an example.Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.
Re: DO you agree with The Cat?
Hadiths portray Muhammad as a religious emancipator, a mosaical liberator. They also portray the prophet as a miraculous wise sayer, much like Jesus. By acknowledging the hadiths' legitimacy you do endorse the Muhammadans' right to pedophilia, to genitally mutilate kids, child-bride marriage and stoning to death. viewtopic.php?p=130980#p130980 For, through the hadiths, Muhammad becomes a law-carrier which laws you endorse. What you really say to them is: I despise your laws but they are legitimated anyhow! That's the REAL outcome of your 'logic'!!! Prove me wrong on this or stand as an abject person. Now, do you think that by proving Moses a criminal you'd overthrow Judaism in a glimpse? Jesus was crucified as a criminal too. Did it stop his teachings to reach far and abroad? The Christians were so persecuted as 'criminals'. Did it stop Christianity from spreading? I've explained my position, compared to your self-defeating one, many times: viewtopic.php?p=166819#p166819 viewtopic.php?p=168528#p168528 Then prove, as I've asked, that I'm only here to promote quran or stand as a deluded, compulsive, liar... viewtopic.php?p=130980#p130980 viewtopic.php?p=130998#p130998 viewtopic.php?p=168709#p168709 viewtopic.php?p=168992#p168992 Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.
Re: DO you agree with The Cat?
This is for sensible people so CAT is naturally excluded from it . Actually I don't need to prove that this idiot is here to promote quran. Anyone who has been following our conversations can easily see that and it is as clear as daylight. Secondly if this person was here to reform islam then the same person would not go on to defend the scientific errors in the quran like FLAT EARTH . The quran claims that earth is flat however this person kept arguing for pages and pages defending the quran and claimed that quran never said EARTH IS flat. A person who is not interested in promoting quran would never bother to argue whether quran is scientifically correct or not. The third example is this person also defended the compilation of quran for 15 pages. No sane person who thinks quran is a false book would do that. Quran was obviously not collected properly . Why would a person who is not interested in promoting quran do that? I guess I dont have to say anything more.A person who claims that quran is on our side cannot claim that he never promoted the quran. That is a laughable statement. In case this TROLL claims that he never said that quran is with us, I will present proof here.
viewtopic.php?p=131600#p131600 Now there is no disagreement in the kafir world that nowadays islam is evil but according to this TROLL Koran is against it . SO what conclusion are people drawing from this? So Is quran really against the nowadays islam or is quran also a part of nowadays islam? IF this person says that Quran is on our side and is against nowadays islam it means quran is a clean book ! One might argue that he did not intend to mean what I just said above but still it leaves a lot of questions unanswered. Why in the world would person who knows that quran is an evil book claim that Quran is against nowadays islam? All I can say is that this person is a bastard and a lying fraud and he is trying throw dust into everyone's eyes to cover up this tracks. Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.
Re: DO you agree with The Cat?
More ever he also claims that Sira and ahadith cannot give us a coherent image of Muhammad So what does this mean ? IT means that this idiot wants to tell us that Muhammad was not a criminal. All one has to do is infer from his statements. Quran is against nowadays islam and Muhammad was a not a criminal . What does that tell us ? Does it really tells us that he is against the quran?
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.
Re: DO you agree with The Cat?
When attacking the Koran from wrong premises you simply put yourself out of the way. The Koran doesn't say that the earth is flat and His Senility has been debunked over this. viewtopic.php?p=162553#p162553 viewtopic.php?p=163017#p163017
No hadith can be religiously authoritative because: 1) The Koran states so (4.87; 6.57; 7.185; 12.111; 31.6; 45.6; 77.50) 2) The only Sunna is that of Allah (17.77; 33.62; 35.43; 48.23) 3) Muhammad interdicted to write them down and they were so burned by all former caliphs. 4) History proves that this has been respected for around TWO centuries. 5) The multi-corroborated hadiths (mutawatir/tawatur) are but a pocketful, if any. 6) The Power of Intercession is for Allah alone (2.48; 2.123; 6.51; 6.94; 32.4, etc) 7) The Shariah is solely that of Allah (5.48; 42.13). Tell me how all the above doesn't disqualify nowadays Islam/Sharia, relying for 95% on the hadiths?
First, this ain't solely my claim, but that of most scholars such as Win Raven and Harald Motzki... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirat_Rasu ... usefulness http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Muhammad The Koran itself states that he erred, sinned, a depraved fellow ('Dallaan' 93.7). It never ever gives him the title of Imam as with others (2.124; 21.73; 46.12). It also condemns stealing. And this guy should be an all-time example according to WHAT???? Again, you give legitimacy to something you otherwise attack. That's a self-defeating 'logic'. That's delusive for the Sunnites and, most unfortunately, for some members here.
So, according to this self-defeating, flat 'logic' of yours, Muhammadans can laugh at FFI all the way to their mosques. From all the above demonstrations you have shown yourself to be a deluded, compulsive liar (at best). I'm here to give FFI some credibility. You do the opposite... Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.
Re: DO you agree with The Cat?
Yap That guy Muhammad was chameleon, A sleaze ball and a cunning character could be a nut case The Cat..
Re: DO you agree with The Cat?
Why an earth would you throw the Hadiths out of the window entirely? That is just crazy. The historian should use all the materials at his disposal and evaluate each one based on the evidence within, how much it correlates with the other sources, and identifying what the potential biases that might exist with the creators. But no source should ever be thrown out the window entirely unless the accounts totally contradict the rest of the body of evidence which can be proven to be more reliable.
All early Islamic sources are propoganda to a certain extent as all of them exaggerate the heroics and nobility of the early Muslims and emphasize the savagery and barbarity of their opponents when they can. But the biggest piece of propoganda is the Koran itself. The Koran is how Muhammad himself wanted to be remembered, not as other people actually remembered him. The Hadiths are how Muhammad's closest friends remembered him. The Koran is therefore the most suspect of all the sources. I am not saying that the Koran is not a good source, there is obviously a lot of useful information in it about how Muhammad thought, how he justified his actions, and the kind of society he wanted to create. But it says very little about the way he went about creating that society. To rely on the Koran alone as a source of information on the early development of Islam is like rellying on the BP Oil companies official press releases alone when studying the BP Oil Spill.
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